Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Stats on Gear

    • 76 posts
    March 22, 2016 2:46 PM PDT

    Crazzie said:

    Thats a huge difference, because anyone in their 40's would or should try to let you down nicely, lol what else am i going to say to that one. Today these games are full of 12 year olds. I would expect it from them and WOW is full of them. Not so much when i played but today i belive its jammed packed.

    Plus this is a different game, so i expect it to be much better. I dont expect a ton of WOW 12 year olds to be here.

    Well it was always a gear grind in WoW.  If you didn't do raids/dungeons you couldn't improve your gear.  You needs the mat's from the dungeon to craft it, or the set pieces, or the tokens.  Not much fun, but it was the nature of the game.  It didn't help that people were in a huge rush to do as many repeats of the raid as possible to get more tokens/chances at drops.

     

    I hope we steer way clear of that kind of thing here.

    • 58 posts
    March 22, 2016 3:31 PM PDT

    Crafted/Dungeon gear as entry to raiding. Better gear the higher you go.  Risk vs Reward.  If someone doesn't want to raid that's cool.  There should be stuff for those players to do.  But if what you want is the best gear you know where to go.

     

    Stat:  Limiting stats limits choice and the ability to spec out a setup.  Maybe certain stats are better for short fights and longer fights for others.  I miss having real choices not just a straight here's your stat weights!!

    • 1429 posts
    March 22, 2016 5:45 PM PDT

    Crazzie said:

     

    Look at EQ, 15 years later and they have no choice but to nerf spells, pets, characters, stats because they went to far with it.

    I hope the devs really concider what happened here, and learn from it because a ton of players just walked away. Myself included and i took a good grand with me. I actually invested that much in the year i returned and left after they changed it. I invested to upgrade then they gave it all away for free then nerfed all the classes i built up. I was pissed..... was i the only one? no.

     

    A Grand of what?

    • 36 posts
    March 22, 2016 9:01 PM PDT
    Most annoying aspect of newer MMO games.

    Soandso LFG

    "What do you parse?"

    Sigh...
    • 69 posts
    March 24, 2016 11:43 AM PDT

    What I would like to see come to the table is added Bane stat (bonus to hit or to damage) for wepaons. I thought that added a nice touch to items you went looking for, for mobs you enjoy killing.

    When I first started EQ I spent time in Blackburrow and then learned of the Gnollslayer and how it was specific to Gnolls. Well, that intrigued me. Of course by the time I got it I was beyond the experience of BB, but i recall making it my on quest to get it for that purpose.

    I also don't mind some basic effect buffs on gear either. Once again it makes you tailor your character mre to your liking. It sholdn't be anything ground breaking, but it should be enough to warrant your decision over another item.

     

     

    • 33 posts
    March 25, 2016 9:34 AM PDT

    I have always enjoyed getting better gear with better stats. It’s an extra journey and for a lot a main character building exercise and achievement. I agree a new bad player can get high stat gear and last longer than a better player with lesser stat gear but good players get known as do bad so in the end the better player will be the one called for.

     

     

     

    • 756 posts
    March 25, 2016 10:13 AM PDT

    Manouk said:

    Crazzie said:

     

    Look at EQ, 15 years later and they have no choice but to nerf spells, pets, characters, stats because they went to far with it.

    I hope the devs really concider what happened here, and learn from it because a ton of players just walked away. Myself included and i took a good grand with me. I actually invested that much in the year i returned and left after they changed it. I invested to upgrade then they gave it all away for free then nerfed all the classes i built up. I was pissed..... was i the only one? no.

     

    A Grand of what?

     

    cash

    • 295 posts
    March 25, 2016 10:30 AM PDT

    Once again I like the way Everquest did this, although with 1 exception I think some may disagree with... I think the difference between a fresh level 60 and a velious geared max raid level 60 was too large, I believe the Kunark difference was perfect, if not slightly underpowered... I'll throw some numbers out so people can understand.

     

    In Kunark a max geared raid warrior had approximately 5-5.5k hp at level 60, when velious released, the maximum best in slot hp for a raid geared warrior changed to 9k... that's something I don't think should happen.  Also for comparison, a naked warrior at level 60 has approximately 2-2.4k hp depending on race/stat distribution.  So in Kunark, a raid geared character was over twice as powerful as a naked character, if I had to guess the hp of a warrior with best in slot outside of raid gear, he could probably get 4.5-5k, where as in Velious, that same tank would have about 6-6.5k outside of raid, or 9k with best in slot raid.

