Kilsin said:
Information isn't the problem, human behaviour is and that can be managed appropriately by the masses :)
Bam, simple and to the point; Information should only inform a decision, not make the decision. Humans make the final decision, avoid the dreaded A-hole.
This is a game, and if some people want to play it strictly like a stone cold math problem then don't play with them, unless this also excites you. Find like minded people and have a good time. A friggen meter telling you some info about damage is not a big deal. Put it on a toggle , I promise you 95% of the players will use it sometime for something.
@Wolfsong
You literally said (paraphrasing) that support of "personal parsers" (as if that could even be a thing) should be allowed, and that sharing data could result in someone being "penalized". How else am I to interpret this?
I also reject your premise that a log parser is "ammunition" for people to use against each other. The burden of proof is on you to prove that.
Your post is just as much of a misrepresentation of myself and my position as much as you're claiming that I misrepresented yours.
I think the problem with DPS parsers is more a result of the content itself. When class utility is taken out of the game, it is a DPS race, and people will be excluded due to not doing enough DPS. This wasn't an issue in WoW (as much) as you could be terrible and insta-que in dungeons anonymously. In a world without instances like Pantheon, it will be much harder to remain anonymous, so people could be excluded if Pantheon was solely a DPS race.
So, as long as Pantheon is slower paced and has utility in its classes like EQ, which I believe it will, people won't be measured solely on their DPS, and I'm sure there will be classes that will be more slower paced than others that would allow a player a viable choice/alternative to a more DPS-oriented class.
Although, I do agree, if a parser did exist, I think there will be some that will use DPS as a measure to invite, but those same people would also use /inspect, or some other feature that was already available. And, I'll be the first to admit, I usually /friend those who I have had good experiences with grouping, and a lot of times, even without a parser, I could tell they were a "good" player within 10-15 minutes. I didn't befriend the ninja looter, ninja /afker, non-buffer, healer that healed himself before others, tank that didn't taunt or let others die so they could zone etc.
So, long story short, the DPS parser really doesn't matter to me as players will be measured regardless, and friends lists/perma-groups/guilds will form regardless. What's more important to me is classes and content are built with more than just a DPS race in mind.
Raidan said:Although, I do agree, if a parser did exist, I think there will be some that will use DPS as a measure to invite, but those same people would also use /inspect, or some other feature that was already available. And, I'll be the first to admit, I usually /friend those who I have had good experiences with grouping, and a lot of times, even without a parser, I could tell they were a "good" player within 10-15 minutes. I didn't befriend the ninja looter, ninja /afker, non-buffer, healer that healed himself before others, tank that didn't taunt or let others die so they could zone etc.
Yes to this.
I truly do believe it is pretty obvious, not long after combat in a group begins, who is a competend player and who is not, DPS notwithstanding. And I will ALWAYS make my friends list a representation of character first, knowledge of game mechanics, knowledge of their classes utility and function, and knowledge of zones/dungeons, with where they range on a DPS scale as my last criteria, if it's there at all.
/Agree Tralyan 100%
I really don't care one teeny tiny bit how much damage someone is doing. I understand some people do and if thats what is important to them to enjoy the game I can see why a dps meter is something they would want. Personally I just want Pantheon to feel like a virtual world and don't think a dps meter would contribute to that. Maybe its because when I first started playing we had all ages and experience levels on our guild, and all different skill levels. But everyone got along and had a good time. It never even crossed our minds to judge our performance. We just enjoyed the world, each each others company and the adventure. As long as you are a decent person and fun to group with I'm good.
So there will always be differences of opinion on this topic (as evidenced by fact that its gone on for 5 pages now) because some of us just want to relax, enjoy the experience and the adventure and others want to turn it into work. Just Kidding. People enjoy different things. And thats ok. Maybe. :)
A DPS parser doesn't influence how classes are designed. It can influence balance, but that's just about it.
This is the misconception.
A DPS parser isn't about whether or not something is a DPS race. It's about comparing your results. If there are two SKs in a guild and neither of them are tanking, but one of them is doing 25% of the DPS of the other, that is a problem that needs to be sorted. Maybe not in your guild, but in my guild, yes.
