BeaverBiscuit said:snrub said:Having an auction house does not make a game a "WoW clone". EQ had a rudimentary auction house before WoW existed (The Bazaar zone). Telling someone to play WoW because they want an auction house doesn't even make sense. You are basically saying the auction house is the only thing that separates WoW from games that aren't WoW.
I played EQ for 11 years after launch. I experienced the pre-Bazaar days and the post-Bazaar days extensively. I personally do not want to go back to the days of spamming chat macros to try to sell stuff. Furthermore, I do not understand this argument that an auction house takes away from the social interaction of the game. In the probably hundreds of hours I spent in North Freeport selling stuff (that's where trading was done on my server), I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I said more than two sentences to. The rest of the time I was watching TV, playing another game, or reading while periodically checking my chat window. That isn't very social to me. That's the complete opposite of social.
Now, I do have one concern about auction houses that has nothing to do with that. In my experience, auction houses almost always lead to a buyer's market. The reason for this is if someone wants to sell an item, they will always search for the item on the AH first, and then post it for sale slightly cheaper than the cheapest one currently listed. The next person wanting to sell the item does the same thing, and so on. But honestly, I think the best way to combat this is simply to control the rate of flow of items into the game, or putting something like a tribute feature into the game where people can do stuff with their old items other than selling them.
If you take another look you may notice the people who said the words "WoW clone" said it would be that way if the pebble led to an avalanche. That is, AH (the pebble) is followed by various other "easycore" ideas to make things fair for everyone. Appease the people who don't like trade, and then you appease the people who don't like looking for groups. You add an automated grouping system. Then you need to appease the guys who don't like grinding, and you add easy leveling systems like those found in the non-vanilla eq servers. So on and so forth until the avalanche has fallen, and you have your "WoW Clone".
Of course as I have pointed out before, so long as VR kept their desocialization to trade only, it wouldn't break the game=)
Also, old style trade is not social just like you said. It just gives opportunities to be social. Where one person never talked, I know I made all sorts of business relationships and even friendships based on trade.
For example, noobs would collect small things like pelts or bone chips for me. I'd buy for a fair price, and then I'd resell it all for more. They knew I did. They didn't mind because they could immediately get rid of the things they wanted to sell, like with an auction house. They actually knew me and when they approached the tunnel would shoot me a tell and we'd chat.
You can be just as anti social with say, old style grouping. And yet that's what we will be doing in Pantheon, for the sake of the few who do take the time building relationships, rather than focusing on the "I'm spamming lfg macros" part. You don't need to like it, It's just that Pantheon wants to provide people those opportunities for socialization.
I agree with your worry about the auction house and luckily Pantheon has those safeguards planned out already.
I'm going to have to object to calling an auction house an "easycore" feature. There's nothing difficult about sitting in one place spamming a chat macro until someone replies. If I can perform a game activity while only devoting 10% of my attention to the game and 90% of my attention to the game I'm playing on my other monitor, the book I'm reading, or the movie I'm watching, that's about as far away from a difficult activity as I can imagine. I call it tedium.
snrub said:I'm going to have to object to calling an auction house an "easycore" feature. There's nothing difficult about sitting in one place spamming a chat macro until someone replies. If I can perform a game activity while only devoting 10% of my attention to the game and 90% of my attention to the game I'm playing on my other monitor, the book I'm reading, or the movie I'm watching, that's about as far away from a difficult activity as I can imagine. I call it tedium.
"easycore"... makes all things about buying/selling/trading easier... no need for talking, easy price/item lookups, easy item requests, everything is easier and more straightforward. Similar to group finder, quick transportation, non-dangerous dungeons/camps, etc.
Pretty easy to understand and see how AH falls into the "easycore" category.
Went back over this thread and what Brad and the other devs have said. I get they have something already in place they are getting ready to test. I love the fact they get just not having an AH is not the way to go but something that will give us a way to trade. I hope its not a mess with thousands of NPC vendors cluttering zones.
This is my 2 cents and what I think could work…
An AH connected to every city but it only sells common crafting, drop and crafted gear. Help everyone start out with the low-end stuff. Then each city could have a market that sells only goods found local, this would only have uncommon crafting goods gathered only from that area. Also, crafted goods that are uncommon made from mats from that area. Players could put them up for consignment.
For rare and epic items, crafted and dropped. That stuff VR has slated for trade and sell. I think there should be a AH or market of NPC you can put these items up for consignment. This AH or market should be in some off-beat location you need to fight your way there and out. Maybe even make it so it takes a team. People wanting to get to the AH could gather at the mouth of the cave or bottom of the mountain leading to where this market/ah is. When you get enough people their, you fight your way to it. The area could be no bind, no summon and you could not camp or quit there. Doing so would find you at the mouth of the cave. Having to fight your way back.
