Liav said:I've never played a game with parsing that didn't give you access to other player's parses.
PARSING is not a DPS meter.
The thread is about DPS meters.
And you will never prevent parsing unless you never ever put any stat about how much damage was done, or healed, or avoided into the chat window. Even then it all likelyhood someone is going to hack it anyway.
Feyshtey said:Liav said:I've never played a game with parsing that didn't give you access to other player's parses.
PARSING is not a DPS meter.
The thread is about DPS meters.
And you will never prevent parsing unless you never ever put any stat about how much damage was done, or healed, or avoided into the chat window. Even then it all likelyhood someone is going to hack it anyway.
You know a parser is a DPS meter right ????
Kalgore said:Feyshtey said:Liav said:I've never played a game with parsing that didn't give you access to other player's parses.
PARSING is not a DPS meter.
The thread is about DPS meters.
And you will never prevent parsing unless you never ever put any stat about how much damage was done, or healed, or avoided into the chat window. Even then it all likelyhood someone is going to hack it anyway.
You know a parser is a DPS meter right ????
It's actually not man. A parser gathers information and displays it after the fact. A DPS Meter is basically a widget that shows a live visual representation of your DPS in-game.
This topic is about DPS Meters, which we will not have in Pantheon. We will, however, allow parsing of combat text displayed in chat, like you could do in EQ and VG for players to use that information to better themselves, learn strats for boss mobs, test weapons, armour, EE's etc. like you could also do in EQ and VG.
I have already stated this, though, so I am not sure why this topic is still gathering support or debating each side, it is not an issue that needs to be discussed. :)
Well you can have a dps meter that appears on screen via a HUD, but just sorting a parse by dps would serve as a dps meter. In fact, the term parsing in EQ was basically interchangeable with dps meter, even if the read out was merely a spreadsheet format.
Anyway, this has devolved into a silly semantics argument. I can tell you right now, when I make a parsing program, part of the functionality will be to do the math. Kind of like every other parser used in mmos... like ever.
Dullahan is correct. This is an argument that has devolved to splitting hairs. However, the difference between a DPS meter and a log parser is basically non-existent. Most log parsers have overlays that can be displayed overtop of your game client with realtime updates. Please take note. "REALTIME". That means while combat is taking place, not after the fact.
I'm not going to be a dick about it, but there isn't a difference as huge as a lot of you are making it out to be. It's the same ****, please educate yourselves.
Edit: Why not just close the thread if things like this are already set in stone? Why even have these discussions at all if our conversations here do not have influence over the development direction?
Liav said:Dullahan is correct. This is an argument that has devolved to splitting hairs. However, the difference between a DPS meter and a log parser is basically non-existent. Most log parsers have overlays that can be displayed overtop of your game client with realtime updates. Please take note. "REALTIME". That means while combat is taking place, not after the fact.
I'm not going to be a dick about it, but there isn't a difference as huge as a lot of you are making it out to be. It's the same ****, please educate yourselves.
Edit: Why not just close the thread if things like this are already set in stone? Why even have these discussions at all if our conversations here do not have influence over the development direction?
It is splitting hairs but the fact of the matter is we won't have in-game DPS or Aggro meters and will unlikely support or allow 3rd party ones, so it will result in people using their own external parsers and choosing which information to take note of, whether it be DPS, Healing, spells/abilities or the numerous other statistics a parser provides.
I don't close topics like this for the simple reason someone else will see it, have an opinion and create a new thread on the subject with a slightly different title, it is best to allow the discussion to continue in one (or as few as possible) consolidated thread so everything is in one place.
Feyshtey said:PARSING is not a DPS meter.
Sorry but that is not true. A DPS meter does parse the combat log to get the results how much damage/healing/decurse count you have done. When there are no specific APIs for DPS meters avaiable. :) And there is also not really a difference whether you parse a chat or an external text file. The first solution is much more comfortable because it is ingame.
Greetings
I understand that the end result of both items is essentially the same, potentially nearly identical; a person knows how much DPS is produced by a character or characters. But we are talking about the design of the game, right?
In the case of a DPS meter it would take a positive development action to make it occur. It'd take a positive development action to even allow other people to do in a way that was intended by the developers.
In the case of a log parser it takes a choice to remain passive and do only what has been done in every MMO that's ever been created for it to occur.