This has nothing to do with relaxing environments. If you want to play with people who don't like to play the numbers game, more power to you. Whether or not parsers exist, I'll still be playing with people who care about optimizing their gameplay, and it'll be a relatively exclusivist environment.
That's just MMOs for you.
I looked through this thread to see just how hard it is to deploy this type of feature and what are the drawbacks in the game environment? It would be another process running in the background and also something for the Devs to worry about. I know I don’t care if they are in the game but I am not a perma-raider or reliant on DPS for my gaming. With that said is it a loss to the community if they are not in the game?
Just curious to see some thoughts on that.
Ox
X
Oxillion said:I looked through this thread to see just how hard it is to deploy this type of feature and what are the drawbacks in the game environment? It would be another process running in the background and also something for the Devs to worry about. I know I don’t care if they are in the game but I am not a perma-raider or reliant on DPS for my gaming. With that said is it a loss to the community if they are not in the game?
Just curious to see some thoughts on that.
No, it just means the client writes combat feedback to a text file. The performance cost is negligible. Developers aren't the ones who make the parsers generally if they do it that way, a third party does. Even if it's an in-game API that is used to develop it, it still isn't done by the devs. Pretty much every MMO ever made has optionally allowed you to write combat feedback to a text file in real-time.
It would be a loss to the community in the sense that there are a lot of people who do like to use parsers who will be getting screwed over if the client doesn't support text export.
Liav said:Oxillion said:I looked through this thread to see just how hard it is to deploy this type of feature and what are the drawbacks in the game environment? It would be another process running in the background and also something for the Devs to worry about. I know I don’t care if they are in the game but I am not a perma-raider or reliant on DPS for my gaming. With that said is it a loss to the community if they are not in the game?
Just curious to see some thoughts on that.
No, it just means the client writes combat feedback to a text file. The performance cost is negligible. Developers aren't the ones who make the parsers generally if they do it that way, a third party does. Even if it's an in-game API that is used to develop it, it still isn't done by the devs. Pretty much every MMO ever made has optionally allowed you to write combat feedback to a text file in real-time.
It would be a loss to the community in the sense that there are a lot of people who do like to use parsers who will be getting screwed over if the client doesn't support text export.
Then it comes down to API support and access to the output. Sorry not a game developer here. I see an application and wonder how much resources is that going to consume.
Is the feedback part of the game engine itself? Sorry for the questions but I am curious.
Ox
Oxillion said:Then it comes down to API support and access to the output. Sorry not a game developer here. I see an application and wonder how much resources is that going to consume.
Is the feedback part of the game engine itself? Sorry for the questions but I am curious.
Ox
Right, but API support isn't even required. A plugin could be developed for ACT if they just enabled exporting.
I don't know exactly how it works but the information is already being written to your in-game chat window. Exporting that same text to an external text file should be pretty trivial to accomplish.
The computational power we're talking about here is extremely trivial. I don't know exactly what the numbers are but I imagine it takes less than 1% of a modern CPU's load to write a thousand lines of text to a text file in under a second, even if the lines are a hundred characters long. ACT barely takes up any CPU resources as well when I'm running it alongside a game like EQ2. There is no noticeable decrease in performance, and this program can do these calculations in close to realtime without hindrance.
10+ years ago the performance cost may have been worth considering.
Liav said:I was part of an elite raiding guild and we used parser for more then just bragging rights. We used it to test new gear new specs new AA new spells combos. We used it to advise other players what thye need to work on. We had 3 wizzies. One of the wizzies outparsed the other 2 combined. After a few raids we had our pro wizzy talk with those other 2 and help them out to become better. After a few more weeks there parses were up considablyA DPS parser doesn't influence how classes are designed. It can influence balance, but that's just about it.
This is the misconception.
A DPS parser isn't about whether or not something is a DPS race. It's about comparing your results. If there are two SKs in a guild and neither of them are tanking, but one of them is doing 25% of the DPS of the other, that is a problem that needs to be sorted. Maybe not in your guild, but in my guild, yes.
This has nothing to do with relaxing environments. If you want to play with people who don't like to play the numbers game, more power to you. Whether or not parsers exist, I'll still be playing with people who care about optimizing their gameplay, and it'll be a relatively exclusivist environment.
