Syrif said:
First, I‘ve never gone by “dude.”
Second, if you are going to quote me, then please quote me correctly. So damn annoying.
Third, if I wanted a World of Warcraft mechanism then I would play World of Warcraft. And Final Fantasy is crappy mainstrean 2.0. Let’s not bring that into Pantheon because mainstream sux.
You quoted my first post on this thread and responded with:
"Once again EZ gameplay is touted just like mainstream - no thanks!"
Seeing that you quoted my post, I think it's fair to assume that you read the contents. Can you explain how you came to the conclusion that I was touting "EZ gameplay" -- the premise of my post was that I was happy about the shift away from easy gameplay and toward something that requires thought and effort. Whether it was intentional or not, you blatantly ignored the underlying message of my post and twisted the narrative to fit your irrational interpretation, the same as Kalok did. You should practice what you preach. As far as Final Fantasy being "crappy mainstream" -- I will agree with you if we're talking about FFXIV. I have been very consistent over the years in saying that FFXIV was an abomination to all of the things that made FFXI great. FFXI was inspired by EQ and was the exact opposite of "mainstream." It was an old school / hardcore / group-focused / community-driven / open-world / challenging MMORPG. If you're going to put #communitymatters at the end of your post you should be more considerate of all the FFXI fans that have made their way to the Pantheon community.
Syrif said:Second, if you are going to quote me, then please quote me correctly. So damn annoying.
Are you trying to imply that he manipulated the text in the quote? He quoted your exact words.
But seriously, can we get some more clarification on the food/water direction, VR? If food/water are going to be treated just as a stupid stat buff in Pantheon as it is in World of Warcraft/FF, then that is going to piss off a lot of people yet again. I’m not speaking for the tiniest minority of ppl who live on this forum. But, I know the community that for the most part is returning here (the VAST majority of whom do not use forums). I’ve known this community for 20 years. Mainstream just doesn‘t go over well with the community.
I look at it this way: If food/drink will provide bonuses and if those bonuses provide tangible benefits to the player, food/drink is still then a requirement to have in your inventory. Regardless if you must actively consume it, regardless if you only use it when needed, it will be something you must carry. Thus, the argument VR presents that food/drink taking up invendory slots is something they want to do away with comes moot.
What did the passive consumpting of food/drink provide in EQ1 beyond the buffs they provided and the health/mana regeneration? It provided a viable marketplace for the cooking tradeskill. People really into tradeskills should be looking at this with a very critical eye because if food/drink are not seen as a necessary item to carry, the market for that tradeskill vanishes. We've seen the threads where tradeskillers want the products to be desired, to be useful, to not be always inferior to that which you can obtain out in the world. Food/drink falls into that.
oneADseven said:Kittik said:This is what I feel they are doing with the removal of "traditional" food and drink mechanic. However, my concern is that taking away the aggrivating boring tedious parts of the game, you'll have a hollow game.
Lots of words...
Don't worry 187 I read it all. And I sincerely hope you are correct, becuase if thats the way they go, then yes, it'll add depth.
Vandraad said:Thus, the argument VR presents that food/drink taking up invendory slots is something they want to do away with comes moot.
This is what Joppa had to say:
"This would be a good opportunity to say that one of the decisions we've made over the last few months is to move away from food and drink as being 'just this passive item' that you need to have in your inventory just to not get hungry and thirsty. It makes sense ... I get it on some levels, but, at the end of the day, when you're sitting and looking at everything and saying ... 'is this fun, is this enjoyable in any way?' ... and it's not. It's just taking up slots ... and it's just not fun. So no longer are you going to need food and drink just to be able to regenerate health and mana ... but we are moving more into that consumable direction where food and drink are going to serve as ways of getting duration based buffs."
Based on the above quote, I don't think the argument is that they want to avoid a situation where food/drink takes up inventory slots. The point was that they didn't want them to be a passive/boring thing. The point is that they want food/drink to be used more like traditional consumables similar to invis pots, levitation pots, or other items that are used with intent and purpose. You actively use these things for a duration-based buff, and in many cases, they are situational. You don't just stock up on traditional consumables for a passive benefit.
Vandraad said:What did the passive consumpting of food/drink provide in EQ1 beyond the buffs they provided and the health/mana regeneration? It provided a viable marketplace for the cooking tradeskill. People really into tradeskills should be looking at this with a very critical eye because if food/drink are not seen as a necessary item to carry, the market for that tradeskill vanishes. We've seen the threads where tradeskillers want the products to be desired, to be useful, to not be always inferior to that which you can obtain out in the world. Food/drink falls into that.
