disposalist said:Gear used for appearance will possibly/probably be gear that is higher level and more difficult to get than the stats gear you choose to keep wearing just because of the stats.
I guess my thought is, the gear that is higher level and more difficult to get would have the better stats and look better already.
disposalist said:People *might* choose to appear more 'boring' than their stats gear is. Again, though, I ask, if that's what *they* want for their image, why does that offend you?
People wanting to look different doesn't offend me at all and I appologize if I came across that way. Written words don't always come across as intended. I'm not sure if it's the right word, but I might say I would be offended if someone wanted me to accept their feelings but didn't give 2 craps about mine. It's a two way street. I'm not making their dragon gear look like pawn shop trash. I'm not making every ninja looter look bright yellow so they stand out to me a mile away ( an interesting thought though). In fact, I'm just wanting the gear to look as it was originally designed. Others are the ones not satisfied with the game design so I should be the last one who should be forced to assimilate.
disposalist said:If you say "I just don't like it" or "it feels wrong" then ok, I understand that, but I would say that the person using the appearance of a bronze BP instead of the BP of Ostentaciousness probably has feelings over not wanting to look ostentatious. Are your feelings more important than his? And since this is about *his* character, whose feelings should perhaps win out? (which is what the OP question is all about)
By no means would I ever be so insensitive to suggest my feelings are more important than his, but I would also state that his feelings are no more important than mine. He bought a game and wants to play it his way, I bought a game and want to play it my way. Putting a toggle in appears to be a reasonable compromise to me. I guess my issue is that the other side doesn't seem to want to compromise at all. They want to change the games original appearance and then force everyone else to be ok with it. They don't see what I see on my screen so why do they care that my screen tells the truth rather than their lies.
disposalist said:Darch said:but my personal opinion is that what you wear should be what you look like with the exception of being able to hide (or unequip/carry) your helm/hood while not in combat. I also wouldn't object to dyes of player crafted armors (and would actually like to see that). To me, changing the appearance (transmog) of a magical/epic (not player crafted) item is immersion-breaking/impractical... It's like winning a sports car from a casino that everyone else has been dying to win, then the winner overhauls it to look like a truck because they like how trucks look... but it still functions like a sports car?!?!?!?! No thanks.
But if you'd read the posts, you'd know that no one wants that either. It would be like making that sports car look like a different sports car, or the same but with a body kit and tint change.
No changing something to look like something of a different type.
This is why my very first statement was "my personal opinion". Changing an SMR to look like an FBR (as one of the examples given (directly contesting your comment of "no one wants that") is not changing the type (as they are both cloth) but it is still changing a non-player crafted/magical item that should not be able to be altered without changing its magic properties - "in my opinion (stated above)". Iconic looks should not be able to be transmog'd in my opinion (regardless of the "type" of material being used - a magically created "flowing black robe" is no longer flowing nor black if its made to look "shiny" and "metalic").
Syrif said:
Just like anything in Pantheon - if you are going for appearance, that should require work via questing, adventuring, exploring, strategizing, and/or grouping at times (not given to you by the click of a toggle button like in WoW). Thus, a toggle is contrary to the tenets of the vision for Pantheon.
I'm sorry if there is confusion here, but this is what I mean by us being in agreement on this subject. As the game currently sits, and has for some time, there is no toggle within the UI to change your appearance or how you view any other character for that matter. I never said anything about WoW classic because there was not a transmog system during that time, nor do I have much experience with Classic WoW. I am saying we are in agreement because I also believe it is something you should have to work for. To your point about the hide helmet feature, I can see how you would not want that to be available through a toggle in the UI, but as it is you have to visit and pay an ethereal being to magically hide your helmet, or change the appearance of any armor. I would not consider paying a NPC a toggle. It cost the player in game currency anytime you wish to change your looks and you can only change the looks of your gear to items you have obtained in the world (money and gear obatained via questing, adventuring, exploring, strategizing, crafting, and/or grouping or raiding). Again, sorry if there is confusion here and my intention is/was not for an argument, but to provide clarity on the subject. I know many people do not like WoW, and I personally have my own issues with the game too. I just think that their transmog system is a reasonable approach to changing your character's appearance.
