Amsai said: I know folks dont like encounter locking. Maybe there could be certain exceptions or rules that werent hard locks. But at some point limitations are necessary so that we can have a challenging game. I dont want zergs. And I see outside help as a form of cheating. I dont think you can successfully infinitely scale content either. Maybe something like a range of players would work better...... but not as many as you want.
What???????
Edit: not asking you to expand on your "thoughts"... more incredulous reaction of shock
Krixus said:Baldrith said:I don't see any value in locking a mob. I would say simply, the first one who hits it gets the credit for it. That method is pretty fair and even tho you may get the occasional jerk who will sneak a hit in before you do, it will limit mob-stealing that does tend to be a problem in MMOs.
I also think that anyone should be able to damage the mob etc, but the first hit gets the credit and experience. When in a group then the xp is distributed between the party as is the loot.
How does that limit kill stealing? If anything it makes it substantially easier. An established group could be on a camp for hours and someone else could come in and tag a mob and it's theirs? That'd be way easier to exploit than having to do 50+% of the damage. Again, the solution seems worse than the problem here.
Because once you are fighting a mob it cannot be stolen. How doesn't that help stealing? I have played both systems and get burned much worse by the one where someone can just start hitting a creature you are killing and get the credit because they did more damage than you. I like to fight hard mobs when I'm leveling and there is nothing worse than having some high level jerk just steal it to be mean.
From what I can tell from either Amsai or Baldrith's posts is other forums, neither of you have much experiance with orginal EQ and must have played some fairly unfair games.
Don't worry, you'll be okay in Pantheon once you get your feet wet and will understand more of what others here are talking about...
Nuemcy said:From what I can tell from either Amsai or Baldrith's posts is other forums, neither of you have much experiance with orginal EQ and must have played some fairly unfair games.
Don't worry, you'll be okay in Pantheon once you get your feet wet and will understand more of what others here are talking about...
You are correct. I didn't play EQ at all until just the last few weeks. I was a UO player at the time of EQ. I was, however, a very big fan of EQ2 and Vanguard, which is pretty much why I'm here :)
Baldrith said:Krixus said:Baldrith said:I don't see any value in locking a mob. I would say simply, the first one who hits it gets the credit for it. That method is pretty fair and even tho you may get the occasional jerk who will sneak a hit in before you do, it will limit mob-stealing that does tend to be a problem in MMOs.
I also think that anyone should be able to damage the mob etc, but the first hit gets the credit and experience. When in a group then the xp is distributed between the party as is the loot.
How does that limit kill stealing? If anything it makes it substantially easier. An established group could be on a camp for hours and someone else could come in and tag a mob and it's theirs? That'd be way easier to exploit than having to do 50+% of the damage. Again, the solution seems worse than the problem here.
Because once you are fighting a mob it cannot be stolen. How doesn't that help stealing? I have played both systems and get burned much worse by the one where someone can just start hitting a creature you are killing and get the credit because they did more damage than you. I like to fight hard mobs when I'm leveling and there is nothing worse than having some high level jerk just steal it to be mean.
Because of exactly what I described. Someone who has no "right" to the mob can come and just take it without even having to worry about the people they are stealing it from even being able to out damage them. That makes stealing even easier. You're at a camp you've cleared and have been pulling from and someone else shows up and happens to land their shuriken/arrow/dd first and now it's theirs? How is that a cure for kill stealing?
Krixus said:Baldrith said:Krixus said:Baldrith said:I don't see any value in locking a mob. I would say simply, the first one who hits it gets the credit for it. That method is pretty fair and even tho you may get the occasional jerk who will sneak a hit in before you do, it will limit mob-stealing that does tend to be a problem in MMOs.
I also think that anyone should be able to damage the mob etc, but the first hit gets the credit and experience. When in a group then the xp is distributed between the party as is the loot.
How does that limit kill stealing? If anything it makes it substantially easier. An established group could be on a camp for hours and someone else could come in and tag a mob and it's theirs? That'd be way easier to exploit than having to do 50+% of the damage. Again, the solution seems worse than the problem here.
Because once you are fighting a mob it cannot be stolen. How doesn't that help stealing? I have played both systems and get burned much worse by the one where someone can just start hitting a creature you are killing and get the credit because they did more damage than you. I like to fight hard mobs when I'm leveling and there is nothing worse than having some high level jerk just steal it to be mean.
Because of exactly what I described. Someone who has no "right" to the mob can come and just take it without even having to worry about the people they are stealing it from even being able to out damage them. That makes stealing even easier. You're at a camp you've cleared and have been pulling from and someone else shows up and happens to land their shuriken/arrow/dd first and now it's theirs? How is that a cure for kill stealing?
That would be stealing as well, but in my experience it happens more rarely than someone high level coming in and getting the kill from a mob you were fighting.
Krixus said:Baldrith said:Krixus said:Baldrith said:I don't see any value in locking a mob. I would say simply, the first one who hits it gets the credit for it. That method is pretty fair and even tho you may get the occasional jerk who will sneak a hit in before you do, it will limit mob-stealing that does tend to be a problem in MMOs.