Mechanically and in terms of game design philisophy, those are two very different critters. I acknowledge that a 3rd party could make a parser and design it to behave in a way that makes it a DPS meter. But it's not a DPS meter that was developed in the game. And as I've stated repeatedly, no one is ever going to stop that 3rd party (and most likely dozens of 3rd parties) creating those parsers and in some cases making them act like a DPS meter. I'm a proponent of doing so. But really? That's the level we have to get to in the conversation?
Liav said:Dullahan is correct. This is an argument that has devolved to splitting hairs. However, the difference between a DPS meter and a log parser is basically non-existent. Most log parsers have overlays that can be displayed overtop of your game client with realtime updates. Please take note. "REALTIME". That means while combat is taking place, not after the fact.
I'm not going to be a dick about it, but there isn't a difference as huge as a lot of you are making it out to be. It's the same ****, please educate yourselves.
Edit: Why not just close the thread if things like this are already set in stone? Why even have these discussions at all if our conversations here do not have influence over the development direction?
Spot on
Liav said:Edit: Why not just close the thread if things like this are already set in stone? Why even have these discussions at all if our conversations here do not have influence over the development direction?
I find threads like this informative. It is good to find out that some folks don't see a difference and some do. Therefore in the future I can consider those opinions when I post, as to help my posts be more clear to all involved and have less mis-interpretation of ideas.
Not to mention different cultures, different countries, different regions, different professions use terms in different ways, or terms have a completely different meaning. I think sometimes we forget that we are interacting with a very broad player base.
Kilsin said:It is splitting hairs but the fact of the matter is we won't have in-game DPS or Aggro meters and will unlikely support or allow 3rd party ones, so it will result in people using their own external parsers and choosing which information to take note of, whether it be DPS, Healing, spells/abilities or the numerous other statistics a parser provides.
You're misinforming people to a massive extent.
When someone hears "we won't have in-game DPS or Aggro meters, and will unlikely support or allow 3rd party ones", they will not reasonably conclude that it means "log parsing is okay". I'm not exactly sure where people are getting the idea that there is some huge semantical difference between a "DPS Meter" and a "log parser that provides the exact same function of a DPS Meter from a third party developer".
On a technical level there is a difference. To the general gaming population, the terms are interchangeable. If this is actually VR's stance, it would do your company a lot of good to exercise clarity. Just look at 95% of the complaints people in this thread have about "DPS Meters" and their functions. You can apply these exact same arguments to a log parsing program that serves an identical function.
I'm not accusing you of intentionally misrepresenting things, don't get me wrong. What I am saying is that you're inaccurately representing the views of droves of people by making technicalities that the vast majority of people in this thread don't care about, or weren't aware of to begin with.
Liav said:To the general gaming population, the terms are interchangeable.
No, Liav, they are not not. Most people hear "DPS meter" or "Aggro meter" and picture a meter. A bar that graphically represents a level of input updating constantly in real-time. Most people hear "log parser" and hear "a utility with many capabilities that pours over a log of information and generates a report on the data within based on a chosen set of criteria". They are fundimentally different. A DPS meter cannot, for instance, tell you how many times the mob enraged during a particular fight. It's not built to do that. It meters DPS. Period. A log parser can and almost always does perform additional functions. Does the DPS meter generate it's graphic interface based on information in a log that is being parsed? Potentially, yes. But not inherently. APIs can instead be developed that capture the data from the game output other than logs. So again, a DPS meter is not inherently a log parser.
All this is of course rather ridiculous and sort of childish to argue about. You will likely have the ability to parse logs. You won't have a supported mechanism to do so in game, and potentially are breaking the TOU if you try on your own.
"Pantheon will not support nor allow the use of programs/applications/utilities that change the operation of the game."
"Pantheon will provide a log of activity that was presented in the text boxes for you to access."
These two statements are NOT mutually exclusive and it's a leap to suggest everyone would assume that they are.
[edit] The above quotes are examples, not quotes for Pantheon's team.
Feyshtey said:No, Liav, they are not not. Most people hear "DPS meter" or "Aggro meter" and picture a meter. A bar that graphically represents a level of input updating constantly in real-time.
What the **** DPS meter are you using that has a bar instead of a number? Literally no one thinks that. No one.
Feyshtey said:"Pantheon will not support nor allow the use of programs/applications/utilities that change the operation of the game."
"Pantheon will provide a log of activity that was presented in the text boxes for you to access."
These two statements are NOT mutually exclusive and it's a leap to suggest everyone would assume that they are.