     

    Naked Level 60 Warrior = 2.4k approx

     

    Kunark ---- Dungeon = 4.5 - 5k

    Kunark ---- Raid = 5 - 5.5k

    10% change

    Velious ---- Dungeon 6 - 6.5k

    Velious ---- Raid 9k

    44% change

    Everything looks good to me in Kunark, but that jump in Velious from a dungeon geared took to a raid geared toon was just too strong, it was a 44% jump in hp just from group gear to raid gear (granted this raid gear was best in slot that could take years to accomplish, but nevertheless) and it just got worse from each expansion after in Everquest.

     

    TL:DR I'd like to see the change from best in slot group gear, to best in slot raid gear be somewhere between 15-25%

     

    Things I haven't thought about yet, do I feel ok with where the hp is at between a naked toon and a group geared toon?  Your thoughts?


    This post was edited by Rallyd at March 25, 2016 10:36 AM PDT
    • 1605 posts
    March 25, 2016 12:03 PM PDT

    Rallyd said:

    Once again I like the way Everquest did this, although with 1 exception I think some may disagree with... I think the difference between a fresh level 60 and a velious geared max raid level 60 was too large, I believe the Kunark difference was perfect, if not slightly underpowered... I'll throw some numbers out so people can understand.

     

    In Kunark a max geared raid warrior had approximately 5-5.5k hp at level 60, when velious released, the maximum best in slot hp for a raid geared warrior changed to 9k... that's something I don't think should happen.  Also for comparison, a naked warrior at level 60 has approximately 2-2.4k hp depending on race/stat distribution.  So in Kunark, a raid geared character was over twice as powerful as a naked character, if I had to guess the hp of a warrior with best in slot outside of raid gear, he could probably get 4.5-5k, where as in Velious, that same tank would have about 6-6.5k outside of raid, or 9k with best in slot raid.

     

    Naked Level 60 Warrior = 2.4k approx

     

    Kunark ---- Dungeon = 4.5 - 5k

    Kunark ---- Raid = 5 - 5.5k

    10% change

    Velious ---- Dungeon 6 - 6.5k

    Velious ---- Raid 9k

    44% change

    Everything looks good to me in Kunark, but that jump in Velious from a dungeon geared took to a raid geared toon was just too strong, it was a 44% jump in hp just from group gear to raid gear (granted this raid gear was best in slot that could take years to accomplish, but nevertheless) and it just got worse from each expansion after in Everquest.

     

    TL:DR I'd like to see the change from best in slot group gear, to best in slot raid gear be somewhere between 15-25%

     

    Things I haven't thought about yet, do I feel ok with where the hp is at between a naked toon and a group geared toon?  Your thoughts?

     

    Interesting point/thought. NTOV and the class quest gear were relatively more powerful and or accessible than the kunark dragon/VP gear, and VP was a lot less accesible for most. 

    • 44 posts
    March 25, 2016 1:57 PM PDT

    Wandidar said:

    Ok, so who remembers the ultra uber Orc Fang Earring?  For those who don't, let me remind you:

     

    Slot: EAR

    AC: 3

    STR: +3, HP: +15

    Class: ALL

    Race:  ALL

     

    MAN did I feel uber when I got a pair of those!

     

    Wait... 3 AC, 3 STR, and 15 HP aren't uber you say?  Well, I say WHY?  Or more importantly, WHY NOT?

     

    These days, what matters in MMO is the dreaded "gear score."  In EQ, what mattered was your level, and your skill.  Gear helped.  Gear was nice.  But gear didn't make the player, the player made the player.  Gear just gave players a little extra. 

     

    Who wants to see stats revert to this more old school, more D&Dish model... and who does not?  And why?

     

    I'm interested in hearing opinions from folks who advocate having the "power in the player" - with gear just being a bonus... and I'm interested in hearing opinions from folks who like seeing big numbers on their gear.

     

    It's probably clear from this post that I'd personally like to see the former - gear with very low stats... my reason is simple.  I hate how in new games players who are absolutely horrid at a class, but who have managed to get purples will out-perform a highly skilled player who hasn't yet gathered gear and is wearing greens.  To me, people shouldn't become extremely more powerful just because they get a bunch of drops.  No, for me, a bunch of drops should give the good player a little extra oomph... but a great player nekkid should still out perform a fully geared horrid player.

     

    I say all of this as not a great player, and not a horrid player.