I think all AH and Markets should have a search feature even when you are far away from them but you would need to get to the area to be able to buy from the search. So you know its worth your time to go there. Also, when posting items on the AH/Market the items in your bag should be greyed out that can’t be posted up in that area. Just my two cents.
Archaen said:snrub said:I'm going to have to object to calling an auction house an "easycore" feature. There's nothing difficult about sitting in one place spamming a chat macro until someone replies. If I can perform a game activity while only devoting 10% of my attention to the game and 90% of my attention to the game I'm playing on my other monitor, the book I'm reading, or the movie I'm watching, that's about as far away from a difficult activity as I can imagine. I call it tedium.
"easycore"... makes all things about buying/selling/trading easier... no need for talking, easy price/item lookups, easy item requests, everything is easier and more straightforward. Similar to group finder, quick transportation, non-dangerous dungeons/camps, etc.
Pretty easy to understand and see how AH falls into the "easycore" category.
Fine. If you want a game where design decisions are made based on whether or not something makes a task in the game "easy" or not, that's up to you. In my world, design decisions should be made based on if it makes the game more fun or not. To me, being mostly AFK while spamming a chat macro trying to sell items is not fun. And before anyone says it, no I don't want a game like WoW. Is the lack of an auction house what made early MMO's good? I would say absolutely not. I want a game that is group focused rather than solo focused, has slower paced combat, more defined class roles, and an expansive open world. That to me is what made early MMO's good. I don't just want to hop in a time machine and travel back to 1999.
I've played on P99 recently. I've seen what goes on in the EC tunnel not through the perspective of rose colored glasses. These people aren't playing the game. They're barely paying attention to what's going on. That is absolutely not something I want to do again. Any design decision that has people focusing on something other than the game is a bad design decision to me.
snrub said:Archaen said:snrub said:I'm going to have to object to calling an auction house an "easycore" feature. There's nothing difficult about sitting in one place spamming a chat macro until someone replies. If I can perform a game activity while only devoting 10% of my attention to the game and 90% of my attention to the game I'm playing on my other monitor, the book I'm reading, or the movie I'm watching, that's about as far away from a difficult activity as I can imagine. I call it tedium.
"easycore"... makes all things about buying/selling/trading easier... no need for talking, easy price/item lookups, easy item requests, everything is easier and more straightforward. Similar to group finder, quick transportation, non-dangerous dungeons/camps, etc.
Pretty easy to understand and see how AH falls into the "easycore" category.
Fine. If you want a game where design decisions are made based on whether or not something makes a task in the game "easy" or not, that's up to you. In my world, design decisions should be made based on if it makes the game more fun or not. To me, being mostly AFK while spamming a chat macro trying to sell items is not fun. And before anyone says it, no I don't want a game like WoW. Is the lack of an auction house what made early MMO's good? I would say absolutely not. I want a game that is group focused rather than solo focused, has slower paced combat, more defined class roles, and an expansive open world. That to me is what made early MMO's good. I don't just want to hop in a time machine and travel back to 1999.
I've played on P99 recently. I've seen what goes on in the EC tunnel not through the perspective of rose colored glasses. These people aren't playing the game. They're barely paying attention to what's going on. That is absolutely not something I want to do again. Any design decision that has people focusing on something other than the game is a bad design decision to me.
Damn right.
Beefcake said:snrub said:Archaen said:snrub said:I'm going to have to object to calling an auction house an "easycore" feature. There's nothing difficult about sitting in one place spamming a chat macro until someone replies. If I can perform a game activity while only devoting 10% of my attention to the game and 90% of my attention to the game I'm playing on my other monitor, the book I'm reading, or the movie I'm watching, that's about as far away from a difficult activity as I can imagine. I call it tedium.
"easycore"... makes all things about buying/selling/trading easier... no need for talking, easy price/item lookups, easy item requests, everything is easier and more straightforward. Similar to group finder, quick transportation, non-dangerous dungeons/camps, etc.
Pretty easy to understand and see how AH falls into the "easycore" category.
Fine. If you want a game where design decisions are made based on whether or not something makes a task in the game "easy" or not, that's up to you. In my world, design decisions should be made based on if it makes the game more fun or not. To me, being mostly AFK while spamming a chat macro trying to sell items is not fun. And before anyone says it, no I don't want a game like WoW. Is the lack of an auction house what made early MMO's good? I would say absolutely not. I want a game that is group focused rather than solo focused, has slower paced combat, more defined class roles, and an expansive open world. That to me is what made early MMO's good. I don't just want to hop in a time machine and travel back to 1999.
