I really don't get the hate for maps I'm seeing. I understand EQ didn't have them. I don't know about UO, but I know that FFXI did (you had to purchase them BTW), and every game I've played since had them. I don't ever recall saying, "Man, this is too easy. I wish I didn't have this map."
Just to be clear, this is what we pro-mappers want:
Not this:
Just so you guys are aware, to get the middle-earth style map, you don't even have to have an interactive map within the game. Nobody should be against that sort of thing, what we should be against is any form of positioning that tells you where you are in an area. If I press M and see a map of the known world, with maybe some zone-connections and thats it, we're all good.
Wanderica said:I really don't get the hate for maps I'm seeing. I understand EQ didn't have them. I don't know about UO, but I know that FFXI did (you had to purchase them BTW), and every game I've played since had them. I don't ever recall saying, "Man, this is too easy. I wish I didn't have this map."
Just to be clear, this is what we pro-mappers want:
Not this:
To be clear, I think the majority of us are saying they want maps to be meaninful and require effort to get. We want it as a traseskill, and a means for more player interaction. In ye olde times of yore, maps were a big deal. They should be a big deal in Pantheon.
"I'm Aradune, today is my first day as an adventurer. Before this I shoveled pig turds at my da's farm. I have my beaten up water flask, some biscuits, a lock of hair from my sweetheart, a rusty beat up sword that we used to dig up potatoes, and ...this giant, beautiful, detailed, map of the entire world complete with trees and rivers and towns and gopher holes. Oh, the details! This thing is probably worth more than our farm!"
That's silly. The only map Aradune should have is one he tried to draw on a piece of bark with chalk, and all it should have on it is his farm, the nearest town where he buys pop-tarts and pig pooper scoopers. Silly Aradune.
The FF11 population here is interesting to me. I have a very good friend that I've always nerded it up with. He missed the EQ train somehow. Tried making a paladin in 99, made it to lvl 7 in Gfay, never played again. His biggest MMO experience was FF11. He tried getting me to play it, so I made a monk, thought I'd go find some new armor, ended up with some weird thong ......thing. That and the goofy UI/controls ended that experience for me. Anyway, tangent, he always went on about how hard it was, and how it got so dumbed down over time, and how old school it was, until we had these types of conversations. My question to him, as it is to the other FF11 members on these forums, would be:
How do you know if you've never experience the MMO without maps? Genuine question.
-Tralyan
Wanderica said:Just to be clear, this is what we pro-mappers want:
I am actually fine with this map as a world map. However, I want a zone map similar. Just show me the zone lines and the terrain, ie mountains and such. Give me the ability to create points of interest myself. I peronsally don't want a map that shows me everything. Let me put what is important to me on it.
Tralyan said:How do you know if you've never experience the MMO without maps? Genuine question.
-Tralyan
As someone who played both games, I can easily say EQ was considerably harder. Just knowing where to go was a challenge. Having to level sense heading constantly (we all made macros for it, let's be serious here) and waiting for it to work just to know which direct you were going. Using /loc so many times to find places. And let's not forget the /loc hotkey that everyone had just in case you were about to die in an area you didn't know.
The thing about it is that there wasn't anything really 'hard' about it. It was just another major inconvenience really. We all found ways around it and once you got past your first couple weeks then everyone knew exactly what to do to have the no map issue be a thing of the past. Hell I still have my binder with every zone map through PoP in it. I could stop at any time and find where ever I needed to go. Tedium doesn't equal hard. It just equals a time sink.
Enitzu said:Tralyan said:How do you know if you've never experience the MMO without maps? Genuine question.
-Tralyan
As someone who played both games, I can easily say EQ was considerably harder. Just knowing where to go was a challenge. Having to level sense heading constantly (we all made macros for it, let's be serious here) and waiting for it to work just to know which direct you were going. Using /loc so many times to find places. And let's not forget the /loc hotkey that everyone had just in case you were about to die in an area you didn't know.
The thing about it is that there wasn't anything really 'hard' about it. It was just another major inconvenience really. We all found ways around it and once you got past your first couple weeks then everyone knew exactly what to do to have the no map issue be a thing of the past. Hell I still have my binder with every zone map through PoP in it. I could stop at any time and find where ever I needed to go. Tedium doesn't equal hard. It just equals a time sink.
