People seem to be conflating map with GPS. People will map things, cool. Some people love that sort of thing. A player should never dynamically appear on an in game map. That is GPS and that is BS cheese that has no place in a game like this.
Krixus said:People seem to be conflating map with GPS. People will map things, cool. Some people love that sort of thing. A player should never dynamically appear on an in game map. That is GPS and that is BS cheese that has no place in a game like this.
I agree here. I don't mind having maps or even mini maps in game. But I don't want markers on my map for quest stuff or anything like that. Wouldn't mind if it showed my group members on the map so I can see where people are but that would be the only thing I would be ok with shown on a map
viirin said:Not having a map of any kind seems pointlessly frustrating. It doesn't add to realism... maps are obtainable in real life, and I imagine most of us would purchase them if available or do our best to make rudimentary maps of our own when venturing into the unknown.
I can definitely get behind the idea of a cartography skill... that could be a really interesting system, though it might be challenging on the devs' end. I'm not sure how they would approach it at the low levels where presumably maps would have a fairly low degree of accuracy. I also think that most areas should have purchasable maps, which I remember from FFXI... I thought that was a rather nice approach as well. If there's a cartography system, then you'd have the option of either buying or making your own... except for extremely remote/dangerous areas, where perhaps there are no maps available for sale. Or maybe make map-making an entire player-based system, and high level cartographers can sell off the maps they've made.
Maybe they could add a feature to mark a point of intrest. I do like the idea of a skill. I thik it would make people respect the area we play in. More active role other than the drone type systems that are in most MMO's now. I also do not want quest hints at all outside of the starter zones/areas if we have them.
Ox
No, we should have maps why in the world wouldn't we have maps, maps are good, I agree that we shouldn't have a quest indicator or exclamation/question mark highlighting an NPC's with quests, but having a map I think is important. I like to look out in the distance and see a possible place I can explore or look out at my map because I died and can still see my party members dots. I want the old school gaming back too, but lets not take away want is good in the new MMO's.
I like the create as you go mapping idea. I don't want to see minimaps with quest icons and pointers, but we pretty much know those won't be in anyway. Back in EQ you had to learn your way around, you'd use land marks to navigate and it worked but it took time. Then later on they introduced the in-game maps and they weren't really that helpful. And while I like the old navigate by landmarks, its also very reasonable to assume that ingame characters would make maps (pcs and/or npcs).
Maps are important, you should have the option to turn them off. Does it give you an unfair advantage? no.
If we have no in game maps, they will be created by Game Fans, and generated so you can print them off. Then we will be able to pen in what we want. So you clearly see what difference would it make? Also without maps running to your group, saves a ton of time if your far away. It can be too long to meet up with your friends.
I am not saying i totally disagree with you, on slowing the game down to make it hardcore. If this was the way it was intended, i would follow suit and agree lets keep it hardcore and lock out many features. Today i think we have to agree its becoming a standard, to know what direction your facing, and where abouts your on the map. Even if its a pop up map when we stop, hit M it still will be important to look at the book of maps.
I am not sure /loc will be used by the devs?? or we will even have those options. It does work well when trying to pin point your markers.
cassandrab said:No, we should have maps why in the world wouldn't we have maps, maps are good, I agree that we shouldn't have a quest indicator or exclamation/question mark highlighting an NPC's with quests, but having a map I think is important. I like to look out in the distance and see a possible place I can explore or look out at my map because I died and can still see my party members dots. I want the old school gaming back too, but lets not take away want is good in the new MMO's.
You're not describing a map, you're describing your iPhone.
lmao
Krixus said:cassandrab said:No, we should have maps why in the world wouldn't we have maps, maps are good, I agree that we shouldn't have a quest indicator or exclamation/question mark highlighting an NPC's with quests, but having a map I think is important. I like to look out in the distance and see a possible place I can explore or look out at my map because I died and can still see my party members dots. I want the old school gaming back too, but lets not take away want is good in the new MMO's.
You're not describing a map, you're describing your iPhone.
