Jimmayus said:...That's one of the reasons I harp on about AA-retainment and pre-flagging systems...
...Seems to me like Progeny is a reward system designed to make it easier for people to reroll characters they're bored with without making an alt. Why not structure the rewards to fit that?...
...You just cannot handwaive "levelling 5 times" to get benefits as if that's some non-issue. It is a big deal, especially when there is a whole realm of content designed around higher level characters...
To the first quote: I believe that AA-retainment and pre-flagging systems do indeed make sense, but this is not exclusive to any one progeny mechanic and can be added to any progeny system. Having time spent post max level should indeed have a persistent value regardless of whether you choose to take part in the progeny system or not. However, I would find it hard to believe that the rest of your suggested mechanic holds weight: that a cosmetic portrait change is enough to incentivize use of this system.
To the second: This is an important assumption you are making and if it's not true, then that drastically changes the conclusions that you've come to. It is clear that you have aimed your suggestions to improve the existing phenomenon of alt-making (and your suggestions would do well at this task in my opinion), but this isn't necessarily the goal. For me, I would like to see a progeny mechanic that extends the scope of the game.
To the third: You seem to presume that leveling a character is an undesirable chore forced upon you. If this were the case, then why seek to make a progeny system at all? I would like to believe that the developers are trying to enact a progeny system so that players are able to level again and to benefit from that play time, not so that they have to. My suggested mechanic (as with yours) intentionally avoided any feature that would force players to take part in the progeny system. My suggestion did this by primarily making the benefit come from harvesting materials with retired characters. Any player not seeking to partake in the progeny system could simply buy the materials just in the way that crafting works in most MMOs.
I actually think a lot of what you've said makes sense and are good ideas, but they're heavily based on the idea that you're forcing yourself to push through content that isn't inherently worthwhile in order to get a reward you want. If that's the starting point, then it seems like development time best be spent elsewhere.
Cosmetic Portrait change is just a throwaway example idea of non-player power related rewards gated behind participation in the progeny system. You could throw in all the bells and whistles you want, modern mmo players love that stuff.
Yes it is a presumption, but it goes deeper than superficial alt levelling. Think about what we know about the system: "retire" a character to level a new one with some undescribed bonus. We have no idea if retirement is permanent, but general usage allows us to presume it is permanent. Think about what that means for a second. In old style mmos this means you would be giving up:
And for what? So you can level up a new character to go through fundamentally the same steps? The only way you're "extending the scope of the game" that sees itself as a spiritual successor to EQ/VG is by essentially requiring people to make alts. That's why the things I'm advocating for need to be at the baseline of such a system: if you're supposed to give up your max level character to level a new character so you can participate in the game then you need to at least mitigate the effects of retirement by making the re-levelling process as smooth as possible.
I went back and reread your initial proposition. I initially assumed by "inherited dwarven frost resistance" you meant above and beyond some cap on a normal character. If that is not the case then I still dislike your suggestion but for different reasons, to wit I don't see the difference between your suggestion and just making a new character. If there is no player power behind the system then who cares if I get a "small amount of frost resistance" if I can just get it from levelling up a new character through not participating in your system. You would literally be creating something dead on arrival.
Why does the character even need to be retired at all? Why not simply treat it as one treats progeny in real life. In other words: why not allow a new character to have your same surname and inherit a small subset of learned crafting recipes, AA points, quest unlocks or dungeon keys, etc.? I don't see why this isn't a system that makes more sense. I would use that **** all the time to make alts because I could skip some of the tedious process of rekeying a character.
I just don't see how you make retiring characters appealing without addressing obvious issues.
To your question of why a character needs to be retired at all. If you aren't giving up anything, then you shouldn't get anything. Of course you would use the system you just presented all the time, because it has no cost associated with it.
Is your stance that the progeny system is inherently flawed and that the only beneficial thing to do is smooth out the edges? Most of what you propose seems to be watering down the cost and watering down the benefit.
You keep drawing the hard line that any benefits provided to the character result in "requiring" people to make alts, but this just isn't true. Take for example that a (non-progeny) dwarven character has a racial bonus of +20 frost resist and a (non-progeny) gnome has +20 anaerobic resist. If the progeny system gives a second character +20 frost resist and +20 anaerobic resist, then that is a tangible benefit that does not inherently result in a game imbalance. On any individual piece of content you will have some characters with +0 natural resist to that type and some with +20.
If you believe that giving up a character is an unmanagable cost that can only be balanced by hefty rewards that will imbalance the game, then there's no arguing with that and I'll leave it be.
I honestly do believe that my suggestion would extend the scope of the game by allowing retired characters to group and play pre-max content for real rewards. I don't believe that it in any way requires folks to take part in the system.
Why does participating in any system have to have an associated cost? The "cost" of their climate system is that you have to acclimatize to it. If we want to use such a definition of cost we can say that participating in the progeny system requires levelling a new character.