That's just MMOs for you.
Kalgore said:Liav said:I was part of an elite raiding guild and we used parser for more then just bragging rights. We used it to test new gear new specs new AA new spells combos. We used it to advise other players what thye need to work on. We had 3 wizzies. One of the wizzies outparsed the other 2 combined. After a few raids we had our pro wizzy talk with those other 2 and help them out to become better. After a few more weeks there parses were up considablyA DPS parser doesn't influence how classes are designed. It can influence balance, but that's just about it.
This is the misconception.
A DPS parser isn't about whether or not something is a DPS race. It's about comparing your results. If there are two SKs in a guild and neither of them are tanking, but one of them is doing 25% of the DPS of the other, that is a problem that needs to be sorted. Maybe not in your guild, but in my guild, yes.
This has nothing to do with relaxing environments. If you want to play with people who don't like to play the numbers game, more power to you. Whether or not parsers exist, I'll still be playing with people who care about optimizing their gameplay, and it'll be a relatively exclusivist environment.
That's just MMOs for you.
^ The main reason high end guilds use parsing. Parses are supposed to be about evaluating performance. Not bragging rights or trash talking. Most stuff in games today can be done with minimal effort and I honestly don't expect pantheon's group content to be any different. But when it comes to high end raiding, DPS can and does matter. I've been in and lead guilds at very high levels of play and I've learned over the years how to use parses to even break down a persons rotation to see how they compare to someone doing better DPS. Usually you can just sit down and talk to a person and have them try changing a few things and see DPS jump up. There is no downside to that. You help a person get better at the game and help the guild to down bosses.
And for those calling the pro parser people elitists ... I can assure you that any high end raider is not one of the ones that will sit there and berate someone for low DPS. There is a HUGE difference between the wanna-be's (Elitist trash talkers trying to make themselves look big and bad) and the people who are actually good. Good players just won't do it. And when you find one of those really good players, parsers are actually a blessing because you can go through their logs to find out what they are doing and possibly help yourself do better.
FierinaFuryfist said:@Liav That's you're prerogative but in ypur example i don't see one of your guild SKs out DPSing another by 4x since your guild will consist of an almost elitist crew.
Sorry, I failed to reply to this comment.
You're forgetting about applicants. An applicant being evaluated who is doing 25% of the dps of a member of the same class will be talked to about that.
Enitzu said:Kalgore said:Liav said:I was part of an elite raiding guild and we used parser for more then just bragging rights. We used it to test new gear new specs new AA new spells combos. We used it to advise other players what thye need to work on. We had 3 wizzies. One of the wizzies outparsed the other 2 combined. After a few raids we had our pro wizzy talk with those other 2 and help them out to become better. After a few more weeks there parses were up considablyA DPS parser doesn't influence how classes are designed. It can influence balance, but that's just about it.
This is the misconception.
A DPS parser isn't about whether or not something is a DPS race. It's about comparing your results. If there are two SKs in a guild and neither of them are tanking, but one of them is doing 25% of the DPS of the other, that is a problem that needs to be sorted. Maybe not in your guild, but in my guild, yes.
This has nothing to do with relaxing environments. If you want to play with people who don't like to play the numbers game, more power to you. Whether or not parsers exist, I'll still be playing with people who care about optimizing their gameplay, and it'll be a relatively exclusivist environment.
That's just MMOs for you.
^ The main reason high end guilds use parsing. Parses are supposed to be about evaluating performance. Not bragging rights or trash talking. Most stuff in games today can be done with minimal effort and I honestly don't expect pantheon's group content to be any different. But when it comes to high end raiding, DPS can and does matter. I've been in and lead guilds at very high levels of play and I've learned over the years how to use parses to even break down a persons rotation to see how they compare to someone doing better DPS. Usually you can just sit down and talk to a person and have them try changing a few things and see DPS jump up. There is no downside to that. You help a person get better at the game and help the guild to down bosses.
