I get all of the arguments about powergamers. Most of those scenarios seem game imbalancing, and in no way resemble what the devs state is the purpose of the game.
Here's how I see this playing out.
What if there was not character progression, but instead story, quest, event continuation from running progeny character. Lets call it progeny content. No huge character bonuses nothing more than maybe an event or quest that gives better than average gear drops for anyone grouping with a progeny. Also, there was a "hint" during a recent review that more things in the world might change over time, not just day to night. What IF the progeny system was their activation mechanism? In stead of building factions with the court of Thronefast, your progeny could battle a horde of orcs to defend the court of thronefast. Said event could then drop gear that wouldn't give a strict advantage, only better leveling gear. Everyone here would WANT a progeny character in their party then!
Food for thought...
Would YOU reroll just to experience more of the world, events, story? I absolutely would.
I feel that Kilsin's earlier statement about needing to reroll the same class in order to get the full benefits of progeny is ominous. i know for a fact that if i were to level a paladin to max level the last thing i would want my next character to be is a friggin paladin. if that is going to be the progeny system then i will bow out! there is no reason to have a character at max level then delete it to remake the same character.
I must admit, I didn't read the entire thread, which means some of my points may already have been brought up.
I believe I understand where this idea comes from -- although I may also be wrong. Once you've maxxed out everything, what is there left to do but raid? I don't know much about actual game design, but I imagine designing raids/complicated quests is neither quick nor easy. So, what will happen if some of the players get there fast and chew through raids fast -- what then? That's when boredom and locking others out of raid content begins. That's when farming for twinking and PLing in low level areas ensues, making it harder for new, lower level characters to play their game. One way to allieviate those negatives from a developers stand point, would be an enticing system of retirering characters. It's also clear to me that they're trying to come up with solution, which will be fun and meaningful for us, the players, too.
As a person, I'm a mix of things, a hybrid if you will, which is why I love playing hybrids instead of pure characters. I'm a powergamer (I'm ambitious and tenacious, and I want to know all the tricks in the book about my toon -- but I don't look at charts; I prefer learning by playing), yet I have a role playing heart that yearns for meaningful experiences (my relationships, ingame and out, are important to me, and I love to stop and smell the flowers, too.) For instance, I loved taking my epic'ed druid to Plane of Growth and just swim around in the lake, just because. And to say hi to Tunare (for the non EQ crowd: it was a raiding zone in the Velious part of the world with the one of gods of druids, Tunare, in it. I raided there with my paladin, but not my druid (faction hits).
And I love joking around! (As a druid, when I ported, I had fun creating macros like: "Welcome to Zenya Air, please stow away your weapons and spells for takeoff. We don't want stains, do we? The Porting Movie of today will be Saving Chanter XX" or something, usually a member of the porting group with a hit movie twist, or whatever else I'd come up with etc.)
Because of who I am and how I play, my characters mean so much more to me than stats, which in turn means I doubt I'll be able to fully retire a maxxed out character.
Like Traylan suggested, I'd prefer a scenario, where my character is too old for fighting, but able to help newbies with buffs etc. and also have the retired toon be able to stay in my house, like an NPC, when I'm not playing her (in a limited way for the sake of nostalgia.) I doubt I'll be playing the same class as the protegé. Perhaps I'd do that later down the road, if I begin to miss the traits of [insert class here]. To play other classes I'd simply create alts. I'll ponder more on this to try to come up with ideas -- if I can.
Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
This could be very cool. A massive sacrifice, but if you want to encourage your game to not be top-heavy and reward those that re-start then this would be very nice.
Player rep: You see "Evilyn the Evil XIV" and you know that player has sacrificed 13 max-level characters to get this one! You know that's a very experienced and dedicated player.
Reduce repeated grinding: I have nothing against long grinds to get faction etc. but perhaps progeny would start with some of the parent faction, for example. Doesn't increase their max, but means they don't need to re-grind all of it.
Heirlooms: It would be nice to have epic items usable by progeny. A cleric epic mace could be used by a progeny fighter but with perhaps very small self-heal and obviously scaled to the level. Perhaps a warrior sword epic would be re-forged to top a mage progeny staff.
Maps: Your parent knew how to get there, so maybe you do too. Another way to remove some drudgery of the second time through?
As long as the bonuses aren't too significant (game mechanic-wise - the kudos is fine being enormous), I like the idea a lot.
I like the idea. Replaying content with the same class and name but taking another routes to cover what you have missed the first time. Perhaphs after a year... Most of people concerned that "reset" hero would get too much benefit suprise me. How is it any different from a twinked hero lfg? Are twinks are really that gamebreaking?
Lodizal said:I like the idea. Replaying content with the same class and name but taking another routes to cover what you have missed the first time. Perhaphs after a year... Most of people concerned that "reset" hero would get too much benefit suprise me. How is it any different from a twinked hero lfg? Are twinks are really that gamebreaking?
