Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Stats on Gear

    • 831 posts
    January 6, 2015 10:13 PM PST

    Ok, so who remembers the ultra uber Orc Fang Earring?  For those who don't, let me remind you:

     

    Slot: EAR

    AC: 3

    STR: +3, HP: +15

    Class: ALL

    Race:  ALL

     

    MAN did I feel uber when I got a pair of those!

     

    Wait... 3 AC, 3 STR, and 15 HP aren't uber you say?  Well, I say WHY?  Or more importantly, WHY NOT?

     

    These days, what matters in MMO is the dreaded "gear score."  In EQ, what mattered was your level, and your skill.  Gear helped.  Gear was nice.  But gear didn't make the player, the player made the player.  Gear just gave players a little extra. 

     

    Who wants to see stats revert to this more old school, more D&Dish model... and who does not?  And why?

     

    I'm interested in hearing opinions from folks who advocate having the "power in the player" - with gear just being a bonus... and I'm interested in hearing opinions from folks who like seeing big numbers on their gear.

     

    It's probably clear from this post that I'd personally like to see the former - gear with very low stats... my reason is simple.  I hate how in new games players who are absolutely horrid at a class, but who have managed to get purples will out-perform a highly skilled player who hasn't yet gathered gear and is wearing greens.  To me, people shouldn't become extremely more powerful just because they get a bunch of drops.  No, for me, a bunch of drops should give the good player a little extra oomph... but a great player nekkid should still out perform a fully geared horrid player.

     

    I say all of this as not a great player, and not a horrid player.

     

    I look forward to reading all of your thoughts on the topic.

     

    • 3166 posts
    January 6, 2015 10:16 PM PST

    Stats are nice..but skill playing your class is better. :)

    • 426 posts
    January 6, 2015 10:57 PM PST

    Stats are all relative to the game no matter if it's

     

    WoW's LvL 100 with a 10'000 Hp helm or VG LvL 55 with a 100 Hp Helm, as long as the stats don't end up stupidity high like 10,000,000 heath and that skill is still needed to be a decent player and stats are just that bit extra DPS or survivability i'm happy.

    I like stats more like secondary effects, say a spiked shield that adds a bleed effect when used with shield bash, or a cloak that adds extra stealth radius for sneaky classes.  

     

    • Moderator
    • 8455 posts
    January 7, 2015 1:18 AM PST

    I think stats are important, it allows diversity between classes and creates a feeling of freedom when choosing what gear you want your character to wear, what I really do not like after learning a valuable lesson in VG is Equipped Effects (EEs) they are game breakers and pretty much swallow the Devs into a never ending gear sink, this is bad for everyone involved and harms the game in my opinion.

    I love mixing stats and getting the most out of my characters (usually just my main and a few very regular alts as I am a min/maxer at heart) and getting a new shiny drop that you had been grinding or working hard towards getting feels all the more special if it has some nice stat improvements for your class but another big issue here is itemisation not balanced properly which will result in weird or useless stats on quality items for your characters class and that tends to be a big let down on what should of been a happy occasion!

    Stats are fine and I look forward to seeing them in pantheon but I would severely limit EE's to only rare Epic or rare Mythic items/sets/end game and only on a very limited range of items if any at all.

     

    Great topic too Wandidar, stats are a very important part of any game :)

  • January 7, 2015 8:00 AM PST

    I remember the orc earring, if you got it, it was in crush bone off one of the millions of orcs you had to slaughter at level 8-15. What made that piece so incredible was the fact that not only did it have stats but it WAS NOT level required. Which meant I could take my 65 cleric in there collect all stats gear that had no lvl requirement, turn around and make a new toon and gear it up!!. Advantage when fighting mobs two levels higher than your new toon. Even better if you were able to 2box a healer which I sometimes did. Most the time I spent raiding my lvl 70 wiz with my guild before I had to leave it. 

    Stats gear is great. Speaking from a caster point of view, we need the extra mana and intelligence boost we get from gear stats. Don't get me wrong, yeah if I did nothing but put all my points into my mana and intell, I could blow up the Norrath but a gnome warrior could come and kick me and i will be dead. See my point? Not to mention the EE the come with some gear, or better the clicky gear that some players can not live without, cleric Ankh for example. Yes it has mega stats but it coveted bonus feature is the fact is it is a rez...

    it is http://zam.zamimg.com/images/b/c/bcf3370168c06a8a28d6cc590eaab64b.png

    If a person can not appreciate gear with stats, then they are playing the wrong game.