     

    I look forward to reading all of your thoughts on the topic.

     

    OMG lol I remember those! 

    Stats and stat gear basically give players something to shoot for, a reason to go the that uber hard place to kill that uber elite mob, its bait you could say. It is just one of the reasons but the more you have the border the audience you will reach. I started out in EQ with no clue what so ever of class and stat mechanics so needles to say my first character was quite messed up, I was able to counter this mistake some what by being able to find some gearwith stats, but yes gear needs stats otherwise why bother getting it? A big part of games is the sense of accomplishment if I'm playing a game and I don't feel I'm going anywhere I stop playing because now it's just boring button pushing to kill time till the next TV show is on. Stats on gear can help broden the role of a character a bit to make it more interesting to play as well. Do I want my character to look exactly like everyone else's? No do I want to be able to accomplish the same? Yes. Everyone has a different play style stat gear can help players play they way they like and still be viable. One thing I did learn in all the years of MMO it's the players skill that is important with stat gear the environment is changed to accommodate the gear so having stat gear is moot the bosses trash even open world mobs are all adjusted to consider stats. So look at it this way without stat gear the mobs have this much hp, ac, dodge, wis, and so on with stat gear in game then those attributes change to balance out the encounter. Where the difference comes is when you come running along with gear that has no or miss matched stats suddenly the mob is a lot harder to kill which makes balancing the encount much harder so that everyone no mater there advancement in gear can still have fun. Look at all the epic gear quest/raids in all the games even EQ and ask yourself what would have happened if it was done differently. Once you feel you can answer weather you want stats on gear or not. Not sure if this helps or not but its just my 2 cents worth. 

    • 357 posts
    March 25, 2016 6:30 PM PDT

    I also would like to see gear being helpful, but not all important. except in the cases of situational gear. and resist gear. if the "great player" hasnt taken the time to get the gear needed to stay alive in the area of the raid or group before trying to go into the area then that "great player" is instead just an idiot no matter how well he/she clicks the taunt or heal button!

     

    i do agree that stats shouldnt inflate much with gear though. I too liked the small bonuses that you got in EQ1 it was helpful but not overpowering!

    • 34 posts
    August 6, 2018 3:29 PM PDT

    Resurrecting this old thread instead of starting a new one. After watching yesterday's stream, I'm abit concerned with the stats on gear. Cohh was only level 22 and the stats on all of his gear seems quite high for the level, even compared to EQ standards. I know awhile back they said they had a 10 year plan in place for stats and gear to avoid statflation, but these numbers seem high atm. I know it's only pre-alpha and this can change, but it's a point worth mentioning. Cohh's DL had almost 1,200hp at level 22. His chest piece alone was 42AC, 20 Health, and +3 to STR and STA. The Blade of Wrath was even worse. It had 40 Health and Mana and +2 to every single stat. I was hoping to see a slower pace to the increase in stats, much more akin to EQ. Hell I think an entire set of banded armor only had around 85 AC with the chest piece being 15 AC.

    One of the worst things I've encountered in an MMO regarding this was the huge jump in stats on gear in WoW from Vanilla to BC. Basically all of your high end gear was replaced immediately with quest greens in the first zone of BC. I'm not saying that's happening here, but you start treading a slippery slope when all of your calculations are based off of these numbers. Everything has to just keep getting bigger and bigger and you don't leave yourself that room for a more gradual growth. This is especially true since we can see a character's abilities are actually impacted by these stats. I know they also said they decked him out, but it's still worth having a talking point over.

    Thoughts??

    • 2379 posts
    August 6, 2018 3:33 PM PDT

    I too hope the numbers all across the board are scaled down. They fairly recently dropped player stats down to single digits / low teens and it seems incredibly odd to see some level 20ish chest armor giving +3 when a player might only have 8-10 base STR. 

    • 1167 posts
    August 6, 2018 3:36 PM PDT

    The blade of wrath is most likely not a real weapon.  Given the flavor text of "joppas weapon of choice" or whatever.

    I originally had this concern as well.  But then I thought about the fact that they gave him an entire set of gear. For level 22.

    How many times were you in EQ and had a full set of gear for you level which leveling.  Most of the time you will outgrow that area and move along.  We dont have any idea how long it would take someone to get a full set of gear from BRK.   Also remember that we have not seen the "next" set of gear... it could be based around level 29 and only give moderate increase in stats.