I didn't make a macro for it.. I bound it to a movement key ;)
EQ was differnet. It didn't have in game maps to start with but players simply made their own and posted them online. You also spent so much time in a zone (levelling) you got to know where everything was.
I posted before that I don't see cartography as being anything but a make busy distraction in game. After someone does it once it will all be online to look at.
In order to make cartography viable it should be used to open up special quests, encounters or rewards - possibly as a special-map-for-sale model - not actually mapping the world.
Canno said:Enitzu said:Tralyan said:How do you know if you've never experience the MMO without maps? Genuine question.
-Tralyan
As someone who played both games, I can easily say EQ was considerably harder. Just knowing where to go was a challenge. Having to level sense heading constantly (we all made macros for it, let's be serious here) and waiting for it to work just to know which direct you were going. Using /loc so many times to find places. And let's not forget the /loc hotkey that everyone had just in case you were about to die in an area you didn't know.
The thing about it is that there wasn't anything really 'hard' about it. It was just another major inconvenience really. We all found ways around it and once you got past your first couple weeks then everyone knew exactly what to do to have the no map issue be a thing of the past. Hell I still have my binder with every zone map through PoP in it. I could stop at any time and find where ever I needed to go. Tedium doesn't equal hard. It just equals a time sink.
I didn't make a macro for it.. I bound it to a movement key ;)
EQ was differnet. It didn't have in game maps to start with but players simply made their own and posted them online. You also spent so much time in a zone (levelling) you got to know where everything was.
I posted before that I don't see cartography as being anything but a make busy distraction in game. After someone does it once it will all be online to look at.
In order to make cartography viable it should be used to open up special quests, encounters or rewards - possibly as a special-map-for-sale model - not actually mapping the world.
I do see your point about the cartography skill, however I must respecfully disagree with your assessment.
The difference is that, in EQ, that was your only option. To either download the maps and create a file cabinet to hold each one, or to just use the land marks and sense heading.
I'm a firm believer in the power of options and convenience over more work. People are lazy. I'm willing to bet that, given the option, most folks will opt to spend in game money to buy maps from other players that they can just pull up in game, over taking the time to print out maps from websites and create paper directories.
And you know what? Even if some people did decide to just upload their own maps on websites for other people to print, and even if some people did choose to do that instead of partake in the game mechanic, that's fine too. What I want is for as many reasons for player interaction as possible. Cartography is something new. If it works, it just might be a really neat, fresh, innovative MMO staple. If it's a bust? ....I believe a major tenent of Pantheon is Risk vs Reward. Take a risk, try something new, make it interesting and fun, and see what happens.
As far as I know it's never been done like that before. Pantheon is going to be a mixture of the old, and the new. I like that.
Imagine entering a new dungeon, or a new region. Someone is standing at the entrance, peddling his maps for newcomers.
Map maker A: /Auction "WTS Detailed Map of Guk! Trap doors! Short Cuts! Mob placements and guard roaming paths! Max Lvl Cartographer! Never get lost in Guk again! 200plat!"
Map maker B: /Auction: "WTS Basic Map of Guk! Entrances! Exits! Major paths! 25plat!"
That's a whole new dynamic to a game that I think is pretty cool.
-Tralyan
No minimap and all sounds nice. But some kind of awareness minimap which shows enemys your char percieves around him would be interesting too. Some classes could be better at it and some worse. And id like some type of pathfinding too. Just recently bought a brand new pc and Sonic Radar II was installed on it, its a programm that lets you see which direction sound is coming from in games. Found it pretty interesting.
Yeah no maps at all is too much IMO. Maps are an acutal thing that fits for the time setting (medieval/dark ages). Hell, so is a compass. Quest marking and GPS I agree doesnt belong. It doesnt make the player engage the world or explore and actually just gives him the answers to everything. Still, if I have a quest that says the bad guys are camped up to the east of "Maintown" I should have a tool that tells me which way Maintown is in relation to where I am now, and a compass so ill at least know which general direction I am going.
The whole "no maps/compass at all" thing is (IMO) unrealistic, and serves no purpose but to frustrate players just for the sake of frustrating and throwing another artificial barrier to gameplay because some decades old game did it, and (of course) everything was great back then .... when viewed in hindsight and through nostalgia goggles.