    • 831 posts
    January 7, 2015 8:03 AM PST

    I think a point I am trying to make though is one of scale.  Follow me here:

     

    - Say at max level, you have 1000 hit points

    - Say with a full set of top tier gear, you can push that to 1100

     

    NOW...

     

    - Say at max level, you have 1000 hit points

    - Say with a full set of top tier gear, you can push that to 50,000

     

    Here's the difference:  In the first scenario, even a great player is getting a 10% bump - which is nice, but not so much as to make the gear out shine the player.  In the second, a brand new fresh max level character with - say 15,000 hit points with the gear they have on simply won't be able to compete with the player who has the good stuff at 50,000

     

    Now say these people were tanking - and say the guy with 50,000 was actually really bad at tanking - but you were able to survive just because his gear lets him... but the new tank simply can't because his gear won't - even though he's a much better player.

     

    My preference is gear stats aligned to allowing players to play - as long as they are able to.  With the lower gear bumps... with the max bump being 10% or whatever in my pretend scenario - a newly maxed but very well played tank can do the job - but - once they get the gear, can maybe do it a bit smoother.  That "smooth" will be noticed.  On the other hand, really bad tank with 1100 hit points - probably not so much.

     

    In short - I think MMO's have used inflated gear stats - have put the power in the gear, and not the player - to cover up bad play. 

     

    On one hand, I'm sort of OK with that - as it means maybe someone of lesser skill can still contribute and have fun... but it also leads to lazy play, etc... when your gear can blanket your mistakes.

     

    Here's an example - I once heard a raiding (healing) druid in WoW say "Yeah, my gear is good enough so that I don't die - so I stand in bad stuff on purpose and HoT myself to pad my healing numbers" - in short, he was pretty much exploiting inflated gear to try and top a meter.

    • 426 posts
    January 7, 2015 1:51 PM PST

    I enjoyed ESO's take on stats were they only show you very basic stats and the rest is left up to you and your play style to figure out what works and what doesn't. 


    This post was edited by Zandil at January 7, 2015 5:13 PM PST
    • 363 posts
    January 7, 2015 5:05 PM PST

    I liked stats on gear in VG you had to be good to pull outhigh dps or heal or agro. I don't want to quest for a month and get the uber dober sword of nothing I want it to raise my defense or dps not astrinomically but a good bit  cause I worked hard to get it. I will repeat I don't want it to one shot it I want it to raise me above everyone else cause I have it and we all know there will be a max dps macro or max agro macro or healing macro that will be found and most will use.

    • 596 posts
    January 7, 2015 6:17 PM PST

    What I think you're asking is a very critical part of an MMO, and that's the weighting of different character enhancements.  Something every MMO has to do is come up with to what degree or to what percentage do items matter, etc.  You have your level, your class, your items, your skills, the buffs that are on you.  All of that has to be weighted.

     

    We are working on this, but it doesn't come quickly (or at least it shouldn't -- I believe it warrants a lot of thought and testing).  So at this point it would premature for me to say buffs are 20%, level is 40%, gear is... etc.  

     

    What I can say, and I apologize I can't be clearer at this point, but gear is a BIG deal in Pantheon.  Yes, the others (level, class, skills, buffs, etc) will all be very important and certainly nothing you'd ignore.  But gear is a big deal, and situational gear a really big deal -- having the right items for the right encounter, and for players to need to be situationally and tactically aware of their surroundings such that they respect the environment.

     

    • 363 posts
    January 7, 2015 6:20 PM PST

    Thanks Aradune for the update maybe would could sqweeze a bit more info from ya lol.

    • 831 posts
    January 7, 2015 6:38 PM PST

    A question of clarification - in saying that gear will be a BIG deal.  I believe you are referring (to a greater extent) to needing cold gear, heat gear, poison gear, etc... and (to a lesser extent) gear necessarily having huge stats... with the percentage of character impact from gear stats being part of that broader equation you guys haven't done the math on yet - correct?

     

     

    • 84 posts
    January 7, 2015 8:01 PM PST

    I get what you are saying, but at the end of the day that skilled player will get the gear. Let's not forget that. Then who will shine?

     

    • 596 posts
    January 7, 2015 8:17 PM PST
    Wandidar said:

    A question of clarification - in saying that gear will be a BIG deal.  I believe you are referring (to a greater extent) to needing cold gear, heat gear, poison gear, etc... and (to a lesser extent) gear necessarily having huge stats... with the percentage of character impact from gear stats being part of that broader equation you guys haven't done the math on yet - correct? 

