Ok to be accurate: I believe that I should be able to view a player with the gear that they are using, not a vanity set. So in this case, yes, I believe I should be able to control the appearance of other players.
If I am forced to view vanity items, then this is a form of control too. I am being shown an amended view of a player, the way they wish to be seen over the way that character actually is. I am being controlled. Perception of control is very seldom one sided.
disposalist: A lot of the resistance to the idea of appearance slots is like not wanting teleports at all because it will mean no one needing to run anywhere.
This is nothing like teleports, teleports affect game play, appearance slots do not. When in the field, I feel that i should be able to see a character as they would be with the equipment they use rather than something they wish to portray. I do not want to see bare-chested tanks running around when I know fair well that they cannot survive like that in the game.
I am saying I wish to have the option to view the vanity items as and when I choose and not be forced to view them 100% of the time. If they are in game, fine, but allow me the option to view or not.
chenzeme said:Ok to be accurate: I believe that I should be able to view a player with the gear that they are using, not a vanity set. So in this case, yes, I believe I should be able to control the appearance of other players.
"Vanity Set". You say this like 'vanity' is the concept behind appearance slots. It's no more vanity than having a character bio or picking you hairstyle in character creation. It's a desire to play a role. In a role-playing game.
To me "vanity set" implies over-the-top cash shop bought styles that show something more 'powerful' than a player has earned. Not what appearance slots would be like in Pantheon
chenzeme said:If I am forced to view vanity items, then this is a form of control too. I am being shown an amended view of a player, the way they wish to be seen over the way that character actually is. I am being controlled. Perception of control is very seldom one sided.
Very true, but when it comes to control of what a player looks like, you think that control should be with others? Not the actual player? Lol.
chenzeme said:disposalist: A lot of the resistance to the idea of appearance slots is like not wanting teleports at all because it will mean no one needing to run anywhere.
This is nothing like teleports, teleports affect game play, appearance slots do not. When in the field, I feel that i should be able to see a character as they would be with the equipment they use rather than something they wish to portray.
Why? Is this a "I must know their power through a glance at their gear" thing? Because you don't anyway. Especially in a game with a lot of itemisation like Pantheon. And with robes that cover other items. And many other reasons that make that 'glance' inaccurate. If you must know, /inspect. But why should you judge with a view to exclude? (I presume, but why else?). Pantheon will have important gear, but it won't be like WoW where, without the best-in-slot gear from the latest DLC you can't hope to do the next.
chenzeme said:I do not want to see bare-chested tanks running around when I know fair well that they cannot survive like that in the game.
Good. Me either. Good thing Pantheon will not be like that. They've said it won't. How do you feel about an appearance toggle now you know that won't be a thing?
chenzeme said:I am saying I wish to have the option to view the vanity items as and when I choose and not be forced to view them 100% of the time. If they are in game, fine, but allow me the option to view or not.
I understand some people *want* that, but I still haven't heard a good reason why, at least not good enough to allow the neutering of the concept of appearance slots. I hear a lot of assumptions and fears that we either know will not be in Pantheon or we at least have no reason to think will be.
I don't want this to seem like an attack. I sincerely want to discuss and understand, but it seems so many arguments against appearance slots or for a toggle are based in misconceptions and assumptions and I want to resolve/remove those so we can discuss the issues, not maintain the controversy.
disposalist: I understand some people *want* that, but I still haven't heard a good reason why, at least not good enough to allow the neutering of the concept of appearance slots.
I will direct this back to you. I haven't heard a good reason why you should have the ability to portray something you are not using. Why should you display something that is not what you are actually using? Its not for indivuality as there will always be a limiting number of styles to display.
disposalist: ...but it seems so many arguments against appearance slots or for a toggle are based in misconceptions and assumptions...