P.S I dont hate minimaps either, but mostly just because im sure we'll have trackking abilities and what not where is actually makes sense. No actual details on it. OR! Any tracking would be added to the compass UI pointing you in the right direction (more realistic that way).
Tralyan said:Canno said:Enitzu said:Tralyan said:How do you know if you've never experience the MMO without maps? Genuine question.
-Tralyan
As someone who played both games, I can easily say EQ was considerably harder. Just knowing where to go was a challenge. Having to level sense heading constantly (we all made macros for it, let's be serious here) and waiting for it to work just to know which direct you were going. Using /loc so many times to find places. And let's not forget the /loc hotkey that everyone had just in case you were about to die in an area you didn't know.
The thing about it is that there wasn't anything really 'hard' about it. It was just another major inconvenience really. We all found ways around it and once you got past your first couple weeks then everyone knew exactly what to do to have the no map issue be a thing of the past. Hell I still have my binder with every zone map through PoP in it. I could stop at any time and find where ever I needed to go. Tedium doesn't equal hard. It just equals a time sink.
I didn't make a macro for it.. I bound it to a movement key ;)
EQ was differnet. It didn't have in game maps to start with but players simply made their own and posted them online. You also spent so much time in a zone (levelling) you got to know where everything was.
I posted before that I don't see cartography as being anything but a make busy distraction in game. After someone does it once it will all be online to look at.
In order to make cartography viable it should be used to open up special quests, encounters or rewards - possibly as a special-map-for-sale model - not actually mapping the world.
I do see your point about the cartography skill, however I must respecfully disagree with your assessment.
The difference is that, in EQ, that was your only option. To either download the maps and create a file cabinet to hold each one, or to just use the land marks and sense heading.
I'm a firm believer in the power of options and convenience over more work. People are lazy. I'm willing to bet that, given the option, most folks will opt to spend in game money to buy maps from other players that they can just pull up in game, over taking the time to print out maps from websites and create paper directories.
And you know what? Even if some people did decide to just upload their own maps on websites for other people to print, and even if some people did choose to do that instead of partake in the game mechanic, that's fine too. What I want is for as many reasons for player interaction as possible. Cartography is something new. If it works, it just might be a really neat, fresh, innovative MMO staple. If it's a bust? ....I believe a major tenent of Pantheon is Risk vs Reward. Take a risk, try something new, make it interesting and fun, and see what happens.
As far as I know it's never been done like that before. Pantheon is going to be a mixture of the old, and the new. I like that.
Imagine entering a new dungeon, or a new region. Someone is standing at the entrance, peddling his maps for newcomers.
Map maker A: /Auction "WTS Detailed Map of Guk! Trap doors! Short Cuts! Mob placements and guard roaming paths! Max Lvl Cartographer! Never get lost in Guk again! 200plat!"
Map maker B: /Auction: "WTS Basic Map of Guk! Entrances! Exits! Major paths! 25plat!"
That's a whole new dynamic to a game that I think is pretty cool.
-Tralyan
The problem is that in order for maps to be in game there is a file that they go into. Just like in the current EQ. So those files online will just be downloaded and put into the game from there. The only way to avoid it is to make maps similar to ESO treasure maps where it opens when the item itself is clicked on. Which means maps would need to take inventory space. I'm not against the idea but it does have quite a few more issues involved with it. You would have to store those maps somewhere for the 50 or so zones in game. Would really hurt both bank and inventory space.
I don't disagree that it could add a whole nother element to the game but I don't really agree with it. It sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth honestly.
Enitzu said:Tralyan said:Canno said:Enitzu said:Tralyan said:How do you know if you've never experience the MMO without maps? Genuine question.
-Tralyan
As someone who played both games, I can easily say EQ was considerably harder. Just knowing where to go was a challenge. Having to level sense heading constantly (we all made macros for it, let's be serious here) and waiting for it to work just to know which direct you were going. Using /loc so many times to find places. And let's not forget the /loc hotkey that everyone had just in case you were about to die in an area you didn't know.
The thing about it is that there wasn't anything really 'hard' about it. It was just another major inconvenience really. We all found ways around it and once you got past your first couple weeks then everyone knew exactly what to do to have the no map issue be a thing of the past. Hell I still have my binder with every zone map through PoP in it. I could stop at any time and find where ever I needed to go. Tedium doesn't equal hard. It just equals a time sink.