I've played on P99 recently. I've seen what goes on in the EC tunnel not through the perspective of rose colored glasses. These people aren't playing the game. They're barely paying attention to what's going on. That is absolutely not something I want to do again. Any design decision that has people focusing on something other than the game is a bad design decision to me.
Damn right.
Brad said back many pages ago, he does not think yelling for hours WTS is the way he will go with things. So this is a moot point.
If enough people enjoy time in a bazaar they will create one and it will thrive. The question isn't whether bazaar selling should be allowed - of course it will be. The question is whether bazaar selling will be compulsory because of the absence of any other mechanism to buy and sell from other players. I think that question pretty well answers itself with a fairly loud consensus "no".
Nanfoodle said:Beefcake said:snrub said:Archaen said:snrub said:
Brad said back many pages ago, he does not think yelling for hours WTS is the way he will go with things. So this is a moot point.
I agree with Brad.
This is a very difficult issue. Auction houses do make things very easy and are prone to market manipulation and abuse (goes both ways with some charging outrageous amounts for stuff, as well as chronic undercuting); however I for one am not at college any more with an entire day to waste on running around 2,000 stalls, selling mostly trash, looking for what I want; or putting up with endless spam in the wrong chat channels. Neither are my idea of fun; Neither contribute to community cohesion.
Case in point FOR auction houses: With EQII, the number of times I went to the board to look up and item, chose one, ran around for 20 mins trying to find the inevitably AFK seller only to find that someone had beat me to it. Soul destroying. How is that pro community?
Case in point AGAINST auction houses: Spending ages levelling up tailoring and harvesting and gear mods, spending a fortune on ingredients to finally make a nice Vanya robe and then never selling it because I was continuously undercut. Soul destroying.
I hate both systems for buying and selling rares - for consumables I just want to 'go to a shop' (i.e. AH). Really not sure what the ideal system is. Perhaps an AH with additional rules.. Certainly not thousands of player stalls. The game should be hard, but it shouldn't be mind numbingly tedious.
Why should AH matter to anyone? it is a barter system that is used in all major cities around the world in Real life. We have stalls, (shops) that do the exact same things, we have online sales now that also can be bought or sold just as easy.
We could spend 10+ hrs killing spiders for silk thread or we could take the money i earned and purchase it from the local shops in town.
Either way it is never going to happen the way we want it, We could sit in the EC tunnel and sell our hand made robe for 10k somewhere over 9k profit, and someone buys it and puts the prices way up.
It is no different then the AH everyone will find ways to hike up the prices, or make the market to thier way.
I just dont think the AH is a real issue, as much as we think. We could just sell our wares to AH AI and have them sell it at a higher then normal price for you to purchase, if it is there it is there, if not it was gone. If you find it great if you dont sad days.
Then you will have, I wish we had an AH this takes too much time to farm XXX silk when i could be here and there leveling up.
There is no good way, or bad way with AH or EC selling.. you either decide one way or the other.
Someone will find ways to make thier own system.
Crazzie said:Why should AH matter to anyone? it is a barter system that is used in all major cities around the world in Real life. We have stalls, (shops) that do the exact same things, we have online sales now that also can be bought or sold just as easy.
We could spend 10+ hrs killing spiders for silk thread or we could take the money i earned and purchase it from the local shops in town.
Either way it is never going to happen the way we want it, We could sit in the EC tunnel and sell our hand made robe for 10k somewhere over 9k profit, and someone buys it and puts the prices way up.
It is no different then the AH everyone will find ways to hike up the prices, or make the market to thier way.
I just dont think the AH is a real issue, as much as we think. We could just sell our wares to AH AI and have them sell it at a higher then normal price for you to purchase, if it is there it is there, if not it was gone. If you find it great if you dont sad days.
Then you will have, I wish we had an AH this takes too much time to farm XXX silk when i could be here and there leveling up.
There is no good way, or bad way with AH or EC selling.. you either decide one way or the other.
Someone will find ways to make thier own system.
Brad said many pages back in this thread is he does not like how AH remove people from the world. Any system he added would include travel and exploration. Why if you read my suggestion above. There should be markets or AH for different things in different places in the world. Like for Rare and Epic items crafted and dropped. You Could have an Market/AH at the top of a mountain and you would need to fight to the top to use it. Make it so the mobs even needed to be teamed to kill. So people could wait at the bottom of the mountain till enough people who wanted to go up it could team. Fight their way up and use the AH. No mail boxes up there. Make it a no bind, no summons area and it covers the needs of everyone.
