Ondark said:Krixus said:Ondark said:No minimap and all sounds nice. But some kind of awareness minimap which shows enemys your char percieves around him would be interesting too. Some classes could be better at it and some worse. And id like some type of pathfinding too. Just recently bought a brand new pc and Sonic Radar II was installed on it, its a programm that lets you see which direction sound is coming from in games. Found it pretty interesting.
No dynamic maps, period. Use your own senses. What you're talking about is just plain cheap.
What matters to me is the ability to percieve stuff in game like i could in real life. In RL i would see some traces like broken branches and twigs/or mabye not or if a giant is around i surely would hear/see him pretty fast since my field of vision is usualy larger then in games (unless hes a ninja giant :) ) but a game never is as detailed or cant be ...even sounds or something sneaking up on you i could hear faint noises. A monster bee flying around i would hear/see it from far away... still in games at times you wont sense such stuff, even if in RL (if it would exist there) you surely would. To make up for such shortcomings i would try an awareness system in my game. And the good part is you could give some characters better hearing or awareness and some worse. It depends on armor too, wearing a steel helmet wont make your awareness better. Still you cant block off a players sight by 80% if he wears a plate helmet. But you could lower his awareness. In short i dont want worse awareness of my surroundings in a game then i would have in Reallife. This would add some reality for me. Unless you give me a Occulus rift and a superb sound system in game which is very close to reality.
My ideal game is like RL but in a fantasy magic world setting.
But i understand if you dont like such stuff, afterall its just something unreal that should not exist in a ideal game world, still to me its a tool to even out a game worlds shortcomings. I can play it without such stuff its just a hunch of me that it could be used for some interesting tactics untill games can present even slight changes to your surroundings.
Did you play EQ? Sounds were an integral part of the game. That's exactly my point, you CAN use your senses in the game. You don't need a radar.
When you play a game in which you actually have to learn the zones, you'll have a newfound appreciation. Your sense of adventure will be enhanced when you can legitimately get lost. Your sense of satisfaction when you master an area will be enhanced. Your connection to the game, your bond with the zones in which you spend hours and hours, will be greater.
Raidan said: /Agreed Krixus And, I'd be curious how many people (not specifically directed at Ondark) that are in favor of a visual awareness or HUD system play with their in-game audio on mute with external music playing. And @Ondark, your system wouldn't be realistic either. If you're truly adding realism, many/most players would have visual and auditory exclusion in a life or death situation (which EQ normally was) and also would get tunnel vision where your field of vision should narrow further than what is normal. That is why most military/law enforcement etc. try to get realistic scenarios to simulate the stressful factors, but even still, they usually occur. And, many have critical incident anemsia as well where they can't recall specifics about the event until days (weeks, if ever). Basically, long story short, realism isn't a good argument unless true real life scenarios could be replicated. Even if VR is 100% required one day, It would be hard to replicate the realism, and, if that does get close to occuring, you will see a whole different level of elitism going on in gaming.
What u wrote surely is correct, but real Heroes shouldn fear death you can ressurect in games you cannot in RL .Fear of death is lower in my fantasy world even if i talked about some sort of reality its just real to a certain point :) i dont wish to die in RL from playing a game after all :). If i would be in a situation of life or death in RL i can imagine all thoose effects to happen.
@Krixus im a EQ Veteran started in Beta been playing for 7 Years and its still the Mmo i loved most. Been thru all recent Mmos and all lack things EQ had or added stupid quest hubs or meaningless death or loot like candy or fast lvls, meaningless raids, soloability to drag in a big crowd fast. But they forgott its not for the long therm what they created it doesnt even cover what a MMOPRG should be about.
After all im happy if its close to EQ with new graphics cool spell effects (like EQ had) and alot to do at Max lvl like AAs.
Ondark said:Raidan said: /Agreed Krixus And, I'd be curious how many people (not specifically directed at Ondark) that are in favor of a visual awareness or HUD system play with their in-game audio on mute with external music playing. And @Ondark, your system wouldn't be realistic either. If you're truly adding realism, many/most players would have visual and auditory exclusion in a life or death situation (which EQ normally was) and also would get tunnel vision where your field of vision should narrow further than what is normal. That is why most military/law enforcement etc. try to get realistic scenarios to simulate the stressful factors, but even still, they usually occur. And, many have critical incident anemsia as well where they can't recall specifics about the event until days (weeks, if ever). Basically, long story short, realism isn't a good argument unless true real life scenarios could be replicated. Even if VR is 100% required one day, It would be hard to replicate the realism, and, if that does get close to occuring, you will see a whole different level of elitism going on in gaming.
