A Mob gets "tagged" / "aggroed" for a fight....
Let's discuss ideas or a system that protects those players that rightfully have rights to that mob and protects against kill steals. What do you all want to see in Pantheon? Also how should this relate to loot rights? Any games that had a really good system?
What if a higher level person comes along a mega kills mob when it was at 70% health? I still don't think they should be able to do that and have loot rights...
I was thinking what if the initial aggro or "tag" of the mob threw on a buff timer for the player or group to do their significant damage? It could be 20 to 30 seconds long or so but would protect it for player or group... If a mob was tagged by someone by mistake, you would have to make sure the buff came off before killing it to get credit.
Just thinking outloud here...
I like the old EQ system which is to say almost no system. Simple is better. I don't like the idea of the game forcing certain rules on players even if it is meant to stop kill stealing. Let the players deal with problems like this amongst themselves. This game is meant to be reputation based so players who kill steal others will soon find themselves with bad reputations.
I've been on both ends. I've been the low person on the totem pole, some jerk strolls through and WHAM my mob is like obliterated into tiny little pieces.
I've also been the one that walks through and everything dies within my view because I like to massacre everything in sight.
I rarely had any trouble with anyone and rarely anyone had trouble with me.
Times I did have troubles or someone else had trouble with me a good portion of conflicts were resolved through /tells.
So maybe once per year or less it was an actual issue.
Mileage varies I understand, but on my end over here I don't see a need to go messing around with extra rules.
I'm not against 50.00001% being the winner, however I think there could be some wiggle room, like say first group/raid to do 25% gets the lock, because it can be exploited using a raid that already has aggro established to forego your own tanking/healing to just hardcore dps and overtake a raid and KS them.
Biggest thing I do not want to see, some claim system where first damage gets it, this is retarded. 25% should be the absolute minimum amount required to claim a mob.
Personally I feel that there should be two types of tagging.
One for normal NPC's + Named and one for bosses.
Normal+Named: whoever does 50%+ of the damage gets it (aka normal eq rule). This would allow classic "power leveling"/gearing. Which is apart of the EQ culture. <3
Bosses: differently due to content denial via either "elitist hardcores" (blocking guilds on purpose) or just guilds simply being greedy with gear (to sell)... Once a raid or group/whatever kills an NPC (even if they log out), they're tagged for the kill for a certain amount of duration (worked out by VR; but atleast greater than the bosses respawn timer). While they're "tagged for the kill" (account based) on the boss, they're unable to kill, assist/help, or heal other players engaging it (as in nothing will work on them or the boss) and the loot table is ofc disabled for them too. This would allow other's to kill the boss in a natural rotation which would be far fairer on everyone on the server without using instances/hand holding/drama.
Vade said:Whichever person or group or whatever did 50.000001% more damage than the other gets the drops. Don't see a problem with this classic setup.
Yep, this is all you need. You don't want someone stealing your kill? Kill faster. Upset someone stold our kill? Get over it, mob will respawn shortly. But it was a raid boss and now won't respawn for X days? Next time kill it faster.
This should solve most issues. For everyone who wants it to be the whoever does more you need to realize that game populations and etiquette are no where near what they used to be in EQ1 days. This would cause massive issues that don't need to become issues. While all griefing cannot be prevented this is a simple fair solution that removes a huge ability of exploitation as well as removal of powerleveling. Also make the spawn times and locations of the rare bosses extremely random.
Normal enemies
Items: Whoever tagged it first
Exp: Damage split.
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Rare / Bosses
Items: Whoever tagged it first so long as they do 20% of damage
Exp: Damage Split.
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World Bosses
Items: Awarded to raid group based on roll based on percent of damage IE: Raid 1 does 10% Raid 2 Does 15% etc etc that is their chance of being awarded the loot. Allow raid groups that does receive the loot the ability to send it to any other group in the area.
Exp: Damage split.
