If there's a combat log, there's a basic performance meter.
DPS meters were borne out of the need for guilds to figure out how to beat raid bosses. It used to be combing through logs and identifying where people could become more efficient on a particular encounter, then it got modded and added to UIs, and now it is the MMO norm.
I'd be fine with VR simply having combat logs, and if a DPS meter emerges from that...whatever.
I'm not aganist DPS parsing, and I actually like it as a comparison tool between myself and other equally geared player of the same class - especially if they're out DPSing me. I like to learn different tactics, methods, etc. that they're using.
As others have said, if Pantheon is solely a DPS race, which I think some of your fear is at Pyye and others, then we have another issue entirely.
The only classes that should truly be concerned with a DPS meter (I hope) in Pantheon would be the classes where their sole function is DPS - such as a rogue. I would want support classes etc. to have other mechanics that wouldn't show up on a DPS sheet, where the players I would choose to group with would understand the game mechanics. If players are complaining that a cleric isn't carrying their weight by doing appropriate DPS, well, then I most likely wouldn't be grouping with that player again (Brings back images of clerics in EQ meleeing with a 6/20 weapon instead of /medding).
Yeah I have a feeling DPS parsing of some sorts will be available because mechanics will not be focused on purely burning a mob down. I can easily see this coming down to fight mechanics and timing and teamwork somehow. I think it is true about most classes, they will not be as pressured by DPS only and will be able to specialize in unique abilities. I CAN see certain classes letting the raid / group down if they do not learn their class well. I am actually okay with this... it is a Reason to be good or get better. It Lets good players stand out and be valuable.
@Liav You know you're probably right, there's some stuff to be learned from WoW.
This is kind of off the topic of strictly DPS Meters and into the realm of general UI, but I think WoW's UI is what, almost certainly unintentionally, killed the sense of adventure in the modern MMO. It started with the icons over NPC's heads. Then it was the mod to speed up the quest text in classic. After that is was the quest tracker to show you exactly where to go on the map, Deadly Boss Mods, and so on. I can't remember the last time I had to actually think for myself in that game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying WoW is a bad game, or that I didn't have some really great experiences with it or that we can't take anything positive from it and apply it here. However, I think if you want to get that nostalgiac, old-school charm out of an MMO, the UI is a great place to start. In particular I think we should be looking at classic EQ for UI cues the same as we'd look for inspiration in other areas of the game's design.
rojo said:@Liav You know you're probably right, there's some stuff to be learned from WoW.
This is kind of off the topic of strictly DPS Meters and into the realm of general UI, but I think WoW's UI is what, almost certainly unintentionally, killed the sense of adventure in the modern MMO. It started with the icons over NPC's heads. Then it was the mod to speed up the quest text in classic. After that is was the quest tracker to show you exactly where to go on the map, Deadly Boss Mods, and so on. I can't remember the last time I had to actually think for myself in that game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying WoW is a bad game, or that I didn't have some really great experiences with it or that we can't take anything positive from it and apply it here. However, I think if you want to get that nostalgiac, old-school charm out of an MMO, the UI is a great place to start. In particular I think we should be looking at classic EQ for UI cues the same as we'd look for inspiration in other areas of the game's design.
The quest icons can be a bit disruptive, yeah. However, I will say that I absolutely hated EQ's original UI and replaced it with a custom UI the moment they became a thing.
To each their own, I guess. WoW definitely has way too invasive of a UI, and I agree that it does make WoW a worse game. The bad part about WoW's addon API is that encounters start being designed around guilds using the addons in question, which is ridiculous. I much prefer UI mods being limited to cosmetic changes only. Horizontal hotbars as opposed to vertical, etc.
Minimalist UI is best UI.
@Liav Yeah the original, orginal UI was a bit much...like 1/3 of the screen viewable space or something as I recall (though maybe there was a toggle for a full screen view?), having to have your book open to med, etc. Stuff like that can go IMO. Definitely in favor of cosmetic things and being able to reposition elements.
Liav said:To each their own, I guess. WoW definitely has way too invasive of a UI, and I agree that it does make WoW a worse game. The bad part about WoW's addon API is that encounters start being designed around guilds using the addons in question, which is ridiculous. I much prefer UI mods being limited to cosmetic changes only. Horizontal hotbars as opposed to vertical, etc.
Minimalist UI is best UI.
/agree across the board.