Your example is the exact problem people are highlighting. If that 20 frost resist is a useful number (say it's 20% of frost damage resisted) then that is absolutely game breaking when propagated to multiple generations. Perhaps you can only have your immediate parent's native racial? It funcitonally mandates every player serious about their character level twice or suffer the consequence of being objectively, materially inferior forever. If 20 frost resist is not useful (say that 20 frost resist functions as a 1% damage reduction or less) then the incentive is functionally superfluous and almost nobody will bother with it because you'd have to sacrifice a character you had already spent literal months levelling. Because of the MMO player's approach to min-maxing this will always be the case based on community perception, one extreme or the other. Edit: I'd actually be willing to argue that even a 1% reduction in frost damage might be considered mandatory still.
I don't see how my so-called rewards are in any way unbalancing. If you can obtain AA points and then start with a fraction of them already earned on a new character, the end result is that either character would have max AAs but the new character had an easier time levelling up. It actually rewards participating in the endgame on an old character.
The problem is the speculation is that an "offspring" character has access to benefits not otherwise available to original characters. If the system means to just allow you to carry over some subset of skills that any character can get, what's the point? Fast-tracking a new character to some small degree by sacrificing another? Fine. I'm perfectly good with that. I wont participate because i'll just start a new character so that I have the option to go back to the original at some later date. I wouldnt argue with that system. But if the intent is that in order to reach the real true cap of frost resist by retiring characters, no. I'm flat out against that for a myriad of reasons.
A thing that concerns me which I've discussed in other threads is how this scales with expansion releases?
If this is a system meant to provide replayability, I can respect it. However it's fairly obvious to me at least that it means also to create a time investement for those that reach cap level. They are provided a carrot to replay on a new character in order to consume time until more content is released. So how does that work for the third expansion? The fourth? The fifth?
Lets say I'm the audience to which this kind of system appears to be targeted; a power-leveling type-A personality. I shelve my capped level 50 necromancer to start a new character. I take whatever carrot offered me to do so, and I start a ranger. Who I then cap at 50 and start a druid. Is three the max times I can Progeny? Lets assume so. Now the expansion comes out. I cap my ranger to the new level 60 limit and then... What? Is Progeny now a forever stagnate system for me unless I start a new character entirely at level 1 with no benefit? Or do I start a new necro at level 1 with no Progeny benefits so that I can experience the necro in the new content? Or is there another 1, 2 or more Progeny slots opened with the new expansion, from which I Progeny my druid to a level 1 necro which I cap to 60, then Progeny to a level 1 ranger to Progeny to 60?
Then the third expansion comes out...
What happens when a new player comes to the game after the 5th expansion? Is that person required to reach level 80 before they can Progeny the first time? Or can they use the benefits that always allow earlier content to be consumed faster (economy, gear upgrades, new spell lines, faster travel options, etc.) and crank thru 2 meaningless characters up to 50 to get the full Progeny benefits on the third and then start taking the 3rd character seriously? Or are they required to level to 70 or 80 or whatever the new cap is before Progeny becomes an option, 3 times? 6 times? However many times the Progeny cap has been raised thru expansions?
Regardless of the answers to these questions, the point is that throughout the process either you must replay a class that you actually like repeatedly from the start to gain the maximum benefits of that class, or there's little point in doing it at all if you actually like a class and choose to stick with it. Compound this for people that like to have a tank, a caster and a healer for flexibility or variety of gameplay. Must I play 9 characters to max just to get 3 I intended to achieve that are not considered sub-standard?
And back to the point about providing a subset of skills to a Progeny offspring, if that's all it is why must I retire a character to do so? Does a master swordsman only impart his wisdom to his child upon his death?
spyderoptik said:As a power gamer and min-maxer by nature (as is most of my guild), I can assure you we'll be doing everything we can to blast our members through the Progeny bonus(es) as rapidly as possible to catch people back up (if sacrificing a main is required) unless there is an AA system offering equal types of gains. If roster holes appear from any sort of system, you can be sure a focused effort will be dumped into rotating people through the bonuses.
I urge they release some information regarding an AA system soon as a counter-option to the Progeny system giving two different playstyles an alternate way to advance. One where you redo old content and one where you do level appropriate content. For some people it's more about meeting new people (old content:Progeny) and for others it's more about staying with people you know (level appropriate:AA).
I've already been in talks with officers and members in how we want to rotate people through a couple different Progeny mechanic scenarios should the bonuses be desirable. It's not going to be a lot of fun for truly new people with a pit crew following members to catch them back up. The new people aren't likely to get the same benefits (and likely don't want those benefits either). It's going to be worlds colliding likely more than what traditional PL of a friend or an alt would be when it comes to a guild member being raced back up with a pit crew attached. The resources available at a guild's disposal is more significant than one or two random people pushing somebody through levels.
I think this system could serve a playstyle that tends to play alts pretty well whereas an AA system would better serve those who rather stick to fewer characters. Both playstyles would then have options to advance their characters in ways that fit their playstyles (beyond levels/gear/etc).
Quite a bit about Progeny is speculation given how little specifics have been provided and that to my knowledge there's been no talk of an AA system as a different route for a different playstyle.
