Porygon said:Mandalorian2K said:I completely disagree that you can't compare the games and the stats. The point made by VR awhile back was to avoid statflation and having these huge gigantic numbers. They had a 10 year plan for how stats would progress. If 45 AC in Pantheon is akin to 20 AC in EQ1, that's the very antithesis of trying to avoid statflation. In 10 years, exactly how much AC are you looking at then??
The point I was trying to make is that you're basing your idea of "statflation" off of eq1. We dont know how the stats work in pantheon yet... Cohh had like 250 ac. Even if he ended up with 1000ac st level 50.... who's to say that it is a high number. You're just arbitrarily putting a limit to the number in your head and saying if a stat goes over that. Its ridiculous without knowing what benefit the stat even gives or how high the highest possible outcome is.
But anyways, joppa pretty much cleared up this whole arguement/ discussion. So thanks!
This game is basically a spiritual successor to EQ1/Vanguard. It's going back to those old school roots and those stats were in essence derived from D&D. Not sure how you don't understand the correlation and that a comparison is warranted here. If 50 of the same stat in Pantheon is the equivalent and does the exact same thing as 10 of a stat in EQ, then you have had an increase in that stat. I know they are different games, but for the most part the stats are playing the same roles. Having high stats at lower levels leads to ridiculous numbers over the course of a games lifetime. Newer MMO's have done this so that the player can see big flashy damage numbers on their screen. That's not what this game is about. It's supposed to be more like the older MMO's. I'm not going to go back and forth with you, it's simple numbers and mathematics.
You're right that Joppa has responded and I'm very encouraged by that response. In fact this quote by him "Once that is satisfactorily achieved, the numbers themselves will be refactored to retain the feel, but doing that with lower numbers to be more in line with our "lower numbers = better" philosophy :)" illustrates my point and I'm very happy to hear it. Thanks to Joppa and the rest of the team, keep up the great work!!
Trasak said:That is actually what I am afraid of. I would consider that in the "tiny portion" only category as after a short time of items dropping from mobs would fill the in game item needs and the sub-par crafted items would have less value than the raw materials to craft item. At that point trade skills become worthless other than those who just want to have a trade skill for personal/RP reasons. If that is the case, why bother to even put trade skills in.
You cant make it where BIS items can be crafted because that takes away the incentive to actually go out and group once you're max level. That's why crafted items should be slightly below (think equivalent to level 45 gear as a level 50) with 1 or 2 rare items that are actually BIS. This creates a balance. My cleric might be able to craft his BIS chest piece and earring, but would need to farm out the other items from various dungeons.
Rangers might be able to craft legs and a weapon... etc
Tradeskills are always going to be less valuable as the game goes on. As more and more people max out their respective skill lots going to drive the prices down and saturate the market with the items of worth. Theres not a real way to prevent this.
Mandalorian2K said:This game is basically a spiritual successor to EQ1/Vanguard. It's going back to those old school roots and those stats were in essence derived from D&D. Not sure how you don't understand the correlation and that a comparison is warranted here. If 50 of the same stat in Pantheon is the equivalent and does the exact same thing as 10 of a stat in EQ, then you have had an increase in that stat. I know they are different games, but for the most part the stats are playing the same roles. Having high stats at lower levels leads to ridiculous numbers over the course of a games lifetime. Newer MMO's have done this so that the player can see big flashy damage numbers on their screen. That's not what this game is about. It's supposed to be more like the older MMO's. I'm not going to go back and forth with you, it's simple numbers and mathematics.
So what you actually mean to say. Is that you dont like that a level 22 character in pantheon has more hp and ac than a level 22 character in eq.
Because that's all you're saying. And that opinion is alot less volatile than that of "omg the stats are insane I cant believe it statflation statflation statflation"
Got it.
Porygon said:You cant make it where BIS items can be crafted because that takes away the incentive to actually go out and group once you're max level. That's why crafted items should be slightly below (think equivalent to level 45 gear as a level 50) with 1 or 2 rare items that are actually BIS. This creates a balance. My cleric might be able to craft his BIS chest piece and earring, but would need to farm out the other items from various dungeons.
Rangers might be able to craft legs and a weapon... etc
Tradeskills are always going to be less valuable as the game goes on. As more and more people max out their respective skill lots going to drive the prices down and saturate the market with the items of worth. Theres not a real way to prevent this.
If the materials to make the end game gear also come from end game grouping content then there is no reason to have the crafted items be any less powerful than mob dropped whole items. If anything the crafted items could/should be more powerful as they are actually harder to get due to needing to find a crafter with the skill and the recipe as well as getting rare drop components to make the version of the item you want.
