EppE said:My question would be... is there glamor or transmog? Can I change the appearance of my items? I personally hope not.
I want armor to look like armor. Not that I care if its protecting or covering, but I want some consistency. I want to know "that's a paladin" by looking at them. I want to know "that's a high level well geared paladin" by looking at them. I don't personally care one way or the other how much skin is shown, as long as it's unqiue and specific to each class and race.
With the power of illusion magic I don't see why this can't be a thing. What's wrong with the warrior asking the caster to cast a minor illision spell on him to change the appearance of his armor. In a magic world anything should be possible. THat's not even getting into using magic to help mold and shape armors so they aren't limited to what a hammer and heat can do.
bigdogchris said:Bakumba said:I like reading threads till i come across people like this always throwing PC into everything... shut up its just a game. Maybe make a stick figure mod for people like you thinking your way is always better or right. I think your comment has the word boob in it more than the whole section and you call others sexest.
Nothing to do with PC and all to do with unrealistic boob armor man. Nor did I call anyone sexist, I called the boob armor sexist. Look at the above cartoon -says it all. I want realistic armor for everyone, period. This includes fake, over-the-top huge shoulder pad and other obviously unwieldy and unrealistic armor you find in WoW and other games. Boob armor issue is one part of a larger problem with cartoon graphics in games, which I do not like.
But I want to thank you for your feedback.
"Realistic" armor does not hold up in a fantasy game and people only want "realistic" armor when it comes to female characters. Nobody cared about the half named monk and shaman males. Your realistic armor would not stand up to attacks from even the most basic animals like a bear let alone monster and mythical creatures like a troll or a Dragon. One swipe from a 20 ton dragon will slice you in two no matter what realistic armor your wearing. Why is this always the only realistic thing people want in mmos?, only realistic female armor? which never existed so there is no saying what realistic female armor is. With technoology today you can make some extremely feminie looking armor and just be as effective as masculine armor. THey didn't have female armors in the past for us to base anything on. It's a fasntasy setting which is supposed to be escapism.
Look everybody that wants conservative realistic armor is already going to get it. It's not going to disappear if they had sexier styles of armor too. It's seflish to only want the style of your choice.
Sunglare said:EppE said:My question would be... is there glamor or transmog? Can I change the appearance of my items? I personally hope not.
I want armor to look like armor. Not that I care if its protecting or covering, but I want some consistency. I want to know "that's a paladin" by looking at them. I want to know "that's a high level well geared paladin" by looking at them. I don't personally care one way or the other how much skin is shown, as long as it's unqiue and specific to each class and race.
With the power of illusion magic I don't see why this can't be a thing. What's wrong with the warrior asking the caster to cast a minor illision spell on him to change the appearance of his armor. In a magic world anything should be possible. THat's not even getting into using magic to help mold and shape armors so they aren't limited to what a hammer and heat can do.
Yeah I wasn't looking for a lore explanation here, we could chock "it's magic" up to just about anything. What I'm saying is I dislike that items lose their worth because of transmog. Being able to stand in EC tunnel with a super rare robe on meant something. It also meant that people couldn't make all of their gear invisible and run around naked. The gear you wore was the gear you had. You could assess someone's gear by looking at them, in most cases. Transmog/glamour, whatever you want to call it, devalues loot by taking away the unique appearance aspect of it.
Sunglare said:Tanix said:bigdogchris said:Bakumba said:I like reading threads till i come across people like this always throwing PC into everything... shut up its just a game. Maybe make a stick figure mod for people like you thinking your way is always better or right. I think your comment has the word boob in it more than the whole section and you call others sexest.
Nothing to do with PC and all to do with unrealistic boob armor man. Nor did I call anyone sexist, I called the boob armor sexist. Look at the above cartoon -says it all. I want realistic armor for everyone, period. This includes fake, over-the-top huge shoulder pad and other obviously unwieldy and unrealistic armor you find in WoW and other games. Boob armor issue is one part of a larger problem with cartoon graphics in games, which I do not like.
