Xonth said: Other than a experience bonus any combat bonus will make for unbalanced group play. You create a situation where groups will always prefer the player that they interpret as being better. Imagine your building a group and you need a tank. 5 are lfg and two of them are "reborn" characters. Those will always get picked up first because it is implied they are better. Now imagine your the warrior. You log on and throw up the LFG tag and see there are 3 other reborn warriors lfg. You know you are 2nd tier to them simple because it is your first playthrough. Now lets look ar guild recruiting. You want to join a raiding guild, and you have what it takes to be with the best. But..... you only on your first playthrough and they only want reborn characters. So instead of needing 50 levels to raid you need 100 levels to raid...
The Pantheon Difference implies that whatever bonuses the progeny toons receive won't be 'unbalancing.' I'm guessing whatever perks they receive will be less of a benefit than say 'twinking' a character with better gear. In the end people are going to have alts or progeny toons that are better geared than new players anyhow, and I'm guessing this benefit will overshadow any benefit of being a progeny toon, so I'm not too concerned about that aspect of it.
I share your concerns about needing to level twice to raid at level 50. That's why in the system I suggested, you'd have access to the progeny perks once you hit max level. You would just have fewer perks to choose from if you never underwent the progeny process for different classes.
Land said:Sounds like a system in which a pool of bonuses can be selected from at max level - get a character to max level, unlock an attribute of that class in the pool. All current max level characters can then select from the unlocked pool regardless of class.
Since character slots would be limiting, I assume, there might need to be attributes by archetype instead of class.
That may be the case, especially since unless you played a human, you're not going to have all classes available to your race. (assuming humans can be any class as they can in most games)
@Elrandir But gear bonuses can be replicated if the new player obtained the same gear as the twink, innate progeny bonuses could not. And, it emphasizes the point again if the bonuses aren't good enough to matter or be unbalancing - then what's the point? Might as well roll an alt.
It would either have to be a huge bonus (keeping feign death from your maxed Monk that your progeny Cleric can then unlock at level XX) or something that would not cause groups to only accept progeny characters. To me it sounds like this system is geared towards min/maxers, and that to be accepted at all at end game everyone will be expected to be progeny.
A bonus to experience would be fine, a bonus to speed of skill gaining would be fine. Picking a few no drop items to hand down would be fine also, but nothing that unbalances players.
If you're gonna unbalance people then go hog wild, make it possible to progeny Clerics with feign death and track and hide and sneak and pick lock and yada yada.
i'm interested in doing this, but i dont think you'll lose any gear you had before you retired. it wouldnt make sense because your parent's gear would be accessible to you. Altho interested, i think we need more info on the progeny system before i make a final decision. i might do it for sure on an alt, but to do it on a main, i need more information on the system to make a decision.
Raidan said: @Elandir But gear bonuses can be replicated if the new player obtained the same gear as the twink, innate progeny bonuses could not. And, it emphasizes the point again if the bonuses aren't good enough to matter or be unbalancing - then what's the point? Might as well roll an alt.
I think it would be a balancing game. I'm not sold on the Progeny System, I've just tried to think of things that would make it both fair and something some people would take part in. The argument for replicating gear bonuses by acquiring the same gear is no different that arguing replicating the progeny bonuses can be achieved by creating a progeny character. I don't think the stat bonuses alone should be the only driving force for creating a progeny toon. The driving force should be a balance of a number of factors:
-Stat bonuses and the ability to make minor tweaks to the classes.
-The ability to replay content that was missed on the initial playthrough, and perhaps new content when it becomes available (yes, you could do this with an alt, but for those who don't like alts, they could essentially create a new main and feel like they're still building on something).
-Simply something to do for those people who have the time and want to level a progeny through all the classes and collect all the potential benefits.
Depending on how the system is implemented there may be other forms of encouragement for taking part. I'm just brainstorming here.
Just want to throw this idea out there.
How about tie it into account age? Like a veteran bonus?
From launch, when you reach level 50 you can become a Progeny(1). Then after that you wait 1 year from your game account cration date to become Progeny(2). After five years, Progeny(5). This way you have a whole year to get it done. So long as they're small bonues, I think a new player could be envious but not too upset about it. Theres upsides to it and downsides to this idea. A new player could never get all the bonuses a veteran player could, but it also means a new player wouldn't feel the need or be required to grind through the game 5 times to be an equel.
