Should there be a server for an AH?
And a server for PVP?
And a server for corpse runs?
And a server for fast travel?
And a server for cash shops?
And a server for add-ons allowed?
How about a server for PVP and corpse runs, but not fast travel and cash shops?
How about a server for no PVP, but corpse runs, but not fast travel, that allows cash shops?
How many variations of servers is reasonable? How many are manageable? How many can be balanced, tested, and maintained throughout the thousands of patchs and (hopefully) dozens of expansions that will be released, when all of them require different considerations and different code sets? At what point does that kind of mentaility create a scenario where all the shards are crap because all of them are just a hodge-podge of things plugged in without cohesive thought from a solid foundation?
Agreed, Feyshtey. I think advocating for separate servers with different rulesets and mechanics is the wrong approach. I see it come up often in many different threads, as you've pointed to. I think we need to feel free to actively discuss differing positions and concepts to best help the dev team see the different perspectives, but when the time comes, I hope that no matter what final decisions are made, we can unify and try to support the game and mechanics as best we can, giving feedback when necessary.
We will not be splitting the community up with servers for everyones likes and dislikes, there will be main PvE servers, some RP servers and some PvP servers, from there we will maybe consider some special ruleset servers if there is enough interest other than that, you will have to choose a server carefully and make it your permanent home.
People need to remember that this is our game, we are making what we want to play based on all of our experience as gamers and game creators. :)
oneADseven said:Has anybody come up with an AH alternative that allows players to truly get a feel for what an item is worth in a player driven economy? If I'm a new player and happen to get a shiny golden key while I adventure, what non-AH system is out there to help me understand what my key is worth? A system that wouldn't require me to check a ton of different vendors because honestly, I'm a new player and trying to catch up in XP with most of the server. I don't need need top dollar for this thing, but since I'm new, I'm broke. I just want to get a fair price for it and then maybe I can afford a weapon. How much is that going to cost? What kind of weapons are out there that I should consider using? Again, time is of the essence ... I just had so much fun adventuring and I really want to get back to that. What non-AH system can accomodate someone like me?
/shout PC super awesome golden key
oneADseven said:The problem with new people going to "learn" how the bazaar works is that they will quickly learn how much they hate their lives doing it. The people at the top of the food chain create monopolies and a huge barrier to entry for anybody else trying to enter their domain. I'm telling you this from the perspective of a former market player in many different types of economy settings. An economy with an AH was always the most difficult to manipulate because people had an easier way to determine what their stuff was actually worth. I think it's perfectly reasonable to allow new players to effectively gauge the value of their items by checking an AH. Information is power. If you don't have an AH system, then a 3'rd party site will pop up in an effort to provide that type of information, which in turn is going to create a huge handicap for anybody who doesen't utilize said 3'rd party website. That doesen't feel right to me. Some might ask "well how does manipulating the market and taking advantage of people feel right?" It doesen't, but if that's how the economy works, someone will do it. You know how I got involved as a market player? I got ripped off really bad. I learned how easy it was to do and the rest is history. That's why I am advocating for an AH. I don't want to rip people off ... but if there is a system where market players are going to get rich off the shortcomings of others, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be one of the suckers. I'm getting paid. I'd have way more fun actually playing the game but if my time is better spent manipulating the market I'll opt to do that instead. I really really want to enjoy adventuring! I actually like farming. If there is no AH, I'll be extremely rich without ever having to farm, craft, gather ... any of that. The only thing I will do to make money is play the market and take advantage of anybody that can't spend as much time doing it as me.
Some people might hate it, some people might love it. Some people might like the Pantheon combat system, some might hate it. Some might like humans, some might hate them. Such is life.
I worked a long time in the tunnels of Everquest. I would go get an iksar berserker club, sell it to get my "seed", and be rich as crap by next month, enjoying the entire ride.
Allow me to answer your questions with a question. How will an auction house stop a market from being cornered? In wow when I wanted my epic mount I bought up all the cobra scales. I would then sell them for a higher price. I bought every single one, and had my epic mount pretty quick.
The most recent EQ 1 (phinigel was it?) true box progression server had tunnel as well. Loam gear costed...almost nothing...when I played it. This alone aught to mean that It's hard to corner this market. You had people you saw a lot in the tunnel, buying and selling things, And yes it was usually expensive. But can you haggle with the auction house? can you make a relationship with someone where you sell his things for him in exchange for some profit? Can you build a relationship with some noob who is farming pelts you need to make the bags you sell, to buy his pelts from him? I did, I'd go so far as to say that in a community based game, this is exactly what they want. Pantheon is in no way designed to make everyone happy, and is designed to be "difficult".
In addition, the Auction House means you don't advertise your desire to buy something. So the only people you are buying from are the ones who corner the market unless you are lucky to get to an original seller first. By advertising your desire to buy something, mayhap in the area it drops if you really want it, you can help ensure your ability to buy the item before the guy cornering the market can. In fact, an auction house allows the monopolies to run 24/7, as it does not sleep.
Again, you aren't a soda machine, nor is the auction house. Why should you not be present for the sale of your own goods? Why should you not have to build relationships or barter? If you don't want to sell things why should you not have to find an actual person who will sell your stuff for you? To make the game easier and more enjoyable for you, tenets be cursed?
Kilsin said:We will not be splitting the community up with servers for everyones likes and dislikes, there will be main PvE servers, some RP servers and some PvP servers, from there we will maybe consider some special ruleset servers if there is enough interest other than that, you will have to choose a server carefully and make it your permanent home.
People need to remember that this is our game, we are making what we want to play based on all of our experience as gamers and game creators. :)
Hey Kilsin
I think relevant to the topic as it would have a direct effect on the economy and how auction house or no auction house would work. Can you confirm or deny that goods sold at just any old merchant by player-X will be available for purchase by player-Y from that same merchant, or will they just disappear?
There will be monopolies in both versions but they are more difficult to maintain when there is an AH because of the increased supply and increased competition. It's also much easier for the players who can't fully dedicate themselves to the trade economy to get involved as a market player. Rather than sitting in the bazaar all day, they can play the market sparingly whenever they log on and see what deals they can find. You can still barter with an AH being present in the game. I always bartered before purchasing a high ticket item. I think there are MORE opportunities to haggle when an AH is present because players have access to so many more sellers information. As far as the AH goes ... it's not a soda machine either .... that's why they have a broker running it. People drop off their goods to the broker, establish the price they want for said goods, and the broker gets a cut when they sell. Aren't gold sinks important? An AH is a massive gold sink ... I thought those were important for the game. Has any consideration been given to the fact that a pretty large gold sink would be removed from the game if an AH is not present?
Sicario said:I think advocating for separate servers with different rulesets and mechanics is the wrong approach. I see it come up often in many different threads, as you've pointed to. I think we need to feel free to actively discuss differing positions and concepts to best help the dev team see the different perspectives, but when the time comes, I hope that no matter what final decisions are made, we can unify and try to support the game and mechanics as best we can, giving feedback when necessary.
I appreciate replies like this.