Your concern is very valid. I remember in EQOA I decided to change my race because of a better tank racial passive being available. My guild power leveled me to cap in less than a week.
Here is another scenario. When I first start playing the game, I purchase 2 accounts. I box a warrior/enchanter combo all the way to 50 ... Enchanter is used as a body for raiding and other forms of end-game progression while the Warrior is the "prodigal son" that will immediately start Progeny and receive around the clock (or as much as possible) pit crew assistance. This allows me to experience end-game content on my enchanter while simultaneously blowing through Progeny on the warrior. I don't spend any of my DKP on the enchanter, instead transferring all of that to my warrior for when he's ready to take over as the "prodigal son" meat shield tank of epic sauce.
This scenario is just an extreme raider's perspective on how the benefits of progeny can be utilized without having to "retire" an actual "main." The enchanter would be nothing more than a placeholder in the long-term vision ... a warm body that can fill an important slot in raids. I still get to learn the encounters, earn DKP, etc ... but the end-goal is to power level that warrior as many times as necessary to make him as strong as possible and eventually take over as the main tank for the guild.
There will always be a workaround. Personally, I would prefer if Progeny was just a way to unlock AA's. Once you get to level 50, you can unlock AA's on your Progeny character. Faction, access quests, etc, would all transfer to that Progeny. The key difference is that I wouldn't require people to permanently retire their main in order to participate in Progeny. I should be able to continue playing with my guild mates and trying to navigate through all of the new max-level content ... and during down time, I can switch to my Progeny and focus on outward progression. Allowing players to switch back and forth between the parent and progeny makes the concept infinitely more appealing to me, whether AA's are implemented or not.
Jimmayus said:...Your example is the exact problem people are highlighting. If that 20 frost resist is a useful number (say it's 20% of frost damage resisted) then that is absolutely game breaking when propagated to multiple generations. Perhaps you can only have your immediate parent's native racial? It funcitonally mandates every player serious about their character level twice or suffer the consequence of being objectively, materially inferior forever...
...I don't see how my so-called rewards are in any way unbalancing. If you can obtain AA points and then start with a fraction of them already earned on a new character, the end result is that either character would have max AAs but the new character had an easier time levelling up. It actually rewards participating in the endgame on an old character.
I think it's important to recognize that the issue you're arguing against isn't just the progeny system specifically, but any benefits that can only be overcome through unreasonable amounts of work. It has become a tradition in MMOs that our gameplay consist of finding out what the best things are and then working to achieve or aquire them. If the progeny are granted better anything, then utilizing the progeny system gets put on the list of things that must be done by any competitive player. If it is possible for the community to establish a list of the best attributes, items, choices, etc., and it is found that those features are achievable with a reasonable amount of work, then it will be expected that members of the community work to complete the list. However, this is not as it has to be. If Pantheon includes enough lofty goals such that there is no accepted standard list of "reasonably achievable expected stats/items/benefits", then the social dynamic might change and allow people to not feel forced to complete the lofty list in record time. I got the impression (although I could certainly be wrong) that this was the direction that VR wanted to head in and I chose my frost resist (as a racial benefit) argument very carefully.
Frost resist was used as an example because the devs have stated that dwarves will already have inherent frost resistance. A progeny system with that benefit is quite similar to having a game without the progeny system at all. Let me try to explain what I mean with a specific example.
Non-Progeny System: Dwarves have +20 frost resist, which is considered "game-breaking" by those who are "serious about their character". Dwarves are able to play as warriors, crusaders, clerics, and enchanters. Any top tier guild participating in icy content that uses frost resist would require that any non-dwarven warriors, crusaders, clerics, and enchanters make a dwarven alt of that class to get the natural +20 frost resist. Extending to other races with different resistances, each warrior will be required to have an alt for each available race with a unique resistance.
Progeny System: Dwarves have +20 frost resist, which is considered "game-breaking" by those who are "serious about their character". Any top tier guild participating in icy content that uses frost resist would require that their players have dwarven heritage in their blood. Any top tier guild would require that each character be acclimatized to the maximum number of climates possible through progeny.
IF racial bonuses that impact situational content are imbalanced, then the issue you predict already exists to an extent regardless of the progeny system. If situational racial bonuses are in Pantheon, then the generally community could see all races as relatively balanced, but you would still have the top tier guilds demanding that alts be made. If universal (not situational) racial bonuses are given, then the community will see one race as the best and top tier guilds will have race demands (oneADseven's post happens to confirm this).
I would prefer to play a game that involves racial bonuses, progeny bonuses, and items/bonuses that I have no expectation of ever acquiring. If we remove the notion that we can have it all, then everyone is on a greyscale of incompleteness, not the black and white, raid-ready or not that we're used to. I would like even the most compulsive and dedicated player of Pantheon to say 2 years down the line that they still haven't gotten x bonus or y item yet. If the opposite is true, where 2 years down the line, competitive players are all able to have acquired their x bonuses and y items, then we'll get the homogeneity that so many have complained about. It's a double edged sword, but I know where I stand.