Except that's not what Kilsin said.
Kilsin said (paraphrasing) "we will not support DPS Meters, instead we will support something functionally identical."
I agree that a log parser displays more information than just DPS. That is irrelevant, however, as that is its primary function. The more in-depth analysis is great and not generally provided by a simple DPS meter. I reiterate, it is irrelevant, as DPS is generally the most sought after information by the majority of people who use them. This isn't science, it's an anecdote based on a deacde or more of involvement in games that use a variety of functions to obtain DPS information. In EQ2, 90% of the purpose of ACT to most people was to look at their DPS, and sometimes how their DPS is partitioned into different abilities. Regardless, DPS was always the core.
Given that information, here is what I am hearing Kilsin saying:
"We will not support DPS Meters, instead we will support something functionally identical, probably with even more function than a DPS Meter alone would provide."
Which is great, because I'm on the pro-parsing/pro-DPS side of this argument. I just can't fathom the logic being applied here.
In all my raiding EQ, EQ2, AOC, guildwars, FF14 I have never seen a bar showing DPS, HPS etc etcv is has always beena number nor have I ever thought of DPS as a bar. And for the record a parser is a DPS meter. Maybe a DPS meter isnt a parser but you can use a Parser as a meter so my comment holds true.
Liav said:Feyshtey said:No, Liav, they are not not. Most people hear "DPS meter" or "Aggro meter" and picture a meter. A bar that graphically represents a level of input updating constantly in real-time.
What the **** DPS meter are you using that has a bar instead of a number? Literally no one thinks that. No one.
Feyshtey said:"Pantheon will not support nor allow the use of programs/applications/utilities that change the operation of the game."
"Pantheon will provide a log of activity that was presented in the text boxes for you to access."
These two statements are NOT mutually exclusive and it's a leap to suggest everyone would assume that they are.Except that's not what Kilsin said.
Kilsin said (paraphrasing) "we will not support DPS Meters, instead we will support something functionally identical."
I agree that a log parser displays more information than just DPS. That is irrelevant, however, as that is its primary function. The more in-depth analysis is great and not generally provided by a simple DPS meter. I reiterate, it is irrelevant, as DPS is generally the most sought after information by the majority of people who use them. This isn't science, it's an anecdote based on a deacde or more of involvement in games that use a variety of functions to obtain DPS information. In EQ2, 90% of the purpose of ACT to most people was to look at their DPS, and sometimes how their DPS is partitioned into different abilities. Regardless, DPS was always the core.
Given that information, here is what I am hearing Kilsin saying:
"We will not support DPS Meters, instead we will support something functionally identical, probably with even more function than a DPS Meter alone would provide."
Which is great, because I'm on the pro-parsing/pro-DPS side of this argument. I just can't fathom the logic being applied here.
Kilsin did not say that. ;)
What I actually meant was a DPS meter is a visual representation of a small portion of a parser being shown in real time in-game, we will not support anything that shows information in-game like a DPS/Aggro meter.
We will support the use of a parser that collects information from our combat chat logs which we can control what information is delivered to those logs and allow people to use that information externally to improved themselves etc.
There is a difference, however big or small people want to claim is up to them, but there is still a difference and our stance has been made clear on this. People understand a DPS meter to be a graphical bar or set of numbers in-game appearing in an overlay or in the UI to show them what their dps is in real time, we will not support that.
Using a parser to collecting information by saving it to a .txt file after a session/fight/raid mob and uploading that into a parser and parsing it to be broken down and studied after a fight, sure, knock yourselves out, I will even be using something like that to better myself and my characters and to figure out raid strats but you will not be allowed to tap into that information and display it in real time in-game for the same reason we don't have a mini-map or "?'s" and "!'s" above NPCs heads for quests, we will not give that information to you to make it easier, you need to figure that stuff out by yourself by trial and error, touch, feel, positional awareness, game sense and any other way that will help you become a better player.
So in that sense,
DPS/Aggro meter = No.
Parser = Yes.
Please keep this on topic and away from personal opinions or arguing the finer details, I have made it very clear now and any further arguments or nit picking will result in posts being deleted so this thread can remain open for others to view this information, ask questions and post ideas.