It is not twinks that will become the only problem. What you have to worry about is how do you develop fair content when you have two or three guilds per server with all them bringing max level characters who have re-leveled once or twice or whatever the max is to get the maximum bonus possible for their main class.
For instance if I have leveled my warrior two or three times in a row and I have got this extra bonus to mitigation and or DPS or whatever it is, how will the new warrior just starting out even begin to compete? So if in the future they make the encounters for "first time" mains then our guild will demolish it before breakfast. If they make the encounters for a raid of "second or third time" mains then few guilds will have any chance at all at this content until the next expansion.
In the end it'll become like a prerequisite for anyone who is in a serious guild. Good luck finding a spot in a good guild or even a good group if you haven't played your toon through once or twice is where you will end up.
Not a deal breaker for me. However many times we need to max out our mains will be my first priority. I prefer one but I will do whatever gives me the edge and keeps me competitive. In my honest opinion this will only make it harder for all the people who are actually interested in this progeny system to get anything really good accomplished. Anything other than an experience bonus or a bonus that scale is overtime that eventually dropped off max level will just make the whole thing unfair. Not for me so much but perhaps for those with a little less time or dedication to focus all of that effort for a small edge.
There was some interesting ideas in this post if you read through the entire thing on how this could be fair or beneficial. I can't remember them all but the one that sticks out was something about playing the alt to generate buffs or things for your main. I might play an alt for this but I would not retire my main.
Jamie, again same thing, how is it different from any other form of advancement? That new warrior still wont be able to compete vs a veteran one in other ways ( AA, dungeon gear, resistance gear, top tier skills / spells, epic, acceses etc). From what Kilsin said it does sound thats just another way to advance your char. Instead of / in addition to grinding that 500 AA for that huge step forward /buff you reset the level and grind through levels for the similar benefit in a comparable time period.
Im super excited at this system, and we know nothing about it yet! I love the idea of being able to retire a toon ( define retire for me Brad lol ) and have his / her children take up their parents armor and weapons and continue the struggle. Im a alt whore, and there does come times when I take a toon to max level, and decide for whatever reason, that was fun and I like Tanking / Healing / CC / DPS, but not this class's way of doing it, and I think I will rerole as another class in the same archtype.
A Idea that was thrown around somewhere that I really enjoyed was that a progeny character instead of giving a bonus to stats, or a skill, would instead allow a ultra rare drop to become droppable from name mobs as long as a progeny character was in the group, this would give a reason for them to be desirable, without having to contend with possible stat / skill abuse in the long run. As a cavet, I would say that at least in classic pantheon, only group mobs would be capable of dropping Ultra rare items, and that once you begin to collect your end game raid gear, your raid gear would fully replace all your ultra rare items from max lvl group mobs. Ultra rare items being roughly 10% better than rares.
Im not sure if the Devs have fleshed out fully what type of reward they want to give for the progeny system, or how many times a toon could have kids, I like the idea of earning roman numerals after your name for each iteration of progeny as a status symbol, but once we know more, we can talk about this more. Thoughts? Constructive comments?
Perhaps something similar to the Legacy system from SWTOR. At first, you could have all your chars with the same last name and a few other minor bits. As soon as your legacy starts all characters within said legacy gain XP towards it. Perhaps have a char need to join it so if you have an alt that you don't want as part of that legacy, they aren't tied to it. After leveling a class to max how about an ability that gets passed on to another character you create after that. I have a hard time thinking of retiring my main char, but do love me some alts. The abilities passed on should be nice, but not so much that the legacy char with X cross-class ability creates a lack of demand for original class(Think monk granting FD to class X and thus class X with FD is more desired than the monk. - have monk pass on safe fall or some martial arts skill) Just spitballin a way to offer some kind of system that your main is the head hancho but without having to sacrifice/permanently retire the char.
Going to throw this into the mix and see what happens:
INTENTION:
Ensuring Alts (as progeny) are actually played and don't 'rush' to level up. This is to ensure that the whole point of the progeny system (to create lower level Alts of veteran players such that there are still people at lower level in the lower level + starter zones, even on a 'mature' server). It also presumes that the 'Main' is not deleted. A big benefit should be, perhaps, some hybrid racial benefits, possibly - or social/ faction based and NOT purely 'stat based' since this leads to 'Min/Max-ing'.
METHOD:
Irrespective of the method used to create the Progeny (or even the 'benefit' the progeny get) the following apply:
1. The progeny need (at least) 150% of standard EXP to level up! This is accomplished by 'taxing' the EXP earned.
2. The 'taxed' EXP (or a proportion of it, decided for balance) is passed to their 'parent' in the form of 'AA exp' or the equivalent.