Please explain my misconception? Appearance slots or vanity slots (what ever you want to call them, and I didnt say vanity has no place in the game) are slots that allow you to display something other than the graphics of the item you are using. I dont fear these slots, I just want the ability to see the actual item that is being used over a portrayl of something else. I want the choice to view or not.
I dont get why you wouldnt want me to have that choice?
I'd rather see what you are truly wearing.
If armor was designed with accent areas and such, then one could customize the accent colors, yet not change the look or identification of the peice itself.
As far as appearance gear, such as non-armor outfit for walking around town, I have no problem with a toggle to load/unload, but if one gains agro or enters combat, then the toggle should immediately have a cooldown timer, so toggling back to your armor set is delayed, or better, it always has like a 3 second cooldown, but agro/combat changes that to 5-7 seconds.
MauvaisOeil: Bare chest tanks might happen anyway with monks around...
Thats my point though. I will know it is a monk with no armour just by looking. Does it make sense to have a monk that looks like he is using plate? I would argue not.
Circles.
"I dont get why you wouldnt want me to have that choice?"
Because playing a role is fundamental to a role-playing game and your image is massive in that regard *to a lot of people*, not to everyone, sure. To have my image controlled by others, not me, and to not know if or when people are seeing what exactly breaks the whole thing (and makes it confusing and weird).
Also, why does the fact I'm "not using" a particular item for gear, but wanting to display that item matter to you? What harm does it do to you? I earned both items. They are both appropriate to my class and the slot. The appearance item might even be more difficult to obtain and prestigeous than the stat item.
"I haven't heard a good reason why you should have the ability to portray something you are not using"
You've heard a reason, you just don't feel the same way or don't feel it's good enough. Fine. But at least accept the desire is valid? To self-expression in a role-playing game?
And you haven't explained why you *need* a toggle, even if it spoils the appearance slot concept for RPers.
"Please explain my misconception"
I didn't mean just you and I have pointed out several misconceptions multiple times in this very thread.
I've said what I want and explained why. You've said what you want, but not explained why.
"I just want the ability to see the actual item that is being used over a portrayl of something else. I want the choice to view or not"
Why? Especially given it breaks what I want?
Like I say, I'm not trying to attack you or your opinion. I'm trying to understand it and see if I can't remove some obstacles from that understanding.
Role playing does not mean showing what you want to wear use over the items you are using.
Also, how my view on the world break the whole thing of the game? You wont know what I am looking at.
Hokanu said:Correct me if I am wrong but if someone (like myself) wants my armour to be known and not cosmetic, all i need to do is not wear cosmetic armour right? Then there will be no effect if someone toggles or not, i will presumably always be represented by the only set of armour i am wearing. ...
chenzeme said:MauvaisOeil: Bare chest tanks might happen anyway with monks around...
Thats my point though. I will know it is a monk with no armour just by looking. Does it make sense to have a monk that looks like he is using plate? I would argue not.
And since appearance slots will have the same restrictions as normal slots, it will not effect class distinction.
There's one of those misconceptions.
disposalist said:I genuinely think most of the resistance to appearance slots and the like comes from misunderstanding how it might work in Pantheon. Assuming the worst, like it will be over-the-top, inappropriate stuff leading to a cash shop eventually. It's not real controversy, it's misunderstanding.
Either way, the OP's question is not "do you like appearance slots".
It's very well and carefully worded and when you ask "should other people control your look" the answer is obvious, yet as soon as you talk about appearance slots and a toggle, out come the comments asserting control of someone elses look is fine.
There's no misunderstanding, there’s already several threads on this topic, to include these.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1712/pantheon-update-2-20-15/view/page/3
The bottom line though is that the gear in pantheon is meant to be identifiable by looking at it, conceal that with a illusion of vanity gear and that’s defeated.
Whether or not you should be able to change its appearance on YOUR screen is one thing(Not agreeing with it but it’s a separate issue), but blocking the true appearance of your gear to others defeats the point of having identifiable gear.