Hurlicane said:I'm sorry if there is confusion here, but this is what I mean by us being in agreement on this subject. As the game currently sits, and has for some time, there is no toggle withing the UI to change your appearance or how you view any other character for that matter. I never said anything about WoW classic because there was not a transmog system during that time, nor do I have much experience with Classic WoW. I am saying we are in agreement because I also believe it is something you should have to work for. To your point about the hide helmet feature, I can see how you would not want that to be available through a toggle in the UI, but as it is you have to visit and pay an ethereal being to magically hide your helmet, or change the appearance of any armor. I would not consider paying a NPC a toggle. It cost the player in game currency anytime you wish to change your looks and you can only change the looks of your gear to items you have obtained in the world (money and gear obatained via questing, adventuring, exploring, strategizing, crafting, and/or grouping or raiding). Again, sorry if there is confusion here and my intention is/was not for an argument, but to provide clarity on the subject. I know many people do not like WoW, and I personally have my own issues with the game too. I just think that their transmog system is a reasonable approach to changing your character's appearance.
Thank you. Yes, I mentioned WoW as merely an example. WoW is such a mess that it's my understanding there are two live versions of that game: WoW Classic and BoA/Live. Classic has the appearance toggles like hide helm and BoA/Live has the transmog. I am obviously against both the toggle and the transmog, period. Imo either goes against the tenets here. I think those are in WoW for a reason, and I would not want those features in Pantheon. I expect these mmorpg's to be very different from each other. Imo it's time for an mmorpg without those controversial features. I think having a clear choice between games like WoW or Pantheon for ppl will be a good thing. Thank you for your input, you had your opinion as I did mine. Enough has been said on my part, so I will not respond on that again.
streeg said:I guess my thought is, the gear that is higher level and more difficult to get would have the better stats and look better already.
Devs had said, like EQ, we will probably be wanting to keep magic gear for some time. If it is anything like EQ you might be comstantly looking for the next upgrade, when considering your whole outfit, but each individual item could last for many levels until there is something with superior stats that you will be the right level to obtain.
In the meantime, you could be hunting for higher level items that look better, but the stats aren't.
As for higher level stuff always looking 'better' that is just so subjective.
streeg said:disposalist said:People *might* choose to appear more 'boring' than their stats gear is. Again, though, I ask, if that's what *they* want for their image, why does that offend you?
People wanting to look different doesn't offend me at all and I appologize if I came across that way. Written words don't always come across as intended. I'm not sure if it's the right word, but I might say I would be offended if someone wanted me to accept their feelings but didn't give 2 craps about mine. It's a two way street. I'm not making their dragon gear look like pawn shop trash. I'm not making every ninja looter look bright yellow so they stand out to me a mile away ( an interesting thought though). In fact, I'm just wanting the gear to look as it was originally designed. Others are the ones not satisfied with the game design so I should be the last one who should be forced to assimilate.
Understood. Of course, the feelings of both sides should be considered.
The thing is, 'the game design' is including appearance gear. The appearance gear is being designed by the devs. Those wanting to use it simply want it to work as intended. The toggle was brought up as a mechanic to appease those unhappy with the appearance slots concept as designed by the devs, but the toggle breaks the point of the system for those wanting to use it.
streeg said:disposalist said:If you say "I just don't like it" or "it feels wrong" then ok, I understand that, but I would say that the person using the appearance of a bronze BP instead of the BP of Ostentaciousness probably has feelings over not wanting to look ostentatious. Are your feelings more important than his? And since this is about *his* character, whose feelings should perhaps win out? (which is what the OP question is all about)
By no means would I ever be so insensitive to suggest my feelings are more important than his, but I would also state that his feelings are no more important than mine. He bought a game and wants to play it his way, I bought a game and want to play it my way. Putting a toggle in appears to be a reasonable compromise to me. I guess my issue is that the other side doesn't seem to want to compromise at all. They want to change the games original appearance and then force everyone else to be ok with it. They don't see what I see on my screen so why do they care that my screen tells the truth rather than their lies.
A compromise involves concession from both parties. A toggle gives one side exactly 100% of what they want, but spoils it for the other. Literally, not a compromise.
That they don't know what you see is exactly the point. They have no idea if the carefuly prepared appearance gear they have gone to lengths to assemble is being seen or the mishmash of items beneath that they don't even know what looks like. They have no impact over what others are seeing, which is the whole point of appearance slots. The toggle makes the whole concept pointless. (Also weird and confusing with people see different things when looking at the same characters).