Archaen said:snrub said:I'm going to have to object to calling an auction house an "easycore" feature. There's nothing difficult about sitting in one place spamming a chat macro until someone replies. If I can perform a game activity while only devoting 10% of my attention to the game and 90% of my attention to the game I'm playing on my other monitor, the book I'm reading, or the movie I'm watching, that's about as far away from a difficult activity as I can imagine. I call it tedium.
"easycore"... makes all things about buying/selling/trading easier... no need for talking, easy price/item lookups, easy item requests, everything is easier and more straightforward. Similar to group finder, quick transportation, non-dangerous dungeons/camps, etc.
Pretty easy to understand and see how AH falls into the "easycore" category.
I disagree. I find it much easier to sell goods by advertising them and hyping my product. The task of putting them on the AH itself may be easy, but trying to get it sold for a fair price is an entirely different matter. Selling stuff on the AH requires you to check your entire inventory multiple times daily to make sure that it's being sold for a competitive price. If someone undercuts you, you have to adjust your price. This is why in most games that have an AH, you'll still see people doing the "WTS" spam in trade channels, especially if they are trying to sell something rare or in bulk. In my experience, having an AH has actually helped me with uncovering personalized trade opportunities that allow me to haggle. Because of the vast amount of information readily available, I have access to more people and more products. If someone only plays in the morning, and I only play at night, seeing their posting on the AH allows me to send them a message or mailer in game to inquire about working on a deal. I have done this countless times. As far as the buyer market goes, I think people are willing to spend more money when they feel they are getting a fair price. For me, having an AH isn't about making the game easy, it's about giving me the most amount of information possible so that I can make an educated decision.
I have already stated that I am willing to meet people more than halfway and give any system a chance. I meant that. I'm going to support whatever system that makes it's way in the game. I will give it a fair shot, with no preconceived notion of it being doomed for failure. That said, I think having an AH in the game should at the very least be considered as a possibility. An AH doesen't make the game easy, it makes it more convenient. Any time I have ever suggested that I wanted something to be more convenient, the torches and pitchforks pop out the woodwork telling me that Pantheon isn't for me and that I should play WoW or some other game that was made for me. I have zero interest in WoW because it's too convenient ... but to be honest, they do have several features in the game that appealed to me that were unavailable in all of the games that I truly loved. It's all about picking which battles you want to fight. In my opinion, the AH system will help deliver on the tenet of having a "player driven economy" as more players would be able to participate in it. Without an AH, it seems more like a "select player driven economy" as only select players will take the time to fully commit to a bazaar or EC style trade district.
Personally, I don't see why we couldn't have both systems in the game. Let people play the way they want to play. If the argument against it is that most people would use the AH, that speaks volumes to me and would seem to indicate that perhaps people should stop trying to define who Pantheon is being made for. This is my baby as much as it is for people who played EQ1 -- the sooner we can accept that a wide audience is being targeted, the sooner people will stop getting labeled or chastized for having a "different" opinion. I do not want an easy game, nor do I want an overly convenient game. If someone says that they are in favor of one particular convenience factor, that doesen't mean it should be assumed that they want the entire game to be convenient. Pantheon has already delivered a sense of fun and enjoyment for me; the community for this game is amazing and I have personally given up on all other gaming endeavors to build relationships with people here because of it. Many of my friends have different opinions on this topic but at the end of the day, we were all drawn here by a magic that is intertwined with our history in the genre. We all have different reasons why, and different priorities of things we would like to see in the game. At the end of the day, though, we all believe that the final product that will be Pantheon is going to be awesome enough to spend years of our time playing it. People are going to have to settle on what is and what is not. Have faith in the development team that is comprised of gamers much like ourselves and play in the world they designed with that in mind.
oneADseven said:Archaen said:snrub said:I'm going to have to object to calling an auction house an "easycore" feature. There's nothing difficult about sitting in one place spamming a chat macro until someone replies. If I can perform a game activity while only devoting 10% of my attention to the game and 90% of my attention to the game I'm playing on my other monitor, the book I'm reading, or the movie I'm watching, that's about as far away from a difficult activity as I can imagine. I call it tedium.
"easycore"... makes all things about buying/selling/trading easier... no need for talking, easy price/item lookups, easy item requests, everything is easier and more straightforward. Similar to group finder, quick transportation, non-dangerous dungeons/camps, etc.
Pretty easy to understand and see how AH falls into the "easycore" category.