Quest arrows, glowing trails, and mini-maps have no place here as I think they can trivialize content, and eliminate any sense of or reason for exploration, but no maps at all? I think that's a bit overboard, and will add nothing to the game. We're all going to have maps pulled up in another window anyway. Now if you want to do away with them for dungeons, I'm all for that. Getting lost in that huge underground expanse, and running into big baddies is part of the journey, but a basic overland map with an X marking my location is needed (and that's all that's needed, btw). No landmarks, waypoints, or party markers is needed. I'm OK buying maps per zone from an NPC or player as well.
Look, I wasn't born with a map in my hand... or handed a map and told, see this, this will tell you where to go just look at it and follow the road here...
Why in the world would I want to find out what was interesting and what wasn't from a peice of paper?
I'm naturally inclined to explore the world, that is what I was built for and that is what makes me tick. That's why I want to explore this world and find out places that will thrill me and impress upon me what this world is about and how to go about navigating it.
If I took someone else's 'map' and said to myself, "This is the lay of the land", then why bother?..what's the point?
This topic has been discussed before but, I still believe not having developer created maps to be the best approach. As I look back I remember something special about not knowing where I was and using a lot of point of interest for navigating places. This single element to a game would add so much more immersion and exploration.
Another suggestion I had made in the previous discussions was in the map making area. Instead of just giving it into the hands of community to create graphics for use out of game, why not create a profession of sorts that can do this sort of thing in game?
my cp
-War
Warlored said:Another suggestion I had made in the previous discussions was in the map making area. Instead of just giving it into the hands of community to create graphics for use out of game, why not create a profession of sorts that can do this sort of thing in game?
my cp
-War
Or better yet, do it yourself
I create my own 'maps' (in my head, not ingame or otherwise)... as you stated Warlored, "As I look back I remember something special about not knowing where I was and using a lot of point of interest for navigating places".
This is exactly it, why chose to have someone else discover this information? Why not discover it yourself???
I don't see a need to have any profession or cartography skill that allows for some sort of ingrained ability for your 'avatar' to know where you are, why not "YOU" know where you are?
That is the whole idea of immersion isn't it?
I remember having to navigate my way from Freeport to East Commonlands, to West Commonlands, thru Kithicor Forest, thru High Hold pass and then on to the Eastern Plains and beyond...without any map!! or if I choose to, I could go into Rivervale, thru the Misty Thicket, on to Runneye Citadel, thru to the Eastern Plains of Karana and beyond... all varying levels of kill me now I'm a newb type of hell!
I remember running into the brownie camp in lesser faydark and getting my butt handed to me and thinking, WTF! Those things are like 3 inches tall??? And had butterfly wings!!, which I honestly at the time thought, "oh, how pretty"... But, did I run through that zone again the same way... ahhh...No.
Believe me, if you travelled through lessar faydark, you would understand, you couldn't see but 10 to 15 feet in front of you in-game first person, so this made getting around the zone a little problematic until you figured it out. This was the reward and once done, you feel the accomplishment, but with a map, not so much...
I was able to figure out, in my head, where and what to do and what not to do...and along the way, I found out how to navigate the terrain and my abilities to deal with the world I was in!
Wow! imagine that...
Its funny people like the idea of making their own maps because that is EXACTLY how EQ1 in game maps work. Other than a few cities all the rest of the game zones are blank slates. The map has a little tool area where you can draw lines that follow you as you move. You literally turned the recorder on and run around making your own maps. You could add pins with labels and color and everything. It was cool for a few months till you could literally get every map pre drawn by the community (at a much better quality) in one quick file download (http://www.mapfiend.net/index.php?pageid=mappacks). Very quickly it was just assumed that you used these.
Thats what the bottom right compass button is....
I really prefer not to see in-game maps, certainly not something that can be plopped into a folder labeled and marked with notes. The "GPS" marker aspect onto a map equally turns me off. People printing maps and whatnot is up to them. Somewhat foreign of a notion to me given I did just fine without needing maps of any sort, but others may not be as comfortable learning a zone or rather not learn a zone (time, interest, etc).
I personally liked the fact I knew zones well enough to look for landmarks and where to head from those landmarks to get to where I needed/wanted to go. Actually took some pride in knowing my way through a dungeon having done it several times to get to the different camps. The group would know there in good hands because I know the zone well enough to navigate it than staring at a map. It was learned in a more deep and meaningful way through trial and error, deaths/recoveries, etc.