I can live without appearance slots. I think it would be a huge missed opportunity, but I would be fine. The point is *if* there *are* appearance slots, as defined and designed by the devs, the toggle that some insist must be there ruins it for those actually wanting to use the system in the first place.
There are feelings on both sides, sure, but since there are it comes down to what the OP first said: "Should another player be in control of your appearance?". Seems pretty obvious to me. If control over external appearance is to be given, it's not others that should have the control over your appearance, it is, of course, you.
Darch said:disposalist said:Darch said:but my personal opinion is that what you wear should be what you look like with the exception of being able to hide (or unequip/carry) your helm/hood while not in combat. I also wouldn't object to dyes of player crafted armors (and would actually like to see that). To me, changing the appearance (transmog) of a magical/epic (not player crafted) item is immersion-breaking/impractical... It's like winning a sports car from a casino that everyone else has been dying to win, then the winner overhauls it to look like a truck because they like how trucks look... but it still functions like a sports car?!?!?!?! No thanks.
But if you'd read the posts, you'd know that no one wants that either. It would be like making that sports car look like a different sports car, or the same but with a body kit and tint change.
No changing something to look like something of a different type.
This is why my very first statement was "my personal opinion". Changing an SMR to look like an FBR (as one of the examples given (directly contesting your comment of "no one wants that") is not changing the type (as they are both cloth) but it is still changing a non-player crafted/magical item that should not be able to be altered without changing its magic properties - "in my opinion (stated above)". Iconic looks should not be able to be transmog'd in my opinion (regardless of the "type" of material being used - a magically created "flowing black robe" is no longer flowing nor black if its made to look "shiny" and "metalic").
I was responding to the sports car to truck example.
I get your opinion, but as I always ask: Why? What do you care if I don't like the look of the flowing black robe and prefer it to look shiny and metallic? The Shiny Metallic Robe is also iconic and prestigeous. To do the transmog I would have to obtain both. If I were to actually change from using the FBR to the SMR it would be exactly the same, lookwise, to you. Do you simply wish to know my stats for some reason? Why is hiding your helm so different and acceptable? In a game stuffed full of magic and illusion, why is transmog 'immersion breaking'? What if it was achieved via crafting?
I'm trying to get to the crux of why people object to the concept.
disposalist said:The thing is, 'the game design' is including appearance gear. The appearance gear is being designed by the devs. Those wanting to use it simply want it to work as intended. The toggle was brought up as a mechanic to appease those unhappy with the appearance slots concept as designed by the devs, but the toggle breaks the point of the system for those wanting to use it.
Perhaps we are going around in circles due to nothing more than misunderstanding? My arguments against changing how people look "solely" revolve around transmog. The idea of taking any piece of armor and making it look like any other piece of armor. This is not the same thing as cosmetic gear that the FAQ refers to (as least not how I read it). My understanding is that cosmetic gear is specifically designed by the devs, sort of like town clothes. Some games use a mechanic that auto toggles you back to combat gear once you enter combat. It basically acts like a fast way to change your clothes but you need to change in combat because fighting in cloth garb is "going to far". I'm not saying that is how Pantheon will do it, but I haven't seen details one way or the other yet. If I'm not mistaken (which is always possible) there has been absolutely nothing stated from the devs that transmog is in the current game design.
To some extent we might be. I mentioned in an earlier post the possible confusion.
It is confusing that VR appear to talk about 'non-adventuring' gear, since they have also spoken about appearance gear being 'appropriate' and there's no way anyone wants someone going into combat in their 'town' outfits.
It doesn't make sense to have a player toggle for that. It should be automatic on entering/leaving town if anything.
No, I am talking about transmog/wardrobe/appearance slots with 'real' gear in them.
If that is in the game, it doesn't make sense to have a toggle. You either allow it or you don't. Don't neuter/spoil it with a toggle.
I really should give up talking about it. There are just too many misconceptions and I've said everything I need to.
VR should give some more clarity, I think. Until they do, it's perhaps too messy a discussion.
It has been interesting. I think that's why the armor/items/clothing that they (VR) develop each to look like is how it is supposed to appear when equipped in their world.
Imo how they make each item to appear is how it should appear; that's the point of developing it lol. It's up to each of us to decide how we want our own char to mix/match things that we obtain on chars via questing, adventuring, grouping, raiding, strategizing and the like. Some will mix/match for purely stats, others for looks, and others for various combinations of both. There will be thousands of items for this very reason.