But I want to thank you for your feedback.
This is an interesting video on the concept of armor and how even male armor was not designed entirely to physical reality. It isn't my statement of opinion, but it is interesting none the less on various aspects of this argument:
LOL I was just about to share this! I still need to watch his barbarian armor video.
His Barbarian Armor video could be somewhat relevant to this conversation.
thing is barbarians didnt wear armor and if barbarian armor were a thing it would be a total of 2 ac because its practically nothing which if this were an option fine bring out the boob armor and have 2 ac but dont complain when you get folded in a split second, personally i dont mind if a skilled armorer made armor to give the ladies girls some room as im not a fan smashed breasts IRL, much like i prefer my underoos to have the sewn extrude part for my man parts it creates comfort and enables me to perform life better, you get more done when youre comfy, but if i see a level 100 tank wearing underwear ill be dissapointed.
Tanix said:Watemper said:@Tanix
Lol I was half joking, but since armor back then really did have a schlong part in the armor...and people are talking about realism here..I mean..I am cool with it. lol.
You saw that part right? I thought it funny, and it is understandable to an extent to have a king that has a HUGE bludge in his crotch fighting on the field. It is hysterical and I guess intimiatdating to some.
I mean "OMG here comes the king and he is larger than life in EVERYTHING!!!!" It was pyschological warfare I guess.
LOL, so we would have Bash, Slam, Kick or now the new taunting mechanism with a crotch in targets face... (Boink).
Sunglare said:"Realistic" armor does not hold up in a fantasy game and people only want "realistic" armor when it comes to female characters. Nobody cared about the half named monk and shaman males. Your realistic armor would not stand up to attacks from even the most basic animals like a bear let alone monster and mythical creatures like a troll or a Dragon. One swipe from a 20 ton dragon will slice you in two no matter what realistic armor your wearing. Why is this always the only realistic thing people want in mmos?, only realistic female armor? which never existed so there is no saying what realistic female armor is. With technoology today you can make some extremely feminie looking armor and just be as effective as masculine armor. THey didn't have female armors in the past for us to base anything on. It's a fasntasy setting which is supposed to be escapism.
Look everybody that wants conservative realistic armor is already going to get it. It's not going to disappear if they had sexier styles of armor too. It's seflish to only want the style of your choice.
Looking for realistic for the armor types, not in choice of wear. If the game has rare oddities here and there with low cut or "sexier" cloth or leather armors I don't think there would be much issue, but chain and plate should be about protection. Realistic female armor did exist...it was the same look and design as that of men (Joan of Arc). You would never want protruding breast molds on your plate unless you had a deathwish.
I really feel like there's a middle ground here that could mostly satisfy everyone.
I want Pantheon to have a diverse and inclusive user base and that applies both in terms of age as well as gender. Regardless of male or female, people like their characters to look nice and attractive. So, I think it's important that both male and female characters can do so.
At the same time, I understand and support the idea that armor and clothing should look somewhat realistic. We've all seen so many games where the protection that a piece of armor provided was inversely proportional to the amount of skin it covered (or, directly proportional to the size of the shoulderpads). At some point, things just got silly, so I'd like to see Pantheon pull that back a bit.
I think it is entirely possible for armor and clothing to approach a level of "fantasy realism" and for our characters to still look good while wearing it. Hopefully the artists and animators that VR has been hiring recently will help make that a reality :)
Iksar said:Sunglare said:"Realistic" armor does not hold up in a fantasy game and people only want "realistic" armor when it comes to female characters. Nobody cared about the half named monk and shaman males. Your realistic armor would not stand up to attacks from even the most basic animals like a bear let alone monster and mythical creatures like a troll or a Dragon. One swipe from a 20 ton dragon will slice you in two no matter what realistic armor your wearing. Why is this always the only realistic thing people want in mmos?, only realistic female armor? which never existed so there is no saying what realistic female armor is. With technoology today you can make some extremely feminie looking armor and just be as effective as masculine armor. THey didn't have female armors in the past for us to base anything on. It's a fasntasy setting which is supposed to be escapism.