@Elrandir
I'm all for brainstorming so I can appreciate the back and forth. I think the only way the progeny system could exist would be on a true hardcore server that had your account locked at one player. The progeny system then could give a person who wanted to reroll an out to do so while retaining some gear/faction/tradeskills without being gamebreaking.
And as far as your point on twinking, I'd disagree that it's the same - especially if progeny benefits compound. You can't combine twink gear for better stats. Also, in EQ twinking was scaled by levels/skills with exceptions of raw stat/regen items, which I've argued in many posts needed to change based on a recovery skill or enhancement skill etc. that the player would have to not be gamebreaking and follow a similar model. And as far as weapons, you wouldn't hit for anywhere close to max weapon damage with a 30/40 weapon until after Level 30. Damage cap until 10 was 29? If I recall correctly and 39? Until after 20. So EQ basically created recommended levels on gear behind the scenes which no one complained about as they were explainable by skill improvements.
And, caster twinks were even less noticeable than melee. They just had larger mana/hp pools with longer regen times. Flowing thought (mana regen) items didn't exist at launch and weren't common until many expansions later. So unless progeny benefits scaled like a twink and normalized at max level where the player would receive no further benefit, I'd argue it wouldn't be the same as twink gear.
*Edit - @Pantz - I'd be ok with that, and had mentioned something similar in a much earlier thread discussing the system. Having a system that would be similar to EQ's veteran rewards that would be tied to active account duration.
@Raidan
I see what you're saying, and I agree for the most part.
My point with the twinking vs rolling a progeny toon is that if gear acquisition is challenging, time-consuming and meaningful, then neither option is really going to be available to a truely 'new' player. If someone new to the game already has friends playing who are going to shower them with the best gear, they're probably also going to have significant help getting up in levels. I don't think this is what the progeny system is attempting to address. I may be reading the intent wrong, but it sounds like it's really only meant to be an extra 'nudge' to keep content replayable and keep the world populated at all levels as the game ages. For that reason, I think benefits should remain small for the progeny toons, so it remains a 'nudge' and not a 'shove.' And like in the system I was describing above, while a person who opted into the progeny system would have more options for benefits at max level, they wouldn't be able to have more benefits actually active, so the only real advantage at end game would be a little more flexibility. This way players who didn't feel they had the time to take part in the system wouldn't be left in a situation where they couldn't contribute 100% at end game.
@Elrandir,
I don't disagree with the obtaining gear point or a new player having difficulty acquiring gear, my argument is more directly towards the progression angle for the "main" or min/maxing. Even if I never actively raided, and only grouped (which will probably be likely) I would want to continually progress my character. And, if a major way to meaningfully progress at max level was to reroll or continually reroll, then I would even though I wouldn't be for the system.
So, I guess my point would be I'd rather have the alternate advancement available to the current player at max level or throughout progression (1-50) rather than continually having to reroll and obtain similar bonuses. But, as Sypderoptik had discussed in this thread and others previous to this, if it was more of an either/or scenario where it would be player preference on which route they'd like to take to obtain similar AA benefits, I could be in more agreement.
@Raidan
I'm with you. How about adding an additional twist:
What if there was a second option to roll an alt, level it without any bonuses, and then sacrifice it or assimilate it into your main for the progeny benefits.
-Advantage of the original option being your progeny character is more powerful than a standard toon while leveling it up.
-Advantage of the 2nd option being you don't lose your primary toon, but your alt (which you will lose when you sac it) has no benefit during the leveling process.
I am interested to see how this plays out. I will likely have a single main character that I never retire. Then I will just continuously level on an alt/permaprogeny. I actually prefer the meta levels. The places in EQ that I never got to visit in a group is embarrasing. I prefer all of those middle levels that have fun and interesting things to do.
I would be interested to see if faction activities persisted through generations.
+1 for adding the generation to the name
I am not really a fan of the idea of this. I always get attached to my main and don't really like the idea of being unable to obtain my maximum potency without progeny. This is part of why I like the ability to level all classes on one character systems as seen in ffxi, ffxiv, and a small number of others (I don't know that such a system would fit here because of the race locked class options amongs other things, though I would probably take it over not).