On the "game designed around the mods" thing, that's not just encounters, it's a ton of stuff. Since TBC wrecked the tankadin spec, almost all my WoW play was split between a heal spec priest or my tank spec DK. A ton of the Death Knight mechanics assume you have Tidy Plates, Blood Shield Tracker, some sort of rune HUD, etc. They assume a shadow priest is running Quartz and all the other stuff that let's get inside the lag window to optimize DPS, etc etc. And pretty much even marginal WoW in either PVE or PVP requires a G13 along with at least 4 buttons + scroll on the mouse.
EQ2 went down a similar whack-a-mole path with the UI. The hardest part of EQ2 is deciding the sequence of button presses, but once you did, just start top left and hit each button in order. Done. Thinking removed from game, just get a G13 and set your UI to essentially auto-play.
WoW does a lot of things right, but add-ons being all but a requirement at this point is not one of them.
There are very easy ways to determine if a healer or tank is not doing their job. People die. Why shouldn't there be an obvious way to measure DPS's success? Are people really not able to perform or so sensitive that they cannot take advice on improvement? Tanks and healers can handle this without issue -- It's very obvious if they don't do their job right.
Every EverQuest fight had a hidden DPS check of sorts --- Even down to the 6 man dungeons/camps. Cant dish out enough damage breaking a camp? Enchanter or Healer goes OOM. You evac or die.
Nagafen/Vox will quickly deplete your healers mana if they breath on everyone enough times. Avatar of War... CH chains and spot healing galore... Same thing.
With DPS checks in raids or dungeon bosses, your damage is *one* significant factor to be measured. It can be *one* reason why a battle is "difficult" or "challenging".
If DPS aren't performing, then your healers mana becomes *one* significant factor to be measured. DPS can be low, but can your healers heal forever? Probably not.
Making both of these a requirement (Good Damage, effecient healing) and it makes for a challenging fight occasionally. I havn't even gotten into mechanics of a fight yet --- Dodging AE's, Adds, traps, ect.
Silvanoshi said:There are very easy ways to determine if a healer or tank is not doing their job. People die. Why shouldn't there be an obvious way to measure DPS's success? Are people really not able to perform or so sensitive that they cannot take advice on improvement? Tanks and healers can handle this without issue -- It's very obvious if they don't do their job right.
I have to respectfully disagree. Of course, when healer or tank don't do their job then people die. But dead people in a group don't mean it's tank's/healer's fault in reverse. When things go wrong, people tend to oversimplify things - and are fast to jump to conclusions. I don't say that tanks or healer are without fault, no they mess things up just like everybody else. There is nothing about tanks or healer which make them automatically the better player or the one who is always right.
For me, a combat tracker (which is in fact much more than a common dps meter) is a mean of protecting the innocent. There is more to fight mechanics than people dead= if healer has full mana= healer's fault or any other overly simplicistic approaches. A combat tracker is a tool to analyse a fight - player to player comparison is just a by-product of a combat tracker.
I love DPS meters. Using them has made me a better player in most games I have played. You can see where your going wrong and learn to improve. the only time they are bad things is when they are used by bad people for bad means. I take it from most of the posts there won't be to many bad people in the game, or if there is we won't be in their guilds or raiding with them. World of logs is an awesome tool.
Personally very against dps meters, including the allowance of non-sanctioned tools to merely go unpunished. It creates an atmosphere in play and community I flat out do not want to see. If people are going to be jerks they may still be jerks, but that doesn't mean that making it ok to be a jerk wont result in more/worse behavior over all. A deterrent, even a partial one WILL have some effect on this just as laws do in the real world (take for example various laws that disallow theft, people still steal but you can bet it would be a lot more pominent were no such law in place). So thats a no go for me on these kinds of tools.
ONE exception for me is maybe private dps meters (As in it only tracks your own performance) with possible ability to export the results so that if one so desired they could use this data with a guild or whatever group. Even then it could still negatively impact the game environment but I think that is a mostly fair compromise on the issue.
I think that training dummies allowing people to practice and pace themselves are fine.
However, I do not like dps meters or parsing in game. Imo, these lead to callouts for groups "looking for class x, min. dps x required, min armor x reqired. Please know the dungeon".
This surely kills any game immersion.
In EQ with groups, we did not need a meter to tell us if aTank was not capible, an Encanter could not CC, or a wizard was not up to par with the spells he/she needed for their level.