Even if I still think it would be cool to have a server with no AH, and that server would be one I would prefer to play on, that does not mean it is going to happen and I fully get this. If AH ends up in the game, I will happily adapt to it and utilize it, but no AH server would still be my server of choice if it happens.
oneADseven said:There will be monopolies in both versions but they are more difficult to maintain when there is an AH because of the increased supply and increased competition. It's also much easier for the players who can't fully dedicate themselves to the trade economy to get involved as a market player. Rather than sitting in the bazaar all day, they can play the market sparingly whenever they log on and see what deals they can find. You can still barter with an AH being present in the game. I always bartered before purchasing a high ticket item. I think there are MORE opportunities to haggle when an AH is present because players have access to so many more sellers information. As far as the AH goes ... it's not a soda machine either .... that's why they have a broker running it. People drop off their goods to the broker, establish the price they want for said goods, and the broker gets a cut when they sell. Aren't gold sinks important? An AH is a massive gold sink ... I thought those were important for the game. Has any consideration been given to the fact that a pretty large gold sink would be removed from the game if an AH is not present?
So you are suggesting an in game AH run by player brokers? interesting but hard to implement, but it would deal with the issue of the AH just being a soda machine that you order things from every now and again.
As a gold sink I'll grant you your good point. However, allow me also to point out that Diablo 3 AH still ended up with too much money and too many items, sink or no. Either way, I beleive there is a thread on gold sinks, and plenty of ways to make players spend their money. losing money on death (repair), expensive npc only gems/bags, etc
I really appreciate all of the feedback from players that don't want to see an AH in Terminus, but I'd like to point out that while Pantheon is definitely going back to some of the roots of the MMO genre, they also want to create a game that can be fun for new players. FFXIV is a wonderful example of good intentions gone bad and unfortunately that game was scrapped altogether for an extended period of time, before a new WoW-like version came out that was almost the exact opposite of the game in it's original form. Square Enix realized that their system didn't work and rather than trying to find a middle ground, they opted for the extreme of the opposite side of the spectrum, instead catering to every convenience a player could ask for (in all facets of the game, not just the bazaar fiasco). Ironically, the new version of the game has thrived compared to expectations. I don't want to see something like that to happen to Pantheon, so I want to share several factors that are very important to modern day gamers that should seriously be considered before entertaining the idea of not having an AH:
1) First and foremost, players want to feel like they are getting a good value for anything they buy or sell. This should be pretty self explanatory; nobody wants to feel like they are being taken advantage of, so market information is of utmost importance when it comes to a player understanding the true value of what their prized merchandise is worth.
2) People want to sell things with the least amount of time and effort as possible. If that means paying a fee to the broker, that's something most players can live with because it's a relatively small opportunity cost. Most people will feel that they can more than make up any fees they pay by simply going out and adventuring. Rather than going through the hassle of trying to sell their goods for 20% more, they'd rather spend that time adventuring and have 20% more goods to sell the next time they hit town.
3) When it comes to buyers, they want to see a broad scope of what items are available in the market, and when they find a specific item the like, they want the ability to purchase that item as quickly, cheaply, and effortlessly as possible. Some people have a natural tendency to always want to barter or haggle, where others just want to move on with their day and spend their time doing something that is more befitting of their playstyle.
4) There are plenty of players out there who do not want to use a 3'rd party site in order to make an educated buy or sell decision. It takes away from the immersion of the game, but many of them will do it if they feel that there is a significant advantage to be had. In FFXIV, for example, 3'rd party sites were created (basically out of necessity) to help the majority of the playerbase have a better understanding of what was going on in the market. To most players dismay, utilizing this site gave them the best chance possible to extract full value from any buy or sell trade they took part in.
5) Last but not least, many players do not appreciate being bogged down by WTS trade spam. This kind of thing can get so out of hand, so fast, that some players will leave trade channels or block people using WTS altogether in an effort to avoid it. When an in-game market doesen't allow players to enjoy the convenience factors from the prior examples, this type of trade spam becomes commonplace.
Again, I understand and appreciate the concerns of players who enjoy a bazaar like system. What I am beginning to question is if people truly understand the risk/cost of using such a system as it pertains to modern day gamers. As someone who played FFXIV in it's original form, I can say without a doubt that I made an absolute killing in that game. Because of the lack of convenience in the market system, players like myself who were willing to tough it out and navigate through the cesspool of retainers were able to manipulate the market in ways that are unfathomable. Unless another player was able to spend a massive amount of time invested in the market, like I was, it was so inconvenient that they would rather just sell or buy from the few market barons in the area who had a chokehold on the supply/demand of anything worthwhile. As a former market baron, I am coming forward now and saying that if a market system like that exists, I will absolutely do the same exact thing. I'd rather spend my time out in the game adventuring the wonderful world of Terminus, but if the game is going to incentivize market monopolies and information manipulation, I'm going to position myself to take advantage of that.
With all of that being said, I would also like to point out that my wife is a modern day MMO gamer. I am not. I bring up a lot of the threads I see on this forum to gauge her opinion on something because I really want her to play this game with me. I understand that she is only one person, (one that doesen't care to post on these forums at all because she is a casual gamer who will try it out, and if it's fun she'll play it and if it's too annoying she will happily quit) but I feel like she is the type of gamer that Pantheon should be going after. Someone who started out on WoW and has no idea what MMO's were like beforehand. I asked if she felt that a Dungeon Finder would be necessary for her to play this game. She said no, I rejoiced. I asked her if a harsh death penalty would be a turn off for her, she said no, she would like that. I rejoiced more. I asked her if challenging group content being a major focal part of the game would take away from her experience. She said she wouldn't know anything about challenging group content because all she played was WoW and she absolutely hated it (she hated the PVE, she enjoyed the PVP), so she was neutral. I have asked her about a lot of the different oldschool concepts that Pantheon is running with, and for the most part, she was cool with them. Finally, I asked her about an AH ... was this something she would need? She said yes. To my surprise, she actually had memories of me playing FFXIV pre ARR many years ago, and sitting around in the marketplace all day. She had no idea why or how I could spend my time doing something like that because of how monotonous it was, and anti-adventure it seemed. Quite frankly, she said that she would not even consider playing a game that did not have an AH unless I offered to manage handling all of her trade affairs for her. (Please no.)
Again, I'm not saying that she is the perfect example of who VR should be going after, but I will say that she is a part of a silent party out there that doesen't care to make posts on these forums. There are a lot of players just like her who are occupied with something else right now who really don't know anything about Pantheon unless they're related to someone obsessed with it like I am. In order for Pantheon to succeed, VR is going to need to attract more than just the oldschool gamers. I understand it's a niche game and I am all for bringing back that old MMO feeling ... but it needs to be done in moderation. VR needs to pick and choose it's battles. "Loot" is very important to people because it's a tangible reward for their efforts ... when dealing with said "loot" a lot of people don't want to play a mini-game inside the game which is learning the ropes of a bazaar or using 3'rd party sites to help facilitate efficient trade value. From my perspective, I can tell you that any non-AH system will be very difficult for a new player to learn. There are so many oldschoolers out there just like myself who know how to manipulate a system like that, that it will create a very real barrier to entry for anybody wanting to consistently get a fair deal in the market.
I am not saying all of this because I expect anybody to conform to my ideals or that the game be made easier, or less immersive. I am bringing these points up and directly referencing FFXIV as where that path can lead. I'm not saying that Pantheon would go down that same path if presented with the same dilemma, but it is something that might need to be addressed (we don't want to scare away modern gamers for a sense of nostalgia unless the benefit outweights the cost) if the subscriptions aren't pouring in and maintained as much as we all hope. I am all for finding a middle ground ... and personally, I feel the best way to achieve that, is to find a way to balance the AH in a way that can help provide the type of immersion that bazaar type players are looking for. Rather than screaming in caps "DEATH TO THE AUCTION HOUSE!!!!" let's try to think of ways that it can be successfully implemented into the game, without removing the notion that other more personal methods of trade are also completely viable. It's quite the daunting task, but I'm sure plenty of you can redirect your negative energy in wanting to see it removed from the game into positive energy on how it could be improved, limited, or innovated upon. If you managed to read all of this without skipping through ... you get a cookie. Message me in game when this comes out and I got you. =D
There is a way to have a bazaar system that has parts of an AH style setup. First, why is the AH so popular? Answer is convience and ease of use. Click around, search, get a lot of results, and move out. It's a very business like approach to selling in game items and works best with high volume things like potions, crafting materials, etc.