Edit: I would like to clarify my suggested mechanic before, since there seemed to be some confusion. I was suggesting that if dwarves (without progeny) start with +20 frost resist and gnomes start with +20 anaerobic resist, then a progeny of dwarf+gnome may be allowed to have both +20 frost and +20 anaerobic resist. Perhaps the subsequent generation mixed with a skar would have +20 frost, +20 anaerobic, and +20 fire resist. It could also be modified that mixing in this fashion results in +15 frost, +15 anaerobic, and +15 fire resist.
Racial bonuses present a tangential issue to progeny. In racial bonuses you have the issue of balancing among the bonuses, but everyone has at least one bonus. Progeny as you describe it is different: those who do not choose to participate in progeny systems are simply leaving free power on the floor. In the former situation, you can still have a variety of different races be viable at once depending on content; in the latter, there is only one acceptable setup: the player who has acquired all the worthwhile bonuses.
I think your examples are dependent entirely on the difficulty of preparing a fresh character for max level and the relative power of the racial bonuses. You do not have this problem if the frost resistance isn't game breaking. But if frost resistance isn't game breaking, and that's the only reward you get for participating in the progeny system (with no ameliorative aspects e.g. AA-retention) then very few people will bother for the reasons Feyshtey outlined.
I just don't think this system has a leg to stand on without seriously reconsidering the retirement of the original character. If you simply require a max level character to participate in it, and then you additionally give them more bonuses depending on content (let's say, since you're not retiring a character, that you could retain certain dungeon keys) they have cleared on their main, then people will almost certainly typically choose this route over making a fresh character.
Ainadak I would implore you to reread Feyshtey's concerns, as I believe his examples are precisely the issue with such a system. It just quickly snowballs into a mandatory drudge.
I have indeed read Feyshtey's concerns and while they are valid and important, I don't think they are pertinent to the discussion of how to develop a progeny system. I see his arguments as why not to develop a progeny system. Reasons why the system is flawed inherently are important to bring up, but discussion of how to best to design a system (flawed or not) is the only way to continue forward. If I were a developer on the VR team, I'm not sure I would personally want to tackle the progeny system. The VR team disagrees and have clearly indicated that they're interested in it, so I would like to guide the discussion forward. I don't claim to have solutions to all the issues, but I do think that with enough thought that the mechanic could work.
As to the racial bonuses being a tangential issue, I just don't see it that way. If you can have a skar warrior with fire resist and a dwarf warrior with frost resist (without progeny), then by not making both characters you're just leaving benefits on the table. I see it as simply as: You have to level a new character for +20 of some resist type. It's actually worse in the normal system, since you cannot apply the ameliorative aspects that you have brought up and that I agree with.
I agree that the cost of retiring a max level character is a particularly brutal one, which is why I sought to introduce a mechanic that would lessen that blow, but not remove the spirit of that sacrifice. oneADseven brought up the idea of having one max level character at all times so as not to cripple yourself for participating in max level guild content. Perhaps the parent character only retires once the progeny reaches max level, at which point all the ameliorative conditions set in. This would allow players to slowly level their progeny while continuing to grind AA, raid, and do other max level content, which would not be permanently lost progress or time.
Let's say that's true, that it's not an irredeemable system. You still need to solve these issues that people are bringing up, both the mechanical ones and the naturally occurring community perception issues. I do not believe that there is any benefit to tacking on even more problematic design by adding player power above and beyond a normal character to this system.
I personally believe all problems are solved if you treat Progeny as actual progeny and not some weird reincarnation thing. Like, why even call it progeny at all? My dad is still alive and working at the highest ranked position he's ever had even though I'm into my prime working years.
I think at that point the best, most obvious solution for me is to answer Kilsin's question with: no, I would not give up my max level character unless you forced me by gating player power behind it. Even then, I'm not sure it wouldn't break my desire to play the game. I simply remain unconvinced that such a schema would result in anything but ridicule.
Feyshtey said:The problem is the speculation is that an "offspring" character has access to benefits not otherwise available to original characters. If the system means to just allow you to carry over some subset of skills that any character can get, what's the point? Fast-tracking a new character to some small degree by sacrificing another? Fine. I'm perfectly good with that. I wont participate because i'll just start a new character so that I have the option to go back to the original at some later date. I wouldnt argue with that system. But if the intent is that in order to reach the real true cap of frost resist by retiring characters, no. I'm flat out against that for a myriad of reasons.
A thing that concerns me which I've discussed in other threads is how this scales with expansion releases?
If this is a system meant to provide replayability, I can respect it. However it's fairly obvious to me at least that it means also to create a time investement for those that reach cap level. They are provided a carrot to replay on a new character in order to consume time until more content is released. So how does that work for the third expansion? The fourth? The fifth?