What u wrote surely is correct, but real Heroes shouldn fear death you can ressurect in games you cannot in RL .Fear of death is lower in my fantasy world even if i talked about some sort of reality its just real to a certain point :) i dont wish to die in RL from playing a game after all :). If i would be in a situation of life or death in RL i can imagine all thoose effects to happen.
@Krixus im a EQ Veteran started in Beta been playing for 7 Years and its still the Mmo i loved most. Been thru all recent Mmos and all lack things EQ had or added stupid quest hubs or meaningless death or loot like candy or fast lvls, meaningless raids, soloability to drag in a big crowd fast. But they forgott its not for the long therm what they created it doesnt even cover what a MMOPRG should be about.
After all im happy if its close to EQ with new graphics cool spell effects (like EQ had) and alot to do at Max lvl like AAs.
All disagreements need to end like this ;)
Krixus said:Canno said:Also wanted to add for maps:
I wouldn't mind a detailed map of your starting city/newbie area since you 'grew up' there.
After that general maps with, for instance, major roadways and city locations - things you'd generally know. Look at wherever you live - you probably know the city/town very well, much of the outlying areas, and how to get to other towns near by. I'd be fine with the same system in game.
Rest could be filled in via fog of war, notes you write in, or even time spent in a zone. Heck, in EQ, with a moderate amount of time in a zone, you didn't need a map (printed or otherwise) anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a cartography skill but not to make zone/area maps, but as a means to add adventure. I'd much sooner buy a map to an encounter over a zone map I can get for free online. That would add real and persistant value to the skill.
If you grew up there or knew the area, why would you need a map? What happened to learning areas and using landmarks? Turn left at the windmill and follow the path till it turns left and look to your right and there will be a gap between 2 hills blah blah blah.
b...e...cause I didn't actually grow up there? It's a game, I was placed there at a later age. :) A completed map simulates having grown up there.
Gurt said:I actually think that Pantheon should have mapping. With a twist.
Mapping or Carteography should be a skill that everyone (or almost everyone) has access to, the skill is toggleable and when toggled on consumes paper, and ink to produce a map item that the player can then use for his own personal benefit, so long as he carries it with him. Higher skill levels means more resolution and/or accuracy. If we want to get really crazy at higher skill levels you could potentially allow for duplication of zone maps to sell to other players.
+1
Pyye said:I just can't imagine playing a game like this with external music only... I serious wonder why someone would allow themselves to NOT get fully immersed.
Music is an aid to immersion. It allows you to filter out background noise and concentrate 100% on what you are doing. I play music all the time when I am programming for instance. Can't write a line of code without some music playing and I find the same to be true in-game. Plus there is normally only a small amount of in-game music so for variety I use Spotify in the background with a 12+ hour playlist so I don't have to hear the same songs over and over again.
So yeah I generally mute all in-game sounds in an MMO after a week or two.
Pyye said:I just can't imagine playing a game like this with external music only... I serious wonder why someone would allow themselves to NOT get fully immersed.
I agree. Music, and sound in general, when done well is a huge deal. It sets the mood, atmosphere, and tension. Furthermore, birds chirping in the background can mean the difference in a zone feeling alive or just dead. That said, if I'm just mindlessly farming when solo or on one of those 1 hour trecks to another city, I'll put netflix on the second monitor or play some music to break the monotony.
I can see if you are grinding somewhere, I used to do that in EQ. Matter of fact there are some songs that remind me of old EQ days when I hear them like Red Hot Chili Peppers "Scar Tissue" or Nelly "I'm Like a Bird" for example... I always wish sometimes I could go back in time and experience all that again.
All other times though I need to hear all the extra sounds in a game, gnoll grunts, bridge creaking, beetle legs as they walk, etc... Love that stuff!
Pyye said:I can see if you are grinding somewhere, I used to do that in EQ. Matter of fact there are some songs that remind me of old EQ days when I hear them like Red Hot Chili Peppers "Scar Tissue" or Nelly "I'm Like a Bird" for example... I always wish sometimes I could go back in time and experience all that again.
All other times though I need to hear all the extra sounds in a game, gnoll grunts, bridge creaking, beetle legs as they walk, etc... Love that stuff!
Lol, so sidetracked, but I think of EQ hearing soo many songs from the late '90s, early '00s. I thought I was the only one.