Look everybody that wants conservative realistic armor is already going to get it. It's not going to disappear if they had sexier styles of armor too. It's seflish to only want the style of your choice.
Looking for realistic for the armor types, not in choice of wear. If the game has rare oddities here and there with low cut or "sexier" cloth or leather armors I don't think there would be much issue, but chain and plate should be about protection. Realistic female armor did exist...it was the same look and design as that of men (Joan of Arc). You would never want protruding breast molds on your plate unless you had a deathwish.
That is inaccurate about Joan of Arc, she wore a man armor. Armors weren't made for woman on our Earth. I highly suggest you watch the video by Shadversity about armors. Armors were designed for men and alot had to do with aesthetics not practicality. Different cultures had different & weird aesthetics to their armors.
also if joan of Arc would have had some female armor instead of a guys armor she would have avoided getting burned at the stake.
THere is still no basis for "realistic" armor in a fantasy setting. if if a girl has a breatplate that leaves a lot of cleavage exposed there is nothing to say magic isn't protecting that spot. Some low rank thug thinks he sees an opening and aims for her chect but the magic or the armor deflects it away. HAve you ever heard of Bracers or Armor? Just as good as Full plate.
There is only one valid argument to be made against revealing armor and that is "I don't like it and women should be covered" because lets face it nobody cares if guys are fully exposed.
Nephele said:I really feel like there's a middle ground here that could mostly satisfy everyone.
I want Pantheon to have a diverse and inclusive user base and that applies both in terms of age as well as gender. Regardless of male or female, people like their characters to look nice and attractive. So, I think it's important that both male and female characters can do so.
At the same time, I understand and support the idea that armor and clothing should look somewhat realistic. We've all seen so many games where the protection that a piece of armor provided was inversely proportional to the amount of skin it covered (or, directly proportional to the size of the shoulderpads). At some point, things just got silly, so I'd like to see Pantheon pull that back a bit.
I think it is entirely possible for armor and clothing to approach a level of "fantasy realism" and for our characters to still look good while wearing it. Hopefully the artists and animators that VR has been hiring recently will help make that a reality :)
I think the middle ground might be having revealing or "sexy" armors only as cosmetic or less than ideal stat wise so they are only used as "glamour" armor by those who want to play dress up in "fan service" outfits. Then those on the other side of the fence can keep cosmetic armor toggled off to only see others in the gear they are actually wearing.
Sunglare said:Iksar said:Looking for realistic for the armor types, not in choice of wear. If the game has rare oddities here and there with low cut or "sexier" cloth or leather armors I don't think there would be much issue, but chain and plate should be about protection. Realistic female armor did exist...it was the same look and design as that of men (Joan of Arc). You would never want protruding breast molds on your plate unless you had a deathwish.
That is inaccurate about Joan of Arc, she wore a man armor. Armors weren't made for woman on our Earth. I highly suggest you watch the video by Shadversity about armors. Armors were designed for men and alot had to do with aesthetics not practicality. Different cultures had different & weird aesthetics to their armors.
also if joan of Arc would have had some female armor instead of a guys armor she would have avoided getting burned at the stake.
THere is still no basis for "realistic" armor in a fantasy setting. if if a girl has a breatplate that leaves a lot of cleavage exposed there is nothing to say magic isn't protecting that spot. Some low rank thug thinks he sees an opening and aims for her chect but the magic or the armor deflects it away. HAve you ever heard of Bracers or Armor? Just as good as Full plate.
There is only one valid argument to be made against revealing armor and that is "I don't like it and women should be covered" because lets face it nobody cares if guys are fully exposed.
I don't think you've read his answer before actually quoting and answering to him . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vI5tdORhC0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yh35uWLBQ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obAd0zAFMTI
i'll just leave this here again XD
People are already getting their "realistic" armor, this is established.
