Geex said: Little add to my post (looks like I cant edit on phone). I think no transmog and no toggle but dyes would be the best compromise. If you can colormatch your gear its impossible to look like a clown.
I would tack on a decently customizable crafting option where another piece of gear can be put into the augment slot of the recipe and in some portion of the stats are transferred to the new base. The exact amount will likely be relative to the difference in base type.
The “appearance slot” items could all be new design options that crafters learn over time. Lore Artifact appearances can never be duplicated by crafting though.
Lastly all crafted items are BoE so once equipped they leave the player market where as the base item sacrificed might have been tradeable.
Regardless of what you call it, having one item appear instead of a used item, for show, is cosmetic. Regardless of whether it is hard to obtain, the item being shown is not the item utilised. Personally, I wish to see the item being utilised. I am not saying that people shouldnt used cosmetic items. That is up to them and their client will show those items. I would choose to see the item that is adding to the stats. Also, if it is hard ot obtain, then just add stats and use that instead of showing something else.
Now, me not showing the cosmetic items on my client is not in any way stopping you from role playing or showing those items on your client. Whether I have them shown or not, does not impede your ability to role play (even if it is just cosmetic). You have no way of knowing what I am looking therefore cannot influence your role play unless I tell you such (which I wont).
I would rather there be no cosmetic items at all. But if there is, then I do want a toggle. This is my client and I want the ability to control my client the way I would like (to the point that the developers allow me to, anyway).
Lets take this to an extreme. If a cosmetic item (a sword for instance) had a blood and gore effect on it, and I chose not to show blood and gore, then that is my choice and I should not be forced to show it. By the arguments being used here, this would also interfere with the role play aspect. It doesnt.
The argument I really have a problem with here, when I am told that if I dont like it, I can switch off is quite frankly even more controlling. What? I can have it your way or not at all? Talk about restricting play!
This is a discussion page and all views are relevant and it definately is not a dictatorship (at least not where I live). I will be in control of my client. If the option is there to hide cosmetic items, then I will use it. I personally think it should be there if we have cosmetic items.
What i dont get is why you cannot role play with the items you are using..? Whether I am viewing cosmetic items or not, makes no difference to your ability to role play.
chenzeme said:Regardless of what you call it, having one item appear instead of a used item, for show, is cosmetic. Regardless of whether it is hard to obtain, the item being shown is not the item utilised.
True.
chenzeme said:Personally, I wish to see the item being utilised. I am not saying that people shouldnt used cosmetic items. That is up to them and their client will show those items. I would choose to see the item that is adding to the stats. Also, if it is hard ot obtain, then just add stats and use that instead of showing something else.
I understand, but as I always follow up: Why? Why must you know what stats I have or what gear I am wearing? I am yet to see an argument that couldn't be met by appropriate use of appearance gear and the /inspect feature.
chenzeme said:Now, me not showing the cosmetic items on my client is not in any way stopping you from role playing or showing those items on your client. Whether I have them shown or not, does not impede your ability to role play (even if it is just cosmetic). You have no way of knowing what I am looking therefore cannot influence your role play unless I tell you such (which I wont).
It's been explained again and again. Choosing to see through appearance gear *of course* effects the concept. It's like saying not seeing an actor's costume doesn't effect the character they portray. Of course you *can* play a role without an appropriate costume, or even with a bad one, but it, of course, damages the whole thing. Some would say makes it pointless. Not knowing who sees what is the whole point. That doesn't make it better, it makes it worse. If an actor had no idea if his costume was part of the performance or not he just wouldn't bother.
chenzeme said:I would rather there be no cosmetic items at all. But if there is, then I do want a toggle. This is my client and I want the ability to control my client the way I would like (to the point that the developers allow me to, anyway).
And if there is a toggle, I would prefer there not be cosmetic items at all. It would be largely wasted development effort.
chenzeme said:Lets take this to an extreme. If a cosmetic item (a sword for instance) had a blood and gore effect on it, and I chose not to show blood and gore, then that is my choice and I should not be forced to show it. By the arguments being used here, this would also interfere with the role play aspect. It doesnt.
Of course it effects the role play aspect, but some things that might well be offensive or inappropriate to a reasonable proportion of the population can sometimes 'trump' the need for things like blood and gore. In your example, the dripping blood might be removed but the wicked red blade would still be there and probably be enough.
chenzeme said:The argument I really have a problem with here, when I am told that if I dont like it, I can switch off is quite frankly even more controlling. What? I can have it your way or not at all? Talk about restricting play!
This is a discussion page and all views are relevant and it definately is not a dictatorship (at least not where I live). I will be in control of my client. If the option is there to hide cosmetic items, then I will use it. I personally think it should be there if we have cosmetic items.
What i dont get is why you cannot role play with the items you are using..? Whether I am viewing cosmetic items or not, makes no difference to your ability to role play.