I remember /loc in EQ, it felt a little clunky, but worked for what it did. Gave your your coordinates, but didn't give you a spatial understanding of surroundings. Just because you wanted to go East from where you are, there may be mob camps in the way, mountain ridges, etc. Worked for corpse recovery so you knew at least where you died if banzai running in a new zone.
I saw a post somewhere where somebody mentioned playing a game vs living in a game world. Things like map overlays with GPS markers feel more like a game to me than living in a game world. Perhaps there's a balance, but I'd much rather have less handholding/spoonfeeding for me. It's about the journey and knowing the world my character lives in, I'd think a map with GPS and markers would cheapen that for me (choosing not to use a mechanic in game would be a disadvantage at minimal in time).
Slight off-topic..
Seems like a large divide between more modern gamers/games and some of us old timers that want things back to being more challenging and less handheld/spoonfed. Times change (for better or worse) and since there's been such a long period between the more challenging style of games and the more modern games, it's a tricky balance for the developers to try and hit. What worked then may be shocking to a mmorpg gamers used to newer style mechanics, but they may not have experienced the older style games (and may in the end prefer those mechanics). Hopefully Pantheon is that game that lasts for years like EQ1 and there won't ever be another huge void in that style.
For what it's worth, given there's such a divide between how players prefer mechanics to be, the Pantheon community has really been a positive experience where people of different views can express them without being assaulted. There's a lot of games with highly toxic communities, good to see these boards are pretty civil. Some of the topics here are pretty core to what passionate players are looking for and kept pretty civil. In some other games, those same topics seem to fly off the rails into assaults/ridicule.
Nuemcy said:Warlored said:Another suggestion I had made in the previous discussions was in the map making area. Instead of just giving it into the hands of community to create graphics for use out of game, why not create a profession of sorts that can do this sort of thing in game?
my cp
-War
Or better yet, do it yourself
I create my own 'maps' (in my head, not ingame or otherwise)... as you stated Warlored, "As I look back I remember something special about not knowing where I was and using a lot of point of interest for navigating places".
This is exactly it, why chose to have someone else discover this information? Why not discover it yourself???
I don't see a need to have any profession or cartography skill that allows for some sort of ingrained ability for your 'avatar' to know where you are, why not "YOU" know where you are?
That is the whole idea of immersion isn't it?
I remember having to navigate my way from Freeport to East Commonlands, to West Commonlands, thru Kithicor Forest, thru High Hold pass and then on to the Eastern Plains and beyond...without any map!! or if I choose to, I could go into Rivervale, thru the Misty Thicket, on to Runneye Citadel, thru to the Eastern Plains of Karana and beyond... all varying levels of kill me now I'm a newb type of hell!
I remember running into the brownie camp in lesser faydark and getting my butt handed to me and thinking, WTF! Those things are like 3 inches tall??? And had butterfly wings!!, which I honestly at the time thought, "oh, how pretty"... But, did I run through that zone again the same way... ahhh...No.
Believe me, if you travelled through lessar faydark, you would understand, you couldn't see but 10 to 15 feet in front of you in-game first person, so this made getting around the zone a little problematic until you figured it out. This was the reward and once done, you feel the accomplishment, but with a map, not so much...
I was able to figure out, in my head, where and what to do and what not to do...and along the way, I found out how to navigate the terrain and my abilities to deal with the world I was in!
Wow! imagine that...
I think what Crazzie said was a good route to go, you can enable maps or disable them, and some people like me want maps and some you of course don't. I like having a sense of direction it's something I came into playing with MMO's. I understand that everyone cannot get everything they desire in a single game and want to fight for what they truly want in a game, but the fact we are not going to get everything we each individually want in any one game, so having options to enable or disable a features is a awesome step to ensure you can reach the different audiences. I personally could not imagine not having a map, I'm not old school enough apparently, but when I stated playing MMO's in 2005 they had maps and it's something I don't think I could personally do without.
Now I'm not speaking on mini Maps please eliminate those.
Please no maps of any kind, unless tradeskillable/purchasable from players. That would create a most excellent dynamic to the game. Think of it.
Buy a cheap map from Cartographer A. This guy has been to the main points of interest - according to the playerbase - in a given zone or region. Popular overland camps and spawn points, dungeon entrances, cities and towns. A player only interested in grinding out experience and getting to max lvl as fast as possible may be interested in this.