And for those calling the pro parser people elitists ... I can assure you that any high end raider is not one of the ones that will sit there and berate someone for low DPS. There is a HUGE difference between the wanna-be's (Elitist trash talkers trying to make themselves look big and bad) and the people who are actually good. Good players just won't do it. And when you find one of those really good players, parsers are actually a blessing because you can go through their logs to find out what they are doing and possibly help yourself do better.
Exactly. it is a tool used by people that play well to play better as well as help others play better
Liav said:Oxillion said:Then it comes down to API support and access to the output. Sorry not a game developer here. I see an application and wonder how much resources is that going to consume.
Is the feedback part of the game engine itself? Sorry for the questions but I am curious.
Ox
Right, but API support isn't even required. A plugin could be developed for ACT if they just enabled exporting.
I don't know exactly how it works but the information is already being written to your in-game chat window. Exporting that same text to an external text file should be pretty trivial to accomplish.
The computational power we're talking about here is extremely trivial. I don't know exactly what the numbers are but I imagine it takes less than 1% of a modern CPU's load to write a thousand lines of text to a text file in under a second, even if the lines are a hundred characters long. ACT barely takes up any CPU resources as well when I'm running it alongside a game like EQ2. There is no noticeable decrease in performance, and this program can do these calculations in close to realtime without hindrance.
10+ years ago the performance cost may have been worth considering.
Ah, understood! Thanks for the feedback Liav.
I can see the pro's of something like this for sure. I guess if enabled to do this those that want to use it can and those that don't can ignore it.
Ox
Enitzu said:Kalgore said:Liav said:I was part of an elite raiding guild and we used parser for more then just bragging rights. We used it to test new gear new specs new AA new spells combos. We used it to advise other players what thye need to work on. We had 3 wizzies. One of the wizzies outparsed the other 2 combined. After a few raids we had our pro wizzy talk with those other 2 and help them out to become better. After a few more weeks there parses were up considablyA DPS parser doesn't influence how classes are designed. It can influence balance, but that's just about it.
This is the misconception.
A DPS parser isn't about whether or not something is a DPS race. It's about comparing your results. If there are two SKs in a guild and neither of them are tanking, but one of them is doing 25% of the DPS of the other, that is a problem that needs to be sorted. Maybe not in your guild, but in my guild, yes.
This has nothing to do with relaxing environments. If you want to play with people who don't like to play the numbers game, more power to you. Whether or not parsers exist, I'll still be playing with people who care about optimizing their gameplay, and it'll be a relatively exclusivist environment.
That's just MMOs for you.
^ The main reason high end guilds use parsing. Parses are supposed to be about evaluating performance. Not bragging rights or trash talking. Most stuff in games today can be done with minimal effort and I honestly don't expect pantheon's group content to be any different. But when it comes to high end raiding, DPS can and does matter. I've been in and lead guilds at very high levels of play and I've learned over the years how to use parses to even break down a persons rotation to see how they compare to someone doing better DPS. Usually you can just sit down and talk to a person and have them try changing a few things and see DPS jump up. There is no downside to that. You help a person get better at the game and help the guild to down bosses.
And for those calling the pro parser people elitists ... I can assure you that any high end raider is not one of the ones that will sit there and berate someone for low DPS. There is a HUGE difference between the wanna-be's (Elitist trash talkers trying to make themselves look big and bad) and the people who are actually good. Good players just won't do it. And when you find one of those really good players, parsers are actually a blessing because you can go through their logs to find out what they are doing and possibly help yourself do better.
this is exactly what happened in my guild when i played EQ. we parsed mainly for fun, who cared if someone got higher dps than another so long as we beat the event/fight. i myself gave other rogues advice if they wanted on what to do to get better dps IF they wanted. the moment someone came in with an Elitist attitude, it would create drama within the guild and that person wouldnt stay long because we didnt like that elitist attitude in the guild. sure we did high end raiding, but we had fun doing it. the parses were just something fun for us to talk about at the end of a raiding day. especially between the pure dps classes.
Furty said:
this is exactly what happened in my guild when i played EQ. we parsed mainly for fun, who cared if someone got higher dps than another so long as we beat the event/fight. i myself gave other rogues advice if they wanted on what to do to get better dps IF they wanted. the moment someone came in with an Elitist attitude, it would create drama within the guild and that person wouldnt stay long because we didnt like that elitist attitude in the guild. sure we did high end raiding, but we had fun doing it. the parses were just something fun for us to talk about at the end of a raiding day. especially between the pure dps classes.