3. The parent may even have a special 'progeny' Tab of AA skills which are 'different' from 'standard' ones.
4. The parent may even get a 'bonus' to faction / prestige based on the progeny's activity.
NB: When the progeny reaches a certain level (Main level as Max) these costs/benefits stop accruing.
CAVEAT:
If the Main' is deleted, then the EXP penalty (TAX) should not apply, of if it does, then benefit is accrued for use by the progeny at higher levels. This should not take the form of bonuses that can be Min/Maxed for bonus beyond the system above. The idea, after all, is to dissuade people to 'PL their character to max 3x'.
Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
Honesty, to me, this sounds awful. I'm a completionist. Whether it's collections, achievements, BiS gear, etc... I always want to be working towards "finishing" my character, though I *never* want to actually get there. I don't make alts. Ever. I want one character, I want to attempt to do all content and maximize that character. I expect that to take a massive time investment. And as I get closer to realizing that goal, I want to be able to enjoy it. Enjoy the BiS gear, enjoy server firsts, enjoy showing off said gear and debating about encounters most don't get to do. And I enjoy having to rely on fellow hardcore friends to accomplish those tasks. I enjoy the journey to maximum level, I do all content on my way there. I just do not enjoy doing it again and again. I enjoy the initial grind, but I'm also happy when the xp grind is done, and focus shifts to raids.
So, I would not be taking advantage of such a system. I have no problem with others that do, they likely aren't the folks I'll be running with anyway. Really hope this type of system and any type of benefits it gives does not make it mandatory to function at peak efficiency.
disposalist said:Player rep: You see "Evilyn the Evil XIV" and you know that player has sacrificed 13 max-level characters to get this one! You know that's a very experienced and dedicated player.
Reduce repeated grinding: I have nothing against long grinds to get faction etc. but perhaps progeny would start with some of the parent faction, for example. Doesn't increase their max, but means they don't need to re-grind all of it.
Heirlooms: It would be nice to have epic items usable by progeny. A cleric epic mace could be used by a progeny fighter but with perhaps very small self-heal and obviously scaled to the level. Perhaps a warrior sword epic would be re-forged to top a mage progeny staff.
Maps: Your parent knew how to get there, so maybe you do too. Another way to remove some drudgery of the second time through?
As long as the bonuses aren't too significant (game mechanic-wise - the kudos is fine being enormous), I like the idea a lot.
I sincerely believe that prestige is the only reward needed for the progeny system, with the above conveniences an added bonus.
Maybe each new reroll gets a new and unique title to signify the number of times they've "progeny'd". Perhaps they get a new and exclusive mount, or pet. Perhaps provide them with a tradeable account bound accessory that increase exp gain, so they can use it not only for a progeny, but a standard "alt". Reward them with things that are neat and fun and noticable, but not overtly advantageous.
Another idea I was tossing around with friends on this topic was allowing the use of the different colored mana from level 1. The progeny's father was a cleric, and he's a warrior. Don't give him new skills, but allow him to have learned a thing or two from dad from level 1.
I sincerely believe that any actual statistical bonus to a progeny will create issue.
Perhaps the bonus for Progeny 1 isn't so bad. Just a few stats, right? But what about progeny 10, because some people will do that if it means a noticable advantage. I believe that's wrong. I do believe that the people who put in the most time and effort can be offered content that others might not get. That's fine. Not every single thing needs to be given to every single person. My issue here lies with what the game may become ten (or even two) years down the road.
The bonuses that were once super minor are inflated because someone has progeny'd so many times. The bonuses are small, but in a game with real challenge, small bonuses matter. I'm afraid it will get to a point where Vanilla characters are scorned, and only the progeny are sought after.
With my own personal thoughts put out there, I will probably never progeny. I'm a roleplayer, and the stories and roleplay I've written with others means more to me than anything else ever will. I've already started writing on my character's history and unless she dies in-character, I just can't justify giving up everything I've built for her.
Now THAT being said, I think it would be freaking amazing if we were given the option to progeny from our character in Beta. I'm assuming there would be a wipe after the final beta, right before launch. What if the players who supported the game through beta got to play their character, and instead of having it hard wiped, they were given the option to progeny their character for launch.
Now that I would do.
So I have not re-read this entire thread - Good chance this has been mentioned already, but I'm going to put it out there again anyway:
Why can't we have a system wherein once you max a toon you unlock a questline that, once complete, allows you access to create a progeny alt without killing off your original toon? This questline could be arduous and take considerable effort. I for one would find this way more palatable than effectively deleting my max lvl toon.
MINX said:So I have not re-read this entire thread - Good chance this has been mentioned already, but I'm going to put it out there again anyway:
Why can't we have a system wherein once you max a toon you unlock a questline that, once complete, allows you access to create a progeny alt without killing off your original toon? This questline could be arduous and take considerable effort. I for one would find this way more palatable than effectively deleting my max lvl toon.
