Ultimately for me it comes back to one of 2 things:
Multiple classes on same character (like XI or XIV) in place of Progeny. This would more easily and less confusingly (if not as immersively) take care of the intent of progeny system.
Have the progeny system as elaborate as you like, but dont block content from us unless its purely cosmetic, and ballance any power gains with an AA system that is tied together with the Progeny system. I have proposed it before but some kind of point system:
Over-simplified example.
20 total points. (pulled it out of thin air)
Each point can be used for a progeny perk or and AAs (some cost less and some are more).
AAs could be more alterations to existing skills (DoT lasts 5 more seconds, Nuke costs 7% less mana, etc)
Progeny Perks could be more pulling passives, abilities, weapon proficiency from the parent (25% more resistence to silence, a one time spell or ability purchase, give your Wizard sword skill)
You can use all on one or the other, but there are only 20 points shared between them.
This offers an alternative for those that dont want a bunch of alts, and even allows for mixing and matching for those that want some of both. Would just need to balance so that both were attractive and relatively equal.
Some background to show how my point of view is determined.
We were "just" old enough to navigate paludal caverns form shadowhaven and come out at shadeweavers thicket. From there the long road (or swim if you didnt want to get bothered by wanderers) to Shar Vhal. This new Vah comes running up and begging and pleading for us to escort it to Felwithe. I mean annoyingly begging. We knew this was impossible, even with invis, this new vah would get one shotted, we tried but could not get outof shadeweavers and this new vah kept yammering on how to get to the nexus THE NEXUS!. And we were like, sorry, you are too young. I said, this is your home town, learn it and exp up the way the game dictates that you do, based on your race/startingcity, you might become better at somethings than if you say, started in erudin- battle-wise (like dodging or stabbing or clubbing). The vah did not want to hear it, got angry and huffed off.
So my P.O.V is , you start here, you deal with it. Blind at night? too bad, part of the way it is. No newbie armor quests? (Erudin) too bad, that's he way it is, deal with it. There must be a good reason why newbie armor quests are in fellwithe, and not in Erudin, so be it. Maybe something to do with training the mind or whatnot. Nice easy newbie yard for the evils?(Paineel) and only 10 levels above you sharks in the docs, or sparse monsters in Tox? It is what it is.(Heh i got really good at dodge)
So from a progeny perspective- I understand the concept is to keep the player playing the same game. Instead of maxxing a character and then geting bored, maybe through a progeny system a way to re-experience the game again as a newbie- like waking up in Shar Vahl and dealing with the local environs, learning the area- like you started the game new. This would depend on having cities very far away from each other so the progenyr would maybe never see where they had traveled on their first character nor ever meet the same friends again.
I like the hybrid character idea but I think it may be impractical.
In order to experience the game anew- force the progeny to choose an opposite race and class and dealing with it. Learn how the other half lives kind of thing. You were a good mage twittering in the back about fashion while grouping with friends and casting and generally letting it all happen? if you progenize, now you are a Evil warrior finding yourself offended by the NPC's you used to call friends! and the fight is in your face all the time! and you got to keep going because you got to MAKE it happen for the group.
So maybe a solution is to progenize a direct opposite: race, class, allignment...deity (if you had no deity), sex?
There might be a unique questline for the progenitor like an epic quest for a rare memento or other half of a locket. The progeny may "inherit" a small charm- with no stats but gradually reveals its benefit as the progeny levels up- with a hidden ..skill?...that only comes through as the progeny levels. Imagine an enchanter- with taunt. A Mage, that can kick, a rogue that could bash, a warrior that could hide.
These al might be game changers maybe something more like- oh that one cleric spell that would auto-rez you if you died? or maybe a DA type effect if your health went down to 5%? but it had a 1 in RNG * 1,000 chance to trigger.I forget what it was. - Kind of like the righteousness card in MtG- always a big suprise when played, something with rare "whoah!" factor.
As long as there is an in-game way for players who wish to keep one character to gain the exact same or equitably comparable abilities/boons that progency characters gain, then I would be more okay with this system, but still hesitant. I don't like the idea of my character having children (not very aligned with the personalities and backgrounds I create for them) and I like having "unrelated" alts. I don't necessarily want my alts to know my main character.