Having been the victim and purveyor (Wizzie gotta have jboots to kite!) of kill stealing in my EQ 1 days, I see it as one of several key gameplay experiences that will mold a player into what they become at high levels. Without knowing the feeling of someone KSing/griefing you, how can you understand what you could potentially be doing to other players? While a simple or complex solution to the problem could be implemented in an artificial manner, I see no reason to rob the player base with "natural" means of creating conscientious players.
I'm a bit torn on this. On one hand, why purposely keep a system in place that can, and will, be exploited to the grief of other players? On the other, however, these things have a way of sorting themselves out. Players and guilds that choose to participate in griefing will soon find themselves with no friends, no groups, and no new recruits. I think for XP purposes, it should be a straight split. Your group does 10% of the damage, then you get 10% of the XP. For loot, first come, first served. Loot rights don't reset until the MOB does. Let the players sort out any bad behavior. After all, jerks are going to find ways to be jerks regardless, so let the game's social system do the job without all the hand-holding.
Pyye said:A Mob gets "tagged" / "aggroed" for a fight....
Let's discuss ideas or a system that protects those players that rightfully have rights to that mob and protects against kill steals. What do you all want to see in Pantheon? Also how should this relate to loot rights? Any games that had a really good system?
The fewer artificial rules placed on the players/world, the better. Let crap happen.
I liked EQ2 system better. Whoever hit the damn thing first, encounter locked.
Done
I believe in these types of games, EQ1 and VG, the community does a good job of handling these situations on their own. Players who act and behave poorly easily build bad reputations by word of mouth. Plus, most guilds don't want any bad rep so if a member steals your kill and you notify their guild leader or an officer they tend to handle it accordingly.
Other than that non-raid mobs should be whoever does 50.00001% damage first while raid mobs should be whoever engages first. Keep it simple and let the community sort it out. The less the game has to handle and the more the community can handle the better.
Vade said:Whichever person or group or whatever did 50.000001% more damage than the other gets the drops. Don't see a problem with this classic setup.
What?....... What happened to open-world contested mobs? Thought that was the point. With this 50%+ stuff you basically make it less a contest and more a body count. Besides I also believe in non-interference. You shouldnt be able to help or hurt if you are outside the person/group/raid. From the one side I dont want your help, Id want to see what me and those with me are capable of on our own. From the other side it just sounds like a way to bypass the challenge of content or to screw over smaller guilds to me.
It should be first come first serve. Who ever gets first claim gets the loot/xp for themselves or their group, provided they get the kill. If they wipe its up for grabs again.
Thunndar said:I liked EQ2 system better. Whoever hit the damn thing first, encounter locked.
Done
I agree. I thought this worked. It is certainly simple.
You attack first, it's yours. You die, it's fair game.
Pyye said:A Mob gets "tagged" / "aggroed" for a fight....
Let's discuss ideas or a system that protects those players that rightfully have rights to that mob and protects against kill steals. What do you all want to see in Pantheon? Also how should this relate to loot rights? Any games that had a really good system?
Good gosh *NO!* please please please NO. They implemented this stupidity in WoW (and EQ2) and it totally dumbed down the game. There was no sense of anticipation or urgency, no danger, no open world. Whoever aggroed a mob "owned" it, including trains. So, it wasn't an open world of people playing freely - it was a lot of people all playing their own games in the same place, It ruined MMORPGs
Do *NOT* cow tow to the dumb-down movement.
No to encounter locking, would rather things be completely open and trains be possible (it made for interesting dungeons crawls).
This game will have in-game guides/GMs like Everquest (I'm near certain I've read this somewhere) so it's not like you can't /petition if you're being intentionally harassed (and tells aren't solving). There's consequences for other players intentionally griefing and there's eyes that will be in the game that can take action unlike many "modern" games that are on autopilot with nobody with power that can appear in game to deal with.
Let's not cheese this out.
fazool said:Pyye said:A Mob gets "tagged" / "aggroed" for a fight....
Let's discuss ideas or a system that protects those players that rightfully have rights to that mob and protects against kill steals. What do you all want to see in Pantheon? Also how should this relate to loot rights? Any games that had a really good system?