It’s important in PVP to gauge your opponents strengths or weakness, its important to pve because the awesome gear some other player is wearing inspires the onlookers to achieve said gear. Ect.. Just to give a couple of examples.
chenzeme said:Role playing does not mean showing what you want to wear use over the items you are using.
Appearance slots is just one way of achieving an image consistent with the character you wish to portray, yes.
If the game were really sophisticated you might be able to wear a cloak that conceals the look of items your character wouldn't like, or have it embellished at a crafter or have embellishments removed.
Since we won't have that sophistication, appearance slots work fine (and do happily in many other games, not that that is a necessarily good reason to include it in Pantheon, just saying)
chenzeme said:Also, how my view on the world break the whole thing of the game? You wont know what I am looking at.
Not knowing what you are seeing when you look at me is exactly what breaks my desire to define how I am perceived.
Surely that is clear?
I want to design my look. That is what *other people* see when they look at me more. The toggle breaks that.
Actors wear costumes to portray characters. They don't do it to help their self-image. They do it as a major part of the portrayal. If half the audience could choose not to see the costume, they probably wouldn't bother. Wouldn't be worth the effort and would be a confusing effect that distracted from the whole thing. Imagine other characters in the play referring to the costume and half the audience not knowing what they are talking about. Play ruined.
HemlockReaper said:disposalist said:I genuinely think most of the resistance to appearance slots and the like comes from misunderstanding how it might work in Pantheon. Assuming the worst, like it will be over-the-top, inappropriate stuff leading to a cash shop eventually. It's not real controversy, it's misunderstanding.
Either way, the OP's question is not "do you like appearance slots".
It's very well and carefully worded and when you ask "should other people control your look" the answer is obvious, yet as soon as you talk about appearance slots and a toggle, out come the comments asserting control of someone elses look is fine.
There's no misunderstanding, there’s already several threads on this topic, to include these.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1712/pantheon-update-2-20-15/view/page/3
The bottom line though is that the gear in pantheon is meant to be identifiable by looking at it, conceal that with a illusion of vanity gear and that’s defeated.
Whether or not you should be able to change its appearance on YOUR screen is one thing(Not agreeing with it but it’s a separate issue), but blocking the true appearance of your gear to others defeats the point of having identifiable gear.
It’s important in PVP to gauge your opponents strengths or weakness, its important to pve because the awesome gear some other player is wearing inspires the onlookers to achieve said gear. Ect.. Just to give a couple of examples.
There are still continual misconceptions, obviously, despite those earlier threads (and I am well represented there too)
"the gear in pantheon is meant to be identifiable by looking at it"
Ok, right, yes, that is something we can discuss, but have already covered... Since appearance gear in Pantheon will *be* earned geared just like the gear you are wearing for stats, then what you see *is* identifiable and prestigeous. It simply doesn't show you, at a glance, what my stats are for that particular body location.
Why do you need to know the stats of any particular body location?
"Whether or not you should be able to change its appearance on YOUR screen is one thing(Not agreeing with it but it’s a separate issue)"
Yes, it's a separate issue. One that people often confuse or conflate, but you havent'. Good. Sometimes people assume appearance gear is for self-image. I would say that no one I have spoken to use it for that.
"It’s important in PVP to gauge your opponents strengths or weakness"
Yep and I'm not talking about PvP. I accept that has overriding needs in this regard (though I know from previous discussion, some PvPers are actually fine with it). I'm not a PvPer, so I'm not worried about what happens on PvP servers. They can have a toggle.
The simplest solution to this is really to have an option to enable/disable what YOU see.
Toggle it on and you see people with what they have in their appearance slots.
Toggle if off and you see people without what they have in their appearance slots.
That way people who want vanity/appearance slots can have it. And those who dont cant turn it off.
vjek said:Hokanu said:Correct me if I am wrong but if someone (like myself) wants my armour to be known and not cosmetic, all i need to do is not wear cosmetic armour right? Then there will be no effect if someone toggles or not, i will presumably always be represented by the only set of armour i am wearing. ...