What is nice about a bazaar? The chance to haggle, talk to people, and have one place to go for shopping. Not as easy as the AH to use but still pretty close. You have to run around to the different players but you can still shop pretty easily and sell some of your items to people with market orders up.
The last option is a flea market setup where you go to an area with people shouting out their WTB and WTS and it's a bit of chaos. Total personal interaction but not much fun if you are a walk in, buy what you want, walk out type of person.
I think the answer is a combination of the three styles. Have a bazaar area where people go to buy and sell. Limit the amount of items the people can buy or sell. Have a easy to use interface that allows for shopping the limited items to be bought or sold. This gives the AH interface for searching, the bazaar level interaction in the main, and the flea market operation for items which are not able to be put into the limited merchant slots.
oneADseven said:I want to share several factors that are very important to modern day gamers that should seriously be considered before entertaining the idea of not having an AH:
I feel I should alert you that pantheon is not aimed at modern day gamers, and actually condemn's their beliefs as far as I can tell
BeaverBiscuit said:oneADseven said:I want to share several factors that are very important to modern day gamers that should seriously be considered before entertaining the idea of not having an AH:
I feel I should alert you that pantheon is not aimed at modern day gamers, and actually condemn's their beliefs as far as I can tell
I don't think that's the case at all. I seem to remember hearing interviews with Brad where he talked about wanting to attract modern day gamers as well. Not necessarily cater to their standards, but create a game that would be enjoyable for both oldschool gamers AND modern day gamers. I don't think it's ever a smart business decision to condemn a specific playerbase, particularly when that playerbase is absolutely dominant in the genre.
oneADseven said:BeaverBiscuit said:oneADseven said:I want to share several factors that are very important to modern day gamers that should seriously be considered before entertaining the idea of not having an AH:
I feel I should alert you that pantheon is not aimed at modern day gamers, and actually condemn's their beliefs as far as I can tell
I don't think that's the case at all. I seem to remember hearing interviews with Brad where he talked about wanting to attract modern day gamers as well. Not necessarily cater to their standards, but create a game that would be enjoyable for both oldschool gamers AND modern day gamers. I don't think it's ever a smart business decision to condemn a specific playerbase, particularly when that playerbase is absolutely dominant in the genre.
actually niche marketing is a good marketing strategy. This game would be lookin alot like a better graphics version of WoW if they were aiming it at everyone rather than a niche. But maybe your right about them wanting to hybrid it? either way even hybriding mass produced mmo values wouldnt make a fantastic case for the views of new gamers
BeaverBiscuit said:oneADseven said:BeaverBiscuit said:oneADseven said:I want to share several factors that are very important to modern day gamers that should seriously be considered before entertaining the idea of not having an AH:
I feel I should alert you that pantheon is not aimed at modern day gamers, and actually condemn's their beliefs as far as I can tell
I don't think that's the case at all. I seem to remember hearing interviews with Brad where he talked about wanting to attract modern day gamers as well. Not necessarily cater to their standards, but create a game that would be enjoyable for both oldschool gamers AND modern day gamers. I don't think it's ever a smart business decision to condemn a specific playerbase, particularly when that playerbase is absolutely dominant in the genre.
actually niche marketing is a good marketing strategy. This game would be lookin alot like a better graphics version of WoW if they were aiming it at everyone rather than a niche. But maybe your right about them wanting to hybrid it? either way even hybriding mass produced mmo values wouldnt make a fantastic case for the views of new gamers
I'm not saying niche marketing is a bad strategy, I understand completely how it works. I do it every day for my business. Having a niche product though ... that limits your overall growth potential. Again, a great deal of success can still be had, even with a niche product. When I think of niche products I think of gluten free rye bread. For someone that really likes rye bread but can't have gluten in their diet, you have a cornered market .. but good luck expanding your business once you've captured your target market. I think the goal is to bring back some of the oldschool mechanics that we loved, but also utilize some of the positive aspects of how the MMO genre has evolved. Mix in some VR innovation and you have Pantheon. That's my interpretation, anyway.
Here is a link of a gluten free rye bread company: http://www.theglutenfreeshoppe.com/default/udis-gluten-free-deli-soft-rye-style-bread-one-of-a-kind.html
It really is a thing, and it's one of a kind, according to them. I don't think they'd be in business very long if they didn't have a gluten free version of everything else to help keep the lights on.
I don't think it makes sense to get into the MMO market with a super niche mentality. Maybe it works for some game out there but I damn sure hope that isn't the ceiling of growth potential that Pantheon has in mind. I want the guys making this game to get rich for their efforts, not just bring back nostalgia for the sake of catering to oldschoolers.
I think you are right basically but consider that places where they might use more modern systems might or might not line up with what you hope as far as AHs
That being said, have you read this?
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/176/pantheon-new-features-and-new-players
Zorkon said:Kilsin said:We will not be splitting the community up with servers for everyones likes and dislikes, there will be main PvE servers, some RP servers and some PvP servers, from there we will maybe consider some special ruleset servers if there is enough interest other than that, you will have to choose a server carefully and make it your permanent home.
People need to remember that this is our game, we are making what we want to play based on all of our experience as gamers and game creators. :)
Hey Kilsin
I think relevant to the topic as it would have a direct effect on the economy and how auction house or no auction house would work. Can you confirm or deny that goods sold at just any old merchant by player-X will be available for purchase by player-Y from that same merchant, or will they just disappear?
Yes, NPCs retain goods, we have already mentioned this numerous times my friend, Brad has spoken about it in interviews and it has been brought up in Podcasts. ;)
I appreciate where you're coming from, but I hope that you can appreciate where those like me are coming from as well.
oneADseven said:1) First and foremost, players want to feel like they are getting a good value for anything they buy or sell.
An AH doesnt inherently do this. For common items it deflates their price the point that they have no value because every pud can throw a dozen of them up on market hoping to be the lucky person of hundreds to get the sale. And to ensure they are they must further deflate the price below that of all others. For rare items there are likely to be those gaming the system and cornering the market by buying up all of an item and jacking the prices to inflated levels. Unless your proposed "new guy" is lucky enough to be looking at the AH at precisely the right time when someone not part of the AH manipulation puts something up for sale, and this proposed uneducated "new guy" also understands that this rare item is in fact rare and he should snap it up as quickly as possible before the manipulators grab it, then the argument falls flat. Regardless, it assumes that said "new guy" both has no understanding of the economy and doesnt know what things are worht, but also knows that a rare market oppurtunity stands before him?
oneADseven said:2) People want to sell things with the least amount of time and effort as possible.
Macro-start
/auc WTS Widget
Macro-end
Enter a new zone - *tap*
Repeat while playing the game normally. No going to town, no going to an AH. Essentially no time spent.
oneADseven said:
3) When it comes to buyers, they want to see a broad scope of what items are available in the market, and when they find a specific item the like, they want the ability to purchase that item as quickly, cheaply, and effortlessly as possible. Some people have a natural tendency to always want to barter or haggle, where others just want to move on with their day and spend their time doing something that is more befitting of their playstyle.