... An AH doesen't make the game easy, it makes it more convenient. Any time I have ever suggested that I wanted something to be more convenient, the torches and pitchforks pop out the woodwork telling me that Pantheon isn't for me and that I should play WoW or some other game that was made for me. I have zero interest in WoW because it's too convenient ... but to be honest, they do have several features in the game that appealed to me that were unavailable in all of the games that I truly loved. ..,
The arguments back and forth over the AH pretty much boil down to this point. It's clear that the AH provides more convenience to all of us. So in essence, the argument is over what level of convenience do we want for Pantheon? Many of us who are against an AH are well aware of the time investment and tedium that can come along with that. It's not that we are looking at the days of EQ with "rose-colored glasses," we're well aware of what we're asking for having lived through it all, it's that we know where the path through convenience ends up.
I know of not a single MMO that has removed "convenient" features with expansions/updates. They always inevitably add convenience and ease with each successive patch. If Pantheon is to start from/maintain its "hardcore" roots there will have to be a clear line on where they're willing to go with a feature. Otherwise, inevitably convenience will come, and eventually without realizing it, we will be playing WoW. Maybe not the WoW of today, but certainly not the Pantheon we're looking for.
In the end, it doesn't matter whether I agree with what they do or not... nor does it matter if I like what they do or not... if they choose to add certain features to the game, they cannot avoid the consequences that come with it. Doesn't matter if they're good intentioned or ignorant, or simply want it to be different... their game will suffer for any wrong choice they make they are unwilling to rectify. EQ would be a much better game if they had realized this after Luclin and ripped the Bazaar straight out of the game, focused on a graphical update, and stayed true to their "hardcore" roots.
snrub said:... And before anyone says it, no I don't want a game like WoW. Is the lack of an auction house what made early MMO's good? I would say absolutely not. ...
Actually yes, the lack of an AH is one of the things that made early MMO's more "hardcore" (or good for those of us that want that). It honestly sounds to me like we're looking for two different things. You want more of the early years of WoW (from the sounds of it), while I (among others) am looking for the early years of EQ. If they decide to go the route of early WoW, it will inevitably lead to later WoW... mostly because it shows they have not learned the lesson of what makes an MMO "hardcore". That's not to say there shouldn't be new features and less tedium, but without the understanding of what led to the more frequent years of the MMO genre, there's no way to avoid it happening again in Pantheon. The AH was one of those things.
Archaen said:snrub said:... And before anyone says it, no I don't want a game like WoW. Is the lack of an auction house what made early MMO's good? I would say absolutely not. ...
Actually yes, the lack of an AH is one of the things that made early MMO's more "hardcore" (or good for those of us that want that). It honestly sounds to me like we're looking for two different things. You want more of the early years of WoW (from the sounds of it), while I (among others) am looking for the early years of EQ. If they decide to go the route of early WoW, it will inevitably lead to later WoW... mostly because it shows they have not learned the lesson of what makes an MMO "hardcore". That's not to say there shouldn't be new features and less tedium, but without the understanding of what led to the more frequent years of the MMO genre, there's no way to avoid it happening again in Pantheon. The AH was one of those things.
The AH was never the problem. How it was done was. Same with not having a system that helped people sell items. It also had its problems. Often the frustration of trying to sell items lead to items just being sold as vendor trash (how is that player interaction?) when crafters and up and coming new players could have used the help of higher level chars. Selling these items at a cost that helped them along the way. While adding some coin to the purse.
- AH gave gold sellers a new tool but that can be fixed by setting limits.
- AH lowered player interaction, no it just changed it. A number of people have said on this thread they have sent tells to people posting items on the AH. Interaction can be increased as well by putting AH with the really good stuff at the end of a challenge only a team can over come. Like at the end of a small dungeon.
VR are very capable to make an AH that fits the needs of both sides. I wonder how many will flip out when they give us something other then a corner to yell WTS. They were very clear in this thread they have something to test. So, its not just a place to gather and yell WTS. Be that a market, NPC vendors you can rent/own or maybe a new type of AH like GW2 made an AH to fit their game. Something is ready to be tested.
Archaen said:snrub said:... And before anyone says it, no I don't want a game like WoW. Is the lack of an auction house what made early MMO's good? I would say absolutely not. ...
Actually yes, the lack of an AH is one of the things that made early MMO's more "hardcore" (or good for those of us that want that). It honestly sounds to me like we're looking for two different things. You want more of the early years of WoW (from the sounds of it), while I (among others) am looking for the early years of EQ. If they decide to go the route of early WoW, it will inevitably lead to later WoW... mostly because it shows they have not learned the lesson of what makes an MMO "hardcore". That's not to say there shouldn't be new features and less tedium, but without the understanding of what led to the more frequent years of the MMO genre, there's no way to avoid it happening again in Pantheon. The AH was one of those things.