I like the stance Kilsin(VR) is taking on this. I loved recount for WoW it was a helpful tool that could be used after a few wipes to trend who was struggling because many people are afraid to ask for help for fear of getting just kicked out of the group. This allowed us to train and progress the shy player or someone that just didnt know that if they used skills in a certain order they could double the damage they do. However it also allowed us to trend who was along for the ride so that they might be removed and replaced with someone who gave a damn. Parsing will help keep those tools away from those that would just download an app to be a dick. If you have skin in the game via time and effort to make such a tool work well I believe it would make someone feel more responsible with what they do with said tool. That being said if an application were to be made that gave easy access to such a tool... then I can see the concerns of those that want neither. However if CC is implemented correctly and 95% of the fights are not a dps race, then there should be no problem even if a dps meter was included as stated by others on this thread.
In my personal experience in WoW doing HM progression raiding in Cata all the way down to Heroic dungeons (everything else none of this was an issue) The main limiter to players by other players was Item Level and GS(topic for another thread) and DPS reqs was something by game design. Mind you if you play a pure dps character in this game and expect to raid but not maximize your dps and cause wipes from lack of dps, dont be surprised when your called out just like a healer that doesnt heal or a suppourt that doesnt cc/interrupt/buff dpsers when CD's are ready to be blown. Tanks can do no wrong unless you want to spend the next 2 hours finding another one JS.
Feyshtey said:CanadinaXegony said:Well I guess my experiences count for naught. I was in a raiding guild that I quit eventually because they weren't willing to teach me the way they do things. Instead they directed me at you-tube and I was supposed to spend long hours studying raid techniques. Macros were required in order to keep up. Matter of fact they told you which macros gave the best results and again you were to keep track of the dps meters to keep up. There are some egoes out there and I have encountered a few. Again I will say...that current day raiding isn't for me...so I'll be sure to check before joining any guild..if they are "hardcore" raiders..then we won't be a match. It was a bad experience..and I haven't forgotten.
I wouldnt lump "current day raiding" all into one bucket. That's perhaps part of the problem you're facing. I've been in guilds that run the spectrum from the type you're describing where everyone is hyper-elitist over-achievers, to guilds that "raid" the bosses from 3-4 expansions back with about a 50% success rate and have a blast doing it. If you're not the type of person who wants to commit to the standards of a particular guild, don't join that guild. But none of that really has a damn thing to do with a DPS meter existing or not. Either the people you're with are going to give a crap about that or they arent. If they do give a crap, and you dont like that, find different people.
This was a case of our small guild merging with the large raiding guild, had no clue what they were about. I stayed two weeks and left. Anyways..back to dps meters.
Keiiek said:DPS Meter = NO
Third Party Log Parsing = YES
Sorry but this makes like zero sense. If there is log parsing then there will be DPS meters. Even if they don't allow in game addons, ACT will be coded and used as it was in Rift and other games.
Think the biggest issue some have with meters in Pantheon is the fact that support roles will never top straight dps roles. They shouldn't. You can't assume that someone playing a wizard would or even should be telling a shaman that his dps sucks. Logs are used by most high end players for judging themselves or guildmates versus others of the same class. Even in WoW, Rift, etc you judge classes to the same. That way there is no discrepancy between the 2. For instance, some fights require a lot more movement which hurts casters but not melee. Some use heavy aoe which can hurt melee more than casters. So you can't base things off of a different class. But if Wizard A is doing 800 dps at the end of a fight and wizard B is doing 400 then there is a reason to look at the logs and find out why.
If you have people that are the elitist pricks that do nothing but trash talk about a dps meter then its a simple fix, kick them from the group. Pantheon is going to bring back the server side reputation so those elitist pricks will be known. Its up to you to invite them to a group or not.
Kilsin said:Kilsin did not say that. ;)
What I actually meant was a DPS meter is a visual representation of a small portion of a parser being shown in real time in-game, we will not support anything that shows information in-game like a DPS/Aggro meter.
We will support the use of a parser that collects information from our combat chat logs which we can control what information is delivered to those logs and allow people to use that information externally to improved themselves etc.There is a difference, however big or small people want to claim is up to them, but there is still a difference and our stance has been made clear on this. People understand a DPS meter to be a graphical bar or set of numbers in-game appearing in an overlay or in the UI to show them what their dps is in real time, we will not support that.
Using a parser to collecting information by saving it to a .txt file after a session/fight/raid mob and uploading that into a parser and parsing it to be broken down and studied after a fight, sure, knock yourselves out, I will even be using something like that to better myself and my characters and to figure out raid strats but you will not be allowed to tap into that information and display it in real time in-game for the same reason we don't have a mini-map or "?'s" and "!'s" above NPCs heads for quests, we will not give that information to you to make it easier, you need to figure that stuff out by yourself by trial and error, touch, feel, positional awareness, game sense and any other way that will help you become a better player.