Lets say I'm the audience to which this kind of system appears to be targeted; a power-leveling type-A personality. I shelve my capped level 50 necromancer to start a new character. I take whatever carrot offered me to do so, and I start a ranger. Who I then cap at 50 and start a druid. Is three the max times I can Progeny? Lets assume so. Now the expansion comes out. I cap my ranger to the new level 60 limit and then... What? Is Progeny now a forever stagnate system for me unless I start a new character entirely at level 1 with no benefit? Or do I start a new necro at level 1 with no Progeny benefits so that I can experience the necro in the new content? Or is there another 1, 2 or more Progeny slots opened with the new expansion, from which I Progeny my druid to a level 1 necro which I cap to 60, then Progeny to a level 1 ranger to Progeny to 60?
Then the third expansion comes out...
What happens when a new player comes to the game after the 5th expansion? Is that person required to reach level 80 before they can Progeny the first time? Or can they use the benefits that always allow earlier content to be consumed faster (economy, gear upgrades, new spell lines, faster travel options, etc.) and crank thru 2 meaningless characters up to 50 to get the full Progeny benefits on the third and then start taking the 3rd character seriously? Or are they required to level to 70 or 80 or whatever the new cap is before Progeny becomes an option, 3 times? 6 times? However many times the Progeny cap has been raised thru expansions?
Regardless of the answers to these questions, the point is that throughout the process either you must replay a class that you actually like repeatedly from the start to gain the maximum benefits of that class, or there's little point in doing it at all if you actually like a class and choose to stick with it. Compound this for people that like to have a tank, a caster and a healer for flexibility or variety of gameplay. Must I play 9 characters to max just to get 3 I intended to achieve that are not considered sub-standard?
And back to the point about providing a subset of skills to a Progeny offspring, if that's all it is why must I retire a character to do so? Does a master swordsman only impart his wisdom to his child upon his death?
I'd imagine the devs have considered this scenario to the progeny system after several progeny spawns and two or three expansions because it appears to logically flow as a stacking linear progression. It seems rather daunting and off-putting to me after 2 or 3 progeny. But I want to have optimism for the progeny system because there is a hint of merit with it, especially in regard to replayability and maintaining some continued legitimacy to vanilla content.
How might adding new content to the vanilla, that only progeny can participate in as they level up, affect the overall game given the above problem? For example, in addition to playing any or all of the original vanilla content, there is an extension of fresh material that is specifically designed for progeny. It could reflect meanginful chronological change in the original vanilla design while weaving in substantive elements keep experience essential and new to the player. For lack of a better name or descriptive, it can be considered a sub-expansion or retro-expansion. Not neccessarily as developmentally taxing as a full expansion as it is placed within the vanilla content but it extends the vanilla design by some degree.
And after the following (read second) true expansion another sub-expansion is placed between the first and second?
OakKnower said:I'd imagine the devs have considered this scenario to the progeny system after several progeny spawns and two or three expansions because it appears to logically flow as a stacking linear progression. It seems rather daunting and off-putting to me after 2 or 3 progeny. But I want to have optimism for the progeny system because there is a hint of merit with it, especially in regard to replayability and maintaining some continued legitimacy to vanilla content.
How might adding new content to the vanilla, that only progeny can participate in as they level up, affect the overall game given the above problem? For example, in addition to playing any or all of the original vanilla content, there is an extension of fresh material that is specifically designed for progeny. It could reflect meanginful chronological change in the original vanilla design while weaving in substantive elements keep experience essential and new to the player. For lack of a better name or descriptive, it can be considered a sub-expansion or retro-expansion. Not neccessarily as developmentally taxing as a full expansion as it is placed within the vanilla content but it extends the vanilla design by some degree.
And after the following (read second) true expansion another sub-expansion is placed between the first and second?
This would be kind of cool, when adventuring you could wander acroos an NPC that mentions he knew your father or mother and may give you an item or offer you a quest. It would be kind of cool NPC's interacting with you like this occasionly.
My vision for Progeny:
If we're going to allow our characters to procreate, it would be pretty cool to develop some optional in-game features that could compliment the experience. A starting point could be as simple as allowing our characters to get married. After that it becomes much more complex and intriguing, but let's explore some possibilities.
Create a chapel for each major city that is unique to the race that hails from there. Allow players to schedule events such as weddings, anniversaries, or baby showers. Each racial chapel would have it's own look/theme that is reflective of their culture. Players would have to pay a fee to utilize the chapel, and have the option to rent (additional cost) space from the attached wedding/party hall. Allow characters to mail out invitations for any event they schedule, and give each recipient the ability to RSVP.
Whether an event is held in the chapel (moderately expensive, limited capacity) or party hall (very expensive, larger capacity), allow players to pay for optional features that could make the event more memorable and improve upon the player experience for every attendee. Allow us to serve various dishes that can provide temporary buffs, with each dish requiring it's own learned recipe. These can be obtained through a mixture of direct purchase, questing, faction reward, or something else. Each recipe would have it's own set of ingredients, with certain ingredients having more difficult procurement requirements. Behemoth Stew, anybody? How about some Dragon Egg Salad? There are plenty of cool ways to incorporate culinary buffs into the game.