Good gosh *NO!* please please please NO. They implemented this stupidity in WoW (and EQ2) and it totally dumbed down the game. There was no sense of anticipation or urgency, no danger, no open world. Whoever aggroed a mob "owned" it, including trains. So, it wasn't an open world of people playing freely - it was a lot of people all playing their own games in the same place, It ruined MMORPGs
Do *NOT* cow tow to the dumb-down movement.
Tagging and doing damage is a must (maybe a small minumum % required). Simple aggro of mobs to be considered "owned" or locked is not a good thing.
I realize many do like the 50+ rule, but I'm thinking something lower would be exceptable.
Now, I'm just thinking out loud, but maybe 20%+. The reason I say 20% or more is that it seems like devs enjoying using 75% or 80% to fire off boss AoEs or special attacks. Seems like a logical place to see if you'll be succesful or not.
Edit: I'm also ok if they just left it open.
From my personal experience in EQ, the activity of kill-stealing works itself out naturally when a game system is built on forced high-level group play AKA "people like you". For all you EQ1 players out there that made it to high levels, did you ever really lose kills? Perhaps you fought over a rare spawn (which I actually like the idea of), but even in this case, a person's reputation could be irreparably tarnished by such actions.
If Pantheon's objective is to build a player-driven world without the crutches provided in modern MMOs, then do as little as possible (if anything) to prevent player issues from working themselves out naturally. Just like you can't fight all of your childs battles for them, for fear of creating an unhealthy adult; you can't fight all of our battles for us, for fear of creating an unhealth high-level player base.
DynamiteFizzlebum said:From my personal experience in EQ, the activity of kill-stealing works itself out naturally when a game system is built on forced high-level group play AKA "people like you". For all you EQ1 players out there that made it to high levels, did you ever really lose kills? Perhaps you fought over a rare spawn (which I actually like the idea of), but even in this case, a person's reputation could be irreparably tarnished by such actions.
Actually a pretty good point. Getting blacklisted/shunned in a game that's group/guild dependent is probably not a long-term wise choice. Good luck on corpse recovery, getting into raid guilds (which may have people who would take issue with you joining), etc. I'd imagine it's not the same PUG end-game content as some of the current crop of games are. Reputation actually matters and having a bad reputation is not something you want as a label later levels.
FYI keep in mind, I was NOT stating an opinion. I was just simply opening this up for discussion, which as you can see, has different philosophies.
I like the open world content of EQ and its rules (for the record). I am hoping the model of Pantheon is reputation matters, and it will be a struggle for anyone or any guild if they get black-listed!
However...
What scares me a bit, I played Archage thru Alpha, Beta, then live... There was a super large guild that did whatever they wanted and it ruined the entired game, or should say, changed the entire game atmosphere for the worse. If you did not wear their guild tag, they disregarded your rights to anything and would capitalize on any situation. Keep in mind this is entirely possible in open world. Most of us are assuming that everything will be about respect and honor and those not complying will suffer. Not if they took this route... It literally changed the game to the point people left the game. This is scary because the game was a REALLY fun game before this happened. Just food for thought.
Anyone like the idea of first to tag a mob gets an 'advantage' in regards to % damage being done? (note: not actual damage)
Say a multiplier that would allow for fluctuation in regards to various things (ie; level of those doing damage, level of monster, etc). Kind of think of it as a xp buff against people agro, heh
Say a level 15 character is fighting higher level mobs and con'ing them red/yellow etc and here comes along a level 20 character to grief the lower level player and KS all the mobs.
With the given scenario, the modifier would balance the scales a little, so this wouldn't be as easy for the higher level character to grief, if the lower level character still applied the necessary qualities of a good player to out dual the higher level character.
just a thought I had regarding previous encounters :)
I personally don't like encounter locking, it's stops me from getting help when I need it the most or helping those who took on more than they could handle and need assistance. Plus all the other variant issues mentioned about reputation and the like are a sign of a healthy community in my eyes.