Or
Buy a more expensive map from Cartographer B, the consummate explorer. This map outlines all the points of interest as Cartographer A, but with added featers. Shortcuts, roads, paths, merchants and what they sell, pieces of lore, what climate is normally like in the area, what to look out for, even the level of certain mobs. These maps would be the highest of the high end, worth many plat, and the cartographer would have had to do a LOT of trekking and looking into nooks and crannies, lots of battling and exploring to create these maps. But even then, I don't want to see any markers on these maps indicating where I am, or where group members are. Make them maps, not GPS.
Just thinking about this makes me happy.
Other than that I'm fully against maps of any kind.
-Tralyan
I like the cartography idea, being able to sketch a rudimentary, almost childlike sketch of where I think things are, made with my blocky- mouse driven handwriting.( have you tried signing your name with a mouse?! its hard for me)
Which, cartography skill can improve hopefully overtime to maybe allow pathways, if any or roads to pop up or be auto-"written".
Having a basic landscape, then can allow more manual additions with improved skill. But I am not sure how that can be enabled in a game, it may be too intensive. If I earned/won/made alot of money, I would certainly throw a bunch at the devs to see what they could do. But in reality my concept may be too involved.
However, I really appreciated the work of Muse, yes I had the binder like everyone else, and some of mine were marked where I found odd ruins from going "diagonal from zonein, to the right, I should run into a jutting rock, flat on one side". It is that kind of ability I would like to see. Nothing blatant.
But then again, lets not forget when we got older in the MMO and had important things to do and places to get to and people to meet at a given time, I certainly wasted no time with the "Loc" ability, or bee-lining it to a point using the in game maps and sense heading.
My ideal would be to have the cartography skill, make the strangenesof thw world last a long time. Maybe having in game purchased maps for cities only from certain NPC's, or even crude maps of pathways travelled purchased forpm gypsies or travelling caravans.
Can you imagine a purchased sketch of a map , just showing a path tavelled, nothing else, and maybe one marker labeled "Our children buried here" somewhere along the route.
Because I just love to theorycraft, here's my view and my solution.
Maps in and of themselves are not a bad thing. They are useful if you know how to read them otherwise no help to you at all. Where I've disagreed with in-game maps is the implementation. Everything tool, every piece of armor, every item, every spell should have trade-off, a cost. I'm not talking something a limiting as monetary costs (though the correct implementation can include it) but that you should pay a price for that which is helpful and/or convenient.
Previous implementations of maps had no cost, no downside, no penalty. They gave you access to a lot of information, none of which you necessarily had to gather yourself, in a neat and tidy package useable anywhere, anytime, instantly. That was a problem. So to fix it introduce costs.
Ok, so now you have costs, and for those you get these conveniences.
Maps need the Cartography skill and it affects many aspects of map making. The skill affects:
Hey i am all in favor of a system or tradeskill that gives you mapping abilities. Good time sync for those that like to do everything.
Like i said, as soon as we had mappers early in the 2000's we used those on alt tab all the time. The very few that dont want them, are met with many that did use them.
So you can have it so, we explore and open up the map. We then can mark "our special" spots. It doesnt have to be that difficult, either you turn it off or let those turn it on. To completely ignore a simple system as mapping is cutting the new features added to most sandbox, or mmorpg games to date. How many dont have a compass...
Atleast everquest had skills in the start, where you would get better (1) at Sence heading.
I was spamming the button then to know my way around the world, trying to meet up with friends.
The map system is important for some guilds to make sure people knew the way to raids etc... We dont want 2 hrs of online game time to find the group.
The only thing mapping does, by not having the system is slow it down in the beginning. Later on people will map out the zones and we will just download and print off the copy.
Its going to happen one way or another.
Vandraad said:Because I just love to theorycraft, here's my view and my solution.
Maps in and of themselves are not a bad thing. They are useful if you know how to read them otherwise no help to you at all. Where I've disagreed with in-game maps is the implementation. Everything tool, every piece of armor, every item, every spell should have trade-off, a cost. I'm not talking something a limiting as monetary costs (though the correct implementation can include it) but that you should pay a price for that which is helpful and/or convenient.