I cant argue that people want what they want now, without effort, without knowlege, without risk. I'll appologize for being blunt, but tough. That's not a game I'd like to play.
oneADseven said:
4) There are plenty of players out there who do not want to use a 3'rd party site in order to make an educated buy or sell decision. It takes away from the immersion of the game, but many of them will do it if they feel that there is a significant advantage to be had. In FFXIV, for example, 3'rd party sites were created (basically out of necessity) to help the majority of the playerbase have a better understanding of what was going on in the market. To most players dismay, utilizing this site gave them the best chance possible to extract full value from any buy or sell trade they took part in.
And there is no need to. Over the course of normal gameplay you'll be able to see auctions occasionally pop up. You'll be able to see, "WTS Block of Goobersnot - 100p". And people being what they are you'll either see no response because the item has been sold, or you'll see at least one person say "You're out of your mind, that's worth 10p." You (and every other gamer) is perfectly able to say in chat, "Anyone have a suggestion for a good replacement item for XYZ on a shaman?". It's likely to start a good conversation, and hey, who knows, maybe you'll meet some cool people in the process.
oneADseven said:
5) Last but not least, many players do not appreciate being bogged down by WTS trade spam. This kind of thing can get so out of hand, so fast, that some players will leave trade channels or block people using WTS altogether in an effort to avoid it. When an in-game market doesen't allow players to enjoy the convenience factors from the prior examples, this type of trade spam becomes commonplace.
Every game at this point allows you to create your own chat tabs or windows and chat filters to control what channels go where. You can create and wholly ignore a trade tab if you choose to, and until you choose not to, with absolute no impact to your normal gameplay. They also allow /ignore for any person that's abusing other channels. If find this scenario for less annoying that the 50-200 mules incesantly packed around AH brokers or bulletin boards you must wade thru only to find the aforementioned extremes of near-zero value and grossly and artificially inflated prices of goods.
oneADseven said:With all of that being said, I would also like to point out that my wife is a modern day MMO gamer. I am not. I bring up a lot of the threads I see on this forum to gauge her opinion on something because I really want her to play this game with me. I understand that she is only one person, (one that doesen't care to post on these forums at all because she is a casual gamer who will try it out, and if it's fun she'll play it and if it's too annoying she will happily quit) but I feel like she is the type of gamer that Pantheon should be going after. Someone who started out on WoW and has no idea what MMO's were like beforehand. I asked if she felt that a Dungeon Finder would be necessary for her to play this game. She said no, I rejoiced. I asked her if a harsh death penalty would be a turn off for her, she said no, she would like that.
If your wife tries Pantheon and it's not for her, then there's no fault on the part of Pantheon or your wife. It's just not the right fit. And there's nothing in the world wrong with that. Pantheon does not mean to be all things for all people, and if they stick to that they stand to be one of the more stable if not largest MMO's on the current market. There are a multitude of games that have "modern" mechanics that appease to a more easy-access crowd. Is there some reason that Pantheon must attempt to cater to that same crowd? Or can they perhaps target an admitted minority of gamers who are sick to death of that kind of game.
(As a side note, I despise the term "modern" for a lot of the systems we debate. "Modern" does not inherently equate to "better". A hell of a lot of our modern comforts promote an entitlement and laziness that I find to be rather frightening and appauling.)
Kilsin said:Zorkon said:Kilsin said:We will not be splitting the community up with servers for everyones likes and dislikes, there will be main PvE servers, some RP servers and some PvP servers, from there we will maybe consider some special ruleset servers if there is enough interest other than that, you will have to choose a server carefully and make it your permanent home.
People need to remember that this is our game, we are making what we want to play based on all of our experience as gamers and game creators. :)
Hey Kilsin
I think relevant to the topic as it would have a direct effect on the economy and how auction house or no auction house would work. Can you confirm or deny that goods sold at just any old merchant by player-X will be available for purchase by player-Y from that same merchant, or will they just disappear?
Yes, NPCs retain goods, we have already mentioned this numerous times my friend, Brad has spoken about it in interviews and it has been brought up in Podcasts. ;)
Go go Gadget Vendor Diving !
Woot !
First post on this topic, I've been reading trough the posts and one of the main concerns seem to be time spent selling/buying vs time doing other stuff, there is no way both sides will get it their way so there needs to be a middle ground.
My suggestion is no AH for valuable or rare / hard to obtain items, so if you want to craft or buy that supper awesome sword of piece of gear you need to do face to face trading.
There could be a AH for common/bulk items used for things like basic crafting so you don't need to spend a lot of time selling them.
The common/bulk item AH should be placed in a neutral city (if neutral cities exist), and the bulletin board idea (where you can post a note with the items you're selling) should be near the players commom trading spot (wherever that will be).
I think these are nice compromies, they keep the player interaction when trading for important/valuable items, and gives the players that do not want to partake in long trading duties a way to sell a small portion of their wares.
Thanks for the reply Feyshtey. I definitely appreciate your perspective and am doing my best to look at this topic with the big picture in mind. Regardless of the outcome, I'm sure that I'll manage to do just fine when it comes to adapting to whatever system that ultimately makes it's way into Pantheon.
oneADseven said:
1) First and foremost, players want to feel like they are getting a good value for anything they buy or sell.
Feyshtey response:
"An AH doesnt inherently do this. For common items it deflates their price the point that they have no value because every pud can throw a dozen of them up on market hoping to be the lucky person of hundreds to get the sale. And to ensure they are they must further deflate the price below that of all others. For rare items there are likely to be those gaming the system and cornering the market by buying up all of an item and jacking the prices to inflated levels. Unless your proposed "new guy" is lucky enough to be looking at the AH at precisely the right time when someone not part of the AH manipulation puts something up for sale, and this proposed uneducated "new guy" also understands that this rare item is in fact rare and he should snap it up as quickly as possible before the manipulators grab it, then the argument falls flat. Regardless, it assumes that said "new guy" both has no understanding of the economy and doesnt know what things are worht, but also knows that a rare market oppurtunity stands before him?"
My response:
When it comes to this, I don't think the issue is a permanent flaw that can't be resolved by tweaking how the AH operates. There are many things that can be done to combat undercutting, and there are many ways to limit the potential of market monopoly. As I mentioned near the end of my post, rather than removing the AH and all of it's associated benefits, why not consider evolving the system? Instead of the AH being looked at as a tool to help facilitate selling, why not add in the option to create buy orders? This would open up the potential for a bi-transactional economy where players on both sides of the spectrum are able to help drive the competition for any specific item. This can help level the playing field in regards to the true opportunity cost of every item, thus enabling the players who prefer a more convenient trade system the option to sell to the highest buyer rather than compete with the lowest seller.
oneADseven said:
2) People want to sell things with the least amount of time and effort as possible.
Feyshtey response:
"Macro-start
/auc WTS Widget
Macro-end
Enter a new zone - *tap*
Repeat while playing the game normally. No going to town, no going to an AH. Essentially no time spent."
My response:
Except there is plenty of time spent setting up a macro every time a player has a new widget they wish to sell, and this also encourages trade spam.
oneADseven said:
3) When it comes to buyers, they want to see a broad scope of what items are available in the market, and when they find a specific item the like, they want the ability to purchase that item as quickly, cheaply, and effortlessly as possible. Some people have a natural tendency to always want to barter or haggle, where others just want to move on with their day and spend their time doing something that is more befitting of their playstyle.