And that's my issue with the progeny system.. it closes narrative flexibility and imagination no matter whether it's an actual child through procreation or through magical inheritance (adopted child/trained by the main character, whatever). It's forcing a background, a narrative, rather than allowing me to bring forth an alt with a story of my choosing within the game world. For me, that's a big no-no for RPG type games.
I think there needs to be alt incentivizing where the bonuses are behind-the-scenes to the characters' knowledge, and where all characters on that account receive the same bonus with the creation of an alt that meets whatever requirements are put in place to receive the bonus. Not just a bonus for the alt itself.
I'd love to have this feature in the game. Here is a segment of a post I made in another thread on this topic.
It would be so immersive if reincarnation/retirement was tied to the faction level of your deity. Remember when Drizzt saw Mielikki's Unicorn? I'd love it if there was a series of faction quests (available at various levels) that had to be completed to gain the favor of my deity, before I could do a reincarnation/retirement... Here is my fantasy... You can reincarnate/retire with each deity one time. After you've reincarnated/retired with every deity, another series of quests allow you to become a new, unique, race that has a special racial. (ie: a small Ent, a brownie, a goblin) There is a catch though. The catch is you go back to the base stats of a starter character and loose all of the stat increases of the previous reincarnations/retirements. That new character can start the process of reincarnation/retirement all over if he/she wanted to. (ie:one reincarnation/retirement with each diety). Make it so there were new race options that opened up each time you went through the process. It would also placate people's fears about reincarnation/retirement becoming a mechanism that would create gods among insects.
Brads goals are met the following system:
(I think this sounds awesome)
Character1 accomplishes 'end game task/quest/trial' and is then eligable for progeny.
Character2(progeny character) is created. Character1 is never locked/unplayable. Character2 is given a permanent ~10% buff and cap increase for two of the following (STR, STA, AGI, INT, WIS, CHA). [Think EQ1 heroic stats]
-Example: this means character2 might start with 11 STR instead of 10 STR. At endgame, their STR cap would be 280 instead of 255.
Character2 reaches 'end-game' and may complete the same 'end game task/quest/trial'.
The player now has options as reward:
Option 1: Character2's two Progeny stats may be transfered from character2 to character1, and a new progeny character3 may be created with a different progeny stat buff selection for two stats (STR, STA, AGI, INT, WIS, CHA). Note: once character1 receives a progeny transfer, they must pay XXX in-game currency to wipe progeny buffs and be eligable for a new transfer.
Option 2: A new progeny character3 may be created with three progeny stat buffs selected (STR, STA, AGI, INT, WIS, CHA), character2 maintains originally selected two progeny buffs. Note: character2 must pay XXX in-game currency to wipe progeny buffs and be eligable for a progeny buff transfer.
If Option 2 is selected, your characters look like this:
Character1 = no progeny buffs
Character2 = two stats progeny buffed
Character3 = three stats progeny buffed
Now.. Character 3(progeny character) may complete the same 'end game task/quest/trial' and recieve the following options:
Option 1: Character3's three Progeny stats may be transfered from character3 to any character without active progeny buffs who also completed 'end game task/quest/trial', and a new progeny character4 may be created with a different progeny stat buff selection for two stats (STR, STA, AGI, INT, WIS, CHA). For a character already with progeny buffs, that character must must pay XXX in game curency to wipe progeny buffs and be eligable for a new transfer.
Option 2: A new progeny character4 may be created with four progeny stat buffs selected (STR, STA, AGI, INT, WIS, CHA), character3 maintains originally selected (3) progeny buffs.
etc etc.
@Defector
Thats some serious stat bloat there.
If characters gain anything it should really stay cosmetic or at the very least be in the form of horizontal progression. Though I cant imagine cosmetic being very good at encouraging the system. Horizontal progression would work , which is why I suggested the what XI and XIV do with multiple classes on one character. But really any horizontal progression would work, as long as it doesnt blur the lines too badly in terms of class uniqueness.
@Amsai
Its really not much stat bloat.. think 1 STA = ~20 hp. With a 25 STA higher cap, you have 500 more hp at max level. Bare in mind, at max level the nakid character might have 5k hp from STA alone and another 3k hp from items. So with progeny you get 500 hp on top of 8,000 hp.. 500/8500.. thats only 6% more hp. Thats one hit. Or if it was INT = Mana thats one cast..
And it took you leveling two characters to a very high level to complete. Hardly OP, but very nice.