Enitzu said:spyderoptik said:As a guild leader, I'm a little worried guilds would be in flux with revolving characters in and out and having to re-gear/re-key people which can slow down overall progression. Myself and my officers don't want to be a huge guild, but losing characters to retirement would need us to grow larger to have this higher rotation in/out buffer (beyond people leaving the game). Gearing people out in raid gear only to have them kill off/retire their character can also slow progression a good bit for the overall guild which brings up questions like "you're retiring next week, could you let this other person spend their DKP/roll instead since it won't be usable?". I can see some weird macro (guild) issues with this mechanic (not that they can't be overcome, but something hadn't had to work with before). When a character retires, would they come off the roster or stay in the roster with a retired notation? Could this get cluttered over time with multiple iterations of the same person?
This is also my biggest concern. As someone who intends to run a hardcore progression based guild in Pantheon, the progeny system could in fact do a world of damage. If the benefits of it are too strong it is something that will have to be done in order to be a top tier competitor. If they are not that strong and only offer minor bonuses, you could have people that after a few months decide they want to main swap and just reroll. Causing a revolving door of new members needing to be brought in.
Now there are always people who will say 'but you don't HAVE to do anything, it's a choice" and that's true. But as someone who has been in top guilds in multiple games I can easily say that in order to be a top tier competitor in any game you use every part of the game to your advantage. So let's say the progeny system allows you to gain a 5% stat buff to your classes main stat. That buff to a main stat for any class would be huge. Maybe not at first but as the game progresses and the stats grow higher and higher it's an enormous jump up. Let's say progenies get an increase to a stat cap even, again that's a huge jump and would have to be done.
Now if the opposite is true and they gave only minor bonuses. Then what would the point of it be? The only benefit I see to it is if a person just does not have any interest in their class any longer. But if that's the case why not just reroll on an alt? The only way I would even think about doing this is if all of the crafting skills, faction reps, languages, gear, and AA points all remained. If I didn't have to redo all of the time sinks then maybe I would consider it. But even then it's a very weak maybe. Why would I want to basically destroy a character I spent a ton of time working on? Why not keep it and if I decide later on that I want to play it again I have that option.
There's just a lot more negative than positive in this idea for me.
Well said and I agree. I will just roll an alt (or five) and play them when taking a break from my main. The only class in EQ1 that I rolled and then scrapped was my enchanter...no offense to you CC types out there. I played my shaman most of the time, but also played a cleric, paladin, ranger and necromancer. Of course, I am not a raider, but I can see how the progeny system could cause some headaches for raiding guilds.
spyderoptik said:Powergamers who will retire and come back up will know where to go and what to do, possibly be twinked and/or powerleveled (buffbots/etc). Their dependency on other low level (likely legit new) characters will be limited. It may "populate" lower level zones, but it'll probably be populated with people who honestly don't interact much/any with new people. It's just not what they're there for, bonuses are the reason they retired their main. If they wanted to linger around low zones, they'd be rolling alts not killing off their main.
If I were to retire my main, the time I'd be lingering around low level content would be pretty limited and with the people I'm bringing over into the game (and will meet in the game) will have plenty of assistance to blast through getting caught back up (as I'd do for them with buffbots, trash clears to bosses/camps/etc).
It'd be as efficient as possible as we'd be down a raider as they're catching back up so the sooner they get caught up the sooner that void is refilled. Trampling low level content will be an understatement. They won't be there to meet "new" people and smell the flowers, they're likely there to get their bonuses as min/maxers. This is why I go back to the AA system is a better fit for that type of player.
More casual players coming up or doing this are probably going to be frustrated often, we'll have most of the low level named spawns/camps locked down with upper level characters to get friends/guildmates their progency bonuses and back to raid status as quickly as possible. You can't fault their friends/guildmates for trying to get them caught back up in levels and gear to play with their mains again.
It sounds good on paper, but this has pretty significant ripple effects depending on how it will be introduced.
Exactly this.
Personally I am not interested in the Progeny system but if it is introduced this is pretty much how I will deal with it if there is an edge as stated in other posts (2% war mit example). Most likely I will be grouped up with guild members running through their second or third time as well. My next question would be how many times can I do this? Can you retire a progeny for even more of a bonus a third time?
50/3 WAR LFG
Elrandir said:@Raidan
I'm with you. How about adding an additional twist:
What if there was a second option to roll an alt, level it without any bonuses, and then sacrifice it or assimilate it into your main for the progeny benefits.
-Advantage of the original option being your progeny character is more powerful than a standard toon while leveling it up.
-Advantage of the 2nd option being you don't lose your primary toon, but your alt (which you will lose when you sac it) has no benefit during the leveling process.