I didn't make a macro for it.. I bound it to a movement key ;)
EQ was differnet. It didn't have in game maps to start with but players simply made their own and posted them online. You also spent so much time in a zone (levelling) you got to know where everything was.
I posted before that I don't see cartography as being anything but a make busy distraction in game. After someone does it once it will all be online to look at.
In order to make cartography viable it should be used to open up special quests, encounters or rewards - possibly as a special-map-for-sale model - not actually mapping the world.
I do see your point about the cartography skill, however I must respecfully disagree with your assessment.
The difference is that, in EQ, that was your only option. To either download the maps and create a file cabinet to hold each one, or to just use the land marks and sense heading.
I'm a firm believer in the power of options and convenience over more work. People are lazy. I'm willing to bet that, given the option, most folks will opt to spend in game money to buy maps from other players that they can just pull up in game, over taking the time to print out maps from websites and create paper directories.
And you know what? Even if some people did decide to just upload their own maps on websites for other people to print, and even if some people did choose to do that instead of partake in the game mechanic, that's fine too. What I want is for as many reasons for player interaction as possible. Cartography is something new. If it works, it just might be a really neat, fresh, innovative MMO staple. If it's a bust? ....I believe a major tenent of Pantheon is Risk vs Reward. Take a risk, try something new, make it interesting and fun, and see what happens.
As far as I know it's never been done like that before. Pantheon is going to be a mixture of the old, and the new. I like that.
Imagine entering a new dungeon, or a new region. Someone is standing at the entrance, peddling his maps for newcomers.
Map maker A: /Auction "WTS Detailed Map of Guk! Trap doors! Short Cuts! Mob placements and guard roaming paths! Max Lvl Cartographer! Never get lost in Guk again! 200plat!"
Map maker B: /Auction: "WTS Basic Map of Guk! Entrances! Exits! Major paths! 25plat!"
That's a whole new dynamic to a game that I think is pretty cool.
-Tralyan
The problem is that in order for maps to be in game there is a file that they go into. Just like in the current EQ. So those files online will just be downloaded and put into the game from there. The only way to avoid it is to make maps similar to ESO treasure maps where it opens when the item itself is clicked on. Which means maps would need to take inventory space. I'm not against the idea but it does have quite a few more issues involved with it. You would have to store those maps somewhere for the 50 or so zones in game. Would really hurt both bank and inventory space.
I don't disagree that it could add a whole nother element to the game but I don't really agree with it. It sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth honestly.
Sounds like this is just a situation where fun disagreements of gameplay preference happens.
In my head, I was actually thinking the maps would take up inventory space. Make it so that you have to make decisions about what you're bringing on your adventures. To me that's not, as someone said above, a restriction just for the sake of creating artificial barriers, as it is an attempt at realism in a fantasy game, which I'm all for.
Us nerds are resilient in the face of hardship in our games, no matter how often we whine. Give me a game that's demanding, where consequences are real, where I'm able to make friends and tackle challenges, and I'll endure. The inventory restrictions will be a pain to some, and a new challenge to others. When I think of my favorite titles, EQ for MMO's, and Elder Scrolls for single player RPGs, they were great experiences that both had inventory challenges. So make my maps take up room.
Either way, I'll play whether they have maps or not, as long as there is no mini-map or GPS. Those two things would cause me to not sub, unfortunately.
-Tralyan
First, things we shouldn't have:
1. The infamous "!" and "?" above npc's heads and a GPS telling you where to go. It kills immersion and shouldn't be in the game.
2. A map that you instantly know where everything is by opening it up.
3. A mini-map
I think a cartography skill would be AWESOME! That mixed with fog of war would be ideal. Consuming paper and ink is a great idea as well and the higher your skill, the more detailed the map gets.
Ondark said:No minimap and all sounds nice. But some kind of awareness minimap which shows enemys your char percieves around him would be interesting too. Some classes could be better at it and some worse. And id like some type of pathfinding too. Just recently bought a brand new pc and Sonic Radar II was installed on it, its a programm that lets you see which direction sound is coming from in games. Found it pretty interesting.
No dynamic maps, period. Use your own senses. What you're talking about is just plain cheap.