It would take an EXTRAORDINARY benefit for me to even consider killing off my main to start a new character. And to be honest, if the benefit were so extraordinary that you felt compelled to need to do it in order to be advanced then it may turn me off enough to just completely quit the game. Frankly, this is the most off-putting "feature" of the game that I have read about so far, and I find myself quietly hoping they just drop it altogether.
Ezumin said:I'd love to have this feature in the game. Here is a segment of a post I made in another thread on this topic.
It would be so immersive if reincarnation/retirement was tied to the faction level of your deity. Remember when Drizzt saw Mielikki's Unicorn? I'd love it if there was a series of faction quests (available at various levels) that had to be completed to gain the favor of my deity, before I could do a reincarnation/retirement... Here is my fantasy... You can reincarnate/retire with each deity one time. After you've reincarnated/retired with every deity, another series of quests allow you to become a new, unique, race that has a special racial. (ie: a small Ent, a brownie, a goblin) There is a catch though. The catch is you go back to the base stats of a starter character and loose all of the stat increases of the previous reincarnations/retirements. That new character can start the process of reincarnation/retirement all over if he/she wanted to. (ie:one reincarnation/retirement with each diety). Make it so there were new race options that opened up each time you went through the process. It would also placate people's fears about reincarnation/retirement becoming a mechanism that would create gods among insects.
Ezumin, This idea is neat! The way I see it is it has the potential to solve 2 problems. 1. NPC AI and obliquely 2. satisfy the - I am not sure how to express it correctly but the basic game mechanism of thwarting the opponent, like landing on them in backgammon and making them start over, Flipping to your color advantage like in Go.
1.. If after completing all the in game character Progenies- you then branch out to the NPC's like goblins, orcs, what is available- you become the AI for the Monster.
2. Come back as a froglock and see that same person farming the FBSS? as they clear you can "roam" in and smack the chanter. As a Pickclaw goblin you would also have to level up and how? fighting other goblins for no facion hit or even newbie PC's (only yellow) as a part of normal game play.
The grouping would have to be limited to two, and you would only have a limited selection of who to group with depending on who also progenised into that NPC race. Train to zone? You're the train. You can either walk blindly through your dungeon avoiding the PC's or decide to "roam" or "Bad pathing" to their camp. Of course you risk the possibility of getting killed, even "pulled" (fear mechanic, in reverse). There may have to be boundry limits or level restrictions to avoid complete griefing, but its not PVP *wink*. Veteran players after so many years may welcome the opportunity to log in, in their dungeon as a "roamer" that high leveled roamer, with the ability to select one piece of loot from a database as their weapon/gear to use and should they be killed. Maybe a 2 day respawn timer in that dungeon, but if you die you can respawn in another area as same type, away from the dungeon you were in. People would know there was something odd about that minatoaur- but they would not know who....
Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
First I'll start off with my old post
Searril said:It would take an EXTRAORDINARY benefit for me to even consider killing off my main to start a new character. And to be honest, if the benefit were so extraordinary that you felt compelled to need to do it in order to be advanced then it may turn me off enough to just completely quit the game. Frankly, this is the most off-putting "feature" of the game that I have read about so far, and I find myself quietly hoping they just drop it altogether.
Agreed. I think there are better ways to incentivize alt creation than a buff that people will inevitably feel pressure towards pursuing. Also, as I've mentioned, doing so in a way that closes player chosen narrative/backstory beyond the normal constraints of the world's lore is a dissatisfying concept.
Or perhaps just forgo the concept all-together? If Pantheon's aim is to bring back the feeling of unique identity and specialized strengths for both adventuring and crafting classes, then there is already inherent incentive for alt creation. More so given different races and starting locations.
@Pyde
Stat increases are by default at the very least game-changing. They have explicit consequences in combat, and will inevitably cause pioritization of progeny characters, bring implicit pressures on players who don't feel they have the time to create progeny characters, and in the very worst of instances will even marginalize those non-progeny players. Even increases such as 2%, 5%, or 10% can have quite noticeable effects. Any stat buffs/boons or other perks at all isn't really practical. It's a neat concept, but I think in the end will have unintended consequences despite the best efforts to mitigate and reduce those negative consequences.