To be more specific I am thinking of items more along the lines of how the different cultural gear had different stats based on which deity was attached. This way the different base armors would need the same core raw materials from harvesting but what makes the items magical with the stats you want is components that drop from mobs. You can make the items without the mob drops but they would basically have no stats other than what the base item had.
Also remember that they have said that BIS wont really exist as they intend to have multiple options for the same power of gear for each slot for each class. There is no reason that 1 out of 4 options could be a crafted item, after all they are all going to be tradeable. As new content comes out new crafting components and base items can be added to keep it in parity with dropped items.
Porygon said:Mandalorian2K said:This game is basically a spiritual successor to EQ1/Vanguard. It's going back to those old school roots and those stats were in essence derived from D&D. Not sure how you don't understand the correlation and that a comparison is warranted here. If 50 of the same stat in Pantheon is the equivalent and does the exact same thing as 10 of a stat in EQ, then you have had an increase in that stat. I know they are different games, but for the most part the stats are playing the same roles. Having high stats at lower levels leads to ridiculous numbers over the course of a games lifetime. Newer MMO's have done this so that the player can see big flashy damage numbers on their screen. That's not what this game is about. It's supposed to be more like the older MMO's. I'm not going to go back and forth with you, it's simple numbers and mathematics.
So what you actually mean to say. Is that you dont like that a level 22 character in pantheon has more hp and ac than a level 22 character in eq.
Because that's all you're saying. And that opinion is alot less volatile than that of "omg the stats are insane I cant believe it statflation statflation statflation"
Got it.
Appreciate you telling me what I actually meant to say. I got the response I was hoping for from Joppa, so I'll leave it at that.
Porygon said:Mandalorian2K said:This game is basically a spiritual successor to EQ1/Vanguard. It's going back to those old school roots and those stats were in essence derived from D&D. Not sure how you don't understand the correlation and that a comparison is warranted here. If 50 of the same stat in Pantheon is the equivalent and does the exact same thing as 10 of a stat in EQ, then you have had an increase in that stat. I know they are different games, but for the most part the stats are playing the same roles. Having high stats at lower levels leads to ridiculous numbers over the course of a games lifetime. Newer MMO's have done this so that the player can see big flashy damage numbers on their screen. That's not what this game is about. It's supposed to be more like the older MMO's. I'm not going to go back and forth with you, it's simple numbers and mathematics.
So what you actually mean to say. Is that you dont like that a level 22 character in pantheon has more hp and ac than a level 22 character in eq.
Because that's all you're saying. And that opinion is alot less volatile than that of "omg the stats are insane I cant believe it statflation statflation statflation"
Got it.
I think you're missing a bit here, but also that's a fair statement. Yes. It's reasonable and logical to not like that in the name of inflation. Just like I don't want to see a level 10 rogue backstabbing for 300. The higher the numbers get the less meaning they have, to me. Why have 47000 AC when you could have 470? It becomes absurd and makes a game feel more like diablo.
I think they're on it guys lol, They look more competent at gear arythmitic progression than the rest of us. It's not going to really matter if 10 people want level 1 characters to have 20hp and level 50's to have 213hp and raided out to 220hp. You can always just not wear the armor if the stats are to high for you. =P
Ore! hears an eyedea, the character sheet only displays the first two numbers of your stat. So your stamina is 23. out of 23,472! muahaha! That should keep the you hens from turning your nose up.
Trasak said:Porygon said:You cant make it where BIS items can be crafted because that takes away the incentive to actually go out and group once you're max level. That's why crafted items should be slightly below (think equivalent to level 45 gear as a level 50) with 1 or 2 rare items that are actually BIS. This creates a balance. My cleric might be able to craft his BIS chest piece and earring, but would need to farm out the other items from various dungeons.
Rangers might be able to craft legs and a weapon... etc
Tradeskills are always going to be less valuable as the game goes on. As more and more people max out their respective skill lots going to drive the prices down and saturate the market with the items of worth. Theres not a real way to prevent this.
If the materials to make the end game gear also come from end game grouping content then there is no reason to have the crafted items be any less powerful than mob dropped whole items. If anything the crafted items could/should be more powerful as they are actually harder to get due to needing to find a crafter with the skill and the recipe as well as getting rare drop components to make the version of the item you want.
To be more specific I am thinking of items more along the lines of how the different cultural gear had different stats based on which deity was attached. This way the different base armors would need the same core raw materials from harvesting but what makes the items magical with the stats you want is components that drop from mobs. You can make the items without the mob drops but they would basically have no stats other than what the base item had.