Krixus said:No dynamic maps, period. Use your own senses. What you're talking about is just plain cheap.
Probably means something like Ranger tracking ... there needs to be some type of HUD to show where the tracked NPC's are. I agree with no minimap but maybe just one that opens up when you have an active tracking/sense ability. A HUD compass where the tracked objects direction is highlighted would work too.
A map that you open and shows where everything is at just takes away every bit of adventure and exploration that my wife and I want from a game like this. We don't want to open a map and go oh nothing up north no reason to go that way. We want to say... hey what's this way... and then run off in that direction for the start of our next adventure.
Also wanted to add for maps:
I wouldn't mind a detailed map of your starting city/newbie area since you 'grew up' there.
After that general maps with, for instance, major roadways and city locations - things you'd generally know. Look at wherever you live - you probably know the city/town very well, much of the outlying areas, and how to get to other towns near by. I'd be fine with the same system in game.
Rest could be filled in via fog of war, notes you write in, or even time spent in a zone. Heck, in EQ, with a moderate amount of time in a zone, you didn't need a map (printed or otherwise) anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a cartography skill but not to make zone/area maps, but as a means to add adventure. I'd much sooner buy a map to an encounter over a zone map I can get for free online. That would add real and persistant value to the skill.
Canno said:Also wanted to add for maps:
I wouldn't mind a detailed map of your starting city/newbie area since you 'grew up' there.
After that general maps with, for instance, major roadways and city locations - things you'd generally know. Look at wherever you live - you probably know the city/town very well, much of the outlying areas, and how to get to other towns near by. I'd be fine with the same system in game.
Rest could be filled in via fog of war, notes you write in, or even time spent in a zone. Heck, in EQ, with a moderate amount of time in a zone, you didn't need a map (printed or otherwise) anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a cartography skill but not to make zone/area maps, but as a means to add adventure. I'd much sooner buy a map to an encounter over a zone map I can get for free online. That would add real and persistant value to the skill.
If you grew up there or knew the area, why would you need a map? What happened to learning areas and using landmarks? Turn left at the windmill and follow the path till it turns left and look to your right and there will be a gap between 2 hills blah blah blah.
Honestly, i would be completely good with no maps. Just let sense heading skill make my compass more accurate and at max skill have it display my current location (coords ofc) on or under the compass. That way I don't have to hit a hot key every few seconds when I'm trying to find a friend or guildie. Maps wouldn't make or break the game for me unless they did the whole 'GPS' thing with quest information. Even showing group mates or guildies on the map wouldn't bother me. This just so happens to be one of those things that any way it goes makes minimal if any difference to me. I know some people are adamant about it however.
So my question to the ones who are adamant for or against maps is this, what features about maps would make you play or not play the game?
Enitzu said:...So my question to the ones who are adamant for or against maps is this, what features about maps would make you play or not play the game?
If they had the immersion-breaking punctuation garbage like WOW, with ? and ! over NPC's heads. If they had dynamic maps that showed moving objects on maps. If they have coordinates.
Those are things that would make me not excited to play the game.
I've had an epiphany:
The problem with maps dumbing down the game and ruining immersion is that they don't act like real-world maps.
A real world map shows you the land and the basic contens and locations. Then you have to look at the map, figure out where on the map you are and which direction you need to go to find something.
In games, what is different is that the maps show where you are as a live cursor moving along the map. As well, the maps show other moving objects/npcs/mobs/players.
Those maps are not "maps" those are zone dashboards that ruin immersion.
I would be totally OK with maps (especially if made by a player's cartography skill) if the map is 100% totally completely and utterly STATIC and never (ever) has any changing/moving items on it, including yourself.
I want to stare at a map and try to figure out by looking around me, where I am on the map. I don't want /loc and I don't want anything live on the map.
Frankly, I think the original EQ maps were supposed to be this which is why they had the map editing tools so you could put your own info on the map, but that morphed and got exploited into a spoon-fed, lead-you-by-the-nose training wheel tool. And minimaps are insultingly worse.