Sicario said:@Pyde
Stat increases are by default at the very least game-changing. They have explicit consequences in combat, and will inevitably cause pioritization of progeny characters, bring implicit pressures on players who don't feel they have the time to create progeny characters, and in the very worst of instances will even marginalize those non-progeny players. Even increases such as 2%, 5%, or 10% can have quite noticeable effects. Any stat buffs/boons or other perks at all isn't really practical. It's a neat concept, but I think in the end will have unintended consequences despite the best efforts to mitigate and reduce those negative consequences.
I still think the Progeny System is an excellent idea. I'm just not sure as to why everyone thinks its going to break the game. But right now its all specualation anyways.
P.S. Sicario Thanks for your post. It's nice to hear all sides.
Pyde said:P.S. Sicario Thanks for your post. It's nice to hear all sides.
Absolutely, Pyde! That's what these forums should be for, discussing opinions and exploring what everyone has to say in a healthy manner. In the end, we all want this game to be great. I certainly appreciate being able to read your opinions as well.
I think it would be amazing to level a character and have it be, forgive me, like the first Avatar, where subsequent reincarnations will gain the knowledge of their previous lives, once they achieve sufficient training. In this case, I think that it could work like this:
Make Character 1, a warrior, then level up to 50. Do Progeny quest. Sacrifice one's self for the next reincarnation.
Make Progeny Character, a Shaman, then level up to 50. Do Progeny quest, with a new option. Do the first option and go directly into making a new Progeny character or choose the new option, the Epic Soul quest, which is to unlock the previous character's class by joining their spirit to yours. You obtain their gear from the quest somehow; gifted by the spirit; found where they died; in a chest; buried in a crypt; whatever. Once you've done this, you may now switch between classes (not in battle) and will need to switch gear.
The player may choose to make a new Progeny character at the cost of killing their current Progeny character at any time in order to level up a new soul. Diametrically opposed classes will not be able to share an Epic Soul, so no Paladin/Necros or stuff like that.
Only three souls can be joined in this way, so a new character must be started to start the process again. Choose carefully!
Nasotha said:I think it would be amazing to level a character and have it be, forgive me, like the first Avatar, where subsequent reincarnations will gain the knowledge of their previous lives, once they achieve sufficient training. In this case, I think that it could work like this:
Make Character 1, a warrior, then level up to 50. Do Progeny quest. Sacrifice one's self for the next reincarnation.
Make Progeny Character, a Shaman, then level up to 50. Do Progeny quest, with a new option. Do the first option and go directly into making a new Progeny character or choose the new option, the Epic Soul quest, which is to unlock the previous character's class by joining their spirit to yours. You obtain their gear from the quest somehow; gifted by the spirit; found where they died; in a chest; buried in a crypt; whatever. Once you've done this, you may now switch between classes (not in battle) and will need to switch gear.
The player may choose to make a new Progeny character at the cost of killing their current Progeny character at any time in order to level up a new soul. Diametrically opposed classes will not be able to share an Epic Soul, so no Paladin/Necros or stuff like that.
Only three souls can be joined in this way, so a new character must be started to start the process again. Choose carefully!
Intriguing idea. This would not actually give any stat boost to the new character but allow for alt swapping on the same character, sort of a version of what Final Fantasy 14 uses, where one character can switch class(job) at will (out of combat and out of dungeon). More a form of alt convenience than any kind of increased power. But it might be somewhat challenging for inventory management, unless there is increased inventory space involved in gaining the second class.
What I'm not sure about, however, is whether that's going to give enough incentive for players to use the system.
Progeny (with the limited information on it atm) suggests that characters can age. Purely from a game world perspective, it doesn't make sense for my progeny to group and adventure with all my friends (their parents' generation), who do not age in-game.
If a progeny system is available, I would be tempted to use it (because I want to experience as much of the game as possible)... and I would find it very hard to 'retire' any of my characters and not be bitter at myself about it.
I would much rather have a system that allows me to keep my character and allow him / her to develop further. Maybe if the system was presented differently to still achieve the same outcome that the devs want?
Searril said:It would take an EXTRAORDINARY benefit for me to even consider killing off my main to start a new character. And to be honest, if the benefit were so extraordinary that you felt compelled to need to do it in order to be advanced then it may turn me off enough to just completely quit the game. Frankly, this is the most off-putting "feature" of the game that I have read about so far, and I find myself quietly hoping they just drop it altogether.