No, I don't want WoW, so stop saying that. Around here it seems like any time someone advocates something that isn't lifted straight from vanilla EQ, they're told to go back to WoW, which is unfortunate. Also, you're forgetting that EQ had an auciton house before WoW even existed (it was added during Luclin). Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of an auction house in vanilla was less of a design feature, and more of a "we don't have time to put this is" decision.
Finally, again, there's nothing hardcore about spamming:
"WTS FBSS behind Jades 4k" every 2 minutes while watching TV.
This thread is drifting back into an argument over personal opinions and dragging on for much longer than it needs too, which will result in it being closed, so please make the shift back to discussing the Auction House in a mature and respectable manner to stop that from happening, while keeping in mind that we will not comment further on this until we get the game into testing and you folks have very little information to go off.
Kilsin said:This thread is drifting back into an argument over personal opinions and dragging on for much longer than it needs too, which will result in it being closed, so please make the shift back to discussing the Auction House in a mature and respectable manner to stop that from happening, while keeping in mind that we will not comment further on this until we get the game into testing and you folks have very little information to go off.
I look forward to testing whatever idea the VR team has in mind. No matter what it is, I will attempt to make the best of it. I will not complain about wanting a different system, but rather provide meaningful feedback on how the existing system could be improved in order to better deliver the experience that it was designed to provide. At this point, I think it would be wise for anybody that is particularly passionate about the outcome of said system to get their tail into pre-alpha and contribute in any way they can to ensure it's success.
If the team wishes to encourage in-person selling it need not go to the extreme of making this the only way to sell.
Having greater restrictions than the typical MMO on using the broker or auction house is a much better solution than having no broker or auction house at all. And restrictions can easily be made tougher or milder as circumstances warrent after the game goes live. Thus higher than typical fees, shorter than typical listing periods, smaller than typical limits on the number of items that can be listed by any one account, prohibitions on certain types of items being listed (yes you can sell tin so that new metalsmiths can buy it easily but the best level of gear that the game allows to be traded can only be sold in the tunnel) for example. I advocate none of these restrictions but the choice is a lot wider than (1) no AH or (2) modern AH.
oneADseven said:Kilsin said:This thread is drifting back into an argument over personal opinions and dragging on for much longer than it needs too, which will result in it being closed, so please make the shift back to discussing the Auction House in a mature and respectable manner to stop that from happening, while keeping in mind that we will not comment further on this until we get the game into testing and you folks have very little information to go off.
I look forward to testing whatever idea the VR team has in mind. No matter what it is, I will attempt to make the best of it. I will not complain about wanting a different system, but rather provide meaningful feedback on how the existing system could be improved in order to better deliver the experience that it was designed to provide. At this point, I think it would be wise for anybody that is particularly passionate about the outcome of said system to get their tail into pre-alpha and contribute in any way they can to ensure it's success.
That is all we can ask and I personally hope that we get as many testers as possible with that attitude as we really mean it when we say testing, we need the help of our community as it won't be a polished marketing hype train to sell more copies, it will be to help fix bugs, exploits, balance among many other things. :)
I feel the need to preface my comments every time I post on this topic just to state my preference of there being no AH, at least not an automated one in Pantheon/Terminus. Ok, now that is out of the way. : )
These first two paragraphs were actually going to be the closing paragraphs of my post here, but I figured I would insert them here at the beginning in case people got tired of reading my post halfway through and didn’t finish it:
To me, the EC tunnel was a beautiful, special & unique thing. It was something completely organic that came to life and grew because of the players and not something that was programmed into the coding of the game. There was no giant ! on top of the tunnel that told all players “this is where you have to come if you want to sell your stuff”, it just happened that way. If I didn’t feel like grouping or camping something, or didn’t feel like working on any of the several quests I may be attempting to complete at the time, I went to the tunnel. It was a great place to “take a load off” from adventuring or to hang out if I just wanted to log on for a little while and not get involved with anything too in-depth/time-consuming and just socialize with other players.
I know some say that the tunnel was just a bunch of players sitting there spamming the items they had for sale over chat and there were definitely many players who did only that. However, I could always find many people to have a conversation with that were not just sitting there semi/completely afk spamming their for sale messages. I and others enjoyed the social aspect of it and the atmosphere. I can’t count how many grateful “newbies” that thanked me for casting Clarity (or Breeze later on) upon them, druids/shamans for SoW, etc. I was always entertained by people “training” the tunnel with stuff they were running for their lives from. I and others would usually help them by dispatching the train and many of them expressed their thanks. On rare occasion, someone would train a griffin to the tunnel and that was always exciting and entertaining. All of that died with the introduction of the Bazaar in Luclin and I have not seen anything as unique and special as the EC tunnel in another MMO since EQ.