Another way to further enhance these "events" would be to enable the event planner/facilitator or attendees to give out "heirlooms" at the event. There could be a combination of heirlooms that provide a variety of benefits. One such benefit could be a "Return to Chapel" ability. This would be similiar to the "Return Home" ability except it would return you to a specific chapel and be on a seperate cooldown. Another heirloom could be a certificate that provides a 50% reduction on broker fees when the owner uses the specific Broker/Auction House that is connected to that cities chapel. How about a heirloom (or collection of individually acquired heirlooms) that unlock various sets of "twink" gear, jewelery, or both. These items would be designed to noticeably improve the power of new characters (or Progeny) through a combination of stats or buffs, and would stop scaling around level 15 or 20. The possibilities with heirlooms are endless, but they would basically function like "guild amenities" from other games.
Just like with the culinary recipes, each heirloom would have it's own set of requirements to unlock it, varying from direct purchase, questing, faction reward, or something else. The person bestowing the heirlooms to others could inscribe a unique message onto them that can help commemorate the event where it was received. ex: "Heirloom of Call to Thronefast" (Heirloom must be in inventory for the character to cast the ability) Item description reads: Received on 01/22/2017 -- Commemorating the marriage of Ashe and Logan Blackstone." ex: "Helmet of HolyBuffsMan!" "Received on 01/22/2017 -- Commemorating the birth of Synterria Blackstone."
There could be small-scope events where only the bride and groom receive heirlooms, but all of the attendees are able to enjoy a nice meal and it's accompanying buff(s). There could be large scale events where everybody in attendance receives both a heirloom and a meal, but these would be much more difficult to faciliate due to the added cost or a limited availability of resources. Perhaps there can be tradeable faction credits that can be used to purchase the heirlooms. Maybe there is a couple who wants to throw an epic celebration never to be forgotten, hosting an amazing banquet and providing a commemorable heirloom to all of their guests.
I know "baby showers" seem kind of lame in an MMO, but how cool would it be to receive a full set of twink gear for your child? Hopefully you have a lot of friends because each piece would be pretty costly! This could be a great way to incorporate some extra social interaction into the game. Personally, I would find it very rewarding anytime I was able to make a worthwhile contribution in one of these events. It's always a great feeling when you get to help out a friend, and being able to commemorate these interactions with something tangible would make it even more special.
Now I understand that this is not something that everybody could/would participate in. Characters could still have children whether they are married or not via immaculate conception or whatever other method VR wants to implement. The party halls could still be used for a variety of other settings such as birthdays, holidays, or virtually anything that someone wants to celebrate. I'm not trying to come up with an idea that gives a benefit that is exclusive to married characters or their non-bastard children. Any benefit associated with the culinary buffs or heirlooms should be universally obtainable by all, but by making each of them difficult to unlock/purchase, you're not going to see people spamming events for the sake of a food buff. Maybe high end guilds would be rich enough to host some sort of daily banquet, but it should be pretty expensive and effectively drain some of their funding. It would need to be balanced so that a blend of player types are capable of utilizing these party halls, but add a layer of intricacy for the people who are truly vested in unearthing some of the better rewards. Behemoth Stew and Dragon Egg Salad, for example, would be considered a rare delicacy and only available to the groups of characters that are in the business of slaying behemoths and dragons. It's just an idea to add some extra flavor to the Progeny system, and seems to fall in line with most of the tenets for this game, particularly:
-- A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.
-- An understanding that faction and alignment should be an integral part of interacting with the world and its citizens.
-- A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.
Thinking beyond all of those features, I'd like to delve a little deeper into the Progeny system itself, regardless of whether or not any of the above mentioned features are implemented.
Upon reaching max level, the Progeny system is unlocked. Can add a quest or faction requirement if desired.
When the Progeny is born, they become a new playable character on the same account as the parent they are receiving their inherited bonuses from. (Married couples cannot "share" a child, they would each have to meet the level/quest/faction requirements necessary to participate in the Progeny system, and the child would only inherit a bonus (access keys, faction score, spell mastery, etc.) from the parent tied to the same account of the Progeny.
They would have to be the same class as their parent. (A max level warrior wouldn't be able to pass down an inherited buff to a cleric)
The parent character would still function as a normal character in the game, and continue to "teach" their Progeny throughout their life. All new access keys, faction scores, spell masteries, etc would be transferrable to the Progeny. (I understand that the current plan is to permanently retire the parent characters, and I am advocating against that. I stand firm in saying that the parent character should still be playable in the game after their Progeny is spawned. This allows players to continue playing with the groups/friends that they leveled up with and experience all of the end-game content associated with having a max level character.)
All soulbound or attuned gear can be handed down to the Progeny. (This does not create duplicate gear. If the parent wants to hand down all of their epic gear, they'll need to get a new set of gear for themself.)