The armor system helped a great deal in EQ, in that when you looked at a tank in full plate carring any number of weapons: you had a good idea of that Tanks level and skill. If wearing that armor, then chances are the Tank was skilled and would do well in your group. That was before twinking of course.
I find the dps meters and any form of 'outside' measuement of a players skill, intrusive, and unnecessary. Imo.
We have already answered this folks, we will not support API add-ons for DPS/Aggro/Heal meters.
We will support and have in-game chat logs/parsing to show combat information and people are welcome to either turn that information off in their chat or use it to enhance/better their characters, rotations, skills etc.
If someone uses that information to put you down or reject you from a group, raid or guild, then it would be best to find a new group, raid or guild with nicer more compatible players, I certainly wouldn't stick around if someone used parsing information against me, but it wouldn't turn me off that information being displayed at all, as it is very useful for guild leaders, raid leaders, groups and anyone who wants to work harder on being better at their class.
If none of this information interests you, then simply turn it off, ignore it and carry on enjoying the game and playing your way ;)
Kilsin said:We have already answered this folks, we will not support API add-ons for DPS/Aggro/Heal meters.
We will support and have in-game chat logs/parsing to show combat information and people are welcome to either turn that information off in their chat or use it to enhance/better their characters, rotations, skills etc.
If someone uses that information to put you down or reject you from a group, raid or guild, then it would be best to find a new group, raid or guild with nicer more compatible players, I certainly wouldn't stick around if someone used parsing information against me, but it wouldn't turn me off that information being displayed at all, as it is very useful for guild leaders, raid leaders, groups and anyone who wants to work harder on being better at their class.If none of this information interests you, then simply turn it off, ignore it and carry on enjoying the game and playing your way ;)
Will you support API add-ons for redoing the UI though? That's the important bit. I like the stance you all are taking on DPS/Agro/Heal meters, and agree with it, but I do like custom UIs that either clean up things I dislike from the default, or allow me to add certain features that I like in a UI.
shihiro said:Kilsin said:We have already answered this folks, we will not support API add-ons for DPS/Aggro/Heal meters.
We will support and have in-game chat logs/parsing to show combat information and people are welcome to either turn that information off in their chat or use it to enhance/better their characters, rotations, skills etc.
If someone uses that information to put you down or reject you from a group, raid or guild, then it would be best to find a new group, raid or guild with nicer more compatible players, I certainly wouldn't stick around if someone used parsing information against me, but it wouldn't turn me off that information being displayed at all, as it is very useful for guild leaders, raid leaders, groups and anyone who wants to work harder on being better at their class.If none of this information interests you, then simply turn it off, ignore it and carry on enjoying the game and playing your way ;)
Will you support API add-ons for redoing the UI though? That's the important bit. I like the stance you all are taking on DPS/Agro/Heal meters, and agree with it, but I do like custom UIs that either clean up things I dislike from the default, or allow me to add certain features that I like in a UI.
I like UI customization and options too, believe me, I used a lot in VG and would love to have them again in Pantheon, but the team has not made an official stance on this yet, we will let everyone know when we do, though, I just wanted to clear this matter up on Dps meters without going off topic ;)
Kilsin said:I like UI customization and options too, believe me, I used a lot in VG and would love to have them again in Pantheon, but the team has not made an official stance on this yet, we will let everyone know when we do, though, I just wanted to clear this matter up on Dps meters without going off topic ;)
Darn, alright! I do hope they include it though! Thanks Kilsin!
Liav said:Realistically I think DPS checks are lazy coding anyway.
Totally agree, and I think its more prevelent in modern MMO's because they have done away with CC and strict support classes. Leaving everybody as some form of DPS limits there mechanics so timed encounters and DPS checks became a thing. Some of the most fun encouters I have done is were your group is totally under powered, but the stradegy and an extented battle were able to win.
In some games I have really enjoyed DPS parsers, but generally were classes are balanced. Other games have forced you into cookie cutter builds just to compete and killed the promise of "play how you want". Non of that is the parsers fault, just bad class design, but hopefully Pantheon will have good classes and encounter mechanics that do away with the need for DPS meters in preference of rewarding critical skill usage like CC's, interupt's and stuns.
rojo said:I imagine it's probably near impossible to prevent a determined community from creating some kind of DPS benchmark, but it'd be great if meters didn't exist in Pantheon at release. I feel like a DPS meter reduces the game to a math problem and kind of takes away some of its spirit. Thoughts?