Feyshtey response:
"I cant argue that people want what they want now, without effort, without knowlege, without risk. I'll appologize for being blunt, but tough. That's not a game I'd like to play."
My response:
Again, please take a look at the bigger picture. I understand that having an open AH system is not ideal for your tastes, but what about all of the players who think differently? This isn't an effort to downplay your preference, but rather shed light on those who appreciate an easier to use system. I'm not saying that either party is right or wrong, but when it comes to game design, I think there is value in having a system that can accomodate players on both sides of the spectrum.
oneADseven said:
4) There are plenty of players out there who do not want to use a 3'rd party site in order to make an educated buy or sell decision. It takes away from the immersion of the game, but many of them will do it if they feel that there is a significant advantage to be had. In FFXIV, for example, 3'rd party sites were created (basically out of necessity) to help the majority of the playerbase have a better understanding of what was going on in the market. To most players dismay, utilizing this site gave them the best chance possible to extract full value from any buy or sell trade they took part in.
Feyshtey response:
"And there is no need to. Over the course of normal gameplay you'll be able to see auctions occasionally pop up. You'll be able to see, "WTS Block of Goobersnot - 100p". And people being what they are you'll either see no response because the item has been sold, or you'll see at least one person say "You're out of your mind, that's worth 10p." You (and every other gamer) is perfectly able to say in chat, "Anyone have a suggestion for a good replacement item for XYZ on a shaman?". It's likely to start a good conversation, and hey, who knows, maybe you'll meet some cool people in the process."
My response:
The player comments you shared frequently come up in games that use an AH as well. I've seen plenty of instances where players attempt to find a better deal than what is available on the AH, often citing the lowest price available on the AH as a means to initiate barter. It creates a starting point in the sense that "Hey, I'm looking to buy a block of Goobersnot. It's currently on the AH for 100p, I'm willing to pay 90p. PST if you have one." or from a sellers perspective "WTS block of goobersnot for 90p. Lowest price on AH is 100p, PST if you want to take advantage of this great deal!"
oneADseven said:
5) Last but not least, many players do not appreciate being bogged down by WTS trade spam. This kind of thing can get so out of hand, so fast, that some players will leave trade channels or block people using WTS altogether in an effort to avoid it. When an in-game market doesen't allow players to enjoy the convenience factors from the prior examples, this type of trade spam becomes commonplace.
Feyshtey response:
"Every game at this point allows you to create your own chat tabs or windows and chat filters to control what channels go where. You can create and wholly ignore a trade tab if you choose to, and until you choose not to, with absolute no impact to your normal gameplay. They also allow /ignore for any person that's abusing other channels. If find this scenario for less annoying that the 50-200 mules incesantly packed around AH brokers or bulletin boards you must wade thru only to find the aforementioned extremes of near-zero value and grossly and artificially inflated prices of goods."
My response:
Just because people have the option to ignore other players or chat channels doesen't mean that it's an ideal solution. In a group centric game, I think it's very counter-productive to promote a system that encourages the type of trade spam that many players don't appreciate. This can ruin the chance of player A ever communicating with player B, all because player B really wanted to sell an item one day. Years down the road, some players may have 50-100 people (or more!) on ignore, thus limiting the overall potential of player interaction for that person. It's quite possible that player A and player B could have ended up becoming great friends, but because player B really wanted to sell an item one day early on in the life of the server, player A decided to ignore that person and thus destroy any chance of that ever happening.
oneADseven said:
With all of that being said, I would also like to point out that my wife is a modern day MMO gamer. I am not. I bring up a lot of the threads I see on this forum to gauge her opinion on something because I really want her to play this game with me. I understand that she is only one person, (one that doesen't care to post on these forums at all because she is a casual gamer who will try it out, and if it's fun she'll play it and if it's too annoying she will happily quit) but I feel like she is the type of gamer that Pantheon should be going after. Someone who started out on WoW and has no idea what MMO's were like beforehand. I asked if she felt that a Dungeon Finder would be necessary for her to play this game. She said no, I rejoiced. I asked her if a harsh death penalty would be a turn off for her, she said no, she would like that. I asked her if challenging group content being a major focal part of the game would take away from her experience. She said she wouldn't know anything about challenging group content because all she played was WoW and she absolutely hated it (she hated the PVE, she enjoyed the PVP), so she was neutral.
I have asked her about a lot of the different oldschool concepts that Pantheon is running with, and for the most part, she was cool with them. Finally, I asked her about an AH ... was this something she would need? She said yes. To my surprise, she actually had memories of me playing FFXIV pre ARR many years ago, and sitting around in the marketplace all day. She had no idea why or how I could spend my time doing something like that because of how monotonous it was, and anti-adventure it seemed. Quite frankly, she said that she would not even consider playing a game that did not have an AH unless I offered to manage handling all of her trade affairs for her. (Please no.)
Feyshtey response:
"If your wife tries Pantheon and it's not for her, then there's no fault on the part of Pantheon or your wife. It's just not the right fit. And there's nothing in the world wrong with that. Pantheon does not mean to be all things for all people, and if they stick to that they stand to be one of the more stable if not largest MMO's on the current market. There are a multitude of games that have "modern" mechanics that appease to a more easy-access crowd. Is there some reason that Pantheon must attempt to cater to that same crowd? Or can they perhaps target an admitted minority of gamers who are sick to death of that kind of game.
(As a side note, I despise the term "modern" for a lot of the systems we debate. "Modern" does not inherently equate to "better". A hell of a lot of our modern comforts promote an entitlement and laziness that I find to be rather frightening and appauling.)"
My response:
With this type of mentality, what happens if VR ultimately decides to implement an AH into the game? You already made it clear in saying that "I cant argue that people want what they want now, without effort, without knowlege, without risk. I'll appologize for being blunt, but tough. That's not a game I'd like to play." -- so does this instead mean that Pantheon is just not the right fit for you, and there is nothing wrong with that? I see things differently ... I see that as a major problem. You have more than 600 posts on this forum, and it would be a real shame if VR lost out on you as a potential lifelong customer because they implemented a feature that you didn't agree with. If Pantheon delivered 90 other gameplay elements that you absolutely loved, would you seriously consider not playing it just because of an AH feature? This is where I feel the line should be drawn ... VR is going to market to both oldschool gamers and modern gamers, and one of the most difficult challenges for them from a development perspective is in deciding which gameplay elements are going to cater to either side of that equation. I feel that if VR delivers a game where oldschool gamers can feel mostly at home, those oldschool gamers would/should be able to compromise on certain things that allow modern gamers to share that home with them. There should be a balance in mind that doesen't completely alienate either party, and the more open-minded each party is, the easier it is for VR to develop a game that has the potential to exceed our expectations. Just like you said, "Modern" does not equal "Better" but the same argument can be made that "Oldschool" does not equal "Better" so why is it okay for you to have that same sense of entitlement, who others might find selfish or narrow-sighted?