Of those people arguing for an automated AH I ask, is it really that important when you think about it?
How often do you truly come across an item in a game that is going to net you some huge monetary gain that you will end up trying to sell/trade? Since we constantly reference the EC tunnel in this thread, I’ll look at vanilla EQ for examples. Some of the examples I think of that fit this description that were non-dragon, non-planar drops and obtainable by a group or via solo play were things like an SMR, FBSS, Rubicite, SSoY, Paw of Opolla, Serrated Bone Dirk, just to name a few.
I can honestly say that it was very rare I obtained any items like those mentioned above where I didn’t actually need them for myself and planned on equipping/keeping them, as most of the groups I was in (whether it be a guild or pickup group) used a “need before greed” stance.
I imagine that is true for others as well, where you didn’t acquire those type things very often. But in the event you did manage to acquire items like some of those I previously mentioned, I can almost assure you that you would have very little trouble selling/trading those items because of how powerful and/or coveted they were.
Assuming you were asking for a fair trade/price for an item like that, you could usually find a buyer or trade partner in very short period of time (sometimes a matter of seconds/minutes). You would not have to sit in the EC tunnel for hours on end, “bored to death” trying to sell/trade it.
As far as more common, less valuable things such as bone chips, fine steel weapons, etc. go. Was/is it really that important that you sell those type things right away? Was your character so desperate/needy for plat that you had to sell things like that immediately just to be able to afford food/drink or reagents? That was not the case for me, but maybe I was lucky, I don’t know.
I personally would save things like bone chips, fine steel weapons, etc. and wait until I had a significant number of those things before I attempted to sell them. If/when I wanted to try and sell those things I would set aside time to do so, if needed. Generally though, I didn’t have to do that. If I couldn’t find a group I’d put my /lfg on and head to the tunnel and try to sell those things and enjoy the company of other adventurers while I was at it and wait for a /tell from a group to join.
If one of my guild’s scheduled raids went quicker than expected or ended abruptly and it was too close to my bedtime to join a group but I still had some time left to play, I would usually head to the EC tunnel to hang out for a bit and try and sell some of those less valuable, more common items and engage other players there.
The point I’m am trying to make is that some people on this thread make it sound as if they were forced to spend hours upon hours in the EC tunnel just to sell something and it was a huge waste of time or inconvenience and that it was a “necessary evil” that prevented them from doing other things they wanted to do. For me personally, I never had to spend hours upon hours in the EC tunnel, unless I just felt like hanging out there and socializing.
As I mentioned already, every time I got a stack of bone chips or looted a fine steel weapon, etc. I didn’t feel the need to drop everything I was doing and rush to EC to sell it. I didn’t feel like I was forced to sit in the EC tunnel and sell everything I had before I could go out adventuring again. If I wanted to go adventuring, I did. I put those things back in my bank or left them in my inventory and ventured off.
To me and many others, it’s not a matter of convenience or inconvenience. It’s about something special in the EC tunnel that we have not seen in another game since EQ. We loved the sense of community it promoted in the game. It helped us immerse ourselves into the game and feel much closer to the other players who played with us. I know for me and others the EC tunnel was one of several things that made EQ special and kept us coming back to Norrath for years and years.
All that being said, I realize VR already has some kind of system in mind for money/item exchange. I hope whatever it is, that it ends up appealing to the majority of the playerbase. As oneADseven a few posts before this one, I will do my best to help them test whatever system they settle upon and offer as much feedback as I can on it, that’s all I/we can do.
I think there is a legitimate difference between special rare and valuable items and routine drops, harvested materials and collectibles (if Pantheon winds up having such). I agree that you as the seller are unlikely to be so desperate for the coin that you urgently need to sell the 50 pieces of copper to a level 1 crafter immediately. On the other hand, the level 1 crafter may not be able to get to "the tunnel" at all and if there are 10 "tunnels" one per starting area it will be a nightmare to look for those stinking pieces of copper. Yes I know she can always harvest them herself but the whole idea of "the tunnel" is that often people will find it better to buy things that they could spend a lot more time to get in other ways.
If, and I repeat if, VR chooses not to have a modern style broker I think it would make a lot more sense for high value items than routine items. Perhaps if that is their decision they can have a broker but with a maximum listing price. So if we want to buy or sell routine items we need not seek out "the tunnel" and spend a lot of time screaming out what we want and what we will pay. For 50 stinking pieces of low level materials. On the other hand if one of us gets the fabled "Too good for even a God mithril embossed helmet of damage plus 47" it is off to "the tunnel" and for the price that will bring it is worth spending the time and effort.