     

    Yes, I think little stats here and there are good to start with.  You shouldn't start seeing crazy stats until higher level items.  Every stat bonus should, ideally, be felt and matter.

    • Moderator
    • 8455 posts
    January 7, 2015 8:42 PM PST
    Nydan said:

    I get what you are saying, but at the end of the day that skilled player will get the gear. Let's not forget that. Then who will shine?

     

    That is typical with anything in life though mate, there is always someone out there that will be stronger, faster, better than us at something! as long as there is a balance and it can be monitored, it will not get out of hand or have an impact on the game.

    I am expecting something similar to EQ/VG where a small percentage will go all out to hit max level and get the best of the best gear/items asap and the majority will enjoy the journey and have just as many opportunities to gain those items/levels etc but at a slower and more enjoyable pace.

    Some of the top end harder and more rare items may also be obtainable by the "everyday player" as we have a very helpful and mature community, so I am sure there will be Guilds/PUGs with skilled players dedicated to helping others for some of the harder items, so I wouldn't worry too much about that ;)

    • 426 posts
    January 7, 2015 8:47 PM PST
    Kilsin said:

     

    That is typical with anything in life though mate, there is always someone out there that will be stronger, faster, better than us at something! 

    Speak for your self ;)

    • 596 posts
    January 7, 2015 10:57 PM PST
    Zandil said:
    Kilsin said:

     

    That is typical with anything in life though mate, there is always someone out there that will be stronger, faster, better than us at something! 

    Speak for your self ;)

    I have to back Kilsin on this -- there's always going to be somebody who can invest more time and will reach a goal or obtain an item first.

    • 426 posts
    January 7, 2015 11:02 PM PST

    I'm Handsome and Charming, that has to at least count for something 

  • January 8, 2015 9:21 AM PST
    Wandidar said:

    I think a point I am trying to make though is one of scale.  Follow me here:

     

    - Say at max level, you have 1000 hit points

    - Say with a full set of top tier gear, you can push that to 1100

     

    NOW...

     

    - Say at max level, you have 1000 hit points

    - Say with a full set of top tier gear, you can push that to 50,000

     

    Here's the difference:  In the first scenario, even a great player is getting a 10% bump - which is nice, but not so much as to make the gear out shine the player.  In the second, a brand new fresh max level character with - say 15,000 hit points with the gear they have on simply won't be able to compete with the player who has the good stuff at 50,000

     

    Now say these people were tanking - and say the guy with 50,000 was actually really bad at tanking - but you were able to survive just because his gear lets him... but the new tank simply can't because his gear won't - even though he's a much better player.

     

    My preference is gear stats aligned to allowing players to play - as long as they are able to.  With the lower gear bumps... with the max bump being 10% or whatever in my pretend scenario - a newly maxed but very well played tank can do the job - but - once they get the gear, can maybe do it a bit smoother.  That "smooth" will be noticed.  On the other hand, really bad tank with 1100 hit points - probably not so much.

     

    In short - I think MMO's have used inflated gear stats - have put the power in the gear, and not the player - to cover up bad play. 

     

    On one hand, I'm sort of OK with that - as it means maybe someone of lesser skill can still contribute and have fun... but it also leads to lazy play, etc... when your gear can blanket your mistakes.

     

    Here's an example - I once heard a raiding (healing) druid in WoW say "Yeah, my gear is good enough so that I don't die - so I stand in bad stuff on purpose and HoT myself to pad my healing numbers" - in short, he was pretty much exploiting inflated gear to try and top a meter.

    I don't know if this help but here goes. When Sogo and I were playing our last run on EQ Mac with Pathfinders, he had gotten to the point of when ever we were raiding, he managed to out tank several of the other tanks that were higher levels and better geared. Not because he was an ogre but because he knew how to play his character and he did it well. He also paid attention to what was going on. A character can have the very best gear, stats maxed, out buffed out the wahzoo, and it will get them killed faster if they 1. do not know what they are doing, and 2. know whist the hell is going on!

    I have seen raids of over a hundred people crash and burn fighting TT and those butterflies because of stupid people not paying attention. Sad thing for them was the level 60 cleric that healed the dead clerics with clicky sticks so the raid did not have to start over. Funny how a no clicky cleric told to wait out side saved a raid but got nothing in return from her guild, not even a thank you, just another wait here so you don't die and we will get you when it time to roll. ***** about it, most of my gear was starter gear I made, all but my breastplate, that was given by Nivlem my friend. See gear does not matter unless you know what your doing.