DPS may not matter as much as a well placed defensive spell, or stun, or block, etc.. (Should there be a meter for when to cast stun..?)
DPS meter means that damage per second matters, it might not in Pantheon mobs. Combat might be based on situational awareness, or when/how your attack. Rather than how much dmg you do over time.
Hieromonk said:DPS may not matter as much as a well placed defensive spell, or stun, or block, etc.. (Should there be a meter for when to cast stun..?)
DPS meter means that damage per second matters, it might not in Pantheon mobs. Combat might be based on situational awareness, or when/how your attack. Rather than how much dmg you do over time.
-A froglok ilis wizard begins casting...
-A froglok ilis wizard is dazzled by scintillating colors...
Moral of the story: lots of important things happen that don't make it on to DPS meters. Stuns matter A LOT.
Haelm said:Liav said:Realistically I think DPS checks are lazy coding anyway.
Totally agree, and I think its more prevelent in modern MMO's because they have done away with CC and strict support classes. Leaving everybody as some form of DPS limits there mechanics so timed encounters and DPS checks became a thing. Some of the most fun encouters I have done is were your group is totally under powered, but the stradegy and an extented battle were able to win.
In some games I have really enjoyed DPS parsers, but generally were classes are balanced. Other games have forced you into cookie cutter builds just to compete and killed the promise of "play how you want". Non of that is the parsers fault, just bad class design, but hopefully Pantheon will have good classes and encounter mechanics that do away with the need for DPS meters in preference of rewarding critical skill usage like CC's, interupt's and stuns.
I agree 100%. I wold very much like CC, intelligent use of skills and support classes to be more important than DPS overall as the main 'gotta have or else'. I too like the thrill of having to work at working thru a challenging dungeon.
Kilsin said:We have already answered this folks, we will not support API add-ons for DPS/Aggro/Heal meters.
We will support and have in-game chat logs/parsing to show combat information and people are welcome to either turn that information off in their chat or use it to enhance/better their characters, rotations, skills etc.
If someone uses that information to put you down or reject you from a group, raid or guild, then it would be best to find a new group, raid or guild with nicer more compatible players, I certainly wouldn't stick around if someone used parsing information against me, but it wouldn't turn me off that information being displayed at all, as it is very useful for guild leaders, raid leaders, groups and anyone who wants to work harder on being better at their class.If none of this information interests you, then simply turn it off, ignore it and carry on enjoying the game and playing your way ;)
Sorry I wasn't aware of that Kilsin. I still think that skill and knowing your character, not the battle, should be the bottom line. I am glad you're keeping the logs/parsing to in game only at least.
I would like to see that that information is visible to my character only and no one else. That allows me to work my way up to the best I can be, without setting pre-concieved notions for others as to my abilities. As has been pointed out on this thread, there are actions and spells that do not require dps that are vital to a group in some cases. As stuns.
We did not have all that in Eq as you are aware. We grouped, we made mistakes, we learned. And if you improved as you went you kept a group. If you did not, you did not.
And never did the dreaded cry 'X Gear required" or 'Know the Dungeon' resound accross the land.
With or without parsing the best players will rise to the top and will be highly in demand for groups.
You can tell when your chanter has 6 mobs mez'd and one charmed while they are still handing out buffs and melee'n the tanks mob for some extra dps.
Or that cleric that never lets you die.
What about that monk who can stream a perfect amount of mobs to your group in any situation.
So anyways bring on the parses because it don't really matter anyways.
Kiz~
I hate DPS meters in principle. But I will say that I did use them as a tank. Not to see if someone wasn't pulling their weight, but to see if I was pulling mine. If I didn't take x% of the damage in a given dungeon, I considered that a bad night for me.
I have, in the past, pondered an interesting compromise idea for meters. Given that game sites have "insert your gear and you will see a calculated DPS value you should be reaching" features, there is no reason these games (MMO's) can't actively do similar during game play. It would sort of be interesting to see a meter embedded in the game that didn't provide a numerical value, but instead gave you a "high, medium, low" rating based upon what you had on - and showed that.
Something like that would give you as a player a relative idea of how you were doing (I generally do high DPS, yeah!) - while not really overly promoting the e-peen race... there would be no #1 to race for, only a "high" rating to shoot for.