As someone who has never really cared too much about crafting, I have definitely taken a critical eye to this. In the end, this shift has garnered my interest enough to where I would seriously consider leveling up a provisioner in Pantheon. The market for food/drink isn't going to vanish ... it's going to blossom into something far greater. This is because food/drink will be viewed as a luxury item that players will always want to maintain a supply of, and one that will most likely be exclusive to player crafting. If food/drink are removed from vendors then players will have no choice but to purchase these consumables from other players. The good news is that food/drink can definitely be removed from vendors because they aren't being tied into a shallow survival game mechanic that wasn't even being properly realized to begin with. Everything about this decision is aligned with the overarching goals that Pantheon has always had. Crafters should be rejoicing. Folks who enjoy player-to-player interaction should be thrilled. People who want to see a player-driven economy realized as much as possible should be thrilled.
Vandraad said:I look at it this way: If food/drink will provide bonuses and if those bonuses provide tangible benefits to the player, food/drink is still then a requirement to have in your inventory. Regardless if you must actively consume it, regardless if you only use it when needed, it will be something you must carry. Thus, the argument VR presents that food/drink taking up invendory slots is something they want to do away with comes moot.
What did the passive consumpting of food/drink provide in EQ1 beyond the buffs they provided and the health/mana regeneration? It provided a viable marketplace for the cooking tradeskill. People really into tradeskills should be looking at this with a very critical eye because if food/drink are not seen as a necessary item to carry, the market for that tradeskill vanishes. We've seen the threads where tradeskillers want the products to be desired, to be useful, to not be always inferior to that which you can obtain out in the world. Food/drink falls into that.
This is an awesome post. You make yet another very good point on why food/water should be necessary. I do not understand why a tradeskiller would not want food/water to be equipped. Furthermore, it is odd to see a few people here on forums tout tradeskilling non-stop, and then say they don’t want food/water to be necessary to have equipped. Umm?? :/ Lol.
I'm not saying their shouldn't be food and drink but to make it feel mandatory like eq had it feels pretty bad, you basically did nothing with it, it just sat it your inventory space collecting dust sometimes for weeks if you bought enough, so why even bother with it if you can simply trivialize the effect it trying to accompolish , and without giving it something else to benefit you in return other than the simple "it gives you health and mana regen." Statement is a really weak reasoning if it doesn't give me something else
oneADseven said:Vandraad said:Thus, the argument VR presents that food/drink taking up invendory slots is something they want to do away with comes moot.
This is what Joppa had to say:
"This would be a good opportunity to say that one of the decisions we've made over the last few months is to move away from food and drink as being 'just this passive item' that you need to have in your inventory just to not get hungry and thirsty. It makes sense ... I get it on some levels, but, at the end of the day, when you're sitting and looking at everything and saying ... 'is this fun, is this enjoyable in any way?' ... and it's not. It's just taking up slots ... and it's just not fun. So no longer are you going to need food and drink just to be able to regenerate health and mana ... but we are moving more into that consumable direction where food and drink are going to serve as ways of getting duration based buffs."
Based on the above quote, I don't think the argument is that they want to avoid a situation where food/drink takes up inventory slots. The point was that they didn't want them to be a passive/boring thing. The point is that they want food/drink to be used more like traditional consumables similar to invis pots, levitation pots, or other items that are used with intent and purpose. You actively use these things for a duration-based buff, and in many cases, they are situational. You don't just stock up on traditional consumables for a passive benefit.
Vandraad said:What did the passive consumpting of food/drink provide in EQ1 beyond the buffs they provided and the health/mana regeneration? It provided a viable marketplace for the cooking tradeskill. People really into tradeskills should be looking at this with a very critical eye because if food/drink are not seen as a necessary item to carry, the market for that tradeskill vanishes. We've seen the threads where tradeskillers want the products to be desired, to be useful, to not be always inferior to that which you can obtain out in the world. Food/drink falls into that.