I like me games to be as immersive as possible - who wouldn't, especially role-players, right?
But immersion doesn't always mean realism - it's a game in which you are a physical and/or magical hero! I personally don't find it feels very heroic to get lost, so the immersion is lost for me.
A) The game engine does not present your senses with something real enough to effectively allow your sense of direction and memory to find your way around and
B) even if it did, your RL sense of direction and memory are probably not great anyway. I don't want to have to study cartography and orienteering in RL so that my fantasy character can find their way around without embarassment.
For me, this, like almost every other feature in the game, means there is a balance between realism, immersion and fun.
Personally, I want there to be pre-made maps with fog-of-war type discovery that shows my current location and allows me to make notes. The maps don't have to be uber-accurate - they can be nice and 'realistic' but to not have them is one of those cases of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting 'realism' over 'convenience' IMHO.
Yes, perhaps you could have to train in-game in cartography to get better detail maps or orienteering to enable the 'you are here' pointer. That would be cool. You could also pay for or discover high-quality maps with additional points of interest and buy spells that mark your location etc. That'd be cool.
disposalist said:I like me games to be as immersive as possible - who wouldn't, especially role-players, right?
But immersion doesn't always mean realism - it's a game in which you are a physical and/or magical hero! I personally don't find it feels very heroic to get lost, so the immersion is lost for me.
A) The game engine does not present your senses with something real enough to effectively allow your sense of direction and memory to find your way around and
B) even if it did, your RL sense of direction and memory are probably not great anyway. I don't want to have to study cartography and orienteering in RL so that my fantasy character can find their way around without embarassment.
For me, this, like almost every other feature in the game, means there is a balance between realism, immersion and fun.
Personally, I want there to be pre-made maps with fog-of-war type discovery that shows my current location and allows me to make notes. The maps don't have to be uber-accurate - they can be nice and 'realistic' but to not have them is one of those cases of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting 'realism' over 'convenience' IMHO.
Yes, perhaps you could have to train in-game in cartography to get better detail maps or orienteering to enable the 'you are here' pointer. That would be cool. You could also pay for or discover high-quality maps with additional points of interest and buy spells that mark your location etc. That'd be cool.
I despise this idea. It is so cheap ez mode to have your character's location displayed on your map. What happened to getting lost? Think of what that does to the sense of adventure. Again, you're not talking about a map, you're talking about GPS. Part of using a map in the real world is figuring out where you are. To me, if you always know where you are in game, you lose a huge part of what makes up "adventure".
Krixus said:disposalist said:I like me games to be as immersive as possible - who wouldn't, especially role-players, right?
But immersion doesn't always mean realism - it's a game in which you are a physical and/or magical hero! I personally don't find it feels very heroic to get lost, so the immersion is lost for me.
A) The game engine does not present your senses with something real enough to effectively allow your sense of direction and memory to find your way around and
B) even if it did, your RL sense of direction and memory are probably not great anyway. I don't want to have to study cartography and orienteering in RL so that my fantasy character can find their way around without embarassment.
For me, this, like almost every other feature in the game, means there is a balance between realism, immersion and fun.
Personally, I want there to be pre-made maps with fog-of-war type discovery that shows my current location and allows me to make notes. The maps don't have to be uber-accurate - they can be nice and 'realistic' but to not have them is one of those cases of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting 'realism' over 'convenience' IMHO.
Yes, perhaps you could have to train in-game in cartography to get better detail maps or orienteering to enable the 'you are here' pointer. That would be cool. You could also pay for or discover high-quality maps with additional points of interest and buy spells that mark your location etc. That'd be cool.
I despise this idea. It is so cheap ez mode to have your character's location displayed on your map. What happened to getting lost? Think of what that does to the sense of adventure. Again, you're not talking about a map, you're talking about GPS. Part of using a map in the real world is figuring out where you are. To me, if you always know where you are in game, you lose a huge part of what makes up "adventure".
Lol hey thanks. Pretty combatative to opinions not like yours eh? And I thought I'd made a pretty even-handed and reasoned case.
Do you not appreciate the idea that, not actually being a chosen hero of the gods in real-life or actually existing in the game world myself that some representation of the abilities of one's in-game persona might need 'translating'? That the sense of direction of my heroic in-game self might need to be represented in some way so as not to leave me feeling like he is pretty un-heroic when it comes to knowing where the hell he is?
Perhaps we should also fight like we don't have hero muscles? Or cast only spells available in the local public library on the high street?