And around and around we go. Yes you can role-play with whatever gear is in the game. But if there *IS* appearance gear, developed and put in the game by VR, to give you a choice over your image, other people should not be able to ruin that choice and neuter that feature with a toggle.
What next? A toggle to not show elves, because I think they look silly? A toggle to lower damage from monsters because I find it too hard? A toggle to turn off gravity because I don't like the climbing feature? They wouldn't effect others, would they? Why not?
disposalist: It's been explained again and again. Choosing to see through appearance gear *of course* effects the concept. It's like saying not seeing an actor's costume doesn't effect the character they portray...
As I have explained again and again, my view of the world doesnt affect your ability to role play. Simple as. I cannot make that any simpler. It is my client, allow me to turn on and off what I want. It has no effect on your role play experience. NONE what so ever. If I choose to see costumes, then fine. If I choose not to, then fine. It does not affect you! It doesnt affect your abilities or experience.
disposalist: In your example, the dripping blood might be removed but the wicked red blade would still be there and probably be enough.
My point that you (either intentially or not) ignore, is that someone could claim that they are role playing and need the gore switched so that people can see how blood thristy their character is. Its their role play. Of course they shouldnt force me to see the blood and gore if I so choose. It makes no odds to them if I have blood and gore switched off or not. In exactly the same way, it makes no odds if I have costumes on or off.
disposalist: And around and around we go...other people should not be able to ruin that choice and neuter that feature...
We are not going to see eye to eye. I believe I am role playing as soon as my character loads, with the equipment they are carrying. You believe differently.
You are trying to force my to view the world to how you want it to be, I am not trying to change your view of the world in any way. That is the difference. I am trying to control my view and my view alone.
As I have said over and over, my view of the world cannot affect your ability or desire to role play in that world. You do not know what I am looking at. What is on my screen has NO affect on you. Full stop.
Nah. I understand you point of view. You want to see what's 'real' though you won't say why.
If you don't understand that portraying a role is about what *others see* and is, of course, effected by others choosing *not to see it*, then, no, we are not going to see eye-to-eye lol.
"Hello. I'm Roger the Red."
"Why do they call you Roger the Red?"
"Isn't it obvious?"
"No"
"Because of my outfit..."
"But it's mostly blue and some green"
"No it's not..."
"Yes it is"
Oh, yeah, awesome. A toggle has no effect at all.
Does there *need* to be appearance gear? No.
If there *is* to be appearance gear, everyone needs to see it or it doesn't work.
If we are going to have a shared experience, we all need to see the same things.
disposalist said:And around and around we go.
What next? A toggle to not show elves, because I think they look silly? A toggle to lower damage from monsters because I find it too hard? A toggle to turn off gravity because I don't like the climbing feature? They wouldn't effect others, would they? Why not?
Exactly, well stated! VR just cannot give each player their own toggle for whatever each person personally wants. And if they do, then another person will complain that it’s not fair they didn’t get their own toggle for something else and so on... This is why the toggle should not be in Pantheon, and it literally goes against the whole point of the vision for this mmorpg. More concerning is that toggles undo what VR has done and it eventually starts to ruin the world they envisioned. We will be in their world, and as VR has stated, this world is an immersive world. Keep the toggle in WoW; WoW should stay in WoW.
disposalist said:
"Hello. I'm Roger the Red."
"Why do they call you Roger the Red?"
"Isn't it obvious?"
"No"
"Because of my outfit..."
"But it's mostly blue and some green"
"No it's not..."
"Yes it is"
Yep, that’s why toggle literally goes against the tenets and vision of Pantheon. This is going to be an immersive world of shared experiences. It is quite obvious.
Sunglare said:Choices on what to see won't matter when everyone looks bland and VR and stated numerous times the armor will be "realistic." So no high fantsay looking armor even though it's high fantasy game. Armor has to have a proper protrayal because reasons.
Have you seen Aradune's shiny green plate and flaming swords?
It's not bland, it's just not... World of Warcraft and the Shoulderpads of Ostentatious Infeasable Blindingness.
After reading thru people's posts I'm changing my stance. They've convinced me that toggles are not the way to go in this particular case. I also now don't think that anyone is as far apart as they seemed to me at first. I mean everyone agrees that players should have a choice in how they look and everyone agrees that there is a point where that choice goes to far and shouldn't be allowed (such as pink fluffy bunny costumes). The only difference really is where people draw that line.
Some like myself, think the choices should stop at original game design. If you have armor A but like the looks of armor B then go farm armor B and wear that. The choice is real. Now there might be consequences such as armor B looks better but armor A has better stats but I'm all for choices with consequences. I even think choices with consequences is in the spirit of the game. The stat difference may be minor so you might choose better looks. The stat difference may be large so you choose the armor with better stats. Either way, it's your choice.