As someone who has never really cared too much about crafting, I have definitely taken a critical eye to this. In the end, this shift has garnered my interest enough to where I would seriously consider leveling up a provisioner in Pantheon. The market for food/drink isn't going to vanish ... it's going to blossom into something far greater. This is because food/drink will be viewed as a luxury item that players will always want to maintain a supply of, and one that will most likely be exclusive to player crafting. If food/drink are removed from vendors then players will have no choice but to purchase these consumables from other players. The good news is that food/drink can definitely be removed from vendors because they aren't being tied into a shallow survival game mechanic that wasn't even being properly realized to begin with. Everything about this decision is aligned with the overarching goals that Pantheon has always had. Crafters should be rejoicing. Folks who enjoy player-to-player interaction should be thrilled. People who want to see a player-driven economy realized as much as possible should be thrilled.
That “luxury” item you mention won’t work just like it doesn’t work in mainstream. How about let’s go with what we’ve learned over the past 20+ years instead of repeating what’s clearly wrong with mainstream.
Syrif said:oneADseven said:Vandraad said:Thus, the argument VR presents that food/drink taking up invendory slots is something they want to do away with comes moot.
This is what Joppa had to say:
"This would be a good opportunity to say that one of the decisions we've made over the last few months is to move away from food and drink as being 'just this passive item' that you need to have in your inventory just to not get hungry and thirsty. It makes sense ... I get it on some levels, but, at the end of the day, when you're sitting and looking at everything and saying ... 'is this fun, is this enjoyable in any way?' ... and it's not. It's just taking up slots ... and it's just not fun. So no longer are you going to need food and drink just to be able to regenerate health and mana ... but we are moving more into that consumable direction where food and drink are going to serve as ways of getting duration based buffs."
Based on the above quote, I don't think the argument is that they want to avoid a situation where food/drink takes up inventory slots. The point was that they didn't want them to be a passive/boring thing. The point is that they want food/drink to be used more like traditional consumables similar to invis pots, levitation pots, or other items that are used with intent and purpose. You actively use these things for a duration-based buff, and in many cases, they are situational. You don't just stock up on traditional consumables for a passive benefit.
Vandraad said:What did the passive consumpting of food/drink provide in EQ1 beyond the buffs they provided and the health/mana regeneration? It provided a viable marketplace for the cooking tradeskill. People really into tradeskills should be looking at this with a very critical eye because if food/drink are not seen as a necessary item to carry, the market for that tradeskill vanishes. We've seen the threads where tradeskillers want the products to be desired, to be useful, to not be always inferior to that which you can obtain out in the world. Food/drink falls into that.
As someone who has never really cared too much about crafting, I have definitely taken a critical eye to this. In the end, this shift has garnered my interest enough to where I would seriously consider leveling up a provisioner in Pantheon. The market for food/drink isn't going to vanish ... it's going to blossom into something far greater. This is because food/drink will be viewed as a luxury item that players will always want to maintain a supply of, and one that will most likely be exclusive to player crafting. If food/drink are removed from vendors then players will have no choice but to purchase these consumables from other players. The good news is that food/drink can definitely be removed from vendors because they aren't being tied into a shallow survival game mechanic that wasn't even being properly realized to begin with. Everything about this decision is aligned with the overarching goals that Pantheon has always had. Crafters should be rejoicing. Folks who enjoy player-to-player interaction should be thrilled. People who want to see a player-driven economy realized as much as possible should be thrilled.
That “luxury” item you mention won’t work just like it doesn’t work in mainstream. How about let’s go with what we’ve learned over the past 20+ years instead of repeating what’s clearly wrong with mainstream.
The way I read it if anything this will make the cooking tradeskills even stronger, look at it this way in WoW cooking items that give no stats is basically vendor trash, only the ones with buffs actually sell at a successful rate and with any kind of income to talk about, so if all food/drink give buffs than all will have a purpose and therefore the tradeskill will become stronger
bdo has luxury food items.
technically it's not mandatory, but if i'm pvping another player that is using the food buff(which gives really good stats 5 to 10% difference approx) i'm going to be at a significant disadvantage if i'm not.
wow food buffs were super marginal maybe giving less than 1% damage difference.
the big part is with bdo, the luxury items are not easy to make and it is only supplied by the players.
it's not like i'd want to just stack the items because they aren't cheap.
bdo has a pretty good player driven economy(although it's heavily regulated with taxes and non p2p trading virtually-prevents gold farmers which are nonexistent in the game)
vr should be taking notes from the bdo crafting system cough cough.