Does that help to explain I'm not quite so dispicable and looking for a cheap ez mode? I actually suggested quite a few different possibilites. Maybe calm down and have a re-read.
disposalist said:
Lol hey thanks. Pretty combatative to opinions not like yours eh? And I thought I'd made a pretty even-handed and reasoned case.
Considering your consistently defensive responses without actually addressing anything anyone says, it's a bit ironic to tell someone else to calm down.
disposalist said:I actually suggested quite a few different possibilites.
No, you didn't. You suggested 2. "shows my current location" and "'you are here' pointer." Those were your 2 suggestions.
If you want to know where you are at all times, I don't know what to tell you. What happened to learning a zone? Learning landmarks? Getting lost and then finding your way again? It is my opinion, that you should never ever be able to know where you are on a "map". That is not a map, that is GPS. Pull a map out of your glove compartment, if you have one, that is a map. The LCD in your dash is not a map, it is GPS.
I didn't say I despised YOU, I despise the idea of your GPS. Every single one of the "possibilities" you described was the same. You want to be shown your location on a map. This is a virtual world, getting lost is part of it, learning the world if part of it. I stand by exactly what I said. It is cheez ez mode to have GPS in a game like this. It is the exact opposite of what made a game like EQ great.
disposalist said:"Perhaps we should also fight like we don't have hero muscles? Or cast only spells available in the local public library on the high street"
Also, if you can't argue without a straw man, well...
disposalist said:"The game engine does not present your senses with something real enough to effectively allow your sense of direction and memory to find your way around"
Seriously? You can't remember to go by the windmill and turn right until you reach the second undead tower? The game engine almost 17 years ago gave tens of thousands of people enough information to find their way around. At the risk of sounding arrogant, it seems to me that you are so used to playing shallow games where location has no meaning, with content you just RACE through, that you don't understand or appreciate what it's like to play in an actual virtual world. "You're in our world now" was so true. And you didn't need GPS.
I don't think I've pretended I'm presenting any ideal solution, I'm simply putting some ideas into the discussion.
I mostly try not to directly address what people say because I rarely find that I can't understand someone's opinion even if it is contrary to mine and direct and strong 'critique' does come off as aggressive.
*sigh* I'm not interested in engaging in forum combat, though it's tough not to be defensive when someone comes at you. I'll try harder to just join the threads and not be sensitive.
I'm not sure how being able to get lost and also, being able to learn an area to prevent being lost, is not an immersive experience. Realism and immersion go hand in hand because immersion is directly related to your ability to suspend your disbelief. By definition, something realistic requires very little suspension. The inability to get lost in a game is unimmersive as it gets and basically redefining the word.
Just sayin'.
Dullahan said:I'm not sure how being able to get lost and also, being able to learn an area to prevent being lost, is not an immersive experience. Realism and immersion go hand in hand because immersion is directly related to your ability to suspend your disbelief. By definition, something realistic requires very little suspension. The inability to get lost in a game is unimmersive as it gets and basically redefining the word.
As a basic principle I agree, but the problem with 'realism' is when you attempt it and it fails it's less immersive than if you used an analogy. I don't think realism and immersion do always correlate.
Art-style: As a basic principal, photo-realism must be the best way to make something immersive. But when you attempt photo-realism and fail it's just awful. When you go for an art-style that is representative and pleasing (and more easily consistent) it can be much more immersive. Graphic novels (cartoons to some) can be very immersive. Sometimes you get close enough to real that the odd jarringly obvious weirdness can be overlooked. Sometimes not.
Physics: There are some wonderful physics engines now and flying rag-doll enemies when you blow them up is wonderfully immersive, but when they do some of the ridiculous jigging or contorting that we've all seen it ruins that immersion.
Driving games: You cannot reproduce the controls and feedback of driving in your living room. Some people still prefer the 'simulation' style of driving games. Some dislike them because you cannot 'feel' the engine strain when you need a gear-shift or the drive wheels begin to lose grip when you pull a throttle trigger too hard. When the car goes off the track due to simulated reality that you had no feeling for it ruins the immersion.
I'm hoping that explains my feeling for my hero getting lost not being particularly immersive to me. Sure it would be better to have a landscape so realistic that each tree and rock is individual so that you just 'get' that indefinable sense of direction.
Let's not even go into this game 'reality' including gods and magic.