People are just asking for options. THere is no valid argument to be had to not have other options besides "realistic" armor. A previous thread that was 9 pages long had women asking for armor that was more feminie and sexy and people who are already getting the armor they prefer spent those 9 pages trying to shut them down.
The devs said they are interested in building a world, worlds have different cultures and each culture should have their own ideas of what is and is isn't proper. it makes no sense that every culture has these ultra conservative armors especially in a world of magic. The Dark Myr being an underwater race have no reason to be wearing fullplate. They would make up for what they can't wear with magic. Also with this world building the devs should want to make acesthetics that apeal to as many people as possible. Lots of people don't like realistic armors in fantasy games, it's unappealing. THey would be stuck playing the game having zero interest in what they are wearing expect for the stats. it is a slow grind game and people will be stuck with the armors they are wearing for a long time, it should have something they enjoy looking at.
They already said they are not doing a glamour system so it will have to fall on actual armor designs, it is nothing magic can't solve. Just make the armors fit the setting.
Some of the best AC's you can get in D20 is naked/zero armor characters.
Sunglare said:People are already getting their "realistic" armor, this is established.
People are just asking for options. THere is no valid argument to be had to not have other options besides "realistic" armor. A previous thread that was 9 pages long had women asking for armor that was more feminie and sexy and people who are already getting the armor they prefer spent those 9 pages trying to shut them down.
The devs said they are interested in building a world, worlds have different cultures and each culture should have their own ideas of what is and is isn't proper. it makes no sense that every culture has these ultra conservative armors especially in a world of magic. The Dark Myr being an underwater race have no reason to be wearing fullplate. They would make up for what they can't wear with magic. Also with this world building the devs should want to make acesthetics that apeal to as many people as possible. Lots of people don't like realistic armors in fantasy games, it's unappealing. THey would be stuck playing the game having zero interest in what they are wearing expect for the stats. it is a slow grind game and people will be stuck with the armors they are wearing for a long time, it should have something they enjoy looking at.
They already said they are not doing a glamour system so it will have to fall on actual armor designs, it is nothing magic can't solve. Just make the armors fit the setting.
Some of the best AC's you can get in D20 is naked/zero armor characters.
you could just have both styles in the game so people can have a choice then everyone can be happy. for example plate armor that has high aglity value can be a bit more revealing. dodge and crit usually associated the stat. so soemthing with high hp value and armor can be more concealed. so just make it reflect the stats i think is what im saying?
stellarmind said:
you could just have both styles in the game so people can have a choice then everyone can be happy. for example plate armor that has high aglity value can be a bit more revealing. dodge and crit usually associated the stat. so soemthing with high hp value and armor can be more concealed. so just make it reflect the stats i think is what im saying?
I'd even add : Don't make Armor like it is in wow: a baseline stat scaling with gear in a linear fashion. Make armor something variable from piece to piece, and include it in the overall budget of an item. Then you can make lower AC armor with more primary/secondary stats that could be cleaved of some sort. Not everyone will be a tank anyway.
Sunglare said:The devs said they are interested in building a world, worlds have different cultures and each culture should have their own ideas of what is and is isn't proper. it makes no sense that every culture has these ultra conservative armors especially in a world of magic. The Dark Myr being an underwater race have no reason to be wearing fullplate. They would make up for what they can't wear with magic. Also with this world building the devs should want to make acesthetics that apeal to as many people as possible. Lots of people don't like realistic armors in fantasy games, it's unappealing. THey would be stuck playing the game having zero interest in what they are wearing expect for the stats. it is a slow grind game and people will be stuck with the armors they are wearing for a long time, it should have something they enjoy looking at.
They already said they are not doing a glamour system so it will have to fall on actual armor designs, it is nothing magic can't solve. Just make the armors fit the setting.
Some of the best AC's you can get in D20 is naked/zero armor characters.