Honestly, I really like this approach over some of the others I've seen here. Completely killing off a max level character does not sound very appealing to me without serious benefits, and at that point I feel the max level bar just gets moved from say level 50 to level 50 x2 or x3 etc.
spyderoptik said:I've already detailed my opinion earlier in thread, but if it's to help populate lower level zones, doesn't the proposed mentoring down system solve that? To give incentive, add AAs to the game and call it a day than wreck havoc on guild rosters/raid/gear plans/etc. I don't get it, progency seems like a messy way to do the above.
and
Endalmir said:Honestly, I really like this approach over some of the others I've seen here. Completely killing off a max level character does not sound very appealing to me without serious benefits, and at that point I feel the max level bar just gets moved from say level 50 to level 50 x2 or x3 etc.
There have been many posters commenting in this very point, both in this thread and the 2nd 'Progeny' thread.
The 3 favoured categories seem to be:
1. Kill off Main in favour of new progeny (least favoured)
2. Semi-Retire or have some temporary efects for Main (many variants)
3. Main remains, with Alt (progeny) still benefitting (some worries about benefits)
With a few other, more significant variations, showing some promise.
But yes, No. :)
Im trying to keep an open mind about it, but the more ideas I read and the more I think about it, the more I dislike it. I mean on paper its interesting and cool. But in practice that would be a last resort thing. Its not something I want to do or that I should actually be or feel forced to do. Any point where I need to do it to be accepted by other players (min/maxers) or it impedes my ability to succeed, or any point I have to do it to gain access to content (including races and classes) then I would feel the system is being forced. But I honestly cant see a good balance between not doing the above and making it attractive to encourage people to go back and play low-mid level content. Especially for people that arent altaholics. So I have no intention of doing this content unless I feel forced, and I dont want to feel forced. And as cool as many of the ideas I have read have been, I have seen nothing that would make me volunteer to retire my main or encourage me to make alts. The lone exception to this rule would be that I might volunteer to progeny my first character to benefit my Bard (though I might just keep it as a very rare alt..... maybe). What about lifer Mains like me?
No, sorry. I dont understand increasing the difficulty of leveling an alt at all. Part of the point of alts has always been that you arent as burdened as you were the first time thru and have earned (for lack of a better term) the ability to grease the skids a bit on your 2nd or 3rd or Nth time thru. I like the notion of benefiting your main by playing an alt and I've presented my own thoughts on how to do that in different threads. But artificially and arbitrarily applying an XP tax just seems really gimmicky to me. Not to mention that the benefits that mean to be gained by a system that encourages alts is then diminished by making the advancements of alts disproportionately cumbersome.
Amsai said: What about lifer Mains like me?
This is why I was (in both this and the other thread) looking at different types of options which positively affect the 'main' while still offerring an incentive for you to put some time into the Alt - even if only for 10-20 levels worth.
@Feyshtey
The rationale for an 'XP tax' was simple:
Veteran Alts will likely have some prior knowledge of the Areas.
Veteran Alts will likely be twinked (to some degree)
Veterans will have support resources (Cash/Bag-Space/Guildies etc) to aid progression.
Thus Veterans will level an Alt substantially faster than a 'newbie'.
Without some (artificial, I grant you) method of limiting this pace, a Veteran Alt will substantially outlevel a newbie in a few days. Hence the 'idea' of putting a tax in place - though this 'taxed exp' can go to the 'Main' for (say) AA development. This would constitute the 'Quid' for the 'pro Quo' part of the tax, if you see what I mean.
@ Evoras
Based on threads we've participated in in the past, you seem to be aligned with me that leveling a main character to "max" should take months, if not years. If you couple that with your last post that suggests every alt should be just as difficult, and that every subsequent character provides some kind of benefit to another character, and that we hope/assume there will be at least 8 character slots to an account, that means that the time investement to really explore just 2/3rds of the currently announced classes would take 4+ years. Without expansions, without new classes, without increased levels.
Even if Progeny were to impact the main rather than the alt (as I think you and I would both like to see), do you really want to play something other than your main for a year just to give your main some small increase? What about the people that dont really like alts at all, but feel obligated to participate in Progeny in order to increase the strength of their main? Or worse, to retire previous characters to eventually level of an offspring they intend to be their main? Should they have to play for years before they get to play the game they actually want to play?
To clarify: The reason I am for this is because I am hoping that they will be making this game with the idea that the game will be all about the journey, not the destination.
I am not so concerned about doing *everything* with one character, and I hope that there are many things that are mutually exclusive for players. i.e... If you are a dark elf you will never be able to do the dwarven quest line, if you are a crusader you will never see the druid portal zone, if you side with the Giants you will never get to see what happens when the Giant king dies, ect...