Having said all that, yes the GPS-pointer idea is probably a step too far. It was only a suggestion for discussion and I did say that maybe it should be a special spell so for just occasional use - like if you get lost! ;)
I said in another thread that I wouldn't respond as if attacked hehe. I'm hoping the above is taken as intended which is to enjoy a discussion of the issues. I understand the more 'hard core' suggestions, but I don't think positing a more moderate alternative is just 'wrong' is it? I feel a lot of what was done in EQ and VG that has now come to be considered 'hard core' and essential to getting back 'the good old days' of MMORPGs was actually just restrictions in technology. I'm pretty sure the devs/mods have said similar things. If they say "no minimap, no lfg tool, no auction house - we're experts - trust us" I will still disagree, *but* I *will* trust them and give it a go. I certainly would never insist they were wrong.
Here I am kinda 'defending' myself again - sorry! There's a line between responding and discussing and defending and attacking and I like to contribute to forums but am no match for the forum warriors ;)
Ok, so we've established that when you fail at something more realistic, its less immersive than succeeding at something less realistic.
Thankfully, we're talking about something pretty straight forward here. Not physics, or art styles, or even character controls. We're talking about creating a world that players have to learn, explore, perhaps even map, but without a GPS on a 4G network with complete coverage from everywhere on Terminus.
A map that is uncovered as I explore combined with some sort of compass is probably enough for me. If we can make our own marks on the map that would be swell.
I play a lot of openworld sandbox survival games and while I am pretty good at getting lost I can usually eventually make it to where I want to be and back again with those simple tools. (If I don't get eaten by a T-Rex first)
I do NOT want a super busy map & minimap prepopulated with markers of every type. Sometimes in games I feel like I’m just running from one quest marker to another and that's not what I am looking for here. I want to play the game, not the UI.
Edited to add that I like where we might obtain maps by buying some, complete a quest for others. My favorite was finding a map in a coffer like FFXI had. Mobs could drop partly filled out maps perhaps.
I love the idea of being able to make a map........ Cartography skill and also having to level up sense heading to get an arrow to show....... By the time you have learned a zone by leveling up and using the map skill..... There should have already been a great sense of discovery and achievement
I like the map creation idea, sounds like an interesting addition to the game and anothr thing to work towards achieving as a player! I think after hearing and thinking about the idea it becomes my preference!! Could you also have this then as a bit of a trade skill so that players who have made comprehensive maps can also sell those to players who are too lazy to do so!
If this option was not going to be in place and they decided to have no maps at all that were able to be toggled whilst on the run, I thought i might throw in the concept of having a sign post at the entry points of zones where you can run to and check out the overview of the zone only whilst standing there at the sign post, this makes for a neat little spot for people to meet / bump into other players as well, and maybe a seasoned played might be able to help a younger player find their way if they were to cross paths at the sign post with the map etched onto it.
disposalist said:Dullahan said:I'm not sure how being able to get lost and also, being able to learn an area to prevent being lost, is not an immersive experience. Realism and immersion go hand in hand because immersion is directly related to your ability to suspend your disbelief. By definition, something realistic requires very little suspension. The inability to get lost in a game is unimmersive as it gets and basically redefining the word.As a basic principle I agree, but the problem with 'realism' is when you attempt it and it fails it's less immersive than if you used an analogy. I don't think realism and immersion do always correlate.
Art-style: As a basic principal, photo-realism must be the best way to make something immersive. But when you attempt photo-realism and fail it's just awful. When you go for an art-style that is representative and pleasing (and more easily consistent) it can be much more immersive. Graphic novels (cartoons to some) can be very immersive. Sometimes you get close enough to real that the odd jarringly obvious weirdness can be overlooked. Sometimes not.
Physics: There are some wonderful physics engines now and flying rag-doll enemies when you blow them up is wonderfully immersive, but when they do some of the ridiculous jigging or contorting that we've all seen it ruins that immersion.
Driving games: You cannot reproduce the controls and feedback of driving in your living room. Some people still prefer the 'simulation' style of driving games. Some dislike them because you cannot 'feel' the engine strain when you need a gear-shift or the drive wheels begin to lose grip when you pull a throttle trigger too hard. When the car goes off the track due to simulated reality that you had no feeling for it ruins the immersion.
I'm hoping that explains my feeling for my hero getting lost not being particularly immersive to me. Sure it would be better to have a landscape so realistic that each tree and rock is individual so that you just 'get' that indefinable sense of direction.
Krixus said:There should not be any "live" map in game that tells you where you are. Use landmarks, use your memory, learn the zones. If there's cartography or some other form of static map making, whatever. But an on screen minimap flies in the face of everything this game is about.