At the end of the day, in my wifes case, she is going to play this game one way or another. If I have to manage all of her trade affairs, I'll do it. Unfortunately, there are plenty of other modern gamers that don't have that luxury. Point being, I strongly recommend that players keep an open mind when it comes to what gameplay features they have ultimatums for. For me, I'm looking for a challenge. That's my ultimatum. Whether that challenge takes on the form of group content, raiding content, sense of travel, the economy, character progression, or many other possibilities, that's ultimately what I am looking for. Ideally, the more areas that this challenge is present, the better. If VR can deliver on most of my expectations, I'll be a happy camper. If it only delivers on a fraction of what I'm looking for, I'll have to weigh the pros/cons of many different variables and then decide if there is a better option out there. Expecting Pantheon to deliver on our every whim and desire is an unreasonable expectation, and more often than not, players who have those sort of expectations will end up being disappointed. I truly believe that VR is on the verge of creating something that can accomodate multiple player personalities, but again, finding that balance is of utmost importance. I mentioned how important it is that VR pick their battles wisely ... as a consumer, you don't have to do that. You can have as many ultimatums as you like. The more you have though, the more likely you are to be disappointed ... VR has made it clear that they will want to position themselves as an attractive option for many different player types, and I think it would be wise for all of us to temper our expectations and keep that very important fact in mind.
I really hate to tell people but EQ had an AH pretty much before the bazaar even hit. You didn't even have to sit in EC. /join trade was all it took. That was/is no different except for the fact that you had to be online. So all these arguments against having it are pointless. The only thing you get by keeping the AH out of the game is to be able to scam clueless people who wouldn't check a pricing website. Change with the times and realize that not everything EQ had was a good thing. The more you take away from the more casual crowd the less money the game makes which hurts everyone in the long run.
Sad part is, most people who argue against the AH really don't even care if they have one or not. If that's the case for you then stop trying to take it away because it is a game breaker for a lot of people.
oneADseven said:When it comes to this, I don't think the issue is entirely that of the AH itself. There are many things that can be done to combat undercutting, and there are many ways to limit the potential of market monopoly. As I mentioned near the end of my post, rather than removing the AH and all of it's associated benefits, why not consider evolving the system? Instead of the AH being looked at as a tool to help facilitate selling, why not add in the option to create buy orders? This would open up the potential for a bi-transactional economy where players on both sides of the spectrum are able to help drive the competition for any specific item. This can help level the playing field in regards to the true opportunity cost of every item, thus enabling the players who don't want to master the market the option to sell to the highest buyer rather than compete with the lowest seller.
One way to undercut the floor of an item's price is to allow vendors to buy anything tradeable. At some point the price the a player will pay drops below what you could get for just selling to a vendor. This is true in both an AH and in a player-driven open market, and I'm not familiar with a game in which it doesnt exist. But with an AH, how do you limit a monopoly when any person can search all instances for sale of a specific item and view a list of asking prices, and then just click the "buy" button? What prevents them from buying all of said item, and jacking the price up on their posting of the same item? Unless you're suggesting that the system is more of a bulletin board where you're still required to send a msg to the seller and arrange the buy, a monopoly is precisely what will happen. Or do you propose that every account have a limited number of transactions they are allowed to perform in a given period? At best you make an AH a local rather than global function, and the monopolies created are localized.
oneADseven said:"Macro-start
/auc WTS Widget
Macro-end
Enter a new zone - *tap*
Repeat while playing the game normally. No going to town, no going to an AH. Essentially no time spent."Except there is plenty of time spent setting up a macro every time a player has a new widget they wish to sell, and also encourages trade spam.
You can't honestly be suggesting that,
Right-click > *type* "/WTS flowing black silk sash - 200p" > Click OK
Is too inconvenient when compared to,
Right-click > *search* "flowing black silk sash" > Click OK
Yes, the actual purchase in the latter is more convenient, but the process to create a macro is so miniscule that suggesting it's too time consuming boggles the mind.
oneADseven said:"I cant argue that people want what they want now, without effort, without knowlege, without risk. I'll appologize for being blunt, but tough. That's not a game I'd like to play."
Again, please take a look at the bigger picture. I understand that having an open AH system is not ideal for your tastes, but what about all of the players who think differently? This isn't an effort to downplay your preference, but rather shed light on those who appreciate an easier to use system. I'm not saying that either party is right or wrong, but when it comes to game design, I think there is value in having a system that can accomodate players on both sides of the spectrum.
All of the other players who think differently have a couple of hundred games to choose from. I have the potential for exactly one. While I agree that neither party is right or wrong, I do think that it is flat out wrong to be told by a those with a host of options that I should have none.
oneADseven said:"And there is no need to. Over the course of normal gameplay you'll be able to see auctions occasionally pop up. You'll be able to see, "WTS Block of Goobersnot - 100p". And people being what they are you'll either see no response because the item has been sold, or you'll see at least one person say "You're out of your mind, that's worth 10p." You (and every other gamer) is perfectly able to say in chat, "Anyone have a suggestion for a good replacement item for XYZ on a shaman?". It's likely to start a good conversation, and hey, who knows, maybe you'll meet some cool people in the process."
The player comments you shared frequently come up in games that use an AH as well. I've seen plenty of instances where players attempt to find a better deal than what is available on the AH, often citing the lowest price available on the AH as a means to initiate barter. It creates a starting point in the sense that "Hey, I'm looking to buy a block of Goobersnot. It's currently on the AH for 100p, I'm willing to pay 90p. PST if you have one." or from a sellers perspective "WTS block of goobersnot for 90p. Lowest price on AH is 100p, PST if you want to take advantage of this great deal!"
And in my experience with games that have an AH, when you say auction that you WTB something you're told to not be a noob and just go to the AH. People don't want to be inconvenienced from their themepark ride long enough to actually perform a transaction, and would prefer to just click the gold exclamation marks and follow the minimap that marks their next quest objective as quickly as possible.
oneADseven said:"Every game at this point allows you to create your own chat tabs or windows and chat filters to control what channels go where. You can create and wholly ignore a trade tab if you choose to, and until you choose not to, with absolute no impact to your normal gameplay. They also allow /ignore for any person that's abusing other channels. If find this scenario for less annoying that the 50-200 mules incesantly packed around AH brokers or bulletin boards you must wade thru only to find the aforementioned extremes of near-zero value and grossly and artificially inflated prices of goods."
Just because people have the option to ignore other players or chat channels doesen't mean that it's an ideal solution. In a group centric game, I think it's very counter-productive to promote a system that encourages the type of trade spam that many players don't appreciate. This can ruin the chance of player A ever communicating with player B, all because player B really wanted to sell an item one day. Years down the road, some players may have 50-100 people (or more!) on ignore, thus limiting the overall potential of player interaction for that person. It's quite possible that player A and player B could have ended up becoming great friends, but because player B really wanted to sell an item one day early on in the life of the server, player A decided to ignore that person and thus destroy the likelihood of that ever happening.
First, it's pretty ironic to say that it's wrong in a cooperative group oriented game to promote the notion of ignoring people who are disruptive and in the next breath promote a system that circumvents all that social interaction. Second, in a game that is heavily reliant on social interaction and which promotes the notion that a player's reputation matters, being disruptive in chat channels should incurr negative ramifications.
oneADseven said:"If your wife tries Pantheon and it's not for her, then there's no fault on the part of Pantheon or your wife. It's just not the right fit. And there's nothing in the world wrong with that. Pantheon does not mean to be all things for all people, and if they stick to that they stand to be one of the more stable if not largest MMO's on the current market. There are a multitude of games that have "modern" mechanics that appease to a more easy-access crowd. Is there some reason that Pantheon must attempt to cater to that same crowd? Or can they perhaps target an admitted minority of gamers who are sick to death of that kind of game.
(As a side note, I despise the term "modern" for a lot of the systems we debate. "Modern" does not inherently equate to "better". A hell of a lot of our modern comforts promote an entitlement and laziness that I find to be rather frightening and appauling.)"
