Kilsin said:Dullahan said:Amsai said: Im male and depending on one of the characters I usually make I will likely have a female character. I think the boob plate argument is a bit lost on me. I just look at it as fantasy and dont mind it. Now thats not to say I want my female character to look like a street walker. I dont! She is a classy lady afterall. I am against oversexualization. But I dont think cute/sexy designs have to mean extreme skin exposure either. Just dont make everything gender neutral whatever else happens. We absolutely need male and female flavor.Well said. Found this last night and it made me laugh.
Hahaha! That basically sums up this whole conversation with a laugh, I like it ;)
Pretty much hehe
This is actually something I feel pretty strongly about. Our characters, male or female, should be avatars that you can look up to, identify with, and be proud of. In Pantheon, my 17 year old daughter will be able to create a character that she can be proud of as opposed to being embarassed. We're not fans of the overly sexualized avatars that can be found in some other games.
Aradune said:This is actually something I feel pretty strongly about. Our characters, male or female, should be avatars that you can look up to, identify with, and be proud of. In Pantheon, my 17 year old daughter will be able to create a character that she can be proud of as opposed to being embarassed. We're not fans of the overly sexualized avatars that can be found in some other games.
Yeap agree. I think sliders for character creation will handle the needs of people.
I was going to throw down a $100 pledge until I saw this topic. I'm disappointed the devs want to go some ultra conservative route reguarding female models I saw another thread where ladies were asking for sexy looking characters too. "Oversexulization" is just a virtual signaling word. Sexualization is in the eye of the beholder and this term makes it sound like it bad for women to be sexy. It's called benevolent sexism.
IF you think having sexy female characters are bad you are being sexist. I have yet to see one valid argument on why this game shouldn't have sexy female like EQ1 had. EQ2 armor were crap and borning, please don't go down this route.
-"I need realistic armor" WHY? it's a high fantasy game, nothing about is realistic. There is magic, you could have something like Bracers of armor that work just as good as full plate. This excuse is outdated and holds no water.
-"It objectfies women" So? Bodies are objects, no matter what a person wears they are objectify. THe second you put on an outfit on a character weather male or female and think it looks cool, or cute, or neat that character is being objectify. It's not a bad thing. Another catch phase to guilt people.
-"Girls need proper rolemodels" What does the outfit have anything to due with proper rolemodels? If the character is good, noble virtous, that is the character your daughter can look up too. Are all female NPC's in the game going to be conservative and good? Are there no evil bad female characters? An if there are girls who don't like certain desgiens nothing is forcing them to wear it, why does it have to be all or nothing?
-"I don't want to see it" Yeah well people can say the same thing about boring outfits/armor in a game. Just treat it like you would IRL, if you see somebody wearing something you don't like you don't tell them to change or avoid them do you? no you treat like a normal human being and just keep your opinion to yourself.
In the stream with CohhCarnage there is a Male Archai Monk who is completely topless, nobody bats an eye at it and for some reason all the excuses people would normally make regarding female and armor fly out the window. It's complete hypocricy. No one person would say it's, not realistic, objectifing, doesn't belong, not a proper rolemodel.
I really hope in the last 4 years you guys have changed your minds on this. People see the concept art and think oh well the characters are going to look like a proper fantasy. Then we find out it's going to be ultra conservative like EQ2. Nobody is saying make the game completly sexy but it does have a place in a fantasy world.
THe game should have options, it will bring in a larger player base I know lots of girls that want sexy outfits on their female toons. MAybe certain races have fantastical sexy armor or it can be a theme armor from certain dungeons. Like a dungeon dedticaed to a god/deamon of lust or the plane of Love, etc etc etc.
I'll be holding off my pledge until I see what the aesthetics of the armor look like. I spend years playing EQ2 with boring crappy looking armor. Never again.
I never cared about this issue either way. I have known many women who like the sexualization of the fantasy (Barbarella, female and Flash Gordon, male). I think people forget the other side of the coin. I mean, we all scoff about the female being scantly clad, but think someone like Conan the Barbarian being such is within bounds? Isn't that sexist in itself? Why would a male in such lacking of clothing be acceptable and woman not?
I think this whole issue is pandering to emotional politics, not anything of substance.
I remember playing a monk in EQ and getting the wraps that showed off the abs was pretty cool. So is that sexism against males?
No matter what, we should be given the option of choices to define sexy, tough, weathered, feminine, masculine, short, tall, slender, overweight, you name it... If the world has more pretty people in it, so be it... It would then be obvious that players play what is appealing to them. The more choices the better here. Let people play what they want and get over it I say.
I say have options from conservative, to sexy, and everything in between. i hope we have LOTS of armor styles. that's something i LOVE about ESO. The armor looks/styles in that game are awesome.
Sunglare said:I was going to throw down a $100 pledge until I saw this topic. I'm disappointed the devs want to go some ultra conservative route reguarding female models I saw another thread where ladies were asking for sexy looking characters too. "Oversexulization" is just a virtual signaling word. Sexualization is in the eye of the beholder and this term makes it sound like it bad for women to be sexy. It's called benevolent sexism.