I've never been a fan of transmogs. I think weapons and armor/gear have identities all their own and it's a shame when that is circumvented.
I don't mind if players want to see their own character in a certain way, but I prefer others see my character as I've equipped it, and that's what I prefer to see on other characters as well.
In past games turning off titles/turning down graphics in general created less lag in raids. Perhaps VR has said that these things will not impact performance. I do not know But if toggle off options improves game performance, especially raid performance, then they should be added/stay.
Overall, I disagree with being told what I should be able to see in-game. Generally, you have options to change how the game is displayed and graphics performance options/toggles. The end-user should be allowed the option to modify what they see for whatever the reason is: performance, immersion, cramped area spam, etc.
A compromise could be to allow for certain areas to ignore the "toggle" so that people who want themselves to be seen in a certain way can. I.e non-dungeon environments such as cities.
@Skelos I don’t think it’s a matter of being told what to see in Terminus (you have the choice to be in VR’s world or not). It’s a matter of equipping what you want of what they have made to exist. You’ll have to adventure for and earn it. You will have tons of items to explore and choose from. I don’t think being given certain appearances via toggles in such ways fit in the tenets of Pantheon; the toggle concept in Live Classic WoW for example should stay in Classic WoW and the transmog concept in Live BoA/WoW should stay over there in BoA/WoW.
As to your concerns of lag and clutter, I doubt VR is going to “over do it” to where it gets to that point.
We all will be in this immersive world, so we all should be seeing the same things just as VR has designed them to be.
@Syrif I also have a choice where I choose to live physically, which is the U.S., so I have a choice in what environment I choose to live in and what I see, so the U.S. supplies the guardrails. VR supplies the guardrails and I would like to choose what I want to see.
This is a quote from Pantheon's FAQ as of what is published currently:
20.8 "Pantheon is definitely more open world and ‘sandboxy’ than many MMOs, but it is still at its core a game system, not a true sandbox sans rules. But the key point is that you can go where you want to go, take on whatever you want to take on (though you may die trying), and travel to wherever you can see (assuming you don't freeze to death en route). So, the decisions are yours -- you are not being led around by the game on rails, with only so many options or decision points."
Throughout 20.8 you will see "you" mentioned 6 times out of 94 words. I prefer not to have other players tell me what I should see vs what I ("you") want me to see. VR should respect the "you" concept and let people choose how they want to see the game. Be it performance related or not. Instead of having others tell me what I should be seeing, I could prefer to see the truth or the facade, but let me choose.
And @Syrif you also have the choice to be VR's world or not. Everybody wants choices, a toggle is also a choice.
"As to your concerns of lag and clutter, I doubt VR is going to “over do it” to where it gets to that point. " I prefer facts, not conjecture if VR has said raid performances will not be hindered by such things then this should be pointed out. Otherwise, raid performance to me is more important than seeing how somebody is dressed or how many titles that they may have in their name.
VR: Let me choose to look through rose-colored glasses of not.
Skelos said:@Syrif I also have a choice where I choose to live physically, which is the U.S., so I have a choice in what environment I choose to live in and what I see, so the U.S. supplies the guardrails. VR supplies the guardrails and I would like to choose what I want to see.
Everybody wants choices, a toggle is also a choice.
The US is not Terminus and Terminus is not the US. The difference is VR did not develop the US; VR is developing Terminus. Skelos, for example: in the US you can run to market and hypothetically put together a "breastplate of Skelos" if you want to. In Pantheon, VR are the ones developing the breatplates/items etc to appear how they want them to appear - appropriate to the world they are developing. It won't be you nor I developing the possibilities. The char will adventure and loot a breastplate for example, but it will appear how VR has designed it to appear. It will be named as they named it. It will come with base stats just as VR designed it to be. Perhaps it will be able to be enhanced via crafting and questing. But again, neither you nor I are designing crafting and questing in Terminus; VR is. Since it is highly unlikely that you will be able to name your breastplate whatever you want it to be named nor look however you want it to look, why the heck should it appear any differently than how VR developed it to appear? I won't be able to put a candy cane graphic on my breastplate nor will I be able to blow up a rainbowful of balloons and walk through the park in Terminus like how I can in the US; two different worlds.