With this type of mentality, what happens if VR ultimately decides to implement an AH into the game? You already made it clear in saying that "I cant argue that people want what they want now, without effort, without knowlege, without risk. I'll appologize for being blunt, but tough. That's not a game I'd like to play." -- so does this instead mean that Pantheon is just not the right fit for you, and there is nothing wrong with that? I see things differently ... I see that as a major problem. You have more than 600 posts on this forum, and it would be a real shame if VR lost out on you as a potential lifelong customer because of how a single feature was implemented in the game. If Pantheon delivered 90 other gameplay elements that you absolutely loved, would you seriously consider not playing it just because of an AH feature? This is where I feel the line should be drawn ... VR is going to market to both oldschool gamers and modern gamers, and one of the most difficult challenges for them from a development perspective is in deciding which gameplay elements are going to cater to either side of that equation. I feel that if they deliver a game where oldschool gamers can feel mostly at home, they would be able to compromise on certain things that would make the modern gamers feel more at hope. There should be a balance in mind that doesen't completely alienate either party, and the more open-minded each party is, the easier it is for VR to develop a game that has the potential to exceed our expectations.
If Pantheon adopts many of the "modern" conveniences that are pervasive in the current market, it'll probably end up being just like the other dozen or so I've attempted to play in the last several years. I'll play it for 2-3 months, be capped on levels, but bored to tears, and quit along with droves of others moving on to the next released product on which they will follow pretty much the same pattern. But if Pantheon sticks to its guns I'll be entertained, engaged and challenged for years, and they'll keep my income and that of tens of thousands of others at a minimum for the duration.
I won't use an auction house. I absolutely can walk away from an item with nary a thought of how much coin it is worth. I'm a casual player. My rpogress is already slow. I acquire coin at a slow pace and I acquire experience at a slow pace. That's part of the game. I have no problem selling to a merchant and letting others merchant dive. An auction house is a diversion for which I will not partake. So I will be someone who may do a shout out to sell an item - at least until I get inundated with people telling me to "shut up and use the auction house." At that point items will either get destroyed (weight or space restriction that I don't want to compromise) or they get sold to a merchant. Merchant divers can find it.
There is absolutely no appealing reason for a person like me to use the auction house. I don't need to buy up items that can be got commonly - say for crafting; I can go acquire those myself for the periods of time I have no one to adventure with because of the timing of when and where I happen to log on. I don't need to buy that super rare item since my enjoyment of the game comes from acquiring that item as part of an adventure. Purchasing it via an auction house has zero appeal. Purchasing it from a player who shouts out in a zone I happen to be in fits in with the "lucky timing of the adventure" and I may engage in a buy/sell at that point (emphasis on the word "may" since, obviously, I also "may not"). People that want to corner the market or manipulate the market or take advantage of the auction house versus those who don't use it can go ahead an do it. It's their subscription and if that's what they want to pay for go right ahead.
So I hope this helps those of you who absolutely enjoy merchant diving to find that hidden gem of an item. I will be one of those players that will sell to a merchant rather than engaging in the diversion that is the auction house (if it helps, I'll even share which server I am on if it helps in making a decision for your server choice). And, I suspect, I will also be one of those people who will be flamed and told to "shut up and use the auction house." As much as I hope the user-base doesn't devolve to that point, I'm a realist and pretty much expect it to happen.
@ Feyshtey
oneADseven said:
When it comes to this, I don't think the issue is entirely that of the AH itself. There are many things that can be done to combat undercutting, and there are many ways to limit the potential of market monopoly. As I mentioned near the end of my post, rather than removing the AH and all of it's associated benefits, why not consider evolving the system? Instead of the AH being looked at as a tool to help facilitate selling, why not add in the option to create buy orders? This would open up the potential for a bi-transactional economy where players on both sides of the spectrum are able to help drive the competition for any specific item. This can help level the playing field in regards to the true opportunity cost of every item, thus enabling the players who don't want to master the market the option to sell to the highest buyer rather than compete with the lowest seller.
One way to undercut the floor of an item's price is to allow vendors to buy anything tradeable. At some point the price the a player will pay drops below what you could get for just selling to a vendor. This is true in both an AH and in a player-driven open market, and I'm not familiar with a game in which it doesnt exist. But with an AH, how do you limit a monopoly when any person can search all instances for sale of a specific item and view a list of asking prices, and then just click the "buy" button? What prevents them from buying all of said item, and jacking the price up on their posting of the same item? Unless you're suggesting that the system is more of a bulletin board where you're still required to send a msg to the seller and arrange the buy, a monopoly is precisely what will happen. Or do you propose that every account have a limited number of transactions they are allowed to perform in a given period? At best you make an AH a local rather than global function, and the monopolies created are localized.
Did you miss the part where I said the AH could implement buy orders, rather than being limited to just selling orders? There are two easy ways to deal with undercutting ... first, you can charge a fee every time someone lists an item. Rather than being able to adjust prices on the fly, force players to pay a fee everytime they relist an item or change it's price. Many games use this method and it's moderately effective. Another option is to put a timer on each auction before it can be removed or the price adjusted. This won't eliminate undercutting entirely, but it will prevent people from being able to sit at the AH all day and constantly re-undercut their goods. The best option, in my opinion, is to include buy orders on the AH. This can help establish a minimum "going rate" on any item because it allows players to offer a set value for what they are looking for. Let's say someone really wants copper ingots, an item that a market player is trying to monopolize. Let's say the market player has 100 of them for sale valued at 25g each. Another player can set a buy order offering 15g for X amount of copper ingots. This way, when someone goes to the AH to sell their copper ingots, they have a choice of trying to undercut the market player, or sell directly to the person who initiated the buy order of 15g each. If a market player really wanted to, they could sell their copper ingots for 25g each while simultaneously putting in a buy order at 15g each. A system like this is win-win-win for buyers, sellers, and market players trying to make a quick buck. The market players are effectively becoming a "middle-man" or broker, by enabling instant transactions (buy orders) for people who don't want to spend the extra time to sell their stuff, and can then relist those items at a higher price to make a profit. If someone out there that has no interest of being a broker for copper ingots, rather, they want to use them for crafting, they can initiate buy-orders in the same way as the market player and benefit from a "deal" any time someone sells through their buy order. This competition on both ends of the spectrum can prevent a true monopoly, but still offers enough incentive to market players to spend their time playing the economy.
oneADseven said:
"Macro-start
/auc WTS Widget
Macro-end
Enter a new zone - *tap*
Repeat while playing the game normally. No going to town, no going to an AH. Essentially no time spent."Except there is plenty of time spent setting up a macro every time a player has a new widget they wish to sell, and also encourages trade spam.
You can't honestly be suggesting that,
Right-click > *type* "/WTS flowing black silk sash - 200p" > Click OK
Is too inconvenient when compared to,
Right-click > *search* "flowing black silk sash" > Click OK
Yes, the actual purchase in the latter is more convenient, but the process to create a macro is so miniscule that suggesting it's too time consuming boggles the mind.