Others want transmog, the ability to have the stats of armor A but the looks of armor B. The best of both worlds. All the choices but absolutely no consequences. Clearly worded to favor my own bias but the point is still sound...We all want to allow choice but not to much, where that line is drawn is subjective.
disposalist said:Why? Why must you know what stats I have or what gear I am wearing? I am yet to see an argument that couldn't be met by appropriate use of appearance gear and the /inspect feature.
This has been answered by Brad at least half a dozen times.
Like many things that people disagree about on these forums, how an individual feels doesn't matter. What's best for the game and the community as a whole is all that matters.
There is a big difference between having to inspect someone and seeing that player run by you in town, knowing what gear they are wearing by sight, and what it took to acquire it.
Brad said: It is important for community in our opinion that people see your gear, especially more exotic gear, worn on you, to inspire them to earn that gear if that want to look that way on day in their future.
AraduneMitharaIt means likely no dyes at all. What you wear is what people will see. A high level player walking into town deserves to be gawked at. We want players to go, "wow, look at that guy! i want to be that powerful one day".
Brad said: "What you’re wearing does show off what you accomplish, how high level you are, what adventures you have gone on to inspire others. If we do allow any kind of cosmetic gear, it will probably be restricted so that people won’t be able to arbitrarily change the side of their Mithril Plate. We want people to recognize they have Mithril Plate on."
And I've answered that before too. Brad didn't say it's important to see your stats. He said he wanted to be inspired by your gear.
Also, there have been lots of changes in stance over the years, even by Brad, and there is mention of appearance gear and cosmetics in the FAQ. There would be no toggle issue to discuss if there were no prospect of appearance gear.
The OP's question is not "should there be appearance gear" it is "should another *player* be in control of your appearance".
If VR decide no appearance slots, fine. But if there is, letting players circumvent the feature? The toggle some people clearly do not want.
Personally, I would prefer if appearance gear is just 'gear', not non-adventuring at all. Whatever you use in appearance slots could have been more challenging to obtain and is more prestigeous than the gear you're holding onto in your main slot just because you haven't come across anything with better stats yet.
There's no point in circling around and around though. VR haven't ruled out appearance slots yet nor been clear on how they would work, no matter what Brad quotes, or other, people post.
Also, these are discussion forums. Maybe it's not useful to talk about it *shrug* until Kilsin comes and shuts it down, it's probably ok, though, eh?
Jobeson said: I will laugh so hard if the perception system was used to allow you to see through the illusions of the armor. Bake the option into the game instead of a toggle.
If it were 'permanent' it would break the system as much as the toggle. If it were activated, it would be fine, just like /inspect is fine.
philo said:disposalist said:And I've answered that before too. Brad didn't say it's important to see your stats. He said he wanted to be inspired by your gear.
No one cares about your gear if it doesn't have good stats. The stats are the inspiring part.
You dont get it.
Yeah I get that some people are all about stats.
Do you get that not everybody is? Notably those that will use appearance slots (the subject of the thread) as developed by VR for them?
And that, even if they are, they *will* still hunt for stat gear *and* appearance gear? That you will still see *all* pieces of gear, because some will prefer the look of the stat gear? Or some will use that stat gear *as* appearance gear?
It's not so simple.
Again I feel I need to point out, I'm not that bothered. If there is no appearance slot concept, that's fine, especially if it turns out to just be non-adventuring gear.
But, to get back to the OP: *IF* VR develop appearance slots then the toggle makes it pointless. I would prefer they don't waste their time and make something that a lot of the people that might actually want the feature will find is spoiled and confusing due to the toggle.
((Nah. I understand you point of view. You want to see what's 'real' though you won't say why.))
I want to see real and I will say precisely why. I value realism a lot more than most other features in a game. Realism in high fantasy? Well, yes. Establish the natural laws of the universe including magic and Gods and then stick to these basic laws. Have us see what actually is unless some form of illusion or magic supported by the lore dictates otherwise. If a God wants all of Her priestesses to appear in a certain way regardless of how they actually look that may make sense but to allow every character of every class at every level to dictate how other characters that may be far more capable with magic than they are see them in a certain way does not make sense.
In terms of game mechanics - letting us control how we see ourselves makes sense and hurts no one else in any way.
Letting us have a toggle to "see other characters as they wish to be seen" is fine with me - I simply won't use it.
Seeing people fighting in bathing suits, or dressed up as fluffy bunnies, or plate using paladins appearing as if they are are wearing bikinis may not hurt your immersion but it won't do a lot for mine. Granted things may not start off that badly but each of us has his or her own threshold for what looks ridiculous and the only way to avoid problems is simply not to allow other players to dictate what we see.
dorotea said:((Nah. I understand you point of view. You want to see what's 'real' though you won't say why.))