So in that sense,
DPS/Aggro meter = No.
Parser = Yes.
Please keep this on topic and away from personal opinions or arguing the finer details, I have made it very clear now and any further arguments or nit picking will result in posts being deleted so this thread can remain open for others to view this information, ask questions and post ideas.
Kils,
Even if parsers don't show live numbers that still remains irrelevant to peoples issues. Once a fight is done people will still be able to see numbers. It doesn't change anything that the numbers aren't live. I mean who links logs during a fight anyway? :P
Enitzu said:Sorry but this makes like zero sense. If there is log parsing then there will be DPS meters. Even if they don't allow in game addons, ACT will be coded and used as it was in Rift and other games.
Perhaps not in that particular sentance he didnt, but repeatedly elsehwere in the thread it's been refered to as IN-GAME DPS meters. I think (but I'm not a dev) that it's clear you wont be prevented from parsing the logs and then outputting that to a meter that is forced to the foreground of your desktop display. You just wont be able to imbed in the game display.
Feyshtey said:Enitzu said:Sorry but this makes like zero sense. If there is log parsing then there will be DPS meters. Even if they don't allow in game addons, ACT will be coded and used as it was in Rift and other games.
Perhaps not in that particular sentance he didnt, but repeatedly elsehwere in the thread it's been refered to as IN-GAME DPS meters. I think (but I'm not a dev) that it's clear you wont be prevented from parsing the logs and then outputting that to a meter that is forced to the foreground of your desktop display. You just wont be able to imbed in the game display.
Enitzu is correct in that it makes zero sense.
Nobody is arguing how it works. What I want to know is why? What is the underlying thought process that leads to saying "no" to something, and "yes" to something functionally identical? I don't even care. I literally don't even care that imbedded DPS Meters spawned from an API don't exist. I just can't figure out what their reasoning is.
Is it because of wasted developer time? Is it because of money? The entire premise of the thread has been that DPS Meters are bad, therefore we won't have them. There is just a sore lack of explanation behind that, considering that they're allowing something functionally identical to exist. Pls halp.
I see a lot of back and forth but not a lot of solutions being offered.
It may not be perfect but, what if we could only see our own damage?...and NPC's damage of course.
You could parse yourself if you want...you could parse other people if they supplied you with their data from a fight.
I only care about my own damage and the damage of the NPC's I'm fighting against 99% of the time anyway.
You would still see a message for abillities/casting and attacking etc. Maybe even crit damage from everyone could be visible. You still wouldn't be able to parse someone's total damage unless you had their consent.
Liav said:Feyshtey said:Enitzu said:Sorry but this makes like zero sense. If there is log parsing then there will be DPS meters. Even if they don't allow in game addons, ACT will be coded and used as it was in Rift and other games.
Perhaps not in that particular sentance he didnt, but repeatedly elsehwere in the thread it's been refered to as IN-GAME DPS meters. I think (but I'm not a dev) that it's clear you wont be prevented from parsing the logs and then outputting that to a meter that is forced to the foreground of your desktop display. You just wont be able to imbed in the game display.
Enitzu is correct in that it makes zero sense.
Nobody is arguing how it works. What I want to know is why? What is the underlying thought process that leads to saying "no" to something, and "yes" to something functionally identical? I don't even care. I literally don't even care that imbedded DPS Meters spawned from an API don't exist. I just can't figure out what their reasoning is.
Is it because of wasted developer time? Is it because of money? The entire premise of the thread has been that DPS Meters are bad, therefore we won't have them. There is just a sore lack of explanation behind that, considering that they're allowing something functionally identical to exist. Pls halp.
I thought I made it pretty clear, Liav.
"you will not be allowed to tap into that information and display it in real time in-game for the same reason we don't have a mini-map or "?'s" and "!'s" above NPCs heads for quests, we will not give that information to you to make it easier, you need to figure that stuff out by yourself by trial and error, touch, feel, positional awareness, game sense and any other way that will help you become a better player."
Why is this so hard to understand, it is very simple, we will not allow visual guides of DPS/Aggro in-game but won't stop you parsing this information out of game, we have not decided yet on how much information we will allow to be sent to the chat log.
Any further posts arguing this topic will be removed.