Sure hope if things go this route of powerful (and honestly, socially mandatory) consumables that there is a heavy tax for each one made via materials only obtained from NPCs. Really sucks when games turn everyone into gold farmers so they can keep up in their week to week gameplay, especially when all/most of that generated currency never really leaves the economy and only changes player hands. It also skews the value of various professions towards those that make consumables, and endlessly recurring source of revenue.
Iksar said:Sure hope if things go this route of powerful (and honestly, socially mandatory) consumables that there is a heavy tax for each one made via materials only obtained from NPCs. Really sucks when games turn everyone into gold farmers so they can keep up in their week to week gameplay, especially when all/most of that generated currency never really leaves the economy and only changes player hands. It also skews the value of various professions towards those that make consumables, and endlessly recurring source of revenue.
it'll be fine. i mean if ya don't craft, then it shouldn't even be of concern. it is really nice as a crafter when my goods are needed. here take this elixir of calming. it'll give you plus 3 to charisma allowing you to express yourself :D
in a bind? have a free action potion and get out of the mess that life has thrown atcha.
want your crush to fall in love with you? sorry there's no potion for that, but here's some b14 draught that'll improve your consitution for that heartbreak or heartattack you are about to have. now go out there and pop that question! remember to say senpai at the end ;)
oneADseven said:Vandraad said:Thus, the argument VR presents that food/drink taking up invendory slots is something they want to do away with comes moot.
This is what Joppa had to say:
"This would be a good opportunity to say that one of the decisions we've made over the last few months is to move away from food and drink as being 'just this passive item' that you need to have in your inventory just to not get hungry and thirsty. It makes sense ... I get it on some levels, but, at the end of the day, when you're sitting and looking at everything and saying ... 'is this fun, is this enjoyable in any way?' ... and it's not. It's just taking up slots ... and it's just not fun. So no longer are you going to need food and drink just to be able to regenerate health and mana ... but we are moving more into that consumable direction where food and drink are going to serve as ways of getting duration based buffs."
Based on the above quote, I don't think the argument is that they want to avoid a situation where food/drink takes up inventory slots. The point was that they didn't want them to be a passive/boring thing. The point is that they want food/drink to be used more like traditional consumables similar to invis pots, levitation pots, or other items that are used with intent and purpose. You actively use these things for a duration-based buff, and in many cases, they are situational. You don't just stock up on traditional consumables for a passive benefit.
I think you and I were understanding him quite the same, There wanting to do something different. So I really don't understand all the talk in this thread about all the same mechanics that are already out there. A possible scenario I have been rolling arround...
Ano alcoholic drink Fire Water, the Wizard takes a shot and gets a short (secounds) timed bonus to Fire based spells. (He also becomes closer to being drunk based on his Alcohol Tolerance, assuming that's a thing) he then cast a fire based spell, probably after he also has the Fire based buff stacked 3x. This Fire Water being reusable as often as his Alcohol Tolerance can support it, use it too often and he starts misfiring.
Maybe add in something like a coffee drink that could help with Cold based spells and also help counter the Alcohol effect.
VR, is talking about improving the food/drink mechanic, Not adopting one that's already out there. Think outside the box people!
@Zorkon I agree that thinking outside the box is important. You mention some good ideas. :) Anyway, I also think that as long as the food/water mechanism is NOT remotely like World of Warcraft & Final Fantasy (mainstream), then Pantheon will be much, much, much better off. Afterall, World of Warcraft and Final Fanstasy are unbelievably lame for too many reasons.
Zorkon said:Ano alcoholic drink Fire Water, the Wizard takes a shot and gets a short (secounds) timed bonus to Fire based spells. (He also becomes closer to being drunk based on his Alcohol Tolerance, assuming that's a thing) he then cast a fire based spell, probably after he also has the Fire based buff stacked 3x. This Fire Water being reusable as often as his Alcohol Tolerance can support it, use it too often and he starts misfiring.
I think something like this (buffs measured in seconds rather than 15-300 minutes) makes sense when it comes to short-duration potions which would likely fall under alchemy. I could see some fun exceptions when it comes to alcoholic beverages, similar to what you describe. As far as traditional food/drink goes, I think they will likely have a longer duration and still mostly act as a "passive buff." The difference, though, is that the scope of these buffs will probably be pretty large, and certain food/drink could offer enhanced effects depending on race/class or other variables. They could affect stats, resists, perception, movement speed, regeneration, acclimation, accuracy, evasion, critical strike chance, etc. Additionally ... since they would all be coming from a player-driven market, with a higher value intact, players would be more selective with how/when they are applied. I think this philosophy fits in nicely with the "situational gear" differentiator:
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
Syrif said:But seriously, can we get some more clarification on the food/water direction, VR? If food/water are going to be treated just as a stupid stat buff in Pantheon as it is in World of Warcraft/FF, then that is going to piss off a lot of people yet again. I’m not speaking for the tiniest minority of ppl who live on this forum. But, I know the community that for the most part is returning here (the VAST majority of whom do not use forums). I’ve known this community for 20 years. Mainstream just doesn‘t go over well with the community.