Personally I would vote to have a broker for everything but I recognize there is a strong difference of opinion here and my bias is toward suggesting ways that VR can make all of us unhappy (myself included) but none of us TOO unhappy. That is the classical definition of a good compromise.
I honestly can't believe this thread is still going.
Like the points for and against have been beaten to death. They have read the concerns from both sides. They have set up a system in place that they think is what is right for the world of Terminus. Wait till we get inside to determine whether you agree or not. It shouldn't be that much longer guys! I know we are all incredibly bored right now with the MMO market being stagnant and boring but compromise must exist on all sides. Maybe they put in AH's, maybe they don't. Either way, you will all play the game and love it. The fact that you are here disputing others makes that evident. Voice your opinions but don't make Kilsins job even harder. Less he's on here playing mediator, faster we get to hear about new content!
I can appreciate your stance on the issue Dorotea and would be willing to consider and/or compromise with a solution like that. I have an idea similar to your example, I will use WoW's item and AH system as a point of reference:
In WoW you had common items (grey), uncommon (green), rare (blue), epic (purple) and legendary (orange), if I recall correctly. Using something similar to classify items in Pantheon, I think I could be ok with a system where players could list common items on the AH, and probably uncommon items as well, but be unable to list rare, epic and legendary items on the AH.
As you said, it would allow players to unload higher quantity/lower value items (common & uncommon quality/classification) without having to spend much time attempting to sell them. On the other hand, they would have to actively attempt to sell/trade rarer, more valuable items (rare, epic, legendary quality/classification).
People wouldn't be forced to seek out "the tunnel" and be inconvenienced to make perhaps a lengthy/dangerous trip as you said, if all they needed was some basic, common things. They would however be forced to put in some effort and perhaps have to make that trip for something that was truly valuable and/or powerful though.
I can also see some merit in this idea for another reason. If someone started the game later on after it had been out a while, they may be gifted some money from a friend, stranger or some other individual in general or even earn it on their own. They could go to a nearby AH and with that money find some basic (common or uncommon) equipment, armor and weapons for sale to be able to outfit their character with. They could in theory buy a whole set of equipment with that money, but since only common and uncommon equipment (in theory not that powerful) would be available they would not be able to “twink” themselves out so significantly that they would nearly be indestructible/un-killable during the early levels of the game.
I hope VR can put a system in place that minimizes its impact/pervasiveness as much as possible, but we all know RMT will exist to some degree, it's a given. There will be people who have more money than time or sense of achievement/accomplishment that buy a bunch of currency from "gold farmers" off some site, looking to "twink" their character(s) out and start the game on “god” mode and rush through the early content as quickly and easily as possible.
In other games with an unrestricted auction house where everything sellable/tradeable could be listed there, people like this would be able to outfit their character with extremly powerful gear from level 1 almost immediately after logging in for the first time with no effort involved whatsoever. A system like this would prevent people from being able to log in at level 1, rush straight to the AH and have a set of equipment that some higher level players may be envious of, at least for a time.
Obviously people like this would still be able to get their hands on rare, more powerful items (rare, epic, legendary, etc.). But it would at least put some kind of bottleneck in place and require more effort on their part. A system like this would also still put a requirement on effort and socialization in order to obtain certain items from other players.
All that being said, I do feel the need to stress again I never saw the EC tunnel as an inconvenience and don’t see why some others did. The EC tunnel was fairly well situated in the middle of Antonica, with Faydwer and Odus both being a short run and boat trip away. A “good” alignment player could bind in Freeport which was minutes away from the tunnel and a “bad” alignment player could bind in Neriak which was also only a few minutes away. Obviously casters could bind even closer.
There were not many locations in Norrath that you could not reach by 30 minutes on foot (assuming you could find SoW) from the EC tunnel and adversely there weren’t many locations in Norrath that it took more than 30 minutes to reach the EC tunnel from (assuming you could find SoW). So it kind of strikes me as funny when people act like a 30 minute trip (maximum) to/from the EC tunnel was a big deal when the same people would spend hours, days, weeks, etc. trying to obtain a rare drop from a dungeon and/or mob somewhere , which they may never see.
I still would prefer to see no AH whatsoever. I think if VR did it right and could find a nice spot centrally located in Terminus like the EC tunnel was in Norrath it could work. Because not only was the tunnel the center/hub of trade activity and socialization, but it was also fairly well centrally located geographically as well. Which is why I think something like that could work in Pantheon if done right.
That being said, I would be willing to consider a system like Dorotea spelled out or like the one I detailed above.