When the Progeny reaches max level, a new "Retirement" option becomes available for their parent, but they can no longer transfer Soulbound or Account Attuned gear to their child. (This prevents a player from participating in end-game content on both characters and double dipping with the rewards) Upon retiring, new content would be unlocked for the parent character that is exclusive to retirees. This would include quests to learn family recipes that can only be taught to the Progeny and be tied into the culinary buff system that I mentioned earlier, account-bound heirlooms (cannot be worn by parent, can only be handed down to Progeny) stronger versions of spells (not useable by parent) that can be taught to the Progeny, secret shortcuts, new quest unlocks, etc.
By now, the max level Progeny is inherently better than their parent character. They have all of the bonuses they inherited from their parent (access keys, faction, spell mastery, etc) PLUS have all of the cool stuff that their retired parent recently taught them (recipes, spells) or gifted them (heirlooms, secret shortcuts)
With the Progeny character now being a significantly more enhanced version of their retired parent, it's time for the retired parent to enjoy their golden years. They can continue to teach their child by grinding faction in a remote part of the world or unlocking additional access keys that are transferrable to the Progeny. They can also play the role of good 'ol Dad by being used as a farmer or rare spawn watcher. (Level 1 alts shouldn't be able to camp in a dragon's lair. Imposing a level requirement on areas like this would actually be a clever way of providing utility to retired characters as they could be parked at rare spawns to help with spotting them.)
Now, I fully understand that people will be able to point out flaws or potential conflicts with this idea, such as divorces(wife gets to keep the ring and it retains it's value; if bought for 25k plat, sells for 25k plat), deeper generations (grandpa/grandma?), etc. My belief is that most of these issues can be worked out one way or another.
The real question is, how many people would like to see something like this? My wife is totally on board and seems to think that other couples that plan on playing the game would absolutely love something like this. I understand that it would have to be done in a way that doesen't alienate single players from experiencing all of the features, but I think I clarified that by saying that they could still have children, rent the party halls, etc.
What do you think?
I know for a fact if something like this were to be implemented, I'd have one epic quest on my hands in regards to preparing for my character's wedding celebration. It would have to be extravagent ... one for the ages ... with my wife wearing the most beautiful dress (Costs 5k plat, cosmetic only except for +10k IRL wife faction) and sporting a giant rock on her finger ... (25k plat, cosmetic only except for IRL wife deaggro ability.)
@Jimmayus
I think you still hold two valid reservations that are not possible to refute at this point in time. Having to retire your character entirely seems like too much and implementing benefits forces the min/max community to participate in a system that is not necessarily suited for or adapted to them. I have no way to convince you that you should change your opinions on these matters (you shouldn't have to) and I have no way to convince you that the progeny system won't run into these issues (it likely will). All I can say is that I don't see these issues as roadblocks.
As to having to retire your character: I certainly expect that I'm in the minority when I say I wouldn't mind retiring (from max level content) a character. I would be fine if a system was implemented in which the character remains in game and that I am incentivized to play that character, even if that character is not suited for max level content. If you tag on top carrying over AA, parent characters not retiring until progeny is max level, carrying over faction/flagging as appropriate, perhaps some minor experience scaling to speed up the second go around, then I'm happy as a clam.
As to min/max forcing: I think that the min/max mentality is awesome and it gets people to try and optimize their characters and their time in game. However, I think that Pantheon should aim to divorce us from the notion that all benefits and bonuses must be acquired, but most importantly that expectations be placed that others acquire all existing benefits. If you take the progeny system and chuck it into world of warcraft, or rift, or what have you, then it certainly won't fit in. I believe that's because those games are white washed. If everyone in Pantheon is spending months upon months trying to work through their epic quest(s), then spending months and months levelling your progeny character won't seem outlandish.
I also believe that diversified benefits can broaden the appeal of the progeny system while increasing the balance window for any particular benefit. If +20 resistance is overpowered, then perhaps +10 resistance and increased potion making output would be balanced. Maybe +5 resistance, increased potion making output, cheaper fast travel, a cosmetic portrait unlock, and access to high-class vendors would do the trick.
My support of the progeny system is predicated on the hope that your min/max forcing argument will be resolved through sweeping game-wide changes or that careful balancing will avoid having the community at large viewing it as a forced feature. Perhaps that's a foolish notion, but I just don't see these problems as insurmountable.
@oneADseven
I think your mechanic is wonderful, but I think the target audience is very small. The people who would enjoy taking part in a marriage and making babies in game are probably those who are already predisposed to taking part in those things if they were implemented seperately from the progeny mechanic. Speaking for myself only, I have formed lasting and personal relationships with some of the folks that I've gamed with online and so there (for me) is a blur between in-game and real life relationships. If I wanted to take part in the progeny system for a mechanical purposes, then saying that I would have to choose a friend to marry would just feel super weird to me to the point that I wouldn't take part (even choosing an npc would seem a little creepy to me). If my wife played MMOs then I would be all about the mechanic.
Kilsin said:Krixus said:The progeny system seems like a shallow, fake, time sink mechanic. Until it has been defined, I'm thumbs down in a big way. It's not something the devs should be spending time and money on.