"The FF11 population here is interesting to me. I have a very good friend that I've always nerded it up with. He missed the EQ train somehow. Tried making a paladin in 99, made it to lvl 7 in Gfay, never played again. His biggest MMO experience was FF11. He tried getting me to play it, so I made a monk, thought I'd go find some new armor, ended up with some weird thong ......thing. That and the goofy UI/controls ended that experience for me. Anyway, tangent, he always went on about how hard it was, and how it got so dumbed down over time, and how old school it was, until we had these types of conversations. My question to him, as it is to the other FF11 members on these forums, would be:
How do you know if you've never experience the MMO without maps? Genuine question."
-Tralyan
I'll try to answer this for you.
SWG was my first MMO, so I missed EQ. I had just started college when EQ blew up, and spending money every month for a game just wasn't possible for me. I did, however, play FFXI for some time, and there are (or were) more similarities than differences between those two concerning gameplay. I have since gone back and played P99 with no maps, and found it more of a hassle than anything. It is totally immersion breaking for me to tab out and look at a map pulled up on a webpage. Honestly, there is little difference between an in-game map and one pulled up on a webpage, especially today when so many people have secondary monitors, and don't even need to tab out to view them. With in-game maps, at least, the devs have control over information displayed. Put another way, it could mean the difference between labeled buildings, landmarks, zone entrances, respawn points, etc; or simply a rudimentary map showing the basic lay of the land via an in-game map.
Old EQ Atlas maps: These are the maps I had pulled up when playing P99, and I would be willing to bet that many EQ purists advocating no maps are on the same site. I didn't have to look for a thing. For East Commonlands alone, there are 9 maps showing everything I could possibly want to find.
All that said, I do understand the desire to build in that "lost" feeling. It makes the world feel bigger, more alive, and more dangerous, but I think that can be acheived with maps in the game as well. Just as in EQ, travel in FFXI was a daunting task. I invented new swear words on my first jaunt to Jeuno, and I didn't have a map past La Thiene Plateau because I was broke. The point is that having maps didn't take away from that lost feeling. A complex game, layered with many, many systems, that was unforgiving at even the lowest levels is what gave it that lost feeling.
And finally, Sense Heading is stupid. I'm sorry to all the EQ purists out there that will immediately disagree with this. I respect your opinions, but SH in P99 was just dumb. I macroed it to the W and A keys. It was maxed by level 7. I would have been better served with a compass and a stationary, no frills, rudimentary, basic b**ch map. That's essentially what I had anyway. I just had to use external websites and a pointless skill to get there.
Either way, maps or not, I'll be playing Pantheon. Of all of my concerns regarding the development of this game, maps honestly isn't that big of a deal. I just find this discussion interesting between old EQ players and the rest of us. I view maps as a quality of life improvement, while many of you tend to see them as a crutch. This is a great discussion. Keep it going.
Krixus said:Ondark said:No minimap and all sounds nice. But some kind of awareness minimap which shows enemys your char percieves around him would be interesting too. Some classes could be better at it and some worse. And id like some type of pathfinding too. Just recently bought a brand new pc and Sonic Radar II was installed on it, its a programm that lets you see which direction sound is coming from in games. Found it pretty interesting.
No dynamic maps, period. Use your own senses. What you're talking about is just plain cheap.
What matters to me is the ability to percieve stuff in game like i could in real life. In RL i would see some traces like broken branches and twigs/or mabye not or if a giant is around i surely would hear/see him pretty fast since my field of vision is usualy larger then in games (unless hes a ninja giant :) ) but a game never is as detailed or cant be ...even sounds or something sneaking up on you i could hear faint noises. A monster bee flying around i would hear/see it from far away... still in games at times you wont sense such stuff, even if in RL (if it would exist there) you surely would. To make up for such shortcomings i would try an awareness system in my game. And the good part is you could give some characters better hearing or awareness and some worse. It depends on armor too, wearing a steel helmet wont make your awareness better. Still you cant block off a players sight by 80% if he wears a plate helmet. But you could lower his awareness. In short i dont want worse awareness of my surroundings in a game then i would have in Reallife. This would add some reality for me. Unless you give me a Occulus rift and a superb sound system in game which is very close to reality.
My ideal game is like RL but in a fantasy magic world setting.
But i understand if you dont like such stuff, afterall its just something unreal that should not exist in a ideal game world, still to me its a tool to even out a game worlds shortcomings. I can play it without such stuff its just a hunch of me that it could be used for some interesting tactics untill games can present even slight changes to your surroundings.