    • 55 posts
    December 3, 2015 8:05 AM PST

    Any thoughts on Gear stats being a percent of your stat, or just say a +3, (So plus 2% to stamina pool instead of +8 Stam.)

    Also what about some epic items having like +10 to stamina and -1 wis -2 int (Trading off).

    Apologies if its been covered.

    Tru

    X

    • 201 posts
    December 3, 2015 8:12 AM PST

    Any chance at seeing a real pantheon item? :D :D

    • 1428 posts
    December 3, 2015 8:38 AM PST

    Holy thread necro.  :)

    But as to your point, Tuhart, an item having a negative stat or stats has occurred before but what happens is that players self-restrict which classes are will use the item.  An item as you suggest with +10STA, -1WIS, -2INT is clearly a melee class item because (as is usual) int/wis isn't necessary for a warrior. 

    Percentages are actually more problematic than just simple stat additions.  +3 is always +3 but +% changes.  If you start with 100 of a stat and you add 10 you get 110.  If you add 10% you still get 110.  Now take a 2nd item that has +10 and the first example now has 120 and the 2nd now has 121.  As the pool gets higher the +% gets larger and larger.

    • 55 posts
    December 3, 2015 8:54 AM PST

    Exactly, it gets more complicated and more involved. ( my plus and minus was just a throw away could have been +10 sta -5 constution . just trying out items with plus and minus on them.)

    So do you wear the 2  rings with +3% stam and plus 3% stam or the 2 rings with +(insert number) stam each, or one of both?

    Get your exel spreadsheets at the ready.

    • 1428 posts
    December 3, 2015 9:08 AM PST

    Percentages, if they are always applied to the base value, regardless of other buffs/stats or effects applied, then it is far easier to balance.  Then any items which had +% to the same stat would be an additive percenage otherwise they are a multiplicative percentage which can cause stats to spiral out of control.

    • 987 posts
    December 3, 2015 1:15 PM PST

    I'd actually like to see gear scale by Character attributes/level rather than raw stats.  It's pretty much a natural combination of +stats/scaling by %.  Using Stamina vs. + hps. Or Int vs + mana, or +Str vs +damage, etc.  That way gear will level naturally with level and gearflation can be controlled much easier than adding +100 hps for the first expansion, +200 for the next, etc. etc.  So, 10 stamina at level 1 may add 10 hps; where, 10 stamina at 50 would add 50.

    Stat caps would still most likely increase as the level cap did, but the increases would be much less than raw stats.  If an expansion was released and the level cap was raised by +5/10, and caps increased at +5 stat per level - having an additional +25/50 stamina that could be gained wouldn't cause the ridiculous numbers that are now seen in EQ.  Maybe +6 hps per/sta at 55, and +7 per/sta at 60, etc.  You also could make some of the older BIS gear be more relevant for much longer.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Also, I have a few another semi-related ideas that would be more controversial, but I always would have liked to see some game try/test.  I'd argue that a way to make gear relevant, have class/race selection meaningful, and have more BIS pieces is have class/race selection continually matter.  Have different  stat "caps" at max level for a Warrior vs a Wizard, and a Ogre Warrior Vs. a Gnome Warrior. 

    Example:  Ogre Warriors with a Base Strength of 150 and 120 sta shouldn't max at the same cap as a Gnome Warrior that started with 100/95.  And an Ogre Warrior with 80 agi/80 dex shouldn't max as high as a gnome with 110/110.  Yes, /complaints about balancing, but say the Cap for stats is +100 of your base, then an Ogre might focus more on dex/agi, where a gnome with str/sta.  But, an ogre "could" go for total max strength at 250 sacrificing mitigation; whereas, a gnome would only reach 200 max - it may offer different styles of gameplays within the class itself.  To me it would add more flavor to class selection rather than "it only effects your base stats and ultimately everyone maxes out the same."

    Also a gnome wizard shouldn't be able to Cap at 250 Strength like an Ogre Warrior.  Same principles above applying.  Wizard starts at 60 STR, and Stat Cap was +100 base stats - they'd max at 160 str.  

    The numbers I've used for examples are just hypothetical - so, if replying, try to focus more on the critiquing the "idea" than the numbers.

     


    This post was edited by Raidan at December 3, 2015 1:53 PM PST
    • 837 posts
    December 4, 2015 5:56 PM PST

    I'd like to go back to the time where gear only had 1 or possibly 2 stats. I don't like equipment that gives huge stats to every slot. It really dumbs down the gear selection process because each item has all the stats.