Previous implementations of maps had no cost, no downside, no penalty. They gave you access to a lot of information, none of which you necessarily had to gather yourself, in a neat and tidy package useable anywhere, anytime, instantly. That was a problem. So to fix it introduce costs.
- Maps become physical objects. 1 zone is 1 physical map. It isn't a pop-up minimizeable window or even one you can make transparent. It also doesn't stack with other maps.
- Maps require you to be stationary or just walking. After all you're unrolling this large parchment to figure out where you are. If you want to read the map, ya gotta stop running.
- Maps require Primary Slot usage. You gotta hold a map to open it, so put away that sword or hammer or little wand thingie and put the map in your main hand slot to read it.
- Maps are static in size. No zoom, no scroll. This isn't Google maps. It's a piece of parchment. You want zoom? Move your face closer to the screen.
- Maps are written in ink...black ink. You aren't drawing with a 64pack of crayons. Ink and a Quill on Parchment.
- Maps have no static orientation. You set which direction is North on your map and every time you open your map you need to orientate it properly because the map doesn't know what direction North is. You could end up writing your notes upside down if you aren't careful...though that could prove helpful with some labels.
Ok, so now you have costs, and for those you get these conveniences.
- Maps can be copied. This is not an instant process and consumes materials (ink, quill, parchment, leather)
- Maps can be traded. If you take the time to create a very detailed map, you can sell your work to others.
- Maps will auto-fill geographic features (hills, forests, rivers, mountains). Based upon your cartography skill*, the map will (slowly) fill in the geographical features of an area surrounding you. The longer you remain stationary (and so long as you have ink and quill) more details will be included. Oh, you can't be invisible while doing this either.
- Maps have a special 'map bag' specifically to hold maps. The bag allows you to carry a lot of maps..but there is a limit.
Maps need the Cartography skill and it affects many aspects of map making. The skill affects:
- Allows you to create the map parchment itself.
- As the skill increases, the speed at which the map auto-fills geographic features decreases.
- As the skill increases, the radius around you which the map from which the map will gather information for auto-filling increases.
- As the skill increases, the accuracy of the geographic features increases.
This. I love this.
I like the idea that a lvl 1 cartogropher will not only be slower at creating maps, but they will also have less detailed maps. A lvl 1 map should have large cities. Maybe 1 main road. That's it.
Nicely put.
=Edit= Wanted to touch on the whole "Either way, people will create maps that you can just google" argument. If you create this as a skill, people will NOT do this. If you give the ability and make it a part of the game, something that involves either tradeskilling or plat, I guarantee you people will always, every time, ops for the in-game option instead of taking the time to create websites with maps.
Build it, and they will come.
-Tralyan
Prominus said:I think the game should not have any maps, mini maps or quest markers icons of any type. If a NPC has a quest you should have to interact to find out then you should have to READ what to do and where to go then FIGURE it out.
Playing games for the past few years I have tired of blindly following an arrow to the next destination and running with my map open only to miss the world.
Anyone else agree?
I 100 percent agree. These so called modern MMO's leave almost no reason to explore.
Reason to explore > convenience
I am up for whatever, just don't take away from reasons to explore.
Here is another theory: (you know me, I think outside the box at times)
How about a system where players can only buy maps from other skilled players. To create a basic map, you have to be max level at cartography. You can sell each map you make if you desire, but initially it lacks detail. So at the start, the first map would only include perimeter and minor details. These would be zone or territory specific.
Now it gets interesting... To detail the tradeable starter maps, any Landmarks, cave entrances, waterfalls, anything of significance, has to be entered by the player possessing the map. This gets saved to your .ini file as you possess it and log out. If it is removed from possession (because you trade or sell or destroy), you see no map anymore for that zone, and it disappears from your .ini as well. You need to possess a map for you to see it.
As you build detail to your own map, you could eventually sell it at a higher price if desired, but you will lose the time investment from detailling it and you would not have a map for that zone anymore. People will get great reputations of skilled map makers, and other will be known as sloppy and that can hurt their business. If you sell yours for profit and desire another map, you would have to earn or buy another and fill it in again (assuming it has not been detailed by someone else yet). You can only possess one map for that zone at one time...
*okay haters, bring it on!!!