I also think that anyone should be able to damage the mob etc, but the first hit gets the credit and experience. When in a group then the xp is distributed between the party as is the loot.
How does that limit kill stealing? If anything it makes it substantially easier. An established group could be on a camp for hours and someone else could come in and tag a mob and it's theirs? That'd be way easier to exploit than having to do 50+% of the damage. Again, the solution seems worse than the problem here.
Because once you are fighting a mob it cannot be stolen. How doesn't that help stealing? I have played both systems and get burned much worse by the one where someone can just start hitting a creature you are killing and get the credit because they did more damage than you. I like to fight hard mobs when I'm leveling and there is nothing worse than having some high level jerk just steal it to be mean.
Because of exactly what I described. Someone who has no "right" to the mob can come and just take it without even having to worry about the people they are stealing it from even being able to out damage them. That makes stealing even easier. You're at a camp you've cleared and have been pulling from and someone else shows up and happens to land their shuriken/arrow/dd first and now it's theirs? How is that a cure for kill stealing?
This is contested everyone that can pull the mob has the "right". Just because you cleared the trash doesnt mean you should have first dibs. You know what the 50 percent crap will spawn it will spawn people rolling with 6 wizards or some other insane burst DPS and wait for a well balanced group to pull and then burn it down so fast you dont have a chance. Thats what has happened before and bound to happen again/
Kalgore said:Krixus said:Baldrith said:Krixus said:Baldrith said:I don't see any value in locking a mob. I would say simply, the first one who hits it gets the credit for it. That method is pretty fair and even tho you may get the occasional jerk who will sneak a hit in before you do, it will limit mob-stealing that does tend to be a problem in MMOs.
I also think that anyone should be able to damage the mob etc, but the first hit gets the credit and experience. When in a group then the xp is distributed between the party as is the loot.
How does that limit kill stealing? If anything it makes it substantially easier. An established group could be on a camp for hours and someone else could come in and tag a mob and it's theirs? That'd be way easier to exploit than having to do 50+% of the damage. Again, the solution seems worse than the problem here.
Because once you are fighting a mob it cannot be stolen. How doesn't that help stealing? I have played both systems and get burned much worse by the one where someone can just start hitting a creature you are killing and get the credit because they did more damage than you. I like to fight hard mobs when I'm leveling and there is nothing worse than having some high level jerk just steal it to be mean.
Because of exactly what I described. Someone who has no "right" to the mob can come and just take it without even having to worry about the people they are stealing it from even being able to out damage them. That makes stealing even easier. You're at a camp you've cleared and have been pulling from and someone else shows up and happens to land their shuriken/arrow/dd first and now it's theirs? How is that a cure for kill stealing?
This is contested everyone that can pull the mob has the "right". Just because you cleared the trash doesnt mean you should have first dibs. You know what the 50 percent crap will spawn it will spawn people rolling with 6 wizards or some other insane burst DPS and wait for a well balanced group to pull and then burn it down so fast you dont have a chance. Thats what has happened before and bound to happen again/
Oh come on, just because there isn't a written contract doesn't mean there wasn't a way that 99.9% of people adhered to. If you break a camp and are actively pulling from it, if you're sitting a a spawn waiting for it, it's your camp. In your locking scenario all someone else has to do is follow you down and be quicker on the trigger even though they put in none of the work to clear the area or trigger the spawn, etc, etc. Every one of these ideas has downsides as large or larger than the original issue.
Amsai said: I am getting a clearer picture. This is now less about tagging and locking and more about EQ ettiquette. You have to remember current, throwback, and P1999 are all full of the type of asshatery you seem to think wony happen. Plus there will be other players from other Old School games some even older than EQ noy to mention new players that never experienced the old games. Are we really just gonnago with "it worked in EQ". I hate to tell you guys but this wont end well. Besides there were different oldschool game cultures. Would it suprise you to know that some of what would be considered proper in EQ was rude in XI. Complaining about another group getting the mob you just wiped too would be considered dishonorable and a good way to get a bad rep in XI. Afterall they did what you could not, you should be congratulating them. There isnt really a right or wrong here. But I think some of the things you ask for are at best wishful thinking. But hey if they do everything the EQ way abd it works out Ill eat my hat. I just greatly doubt that they will or that it would even work out half as good as you hoped. Not being negative, just being realistic.
Using P1999 as an example is ridiculous. 90% of the population is level 60. It takes YEARS between expansions, years and years, so this huge majority of the player base only have a handful of gratyifng, meaningful encounters and the result is a cluster.
Amsai said: I didnt use only P1999. Basically take any MMO that currently is running. Look at the average maturity and the extreme competitiveness. You honestly think that wont come to Pantheon? Can you absolutely say that people will be civil and do camp checks and wait until its their turn? If its not the actual rules then I would say not. But if it is an open world game with contested mobs. Im pretty sure most people will pull first and let the pantheon sort it out.
There is no way to tell what todays culture of player will be like when faced with an MMO like Pantheon, I agree, there will be those who think they can out pull or out gun anyone and everyone. No problem, let them pass on by and do what they want or else see just how they contest to those that know how to play with the game that is being formed. The only thing I can say is, we'll see what happens.