What I am suggesting is that I don't want to create a unique macro for every single item I am trying to sell, nor do I want to spam X amount of macros every time I enter a zone to advertise my goods. Should I just reconfigure one macro that lists all of my goods, adjusting it every time a new item is added or an older item sold? If I decide to change the price on one of my items, am I supposed to have each of my macros memorized, or do I have to pull them up and start inspecting them individually? How would I quickly sort through my macros to be able to update specific price changes, or to change the item in the macro altogether? Would I have to add a description to each macro in order to efficiently sort through them when I want to update something, such as labeling them as "WTS FBSS Macro" or "WTS SSoY Macro"? Not only would it be extremely inconvenient for me, but it would also force me to participate in the trade spam that I want nothing to do with. To suggest that using a macro for every item I want to sell and then spam said macro is as fast or convenient as an auction house boggles my mind, heart and soul.
oneADseven said:
"I cant argue that people want what they want now, without effort, without knowlege, without risk. I'll appologize for being blunt, but tough. That's not a game I'd like to play."
Again, please take a look at the bigger picture. I understand that having an open AH system is not ideal for your tastes, but what about all of the players who think differently? This isn't an effort to downplay your preference, but rather shed light on those who appreciate an easier to use system. I'm not saying that either party is right or wrong, but when it comes to game design, I think there is value in having a system that can accomodate players on both sides of the spectrum.
All of the other players who think differently have a couple of hundred games to choose from. I have the potential for exactly one. While I agree that neither party is right or wrong, I do think that it is flat out wrong to be told by a those with a host of options that I should have none.
I'm sorry, I don't understand how those players have hundreds of different games to choose from. Where is this "host of options" that you speak of? If someone wants to play Pantheon because of The Pantheon Difference (which doesen't say anything about having an AH or not having one), there is no substitute for them just like there is no substitute for you. To suggest that they should just "settle" and go play another game seems pretty ... eh, whatever.
oneADseven said:
"And there is no need to. Over the course of normal gameplay you'll be able to see auctions occasionally pop up. You'll be able to see, "WTS Block of Goobersnot - 100p". And people being what they are you'll either see no response because the item has been sold, or you'll see at least one person say "You're out of your mind, that's worth 10p." You (and every other gamer) is perfectly able to say in chat, "Anyone have a suggestion for a good replacement item for XYZ on a shaman?". It's likely to start a good conversation, and hey, who knows, maybe you'll meet some cool people in the process."
The player comments you shared frequently come up in games that use an AH as well. I've seen plenty of instances where players attempt to find a better deal than what is available on the AH, often citing the lowest price available on the AH as a means to initiate barter. It creates a starting point in the sense that "Hey, I'm looking to buy a block of Goobersnot. It's currently on the AH for 100p, I'm willing to pay 90p. PST if you have one." or from a sellers perspective "WTS block of goobersnot for 90p. Lowest price on AH is 100p, PST if you want to take advantage of this great deal!"
And in my experience with games that have an AH, when you say auction that you WTB something you're told to not be a noob and just go to the AH. People don't want to be inconvenienced from their themepark ride long enough to actually perform a transaction, and would prefer to just click the gold exclamation marks and follow the minimap that marks their next quest objective as quickly as possible.
This type of comment is not appropriate. You're just labeling people and making assumptions. I have played plenty of games with an AH but I have never been someone "that didn't want to be inconvenienced from my themepark ride." Because I prefer an AH system, I like gold exclamation marks and easy quest objectives? Seriously?
oneADseven said:
"Every game at this point allows you to create your own chat tabs or windows and chat filters to control what channels go where. You can create and wholly ignore a trade tab if you choose to, and until you choose not to, with absolute no impact to your normal gameplay. They also allow /ignore for any person that's abusing other channels. If find this scenario for less annoying that the 50-200 mules incesantly packed around AH brokers or bulletin boards you must wade thru only to find the aforementioned extremes of near-zero value and grossly and artificially inflated prices of goods."
Just because people have the option to ignore other players or chat channels doesen't mean that it's an ideal solution. In a group centric game, I think it's very counter-productive to promote a system that encourages the type of trade spam that many players don't appreciate. This can ruin the chance of player A ever communicating with player B, all because player B really wanted to sell an item one day. Years down the road, some players may have 50-100 people (or more!) on ignore, thus limiting the overall potential of player interaction for that person. It's quite possible that player A and player B could have ended up becoming great friends, but because player B really wanted to sell an item one day early on in the life of the server, player A decided to ignore that person and thus destroy the likelihood of that ever happening.
First, it's pretty ironic to say that it's wrong in a cooperative group oriented game to promote the notion of ignoring people who are disruptive and in the next breath promote a system that circumvents all that social interaction. Second, in a game that is heavily reliant on social interaction and which promotes the notion that a player's reputation matters, being disruptive in chat channels should incurr negative ramifications.
I don't feel that an AH circumvents social interaction. I have had plenty of social interaction with people who sell merchandise on the AH. To be clear, again, when I said "Just because people have the option to ignore other players or chat channels doesen't mean that it's an ideal solution. In a group centric game, I think it's very counter-productive to promote a system that encourages the type of trade spam that many players don't appreciate." -- what I meant was: A lot of people don't like trade spam. When you force people to use trade spam, you're permanently destroying a "link" of potential player interaction every time someone ignores a person that participate in the spam. Relationships are being severed before they ever have a chance to form, all because someone hates spam. The guy doing the spamming doesen't really have a choice because it's the only effective way to sell his stuff. The person ignoring them does have a choice to ignore them, and when they make that choice, that "link" of player interaction between those two individuals is gone. To promote a concept that encourages people to spam, in my opinion, is promoting the notion of those spamming players risking being blocked by more and more players every time they try to sell something. To me, that sounds counter-intuitive. That's just my opinion.
muscoby said:I won't use an auction house. I absolutely can walk away from an item with nary a thought of how much coin it is worth. I'm a casual player. My rpogress is already slow. I acquire coin at a slow pace and I acquire experience at a slow pace. That's part of the game. I have no problem selling to a merchant and letting others merchant dive. An auction house is a diversion for which I will not partake. So I will be someone who may do a shout out to sell an item - at least until I get inundated with people telling me to "shut up and use the auction house." At that point items will either get destroyed (weight or space restriction that I don't want to compromise) or they get sold to a merchant. Merchant divers can find it.
There is absolutely no appealing reason for a person like me to use the auction house. I don't need to buy up items that can be got commonly - say for crafting; I can go acquire those myself for the periods of time I have no one to adventure with because of the timing of when and where I happen to log on. I don't need to buy that super rare item since my enjoyment of the game comes from acquiring that item as part of an adventure. Purchasing it via an auction house has zero appeal. Purchasing it from a player who shouts out in a zone I happen to be in fits in with the "lucky timing of the adventure" and I may engage in a buy/sell at that point (emphasis on the word "may" since, obviously, I also "may not"). People that want to corner the market or manipulate the market or take advantage of the auction house versus those who don't use it can go ahead an do it. It's their subscription and if that's what they want to pay for go right ahead.
So I hope this helps those of you who absolutely enjoy merchant diving to find that hidden gem of an item. I will be one of those players that will sell to a merchant rather than engaging in the diversion that is the auction house (if it helps, I'll even share which server I am on if it helps in making a decision for your server choice). And, I suspect, I will also be one of those people who will be flamed and told to "shut up and use the auction house." As much as I hope the user-base doesn't devolve to that point, I'm a realist and pretty much expect it to happen.
I'm right there with you muscoby , that was why I wanted to verify with Kilsin that was an option... the AH, the Spam Fest of the EC Tunnels... not my thing. I remember in EQ as a Wizard once coming accrost a great sword in a vendor once that was so nice and selling for a fraction of what the EC Tunnels was asking that I bought it and made a Ranger Alt, just for the sword.. Let others fight over there "phat lewts" I'm going adventuring.