    You cant really base the stats in this game off of what eq1 had. Since we dont know how the stats in this game work.  Maybe 45 ac is similar to 20ac in eq1... you just cant compare the games.  

    Also remember that alot ot this stuff is most likely going to change during alpha and beta when thousands of players are able to provide feedback on items, stats and whatnot.  I personally wouldn't be too concerned.

    • 34 posts
    August 6, 2018 3:47 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    The blade of wrath is most likely not a real weapon.  Given the flavor text of "joppas weapon of choice" or whatever.

    I originally had this concern as well.  But then I thought about the fact that they gave him an entire set of gear. For level 22.

    How many times were you in EQ and had a full set of gear for you level which leveling.  Most of the time you will outgrow that area and move along.  We dont have any idea how long it would take someone to get a full set of gear from BRK.   Also remember that we have not seen the "next" set of gear... it could be based around level 29 and only give moderate increase in stats.

    You cant really base the stats in this game off of what eq1 had. Since we dont know how the stats in this game work.  Maybe 45 ac is similar to 20ac in eq1... you just cant compare the games.  

    Also remember that alot ot this stuff is most likely going to change during alpha and beta when thousands of players are able to provide feedback on items, stats and whatnot.  I personally wouldn't be too concerned.

    I completely disagree that you can't compare the games and the stats. The point made by VR awhile back was to avoid statflation and having these huge gigantic numbers. They had a 10 year plan for how stats would progress. If 45 AC in Pantheon is akin to 20 AC in EQ1, that's the very antithesis of trying to avoid statflation. In 10 years, exactly how much AC are you looking at then?? I do agree with your point that the time commitment to get all of these might be quite high, but if someone does achieve this the overall amount of stats seems way too high corresponding to the level is all I'm saying.

    • 363 posts
    August 6, 2018 4:07 PM PDT

    If you've watch the dire lord stream you will know they gave coth a full set of gear for that dungeon .  they still died :)  honestly i think everything will be fine . :):):)

    • 716 posts
    August 6, 2018 4:12 PM PDT

    I'm hoping the same thing.  At level 22 we should see a "RARE" peice of gear for that level have maybe at most 3 stat bonus attributes.  I don't want to see amazing stuff all over the place until level 100.

    • 66 posts
    August 6, 2018 11:47 PM PDT

    Drop rates are probably exorbitant for the sake of testing, don't forget that, those items might not even be on loot tables yet. They're most likley fleshing out the damage/ac algorytims still too. If you look at the character sheet, you'll see their actual stats. Hive's level 18 cleric has less than 12 of any stat. If it's even affected by gear yet.

     

    Isn't it fun waiting and speculating?

    • 45 posts
    August 7, 2018 2:56 AM PDT

    My understanding of the statements in the stream was, that the gear Cohh was wearing can be obtained in the dungeon itself, so one of his items could have dropped somewhere on their way. Not sure if I got that right though, i am not a native english speaker.

    These items at lvl22 and starting stats less than 10 do not match in my opinion. Maybe someone can clarify, if these items do drop in the dungeon? Or do they drop in another area with much higher level requirements, but still in the same dungeon? 

    Speculating is fun, but waiting?! ;) 

    • 205 posts
    August 7, 2018 5:39 AM PDT

    The gear I put Cohh in is technically level 30, gear you'd be able to start attaining in the high 20's.

    This gear is currently statted for testing purposes, and by that I mean it is statted to replicate the projected stats a player would likely have around level 30. These pieces are also overly statted to expedite testing, making it easier for players to attain those stats and hit the content we want them to focus. When we launch, depending on how the numbers change over time, a player should be able to attain this stat spread by level 30, but not through a single set found in a single dungeon. By that time, they will be needing to aquire iconic items from different areas of content throughout the game world. The best quality chest piece for my Class at level 30 may drop in zone X, while the best quality sword in zone Y and the best quality ring in zone Z.

    Regarding the actual stat amount, I can say this: the current plan is for a soft cap of 50/hard cap of 60, including worn items and buffs, in a given stat at level 50. And this will not be easy to attain. You will have to make the decision and a concious effort to focus any of the attributes to raise them that high.

    Lastly, the numbers you are currently seeing are not final and are indeed much higher than we intend to launch with. One of my primary points of focus right now is Class implementation, itemization and tuning/balancing abilities, items and the PC vs. NPC power relationship throughout the level spread. The numbers simply are what they are right now as I work my way toward the sweet spot, getting the "feel" right. Once that is satisfactorily achieved, the numbers themselves will be refactored to retain the feel, but doing that with lower numbers to be more in line with our "lower numbers = better" philosophy :)

    Hope this helps clear up any confusion or concern.