The idea I presented earlier would mitigate that to some degree and forstall some of the asshatery that you mention
all previous MMOs being equal...this one may suprise you
Amsai said: I didnt use only P1999. Basically take any MMO that currently is running. Look at the average maturity and the extreme competitiveness. You honestly think that wont come to Pantheon? Can you absolutely say that people will be civil and do camp checks and wait until its their turn? If its not the actual rules then I would say not. But if it is an open world game with contested mobs. Im pretty sure most people will pull first and let the pantheon sort it out.
I'm a huge cynic, and the bottom line here is that all of us are making biased assumptions. I hope they don't design the game in anticipation of people being asshats.
Both 50%+ and first tag have negative consequences. I've seen first hand what happens with a first tag in an open world contested MMO. It turns into a battle of who can write the better claiming bot. The script wars and packet sniffer tool usage was rampant in FFXI and i'd like to avoid that happening here. With a first tag method, this will without a doubt happen again.
As far as doing the majority of the damage? It's been my experience that this quickly turns in zerg guilds dominating with numbers. I'm personally not a fan of this method either but it's definitely better than first tag.
What we really need is a new system no one has thought of. Make it so!
Aldie said:Both 50%+ and first tag have negative consequences. I've seen first hand what happens with a first tag in an open world contested MMO. It turns into a battle of who can write the better claiming bot. The script wars and packet sniffer tool usage was rampant in FFXI and i'd like to avoid that happening here. With a first tag method, this will without a doubt happen again.
As far as doing the majority of the damage? It's been my experience that this quickly turns in zerg guilds dominating with numbers. I'm personally not a fan of this method either but it's definitely better than first tag.
What we really need is a new system no one has thought of. Make it so!
Aye aye! what he said :)
Amsai said: I admit I dont like bot prgrams and the like but at least they are doing something that is bannable. With the 50%+ you can complain all you like but its actually part of the rules so its unlikely the devs would do anything to help when the rules say its ok.
It was never okay, it was just hard to prove.
Wow what a simple, yet complex issue.
So fraught with openings for griefers, exploiters, gold sellers, power levelers, etc. and so forth.
So as I see it everyone would like to defeat:
50.1% of damage (1 and 2 are 3 all in play)
0.1% of damage (if others can help kill then 2 and 3 apply)
TLC (trivial loot code) where rare and quality items from Mobs lower than you would not drop defeating some of the one-shot farming by bots and general farming players.
BOE where rare and quality items are bind on equip.
TLC defeats lots of bots, gold selling and farming issues.
BOE defeats defeats lots of bots, gold selling and farming issues.
I am going to toss out a suggestion that I expect many folks will not like... but from my experience with EQ 1 right through to the current generation of MMOs I have never enjoyed mobs being locked or using a system where 50.X%+ of dmg done gets the credit.
It seems more often than not to cause problems in the community and typically leads to someone not having a good time.
One of the things in Pantheon that should, in my opinion, stay in the past is tagging/mob locks. Simply provide rewards for everyone who can meaningfully participate in a fight, even if they are not in the same group.
1 - It will encourage your community to help each other out with various PvE elements (Dungeons/Camps/Guy or gal who is in trouble/etc)
2 - Rare items will still be rare because of their drop rate.
3 - Entire guilds will not blow up over rare spawns being stolen.
4 - You will not have to be online for umteen hours taking shifts with other guildies so that the guild is the only one holding a specific spawn point.
I have experienced the older systems from both sides. Very rarely does it gets worked out to everyone's satisfaction. But more often someone get told... "No you don't get to play here today because I am" and then one side or the other demontrates who is superior.
It is a Game... Pantheon from what I understand is meant to be the players vs environment so include as many of the players as possible. They in turn will help the entire community to have a good time.
Now that being said in the orginal EQ if a mob was substantially higher level than your character, you could barely do more than a few points of damage to it (cough cough anyone remember exploiting higher level damage shields and heals to level a friend as a druid)... so you would not get credit, maybe they could include a group contribution indicator for folks that are helping out lower level friends. Where as from the opposite side as a higher level player you just didn't get exp... but still had a chance to have rare items drops.
I loved the original EQ for many reasons... one of them was not the way people got credit for killing mobs. It was not fun and just a exercise in how quickly you could hit the button, combined with who had the faster DD spells. I remember a few classy people who simply went with wizard, so they come overwhelm the system and farm whatever items they wanted out from under others.
Now I do realize one of the arguements that will come up is and has already been mentioned, "the community will police itself or black ball whoever does something like that". No, sorry it will not work that way except in rare instances. Most of the time whoever is the "problem" just continues on their way, has their guild backing them even if they are being a pain, or only bahaves badly while using one specific character. GMs typically would also not get involved unless you could prove that a player was griefing someone.
So in the end just give everyone credit who participates meaningfully, I really believe that the community overall will be improved for it and people will have more fun in the long run. Otherwise you are adding an element to Pantheon that, while not a form of PvP in the traditional sense, is pitting players against one another in a form that is not constructive or enjoyable for eveyone involved.
Leave mob tagging and 50.X+% of dmg done in the past please.
Just my opinion though.
Cheers,