IF you think having sexy female characters are bad you are being sexist. I have yet to see one valid argument on why this game shouldn't have sexy female like EQ1 had. EQ2 armor were crap and borning, please don't go down this route.
-"I need realistic armor" WHY? it's a high fantasy game, nothing about is realistic. There is magic, you could have something like Bracers of armor that work just as good as full plate. This excuse is outdated and holds no water.
-"It objectfies women" So? Bodies are objects, no matter what a person wears they are objectify. THe second you put on an outfit on a character weather male or female and think it looks cool, or cute, or neat that character is being objectify. It's not a bad thing. Another catch phase to guilt people.
-"Girls need proper rolemodels" What does the outfit have anything to due with proper rolemodels? If the character is good, noble virtous, that is the character your daughter can look up too. Are all female NPC's in the game going to be conservative and good? Are there no evil bad female characters? An if there are girls who don't like certain desgiens nothing is forcing them to wear it, why does it have to be all or nothing?
-"I don't want to see it" Yeah well people can say the same thing about boring outfits/armor in a game. Just treat it like you would IRL, if you see somebody wearing something you don't like you don't tell them to change or avoid them do you? no you treat like a normal human being and just keep your opinion to yourself.
In the stream with CohhCarnage there is a Male Archai Monk who is completely topless, nobody bats an eye at it and for some reason all the excuses people would normally make regarding female and armor fly out the window. It's complete hypocricy. No one person would say it's, not realistic, objectifing, doesn't belong, not a proper rolemodel.
I really hope in the last 4 years you guys have changed your minds on this. People see the concept art and think oh well the characters are going to look like a proper fantasy. Then we find out it's going to be ultra conservative like EQ2. Nobody is saying make the game completly sexy but it does have a place in a fantasy world.
THe game should have options, it will bring in a larger player base I know lots of girls that want sexy outfits on their female toons. MAybe certain races have fantastical sexy armor or it can be a theme armor from certain dungeons. Like a dungeon dedticaed to a god/deamon of lust or the plane of Love, etc etc etc.
I'll be holding off my pledge until I see what the aesthetics of the armor look like. I spend years playing EQ2 with boring crappy looking armor. Never again.
+1 To this with Sunglare. Not for me but for my Wife who own my second account from my pledge. If she doesn't get a sexy avatar, she won't play, and thus won't be a subscription. Thus will make it difficult for me to play (bad faction).
Over Sexualization? You should see her in fishnets.
You will at LEAST need a sexy Elvis Enchanter Brad, or Valtra won't play with me, and that would suck!
You men/boys that don't want sexy, fine. Then don't play one, but there is some middle ground where Brads Daughter can play, and my 58 year old wife can imagine being 25 agan.
Aich said:Yeap agree. I think sliders for character creation will handle the needs of people.
I agree too, but I have to say I don't really care if others wanna "overly sexualize" as long as I can be as conservative as I wanna be. Just makes it more like real life, honestly.
Adding on, as a female player, I'm 1000% not afraid to say I'm vain af. I wanna look pretty in the game, nothing wrong with that. I support detailed character customization with sliders. Having the freedom to adjust appearances rocks. My best example is breast size (please don't let this turn the convo a bad direction). I'd love to be able to scale down the size of the model's breasts so it more fits what I have in RL. I'm flat-chested.
Also, hair. I love good-looking hair. Please don't give us ugly hair. Please, if you give us anything, give us good hair.
As long as character creation is reasonably realistic (not cartooniosh/anime) and gives a reasonable range of choices I am happy.
I think the outfits/armour will have more to do with how much gets flaunted than character creation.
Hopefully we won't have males all armoured up for maximum protection and females half naked for sex appeal. Casual clothes sure but females need protection against sharp pointy things just as badly as males do.
While I understand the conceptual argument of those aguing against the realism in some armors, lets be honest.... if we are going to go this route, we need to pull out the AD&D DMG and start looking at the translation of physics into the "fantasy" world, because if you are going to pick on the realism of female armor, well.. I can ruin your day on just about EVERYTHING in a fantasy game today, and keep in mind I will do it while keeping consitent with the intention of the belief that magic exists.
Fact is, I think those who make these arguments are not consistent in all areas of game play. They are picking and choosing, USUALLY based on political or "personal" objection.
Yeah, I get it..., that female in a lion cloth and modest breast covering isn't protected that well, but then neither was the barbarian male she was fighting next to. Either you are here to make a political point (in which case I have little respect or use for you), you are hear to be a purist (which mean you are likely going insane and puling your hair out on literally every aspect of every game in existence), or you are a hypocrite looking for attention.
/shrug
Bakumba said:I like reading threads till i come across people like this always throwing PC into everything... shut up its just a game. Maybe make a stick figure mod for people like you thinking your way is always better or right. I think your comment has the word boob in it more than the whole section and you call others sexest.
Nothing to do with PC and all to do with unrealistic boob armor man. Nor did I call anyone sexist, I called the boob armor sexist. Look at the above cartoon -says it all. I want realistic armor for everyone, period. This includes fake, over-the-top huge shoulder pad and other obviously unwieldy and unrealistic armor you find in WoW and other games. Boob armor issue is one part of a larger problem with cartoon graphics in games, which I do not like.