I want to see real and I will say precisely why. I value realism a lot more than most other features in a game. Realism in high fantasy? Well, yes. Establish the natural laws of the universe including magic and Gods and then stick to these basic laws. Have us see what actually is unless some form of illusion or magic supported by the lore dictates otherwise. If a God wants all of Her priestesses to appear in a certain way regardless of how they actually look that may make sense but to allow every character of every class at every level to dictate how other characters that may be far more capable with magic than they are see them in a certain way does not make sense.
In terms of game mechanics - letting us control how we see ourselves makes sense and hurts no one else in any way.
Letting us have a toggle to "see other characters as they wish to be seen" is fine with me - I simply won't use it.
So if transmog (or whatever) is achieved via crafting and magic within game lore, then appearance slots are good? Fine with me too. I think appearance slots have great potential for helping horizontal progression activities.
dorotea said:Seeing people fighting in bathing suits, or dressed up as fluffy bunnies, or plate using paladins appearing as if they are are wearing bikinis may not hurt your immersion but it won't do a lot for mine.
No one wants that rubbish.
dorotea said:Granted things may not start off that badly but each of us has his or her own threshold for what looks ridiculous and the only way to avoid problems is simply not to allow other players to dictate what we see.
Good thing that VR would be developing the appearance gear system and items then. If it goes the way that even WoW does it, then appearance gear will only be 'normal' gear but used for it's look. Nothing more. Nothing inappropriate because 'appearance' gear is just... gear - the same items you might wear for the stats.
Appearance gear would not be player designed.
Or are you saying appearance gear = cash shop innevitable? The poor devs will feel so mistrusted and misrepresented.
I want to see adventure gear, not what people think is "cool" or are otherwise wearing in cosplay.
And I do not believe having a toggle makes the system pointless. Plenty of people would be just fine engaging in cosmetic looks even if it only applied to themself and others who had it toggled on, heck people even play opposite gendered characters simply because they "don't want to stare at a ____'s butt all day."
disposalist said:philo said:disposalist said:And I've answered that before too. Brad didn't say it's important to see your stats. He said he wanted to be inspired by your gear.
No one cares about your gear if it doesn't have good stats. The stats are the inspiring part.
You dont get it.
Yeah I get that some people are all about stats.
Do you get that not everybody is? Notably those that will use appearance slots (the subject of the thread) as developed by VR for them?
And that, even if they are, they *will* still hunt for stat gear *and* appearance gear? That you will still see *all* pieces of gear, because some will prefer the look of the stat gear? Or some will use that stat gear *as* appearance gear?
It's not so simple.
Again I feel I need to point out, I'm not that bothered. If there is no appearance slot concept, that's fine, especially if it turns out to just be non-adventuring gear.
But, to get back to the OP: *IF* VR develop appearance slots then the toggle makes it pointless. I would prefer they don't waste their time and make something that a lot of the people that might actually want the feature will find is spoiled and confusing due to the toggle.
Thats the thing that Brad talked about though. It was about having gear with stats that another player desires to acquire when they see another player wearing it because they know its good gear.
If everyone was running around in cosmetic gear without stats Brad wouldnt have made the points he did....
disposalist said:Sunglare said:Choices on what to see won't matter when everyone looks bland and VR and stated numerous times the armor will be "realistic." So no high fantsay looking armor even though it's high fantasy game. Armor has to have a proper protrayal because reasons.
Have you seen Aradune's shiny green plate and flaming swords?
It's not bland, it's just not... World of Warcraft and the Shoulderpads of Ostentatious Infeasable Blindingness.
I'm not talking about wow shoudar pad armors i'm talking about fantasy armor. THe kind people say serve no practical purpose. I wasn't impressed by Ardunes shiney green plate armor. THink more like FFXIV. You can even make your armor invisible so it looks like a person is just running around in their skivies. It's very very stylish and nobody sits there complaining unrealistic armor. That's what WoW turned into also what happened to EQ2 because some people complained about the armors in EQ1.
So to bring this back on topic I see no point in appearance gear if armors just end up like EQ2 armors with no variety.
Final Fantasy? Lol. No thanks. Look up High Fantasy. It tends to be Lord of the Rings style. Obviously 'fantasy' but nothing ridiculous.
Sorry Final Fantasy fans, but that style is bizarre, outlandish nearly Sci Fi, never mind 'fantasy'. Like most Eastern fantasy, it tends to be way over-the-top and unbelievable.
You get races with stuck on bunny ears, never mind cosmetic bunny ears lol.
We all have to suspend our disbelief to some degree, but something less childish and freaky for me, please.
I'm sure nobody complains about unrealistic armor, that's because they know exactly what they are in for with Final Fantasy. Complaining about unrealistic armor in Final Fantasy would be like complaining about hugely endowed, skantily clad women.
"You can even make your armor invisible so it looks like a person is just running around in their skivies" Lol. Yeah great.