Also remember that they have said that BIS wont really exist as they intend to have multiple options for the same power of gear for each slot for each class. There is no reason that 1 out of 4 options could be a crafted item, after all they are all going to be tradeable. As new content comes out new crafting components and base items can be added to keep it in parity with dropped items.
I liked the approach Vanguard took towards crafted gear. Basically everyone always wanted crafted stuff because the best of it was better at the level it was at until you managed to get adventuring drops. There was a good crafted gear economy in VG. But also the absolute best armor at late game you could get before raid drops required adventuring and crafting, you had to grind some faction and there were some materials bought from vendors that you had to have high enough faction to talk to and then components you got as drops from named bosses and then you had to have a crafter with high enough skills and good enough crafting equipment to finish putting it together for you. It was the Swamp Armor sets: Gorgalok, Ichtakhta and Flordiel.
Tagaderm said:I liked the approach Vanguard took towards crafted gear. Basically everyone always wanted crafted stuff because the best of it was better at the level it was at until you managed to get adventuring drops. There was a good crafted gear economy in VG. But also the absolute best armor at late game you could get before raid drops required adventuring and crafting, you had to grind some faction and there were some materials bought from vendors that you had to have high enough faction to talk to and then components you got as drops from named bosses and then you had to have a crafter with high enough skills and good enough crafting equipment to finish putting it together for you. It was the Swamp Armor sets: Gorgalok, Ichtakhta and Flordiel.
That sounds like a good system to me. There is a lot that salvaging specific items could bring to that equation as well, think managing to strip the proc off of a weapon you cannot use and have it put onto one you can.
Keno Monster said:I think you're missing a bit here, but also that's a fair statement. Yes. It's reasonable and logical to not like that in the name of inflation. Just like I don't want to see a level 10 rogue backstabbing for 300. The higher the numbers get the less meaning they have, to me. Why have 47000 AC when you could have 470? It becomes absurd and makes a game feel more like diablo.
I think the issue here is that "you guys" saw cohhs stats and armor and compared it to another game and thought they were too high. I didnt.
I agree that 47000 and 470 are different.. but nothing at all indicates that the game was heading that way. To me it was a knee jerk reaction to seeing stats you felt were too high compared to a game that you previously played. That's all. And that was the point I was trying to make. Poorly.
Porygon said:Keno Monster said:I think you're missing a bit here, but also that's a fair statement. Yes. It's reasonable and logical to not like that in the name of inflation. Just like I don't want to see a level 10 rogue backstabbing for 300. The higher the numbers get the less meaning they have, to me. Why have 47000 AC when you could have 470? It becomes absurd and makes a game feel more like diablo.
I think the issue here is that "you guys" saw cohhs stats and armor and compared it to another game and thought they were too high. I didnt.
I agree that 47000 and 470 are different.. but nothing at all indicates that the game was heading that way. To me it was a knee jerk reaction to seeing stats you felt were too high compared to a game that you previously played. That's all. And that was the point I was trying to make. Poorly.
Fair.
I appreciate Joppa's comment. One thing I'd also like to see is a return to more classic "stating" of items. That is, the stats more reflect the lore of the item rather than just the class it goes on.
With your abilities being directly impacted by stats now, that would bring back the ability to have INT play a role for Warriors, or WIS play a role for Monks, etc. Abilities could be keyed off or influenced by some non-primary stats. This would bring back a lot of flavor and encourage people to NOT min/max.
I'm glad you are adding that type of augmenting to spells to mix things up a bit.
CrouchingLiger said:Are there any plans to give class specific ability buffs to class specific gear?
You might be better off making a new post rather than resurrecting this old one on stats on gear?
But from what I've heard over the years, I would say, that the answer is yes, in various ways.
Devs have spoken about epic items and clicky items in the past, and, if they are anything like previous incarnations in games like Everquest, they often had buffs or effects akin to class abilities. The class specific epic items especially would have effects related to the appropriate class.
Recently (the April newsletter), a concept called Techniques was introduced (Techniques News Page). These are extra abilities, or alterations to existing class abilities (I'm not sure that is totally clear, yet), associated with using particular weapons that enable specific Techniques.
I may be interpreting this wrong... someone correct me if so... but you might find a Sword of Blocking, say, that had a Blocking Technique that would give a Block ability or might enhance the existing Block abilities of, say, a Warrior.
You might have a Staff of Fire that has a Flaming Technique that throws a Fireball for any class, or enhances the fire-based abilities of a Wizard.
I think Techniques enhance the existing weapon-based abilities of a class, so my examples might not be great... but you hopefully get the idea that, yes, some 'class gear' may give class specific buffs.