If the system was forced upon us, I would like that scenario better. However, as previously stated, one of the reasons I enjoy playing alts is for the alternate playstyle of my main, maybe being CC versus a tank, etc. It still would be hard for me at that point to want to sacrifice an alt in order to make my main better as I'm assuming the progeny sacrifice benefits would be unique. I would be more inclined to be ok with that proposal if I could receive equalivent benefits through an AA type system. But, then that would raise questions of what the "progeny benefits" would be. Simply an experience dump into your main? If that was the case, how much? And, if it's a lot, would people power level alts for quick experience dumps?
Again, I understand why the system is being proposed, but it's just a change that I think is trying to be creative and innovative, but can't be practically implemented in an MMO without a ripple effect outside of a RP type server that was locked to one character per account where the character aged (old CRPG style) and passed along benefits to their progeny upon death. Or, if a player wanted to reroll on a one character locked server they could pass on non-gameplay related perks such as faction/tradeskills/languages, etc. to their progeny.
I'd be all ears though if someone could creatively implement it without negatively affecting gameplay.
Still spitballing ideas here...
Some of the main issues here:
-- Many wouldn't want to retire their main.
-- Power gamers wouldn't really be encouraged to group with new players as they would level progeny toons in the most effecient way possible.
-- Many don't like the idea of having a non-maxed toon if they don't take part in the progeny system.
So here's another idea for how a progeny system could work:
When you reach max level, a new "Progeny Character Slot" is unlocked that is bound to your main. When you create this progeny character, nothing happens to your main--you keep him. The new progeny is the same race/class as the main and starts at level 1 with no bonuses. The progeny toon plays like any other character, only in addition to earning regular exp while out adventuring, he/she also earns "Progeny Exp" that can only be spent by your main character. This Progeny Exp could be spent by the main to purchase expendable buffs, like the Glyphs in EQ.
I know that I would blow through up to 50 aa's on a single raid sometimes in EQ. And then I'd have to go out and regain the exp in off-raid time so that I would have them available for the next. A system like this would ensure that there were characters out at all levels of play, earning however much Progeny Exp people felt willing to spend.
To encourage people to group with others with their progeny toons, there could be a bonus to the Progeny Exp gain for each non-progeny character the toon was grouped with.
The progeny toon would level up to max like a regular toon, and when they hit max level you could retire them to start a new progeny toon, the 'grand child' of your main. Again, same race/class and starting at level 1.
A major concern of mine is the impact that it will have on a guild roster with turnover of retiring characters and what it means in terms of overall guild progression (with a player coming off the roster for all practial senses completely or until caught back up to current raid status needs). If it's something significant enought to effect raids, expect raid focused guilds to have Progency requirements. This system should be part of an AA discussion, two different paths, two different sets of bonuses, and for two different types of playstyles (redoing older content vs grinding higher level content).
spyderoptik said:A major concern of mine is the impact that it will have on a guild roster with turnover of retiring characters and what it means in terms of overall guild progression (with a player coming off the roster for all practial senses completely or until caught back up to current raid status needs). If it's something significant enought to effect raids, expect raid focused guilds to have Progency requirements. This system should be part of an AA discussion, two different paths, two different sets of bonuses, and for two different types of playstyles (redoing older content vs grinding higher level content).
Not sure if this was directed at my last post. But if it is, under that system you wouldn't retire your main so no one would ever come off the roster. People would spend time on their progeny toons to gain exp for buffs the same way people did in EQ for glyphs. The only difference being that now that exp grinding would be done on the progeny toon rather than their main.
Perhaps progeny is a system that helps non instance raids from being "locked down"? Different guilds will have different rosters and progeny schedules (I would assume because most people levels at different passes) but there’s a chance that this system helps to alleviate the problem of the "top guild" from "camping" certain raid bosses, if that is even a possibility in pantheon (just a thought from someone who has admittedly never really experienced non instanced raid bosses (outside of vanilla WoW's very limited world bosses(and being horde we stood no chance against alliance anyways :P))
Not to mention I think it may be a good way to keep the roster "cycling" through members in a healthy way, so that guilds can be larger than the "raid size" but still work functionally and productively. :) Say your top cleric progenies to increase their cleric abilities (whatever the +bonus is for progeny), your #1 cleric "in waiting/on the bench" would then rotate into the fold. When Cleric #1 again reaches raid readiness, the #2 cleric progenies and the cycle continues. :)
think "1,2,3" (with #4 in waiting) > "2,3,4 (with #1 in progeny)" > "3,4,+1 (with #2 in progeny)" > "4,+1 ,+2 (with #3 in progeny)" etc. (extend rotaion numbers as needed :) (with the + meaning progenied character.)