    - Chris ' Joppa' Perkins

    • 716 posts
    August 7, 2018 5:44 AM PDT

    Awesome Chris.  Get some rest man.  You've worked your ass off the past few days.

    • 871 posts
    August 7, 2018 6:12 AM PDT

    Joppa said:

    The gear I put Cohh in is technically level 30, gear you'd be able to start attaining in the high 20's.

    This gear is currently statted for testing purposes, and by that I mean it is statted to replicate the projected stats a player would likely have around level 30. These pieces are also overly statted to expedite testing, making it easier for players to attain those stats and hit the content we want them to focus. When we launch, depending on how the numbers change over time, a player should be able to attain this stat spread by level 30, but not through a single set found in a single dungeon. By that time, they will be needing to aquire iconic items from different areas of content throughout the game world. The best quality chest piece for my Class at level 30 may drop in zone X, while the best quality sword in zone Y and the best quality ring in zone Z.

    Regarding the actual stat amount, I can say this: the current plan is for a soft cap of 50/hard cap of 60, including worn items and buffs, in a given stat at level 50. And this will not be easy to attain. You will have to make the decision and a concious effort to focus any of the attributes to raise them that high.

    Lastly, the numbers you are currently seeing are not final and are indeed much higher than we intend to launch with. One of my primary points of focus right now is Class implementation, itemization and tuning/balancing abilities, items and the PC vs. NPC power relationship throughout the level spread. The numbers simply are what they are right now as I work my way toward the sweet spot, getting the "feel" right. Once that is satisfactorily achieved, the numbers themselves will be refactored to retain the feel, but doing that with lower numbers to be more in line with our "lower numbers = better" philosophy :)

    Hope this helps clear up any confusion or concern.

    - Chris ' Joppa' Perkins

    Any decisions yet on where player crafted items will fall into the itemization tree? A tiny portion, sub quality but high availability, selectively competitive, generally competitive, or fully customizable replacements for dropped items but requiring equally rare ingredients?

    • 1167 posts
    August 7, 2018 8:38 AM PDT

    Mandalorian2K said:

    I completely disagree that you can't compare the games and the stats. The point made by VR awhile back was to avoid statflation and having these huge gigantic numbers. They had a 10 year plan for how stats would progress. If 45 AC in Pantheon is akin to 20 AC in EQ1, that's the very antithesis of trying to avoid statflation. In 10 years, exactly how much AC are you looking at then??

    The point I was trying to make is that you're basing your idea of "statflation" off of eq1.  We dont know how the stats work in pantheon yet... Cohh had like 250 ac.  Even if he ended up with 1000ac st level 50.... who's to say that it is a high number.  You're just arbitrarily putting a limit to the number in your head and saying if a stat goes over that.  Its ridiculous without knowing what benefit the stat even gives or how high the highest possible outcome is.

    But anyways,  joppa pretty much cleared up this whole arguement/ discussion.   So thanks!

    • 1167 posts
    August 7, 2018 8:40 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    Any decisions yet on where player crafted items will fall into the itemization tree? A tiny portion, sub quality but high availability, selectively competitive, generally competitive, or fully customizable replacements for dropped items but requiring equally rare ingredients?

    I personally would imagine that crafted items would be slightly less optimal than dropped items on average.   With 1 or 2 items per tradeskill that is of "rare" quality that might be slightly better. 

    • 871 posts
    August 7, 2018 9:55 AM PDT

    Porygon said:

    Trasak said:

    Any decisions yet on where player crafted items will fall into the itemization tree? A tiny portion, sub quality but high availability, selectively competitive, generally competitive, or fully customizable replacements for dropped items but requiring equally rare ingredients?

    I personally would imagine that crafted items would be slightly less optimal than dropped items on average.   With 1 or 2 items per tradeskill that is of "rare" quality that might be slightly better

    That is actually what I am afraid of. I would consider that in the "tiny portion" only category as after a short time of items dropping from mobs would fill the in game item needs and the sub-par crafted items would have less value than the raw materials to craft item.  At that point trade skills become worthless other than those who just want to have a trade skill for personal/RP reasons.  If that is the case, why bother to even put trade skills in.


    This post was edited by Trasak at August 7, 2018 9:55 AM PDT