I played a necro as my main in EQ. I was in a mediocre raiding guild, mostly RL friends. We weren't crazy intense or anything but we did try to compete, and we sure as hell tried to push ourselves to conquer the next goal.
As I said, I was a necro. Especially in the Kunark/Luclin era necro's were considered sub-par at best for raiding, and worthless for almost anything but the CRs. But with the help of log parsers I was able to demonstrate to the guild, and more importantly to my fellow dejected guild necros, that we were able to find rotations that put us in the top 3-5 DPS participants in the raid. Parsing helped us prove to others that we didnt have to give up our spot in a raid for the good of the guild. It helped people who wouldnt have otherwise tried to fight for that slot and know that they had the potential to shine in it rather than being expected to just go solo, because that's all necros are good for. Slowly but surely as more of our necros became more confident, and utilzed the logs more regularly, we were able to push that inaccurate stereotype of the raid necro being less worthwhile than other classes. We werent flashy, but we were effective. We just didnt have a mechanism to prove it without the parses.
DPS meter is NOT a tool, it is a visual aid to help those who do not understand the complex equations and formulas of the underlying dice rolls that YOUR CHARACTER is using. Most people who seek dps meters do so because they want arcade style gameplay... instead of knowing their character's capabilities and role. If you want to do ultimate DAMAGE, then be a Wizard.
Again, many who want dps meters, are because they do not want to play a role in Terminus, they just want arcade action & head free entertainment.
Nobody needs DPS meters, they just want them, for ease...
I didn't need a dps meter in eq. I had binders of printout of what the dmg of each weapon was, for my character. And had the formulas worked out. Later on... there where online DPS calculators. It all comes down to how well you prepair your character and perfect your role. Not how much damage one can do... in real time.
Coincidentally, a single landing of a Shaman's SLOW spell, may be more important than any amount of DPS someone is doing. What the DPS meter represent to you, is that HP are all what a MOB is.. and you do not see the value in a well placed spell, or other metrics/actions in combat are as important as DPS. What about heal meters for all the Clerics and healers, to see how much HP per sec they are healing..? Without them, there is no sustained DPS...
Having a DPS meter is a step backwards in a true MMORPG environment and adding it, implies a children's game. A help meter... so you can stay on track and be a good player..? Knowing, and perfecting your role on-the-fly is ROLE PLAYING.
If everyone has a DPS meter, then how would the educated, or vigiliant, or good players... distance themselves from the noobs and bad players..?
Hieromonk said:DPS meter is NOT a tool, it is a visual aid to help those who do not understand the complex equations and formulas of the underlying dice rolls that YOUR CHARACTER is using. Most people who seek dps meters do so because they want arcade style gameplay... instead of knowing their character's capabilities and role. If you want to do ultimate DAMAGE, then be a Wizard.
Again, many who want dps meters, are because they do not want to play a role in Terminus, they just want arcade action & head free entertainment.
Nobody needs DPS meters, they just want them, for ease...
I didn't need a dps meter in eq. I had binders of printout of what the dmg of each weapon was, for my character. And had the formulas worked out. Later on... there where online DPS calculators. It all comes down to how well you prepair your character and perfect your role. Not how much damage one can do... in real time.
Coincidentally, a single landing of a Shaman's SLOW spell, may be more important than any amount of DPS someone is doing. What the DPS meter represent to you, is that HP are all what a MOB is.. and you do not see the value in a well placed spell, or other metrics/actions in combat are as important as DPS. What about heal meters for all the Clerics and healers, to see how much HP per sec they are healing..? Without them, there is no sustained DPS...
Having a DPS meter is a step backwards in a true MMORPG environment and adding it, implies a children's game. A help meter... so you can stay on track and be a good player..? Knowing, and perfecting your role on-the-fly is ROLE PLAYING.
If everyone has a DPS meter, then how would the educated, or vigiliant, or good players... distance themselves from the noobs and bad players..?
This is just not true.
First, a dps meter is a tool. Saying its not is just redefining the word.