I feel the same way. The teddy bear reward for BO3 Zombies prestige can eat my goat cheese.
P.S.: I don't own any goats.
ZeroGravitas said:Intriguing idea. This would not actually give any stat boost to the new character but allow for alt swapping on the same character, sort of a version of what Final Fantasy 14 uses, where one character can switch class(job) at will (out of combat and out of dungeon). More a form of alt convenience than any kind of increased power. But it might be somewhat challenging for inventory management, unless there is increased inventory space involved in gaining the second class.
What I'm not sure about, however, is whether that's going to give enough incentive for players to use the system.
If more incentive than that is needed, then maybe an ability or three of the other class can be chosen through the final quest. That would mean hybrids could be created. I dunno about a tank that could CH and haste themselves, though.
How about being able to not only switch your class to that of one of your old selves at max level, but also being able to summon one of them to fight by your side throughout your Progeny leveling for five real life minutes every game day? The entity would be the same level as you when summoned, so it's kind of a limited buff, really.
Or first progeny assigned (you pick race and class) as an achievement ..after that getting progeny becomes more difficult..(I create alts according to starting areas I want to experience it all that probably won't change, they are also used for crafting and harvesting..that won't change either) Progeny character would be some sort of bonus...WITHOUT losing my hard won main character.
I feel the progeny system would be best implemented as completely optional, even for min-maxxers. This needs not be a system that either everyone does or everyone does not do, and people who want their original characters should be able to keep them, and make alts, with a clear conciense.
Any system that gives people actual end game, long lasting benefits, causes many people, especially the raiders of the most challenging content, to feel they HAVE to do it to compete. If it causes them to do new stuff then great!.. But when it comes to progeny and leveling up all over again; these competitors would be much more likely to just want levels as fast as possible, taking advantage of whatever repetative content they can. To me this does not sound very fun, nor would it be very helpful to the local noobs.
Instead, The progeny system could just be a way to make your next character easier or more unique to level- so long as you are willing to give up your main toon. You lose something that doesnt mess up balance, and you gain something that doesn't mess up balance. For Progeny:
I feel progeny should be a method to bring more fun seekers-and only fun seekers- to the lower levels. They might want to experience new low level content that came out with the new high lvl content, they might want to try a new class or race, or they might want to just do it all over again and maybe show off-be it for a friend or themselves. Trying to fix too much with Progeny will just, in my opinion, make it actually detract from the experience of first timers. Lets have Progeny as an equal, and unique, alternative to making alts and leave it at that.
P.S. I respectfully disagree with not letting progeny be new classes. It alienates people who would be happy to take advantage of the system to try something new. In fact, if you let Progeny be a completely different race, to further allow players to populate low level areas for fun...I'd be willing to look the other way from reality for a bit.
I'd really there rather not be a system like this. We don't know much, but I'm hugely skeptical. Here's what I do know: I was not a big fan of the seemingly very similar Reincarnation system in DDO. I am most comfortable staying in the max level raiding scene. But that's just what I was raised on. I feel like VR came up with Progeny in order to maintain a good player population at all level ranges, rather than eventually becoming top-heavy. But I highly doubt that this will solve the problem. And regardless, the tendency is probably always going to be to just zerg back up to the top and do it all over again to keep racking up the bonuses, and that just does not sound like a healthy type of gameplay. I sincerely hope that a culture does not arise in which you are viewed as inferior if you do not partake in the Progeny system. I think NOT having a "completionist" achievement for reaching max level in every class on a character will help this. There will probably be some classes that I would just rather not play and I don't want to feel like I have to spend many miserable hours on a particular class I just don't like in order to get a must-have achievement. I'd much rather stick to one class and be really, really good at that one class, especially when it comes to raids. There needs to be a way to motivate Progeny fans to invest their time in it while also not pressuring those that just don't want to. I think that will be very difficult, but I'm trying to keep an open mind.
Edit: If I want to experience the game from min level again, WHY NOT JUST ROLL A NEW ALT!? That's like the entire point of alts. That way I don't need to essentially delete all that hard work just to get a small bonus to the next life. That said, I'd MUCH rather have Progeny than multi-classing. I've seen some people suggest this. Just no. I'm like 99% sure Pantheon won't have multi-classing. And I'm grateful for that, because that's the fastest way to make me lose interest in a game.