Sure but in building a world some things would reason to be consistent, it isn't about being "ultra conservative" so much as being protected. Try putting yourself in the shoes of a warrior of any given race that knows they are about to journey into a warcamp of orcs or other beasts/monsters and ask yourself if you think anyone be saying "Man, I really wish this armor showed off my hot bod."
And yes they could just throw out plate bikinis and explain it away with "magic" but that's extremely lazy and almost (if not) always horribly inconsistent within any given world, leading to endless "why not this then?"
I'm not arguing that those things shouldn't exist at all, but rather they be pretty limited and largely relegated to cosmetic (no stats/low ac) wear.
Anyway, unless something has changed then that is false. The most current plan is/was to allow glamour/cosmetic armor separate from adventuring gear but that there would be a toggle for players to choose whether they see other players in either cosmetic or adventuring gear.
(Also, Dark Myr are not an underwater race and haven't been for some time now in the lore)
"FashionQuest"
- A term I personally define as pertaining to applying the play of "dress up" (that crosses genders) to so-called "paper dolls" that are avatars in computer games particularly in RPG's and some MMO's.
The appeal of the concept of "dress up" as play is validated in games like Fallout with its immensely (some say too much) customization of avatar looks, WoW with its epic armors, even VR nods to this idea when they speak of having weapons or armors that are unique and identifiably special (Paraphrased something from Brad on this), as well as EQ with its armor that looked different on different races and dropped armor having unique look (Drelzna's robe, for instance from Najena) from which "FashionQuest" was coined plus the particular weaponry that is so appealing to both genders.
FashionQuest is real.
In other forums people have posted about formalwear- purely cosmetic and just for fun for "in town" as opposed to battle or adventuring wear which should be appropriate (like Jean D'arc). So in response to the OP I say the plea is not "make females georgeous!" but rather "can females(or males) be georgeous?" For in the sandbox player driven effort to try, is the play called dress up (fashionquest)
Tl,Dr
"I've...I've never seen... I mean... that's a dwarf? you know fellas, she really looks good with that beard!... nah nah I'm serious!!"
Iksar said:Sunglare said:The devs said they are interested in building a world, worlds have different cultures and each culture should have their own ideas of what is and is isn't proper. it makes no sense that every culture has these ultra conservative armors especially in a world of magic. The Dark Myr being an underwater race have no reason to be wearing fullplate. They would make up for what they can't wear with magic. Also with this world building the devs should want to make acesthetics that apeal to as many people as possible. Lots of people don't like realistic armors in fantasy games, it's unappealing. THey would be stuck playing the game having zero interest in what they are wearing expect for the stats. it is a slow grind game and people will be stuck with the armors they are wearing for a long time, it should have something they enjoy looking at.
They already said they are not doing a glamour system so it will have to fall on actual armor designs, it is nothing magic can't solve. Just make the armors fit the setting.
Some of the best AC's you can get in D20 is naked/zero armor characters.
Sure but in building a world some things would reason to be consistent, it isn't about being "ultra conservative" so much as being protected. Try putting yourself in the shoes of a warrior of any given race that knows they are about to journey into a warcamp of orcs or other beasts/monsters and ask yourself if you think anyone be saying "Man, I really wish this armor showed off my hot bod."
And yes they could just throw out plate bikinis and explain it away with "magic" but that's extremely lazy and almost (if not) always horribly inconsistent within any given world, leading to endless "why not this then?"
I'm not arguing that those things shouldn't exist at all, but rather they be pretty limited and largely relegated to cosmetic (no stats/low ac) wear.
Anyway, unless something has changed then that is false. The most current plan is/was to allow glamour/cosmetic armor separate from adventuring gear but that there would be a toggle for players to choose whether they see other players in either cosmetic or adventuring gear.
(Also, Dark Myr are not an underwater race and haven't been for some time now in the lore)
No I've already explained this. THere is no justification that a fantasy world has to adhere to our mideval style of armor. Explaining away armor with magic is no more lazy then just slapping fullplate on a character and explaining that is possibly the only way to get the best armor. THat's lazy and no creativity. Take Monks from EQ2, they were tanks. They tanked by dodging and blocking and you even had monks in EQ1 tanking the same way. Adventuring gear should also be stylish, people should not have to resort to a appearance toggle to look cool while adventuring. Also tanks aren't the only role in the game. You have support and DPS too so now there really isn't any justification for "Realistic" armor.