Yeah, a lot of good names disappeared on the forums...but it's usually the same like 6 or 7 names I see over and over again take over the discussion and all agree with each other. Lol. But that is how it goes. Make too many small changes and it turns into a big problem and a lot of people left the forums because of it.
Watemper said:Syrif said:But seriously, can we get some more clarification on the food/water direction, VR? If food/water are going to be treated just as a stupid stat buff in Pantheon as it is in World of Warcraft/FF, then that is going to piss off a lot of people yet again. I’m not speaking for the tiniest minority of ppl who live on this forum. But, I know the community that for the most part is returning here (the VAST majority of whom do not use forums). I’ve known this community for 20 years. Mainstream just doesn‘t go over well with the community.
Yeah, a lot of good names disappeared on the forums...but it's usually the same like 6 or 7 names I see over and over again take over the discussion and all agree with each other. Lol. But that is how it goes. Make too many small changes and it turns into a big problem and a lot of people left the forums because of it.
omg... this community is a bunch of hipsters.
cool i got these nice organic elixirs for sale, guranteed to help prolong life, protects you against the nasty gmo food that the npcs have :D support your local drug dealer, i mean, pharmacist ^.^
Watemper said:@stellarmind
What? lol
this community is anti mainstream according to syrif.
antimainstream means you're a hipster.
hipsters like organic stuff since gmo stuff is mainstream(cough cough wow).
hipsters also tend to support local businesses or ones they trust anyways.
come on up to stellar organic drug- i mean, potions, elixirs and draughts for your adventuring needs :D
unlike those dirty npc potions sellers using gmc (genetically manipulated coding) with base stats and endless supply, we here still gathering our reagents from the wild with actual PLAYERS! LIMITED edition supply offering the highest stat boosts for those 'clutch' moments where you can't just perform, and i'm not talking about the bedroom ;D
Watemper said:Syrif said:But seriously, can we get some more clarification on the food/water direction, VR? If food/water are going to be treated just as a stupid stat buff in Pantheon as it is in World of Warcraft/FF, then that is going to piss off a lot of people yet again. I’m not speaking for the tiniest minority of ppl who live on this forum. But, I know the community that for the most part is returning here (the VAST majority of whom do not use forums). I’ve known this community for 20 years. Mainstream just doesn‘t go over well with the community.
Yeah, a lot of good names disappeared on the forums...but it's usually the same like 6 or 7 names I see over and over again take over the discussion and all agree with each other. Lol. But that is how it goes. Make too many small changes and it turns into a big problem and a lot of people left the forums because of it.
I think you are right. It is disappointing. Well, here’s to hoping VR comes to their senses in hopes of Pantheon being the alternative to the market.
stellarmind said:Watemper said:@stellarmind
What? lol
this community is anti mainstream according to syrif.
antimainstream means you're a hipster.
hipsters like organic stuff since gmo stuff is mainstream(cough cough wow).
hipsters also tend to support local businesses or ones they trust anyways.
come on up to stellar organic drug- i mean, potions, elixirs and draughts for your adventuring needs :D
unlike those dirty npc potions sellers using gmc (genetically manipulated coding) with base stats and endless supply, we here still gathering our reagents from the wild with actual PLAYERS! LIMITED edition supply offering the highest stat boosts for those 'clutch' moments where you can't just perform, and i'm not talking about the bedroom ;D
Like!
Err, I mean I Like
kreed99 said: I just want food and drink to be more than just a slot taken up and forgotten about. But i dont want to go full survival mode where you spend a lot of wasted time worrying about food. I hope they stick with the meaningful choices ideology and make them useful player-made consumables. It does make me hopeful to hear they want to make food and water better than it has been.
Slots are irrelevant, that problem is as easy to solve as adding a Food and a Drink slot in the UI just like an Ammo slot or a Breastplate slot.