I hope I expressed that in a legible way :) I can be bad at expressing my thoughts :S
Rachael
Personally i'm against the progeny system, hence my (thus far) abstaining from commenting..
But to me it poses two issues:
i) it takes grind to as close a 'meta' level as virtually possible. Grind as we know it, then grind ON the avatars themselves, in their virtual afterlife... Why, how, what for would anyone wish that..?..
ii) barring some level of thought, of a depth and genius that no offense but i have yet to see evident anywhere, it is a system that promotes two concepts:
[ii] a) emphasis on re-rolling rather than keeping your main character, entailing in turn a whole range of systems built just so as to promote this; otherwise, why/how would the team incentivise anyone to "reroll"? Ergo, rather than making sure systems and activities are in place that not only require, but actually emphasise the worth of an 'old' main toon, the game allows for a short span of make, level, reroll. Short is of course relative, yes, but i believe (no, i hope rather) you get my point. If not? Try and imagine what it would take to motivate people to reroll, try and then imagine what this should mean in turn regarding keeping your first toon and continuing to play with it. What your everyday activities would be in a Pantheon that emphasises work on your (old) main char, what those same everyday activities would be -not- in a Pantheon that expects you to reroll for progeny. Can you visualise the difference?
[ii] b) yet another level of "pixelated carrot envy", where even our characters themselves, for themselves, are a matter of comparison/contrast. Before even gear, accomplishments, titles, possessions, etc can come into place. How many more """carrots""" does the """mature""" Pantheon player need in order to just.. play the game? :)
Now before you say it, i comprehend both issues here: One, that commitments have been semi-officially made; including the bonuses being 'minor'. But allow me to see before i judge. Not just about the bonuses, but about the systems in place, about how the game shapes up so as to flesh out the philosophy behind progenies. And what this will entail in my average gameplay sessions. Two, that with a limited budget, it makes sense for the team to motivate altitis, as they have no hope of keeping us content-satiated. I still think however this is a very, very dangerous AND superficial approach to this problem. There are tertiary activities that could be worked on instead. They would necessitate the time investment from the players that this team would take advantage of so as to produce more content while we'd all be happily engaged IN said tertiary activities. I have mentioned this multiple times, and as usually, i found that to most, the context was alien to them. Despite my numerous explanations, only the surface was glimpsed.
Either way, it is a wait and see thing, granted. But.. in the meantime, i encourage those who haven't to go and have a look at those MMOs featuring progeny systems. And with the above in mind, to try and see how what i am describing here is evident in each and every one of said MMOs' systems.
(as always, this is a personal opinion, no offense or slight is intended)
Assuming it takes a long time to level, grind out rep, crafting, etc, no, I would not be interested in retiring my main, I'm more of a one character person. If the bonuses are too good to pass up (min/maxer here), then I would get thorn between investing in activities outside of adventure xp grind and my love for the game might go away.
I would be nice to have a dev give us more details on what is on the drawing board concerning bonuses to the child character.
Mekada said:I would be nice to have a dev give us more details on what is on the drawing board concerning bonuses to the child character.
Agree here. We are all speculating on what we think it will be. They may have a whole different idea. Without more information we can't really give any good answers.
My concern with the Progeny System is as follows. If there is a permanent benefit in stats or any other conceivable way it could give an advantage to someone who wants to max their abilities, than the Progeny System is not an optional path for you to take, it is a necessary thing you must do. If the benefit does not help someone be better than their piers- even in a tiny way, than there is no point to not just roll an alt. I believe keeping the lower level zones populated is very important in a game such as Pantheon but I have serious doubts about the Progeny System as we currently understand it being "an unnecessary option".
More than that, should my main who I retire be a gnome summoner but I want my next toon to be a monk- offspring of gnomes are gnomes, and gnomes cannot be monks.
Again, keeping lower level zones populated is important in such a group focused game and I don't know the answer of how to make it right.
So far as a possible alternatives or alterations go, I think it's reasonable to keep your current character and just have that character "have a child" and give that child a 5% xp boost. No permenant benefits that make you flat better than other people. Then again, what seperates this from just rerolling an alt? Should having a max level toon net you a slightly easier time leveling? It would be a reasonable incentive for people to get toons up to cap, keeping the lower level content populated while an exp increase small as 5% woudn't be considered OP.
edit: added last paragraph.