But I want to thank you for your feedback.
SoWplz said: I'm not sure how wanting a more realistic art style over a fantasy art style is being PC. Is wanting a horse for a mount instead of a dragon PC?
Nothing wrong with that SoWplz, more of an issue I guess from where a persons argument is coming from to be honest.
I have friends that will argue for more realistic armor, but it is based on more of a political nature to the issue (why are women treated as sex objects!) and then ignore all things that counter their position (ie they have no problem with Conan the Barbarian, but think Red Sonja is sexist, /facepalm).
It really is where you are coming from on the argument and if "realism" is the point, I think it needs to be consistent across the board. That is, I find it amusing that the same people who claim a womens armor is wrong also don't seem to make objections about a player swimming in full plate. /shrug
bigdogchris said:Bakumba said:I like reading threads till i come across people like this always throwing PC into everything... shut up its just a game. Maybe make a stick figure mod for people like you thinking your way is always better or right. I think your comment has the word boob in it more than the whole section and you call others sexest.
Nothing to do with PC and all to do with unrealistic boob armor man. Nor did I call anyone sexist, I called the boob armor sexist. Look at the above cartoon -says it all. I want realistic armor for everyone, period. This includes fake, over-the-top huge shoulder pad and other obviously unwieldy and unrealistic armor you find in WoW and other games. Boob armor issue is one part of a larger problem with cartoon graphics in games, which I do not like.
But I want to thank you for your feedback.
This is an interesting video on the concept of armor and how even male armor was not designed entirely to physical reality. It isn't my statement of opinion, but it is interesting none the less on various aspects of this argument:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBtvS5yhTA8
Watemper said:@Tanix
So can we have schlong armor now?
Sure, but remember, socially some things are accepted, others are not. I would think female armor as it has been in the past is more appealing generally than male armor being accentuated to such and VR is free to test the monitary results of such direction, but I think they will likely lean to a more conservative focus regardless of sex and play it safe, which is always the "sound bet".
Watemper said:@Tanix
Lol I was half joking, but since armor back then really did have a schlong part in the armor...and people are talking about realism here..I mean..I am cool with it. lol.
You saw that part right? I thought it funny, and it is understandable to an extent to have a king that has a HUGE bludge in his crotch fighting on the field. It is hysterical and I guess intimiatdating to some.
I mean "OMG here comes the king and he is larger than life in EVERYTHING!!!!" It was pyschological warfare I guess.
EQ2 went with some very bland armor, because SJW's were very vocal about armor before the game launched. It was often criticized later due to the very boring armor. Get woke, go broke. That phrase is proven true time and again. Most people don't fantasize about being, or meeting some boring, plain yokel that blends into the background. If you aim for the dirt, you'll never miss. It's just not going to help your game very much. With that said, I think we'd all be glad to not have characters running around in thongs.
Tanix said:This is an interesting video on the concept of armor and how even male armor was not designed entirely to physical reality. It isn't my statement of opinion, but it is interesting none the less on various aspects of this argument:
Yeah, ultimately this thread is very old and was before what we knew the graphics were going to be. I'm happy with how the character models and armor graphics are turning out.
My question would be... is there glamor or transmog? Can I change the appearance of my items? I personally hope not.
I want armor to look like armor. Not that I care if its protecting or covering, but I want some consistency. I want to know "that's a paladin" by looking at them. I want to know "that's a high level well geared paladin" by looking at them. I don't personally care one way or the other how much skin is shown, as long as it's unqiue and specific to each class and race.
EppE said:My question would be... is there glamor or transmog? Can I change the appearance of my items? I personally hope not.
I want armor to look like armor. Not that I care if its protecting or covering, but I want some consistency. I want to know "that's a paladin" by looking at them. I want to know "that's a high level well geared paladin" by looking at them. I don't personally care one way or the other how much skin is shown, as long as it's unqiue and specific to each class and race.
Oh I agree. In a game when looks are important for that "WOW" moment of seeing a sweet item for the first time, it would be self defeating to allow people to change the looks.
I personally feel the same way about helms/cloaks too. But as long as I can force them on for my viewing for my screen I suppose I have to settle.
Tanix said:bigdogchris said:Bakumba said:I like reading threads till i come across people like this always throwing PC into everything... shut up its just a game. Maybe make a stick figure mod for people like you thinking your way is always better or right. I think your comment has the word boob in it more than the whole section and you call others sexest.
Nothing to do with PC and all to do with unrealistic boob armor man. Nor did I call anyone sexist, I called the boob armor sexist. Look at the above cartoon -says it all. I want realistic armor for everyone, period. This includes fake, over-the-top huge shoulder pad and other obviously unwieldy and unrealistic armor you find in WoW and other games. Boob armor issue is one part of a larger problem with cartoon graphics in games, which I do not like.
But I want to thank you for your feedback.
This is an interesting video on the concept of armor and how even male armor was not designed entirely to physical reality. It isn't my statement of opinion, but it is interesting none the less on various aspects of this argument:
LOL I was just about to share this! I still need to watch his barbarian armor video.