Stop trying to apply real world situations to a fantasy setting. Yes fantasy adventure characters want to show off their bod, they are the pinicale of greatness. They are the heroes of the story. They are above and beyond your average NPC. What adventure would say "I'm just going to take a dip in the lake wearing this hunk of metal, or I'm going to go face this massive dragon wwearing this useless tin can" All these things can only be explained away because it's a fantasy setting and physics do not apply. People have this nasty hang up about female armor having to be realistic. MEanwhile they have screenshots and streams of monks and shamans wearing no tops and nobody has anybody complaints about that but when it comes to female characters "We need to stick them in the most boring looking armor and make sure they are covered head to toe." Leave current day Earth politics out of fantasy games.
Manouk said:"FashionQuest"
- A term I personally define as pertaining to applying the play of "dress up" (that crosses genders) to so-called "paper dolls" that are avatars in computer games particularly in RPG's and some MMO's.
The appeal of the concept of "dress up" as play is validated in games like Fallout with its immensely (some say too much) customization of avatar looks, WoW with its epic armors, even VR nods to this idea when they speak of having weapons or armors that are unique and identifiably special (Paraphrased something from Brad on this), as well as EQ with its armor that looked different on different races and dropped armor having unique look (Drelzna's robe, for instance from Najena) from which "FashionQuest" was coined plus the particular weaponry that is so appealing to both genders.
FashionQuest is real.
In other forums people have posted about formalwear- purely cosmetic and just for fun for "in town" as opposed to battle or adventuring wear which should be appropriate (like Jean D'arc). So in response to the OP I say the plea is not "make females georgeous!" but rather "can females(or males) be georgeous?" For in the sandbox player driven effort to try, is the play called dress up (fashionquest)
Tl,Dr
"I've...I've never seen... I mean... that's a dwarf? you know fellas, she really looks good with that beard!... nah nah I'm serious!!"
THrouout all these threads aboutt his topic Najena Robe kept popping up in my head.
Iksar said:(Also, Dark Myr are not an underwater race and haven't been for some time now in the lore)
Not to derail the thread but in the race section it states:
"They have subdued their realm of the ocean and built a glorious city in honor of Syronai."
That sounds like they built a city in the ocean to me, is there another section I am missing about them not being an underwater race?
Walpurgis said:Iksar said:(Also, Dark Myr are not an underwater race and haven't been for some time now in the lore)
Not to derail the thread but in the race section it states:
"They have subdued their realm of the ocean and built a glorious city in honor of Syronai."
That sounds like they built a city in the ocean to me, is there another section I am missing about them not being an underwater race?
That's a part we will have to wait for further information...
Some argue they have two forms (as shown on the website) other that they lost it (phrasing and interpretation) but nothing has been confirmed.
It's my biggest fear about myrs if this race end up beeing only elves with a few oceanic features and not as impressive as I hoped they would be.
MauvaisOeil said:Walpurgis said:Iksar said:(Also, Dark Myr are not an underwater race and haven't been for some time now in the lore)
Not to derail the thread but in the race section it states:
"They have subdued their realm of the ocean and built a glorious city in honor of Syronai."
That sounds like they built a city in the ocean to me, is there another section I am missing about them not being an underwater race?
That's a part we will have to wait for further information...
Some argue they have two forms (as shown on the website) other that they lost it (phrasing and interpretation) but nothing has been confirmed.
It's my biggest fear about myrs if this race end up beeing only elves with a few oceanic features and not as impressive as I hoped they would be.
Ah I see, so nothing definitely confirmed as of yet. I was thinking it would be awesome to have one of the cities under water. I am with you as well, was hoping they would be something more than just aquatic elves.