Second, being able to measure or review data does not mean you don't understand what is going on. Thats just crazy. On the contrary, I'd argue that those who take the time to analyze it probably understand it even better.
Lastly, while I can respect that externally analyzing what is going on in the game is taking players out of it and thus, unimmersive, that does not mean those people do not want to play a role or "get immersed" in the game. As a developer, you may not want to encourage this, but its going to happen. People who are immersed will still tab out of the game at times. Just because people take bathroom breaks instead of wetting themselves doesn't mean they don't want to feel immersed in the game world.
I'm a real proponent of log parsing to understand what happened in a fight; who was watching kitten videos on facebook instead of fighting, who really stepped up and brought their game to a new level, etc. I am not a proponent of DPS meters per se, but I think your characterisation may be a bit over the top, Hiermonk.
There's legitimate use for a DPS meter. Specificially for people who don't have any idea if they are effectively playing their class, or know they arent but dont know how to get better. They can try new things, try new spell rotations, try different gear layouts, and evaluate in real time what kind of effect it has on their primary group or raid function. Arguably the only use for a DPS meter is to see how high you can make it go. This is precisely the opposite outcome you describe, in the person who is just in it for the arcade-style game, mindlessly mashing buttons without concern for effectiveness or impact to their team.
If a person's class role in Pantheon is to do damage, what is the downside of providing a mechanism that informs them if they are filling their role well?
[edit]
I just re-read your post Hiermonk, and your stance appears to be "If I spend a bunch of time outside the game doing a bunch of stuff that a lot of people find to be elitist min/max overthinking and deconstructing of what should be an entertaining and spontaneous experience, I should be better than people who dont."
Yeah, to quote Dullahan from another thread, "Hard pass.".
Hieromonk said:DPS meter is NOT a tool, it is a visual aid to help those who do not understand the complex equations and formulas of the underlying dice rolls that YOUR CHARACTER is using.
I ignored the rest of your post because this was the only part that mattered.
You're incorrect. This is like saying a calculator isn't a tool because it's a visual aid for people who can't crunch 16 digit long numbers in their heads in a reasonable time frame. While that is a semi-accurate representation of a calculator, it doesn't make it any less of a tool. You're just distilling a massive amount of information into a more human readable format.
I think every nuance, nook, cranny, possible outcome, pro, con, effect on humanity, cause for rejection or acceptance of the DPS meter has now been written into this post. We should have a mini game where you are in total darkness with no sound and a huge DPS meter covering the screen. The person that does the most damage in 10 mins. gets a trophy, a ribbon, and bragging rights for a day. If you win twice in a row you can be a dick to all the losers and your character will march around doing the superior dance like the Church Lady on SNL.
Put in a meter, make it so it can be turned off. Whoopdy dooooo.
Skycaster said:I think every nuance, nook, cranny, possible outcome, pro, con, effect on humanity, cause for rejection or acceptance of the DPS meter has now been written into this post. We should have a mini game where you are in total darkness with no sound and a huge DPS meter covering the screen. The person that does the most damage in 10 mins. gets a trophy, a ribbon, and bragging rights for a day. If you win twice in a row you can be a dick to all the losers and your character will march around doing the superior dance like the Church Lady on SNL.
This is exactly how I use my log parser. How did you know?
Skycaster said:Put in a meter, make it so it can be turned off. Whoopdy dooooo.
Or don't put a meter in (I prefer open source), and add real-time combat logging, as has been done for a decade or longer in MMOs. There's no need for the developers to waste their time developing one when parsing engines already exist.
Liav said:Skycaster said:I think every nuance, nook, cranny, possible outcome, pro, con, effect on humanity, cause for rejection or acceptance of the DPS meter has now been written into this post. We should have a mini game where you are in total darkness with no sound and a huge DPS meter covering the screen. The person that does the most damage in 10 mins. gets a trophy, a ribbon, and bragging rights for a day. If you win twice in a row you can be a dick to all the losers and your character will march around doing the superior dance like the Church Lady on SNL.
This is exactly how I use my log parser. How did you know?
I knew it ! LMAO
I always keep some dancing room around my desk for just such occasions.