You're correct. If you want to look the same, to yourself and others, and be "toggle-immune", then don't use the appearance slots on your character.
You will always appear the same to anyone/everyone, 100% of the time, as the gear you're wearing.
The rest of the use cases of the mechanic are handled by using either the slots or the toggle, but if you don't use the slots, then it's just like EQ1; what you see is what you get.
"The rest of the use cases of the mechanic are handled by using either the slots or the toggle"
I disagree (as you know). The toggle breaks the whole thing. But that's the whole point of the OP's post.
We are not going to agree and we can argue for and against each view as much as you like, and twist meanings as much as you like. But at the end of the day there are two possible ways this will work:
Force people to look at you the way you want them to. You control others.
Let people decide for themselves. Give each person their own control.
I am all for the second option.
arazons said:The simplest solution to this is really to have an option to enable/disable what YOU see.
Toggle it on and you see people with what they have in their appearance slots.
Toggle if off and you see people without what they have in their appearance slots.
That way people who want vanity/appearance slots can have it. And those who dont cant turn it off.
Again. The toggle breaks the whole concept. The point of appearance slots is to define what you look like to other people. Not to not know which people see you like what and have other people control what you look like.
I feel I am saying this a lot. Hmm
This is an unfair, back-handed and self serving question.
A lawyer might ask "please clarify the question" as a professor taught in college should the unprofessional instance arise when another lawyer asks "have you stopped cheating at cards?"
This is not merely looking at something from another Point of view. Must take the higher ground and think of the wider audience instead of trying to steer - like propaganda pundits- a misguided popular view.
This has already been discussed on armor appearance. If one wants to look the way they do, they may to themselves (cosmetic pet noise), others may toggle off what they see. A caveat was, being able to see uber weapons or hard won items by sight and envy. Also the shooting down of cosmetics because they lead to cash shops. I feel cosmetics are unecessary and have tainted the MMO world, one does not buy pixels, because to do so implies those that do have never read their fairy tales when younger and learned the lesson from "the emperors new clothes" And like the movie "Amelie" are missing necessary bits of wisdom to survive- remember when her friend interviews the photobooth guy? asking him to fill in phrases?she was testing him for wisdom, this kind of wisdom.
vjek said:disposalist said:I disagree (as you know). The toggle breaks the whole thing. But that's the whole point of the OP's post.
How so, if you don't use the appearance slots?
Of course it doesn't matter for those not using it. You said "The rest of the use cases of the mechanic are handled by using either the slots or the toggle" beyond the case of not using the slots you first described.
The toggle does not 'handle' use of the slots, it breaks use of the slots.
It's all a preference thing, no matter what the end result is there will be people that get upset.
I personally don't want any cosmetics in the game at all, that's my opinion though and I'm sure I'm going to have to just live with it when there are cosemtics in the game.
Toggle or no toggle, what I see vs what you see, it's all opinion and there's no way to please all sides of this. Just gonna have to decide to have fun with whatever choice the devs make on the subject.
chenzeme said:We are not going to agree and we can argue for and against each view as much as you like, and twist meanings as much as you like. But at the end of the day there are two possible ways this will work:
Force people to look at you the way you want them to. You control others.
Let people decide for themselves. Give each person their own control.
I am all for the second option.
Interesting how you depict self-expression as controlling others and the suppressing of others' self-expression as a personal choice. Talk about twisting meanings.
I get that it *can* be seen that way from either side, but because you know that, surely you see that all things considered someone's image should be controlled by *them* not by *others* which is exactly why the OP carefully worded it that way, I think. To make that point.
Of course you are all for the second option. It gives you exactly what you want. It ruins it for the other side, though. Perhaps a compromise might be better? Like /inspect?
The cost of the toggle is clear. You still haven't explained what someone else not letting you glance their real gear is costing you?