This is why making claims and speaking about a system before you actually know what it is about is a bad thing, you just completely wrote it off without ever knowing the details or trying it for yourself, which is not helpful at all.
I think the point some of us have about a system like this is "why in the first place" are we adding a system around something that would really be handled in roleplaying. If you are just min/maxing you likely don't care at all about the "story" aspect of the system just the benefits. Again comes back around to what does it really add for the additional complexity - if the benefit isn't enough to worry about why do it and if its worth it why would I want to repeat everything again?
Its not saying any said system is good or bad is a question of it being unnecessary or worth any effort at all beyond the drama of the system.
Regarding oneadseven's tangent on marriage and baby showers: I don't care whether either of those systems are added, but I do care that you don't get ridiculous stuff like an additional teleport and random powered heirlooms simply for being married. I don't intend to use the in-game marriage feature, but in the exact same way that progeny systems which boost your stats beyond normal limits would force me to use that system so would a marriage feature that provides you with unique buffs.
I agree completely and utterly with Dwyvyrn: people keep trying to incentivize things that are almost by definition primarily experiences for the purpose of roleplay. It's not even great roleplay, it's completely ethnocentric. Do you think everyone has the same marriage customs? Do you think a race as rapacious and genocidal as the Skar have elaborate marriage ceremonies? In chapels?
It's not as simple as whether or not you think marriages are a cool event day where people give you presents.
Ainadark every single one of those potential buffs is either overpowered or useless for the exact same reasons I've already provided. Maybe VR is truly able to break the mold of thousands of years of the human condition and can stop people from seeking power, but let's be realistic and understand that 'fostering a culture of not seeking buffs' is incredibly optimistic at best.
Jimmayus said:Ainadark every single one of those potential buffs is either overpowered or useless for the exact same reasons I've already provided. Maybe VR is truly able to break the mold of thousands of years of the human condition and can stop people from seeking power, but let's be realistic and understand that 'fostering a culture of not seeking buffs' is incredibly optimistic at best.
Suggesting that something can never be balanced is incredibly pessimistic at best. If Pantheon implemented an epic quest that required a years worth of work to acquire and gave +20 resistance, people might say that it's unfair and poorly balanced, but nobody would question that the mechanics of epic quests and itemization were inherently flawed and cannot be balanced. Are you just opposed to things that take lots of work?
I never said anything about stopping people from seeking power, in fact quite the opposite. People seeking power is realistic and relatable, but the expectation that people are able to acquire everything they want is silly and a product of white washed game design. I am arguing for systems where nobody can reasonably be expected to have achieved everything. You seem to be suggesting that if people aren't allowed to have everything they want in a reasonable time frame, then system comes crashing down. The status quo is getting BiS in a reasonable time frame and then moving on (to an alt or another game) is not something I believe we should hold to.
Dwyvyrn said:Kilsin said:Krixus said:The progeny system seems like a shallow, fake, time sink mechanic. Until it has been defined, I'm thumbs down in a big way. It's not something the devs should be spending time and money on.
This is why making claims and speaking about a system before you actually know what it is about is a bad thing, you just completely wrote it off without ever knowing the details or trying it for yourself, which is not helpful at all.
I think the point some of us have about a system like this is "why in the first place" are we adding a system around something that would really be handled in roleplaying. If you are just min/maxing you likely don't care at all about the "story" aspect of the system just the benefits. Again comes back around to what does it really add for the additional complexity - if the benefit isn't enough to worry about why do it and if its worth it why would I want to repeat everything again?
Its not saying any said system is good or bad is a question of it being unnecessary or worth any effort at all beyond the drama of the system.
We have explained parts of this already but this isn't a forced system, you can ignore it and play the game without worrying. We have said the rewards/bonuses for using the Progeny system will not be game breaking, meaning - you will not suffer in a group against someone who has used the Progeny system if you haven't, people are just wildly throwing assumptions and opinions around without actually knowing how the system works, but to explain why we think it will be good for Pantheon very briefly and for context (and this isn't information for people to cherry pick and continue arguing over, it is some very general reasons behind why a system like this can be very good for our game)
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
- It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
- Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system.
We have stated that we will scrap it if it doesn't work well, but for it to have a chance, we need to get more work done on it and then let people actually test it out first hand, because so far the discussion is based on assumptions and opinions on something with such little information at hand and that is just absurd.
We really need to relax and give a few topics like this a chance before casting such negative assumptions over them or trying to troubleshoot problems that don't yet exist. Let us get the Progeny system to a working state so we can implement everything we have in mind for it and then when it is time to test it (along with all of the other systems, mechanics and features that work in sync with the Progeny system) you folks can then give us your feedback, we will be open to discussing it more at that time, but for now, people assuming and basing opinions on such little information on this topic is pointless.
This thread has now been closed, several warnings have been ignored and people continue to argue opinions and assumptions. I have removed more posts and am leaving my post as the final message in this thread, please do not create any more threads on this topic or they will also be removed.
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