The choices will be to adventure/work towards and choose between what VR has developed via grouping, raiding, duo, solo attempt, crafting and the like. The toggle ruins the significance of that. Also, the toggle and transmog are iconic changes to the gameplay of both versions of WoW. Pantheon is NOT being designed to be like WoW. Imo it's best to leave the toggle in Classic WoW and leave the transmog in Regular WoW. The world of Pantheon will be quite different from the world of WoW, and that is a good thing. When I literally see ppl write "stop trying to make Pantheon like WoW," I think that really rings true here. If we are to be in an immersive world, then we all need to be seeing the same things that are developed and enhanced just as they are to be in the world. The toggle goes against the tenets. Anyhow, I agree to disagree. Best to move on.
@Syrif You are not getting the point: The point is an individual choice. You are trying to force your decision making an absolute stance on VR thus the community as a whole, instead of letting the individual make that choice for themselves, within the sandbox that VR has supplied.
"The toggle ruins the significance of that." This is your opinion. Not mine. You are trying to force your opinion on me and telling me what I should and should not see. Let me choose what I want to see, based upon the guardrails that VR provides. You toggle yours on, I toggle mine off. Very simple concept.
Have you considered that I may be color blind, thus most games offer a color-blind toggle. Perhaps you would like for that option to be taken away as well? Because I am color-blind I will never be able to see the world as you see it, but yet you want to dictate how I should see the game regardless of personal preference/issues and I will never be able to see your equipment as you intend for me to see it either way.I am not trying to force you to see the game from a color blind perspective, yet you at dictating how I should see the game. Not very cool at all and not open-minded at all. Also, no room for compromise....if you read my original post you will see that I mentioned let the toggle only work in certain areas. Apparently there is not any room for a compromise. Once again, absolute, no freedom of choice.
Skelos said:@Syrif You are not getting the point: The point is an individual choice. You are trying to force your decision making an absolute stance on VR thus the community as a whole, instead of letting the individual make that choice for themselves
Lol I am not forcing a decision on you for that would be impossible, as I am not a dev. Like others, I did state my opposition to toggle and I have responded. Regarding the toggle perspective, what I am saying imo is to stop trying to change the game with some people‘s own versions of their own toggles for their own personal wants. One person may want a “toggle for this” or another wants a “toggle for that.” Leave the appearance toggle out period and have appearances show as the devs designed and intended them to be in this world. If items are altered then that’s from the devs’ questing and crafting systems they have implemented. We are all in the same world and should see the same thing, it’s not Syrif’s world nor Skelos’ world. Again, we will be able to make choices within the realm of what VR has developed. That doesn’t mean I demand VR to give me a toggle for an immense, fire-breathing dragon to float above me at all times just because that’s what I may want to personally see. I could want a toggle for a big blue jewel to appear on my pinky finger. Such notions would be silly ofc. I will have made a choice to be in their world because I want to be, as in the world that VR has designed (not the world of Syrif’s hypothetical toggles).
You also mention being color-blind. I’d imagine there would be a display option for the ones with your health issue, but that’s irrelevant to what I discussed. I am discussing the appearance toggle like ‘hide gloves’ etc and the transmog changing item’s appearance of what was intended. You can reach out to VR for aid regarding your health concerns.
My 2 copperz. Good day to you
What you are doing is lobbying for a game to be created in a fashion that fits what you want instead of what the community wants. What you advocate is absolute what others and myself advocate are choices, which VR has made clear that they want players to have and they have said that have a toggle for this function is easily done.
So, if it is simple then let there be a toggle and let people have their choice, just as VR advocated players having a choice in this world that they create.
Good day to you as well.
Skelos said:Having a toggle allows me not to be forced to see the facade that you want others to see. Thus I have the freedom of choice: see the truth or your facade.
But your choice ruins the choice of the role-player. They want to decide how they are seen by others. To play a role in a role-playing game.
The toggle means they have no idea what others are seeing. Their portrayed role is 50% 'off' (or 99%? 1%? Who knows, and not knowing is the problem) defeating the whole point of the appearance gear.
The toggle also means the bizarre confusion of players seeing two different things looking at the same thing. Bye bye shared experience and hello lots of weird immersion breaking moments.
So, if you accept that your need to see 'the truth' (Why is that again?) isn't more important than a role-player wanting to play a role in a role-playing game, to get back to the OP, who should have control over their image? Them or someone else? Should another player be in control of your appearance? It's a pretty obvious answer.
Especially when you can just /inspect if you really must know 'the truth' (for whatever reason).
And around we go again.