How about this - isn't it a bit lame to eat or drink something after most fights? Sit down and pull out some bread and milk after every fight? I suppose keeping food could provide greater passive regen, and we wouldnt need to click-eat it. So the only difference from EQ's system, then, would be food enhances passive regen instead of activates it? That'd be fine!
Does anyone else think sitting down and chomping away after most fights is a bit lame? Maybe that's not what VR intends. But that was the WoW way.
Btw - guys, food was not "logistics" in EQ. It was hardly an issue, never a real problem. People would always give a piece or three if we ran out - this was simply not the "survival" issue as several posters here describe it.
Alexander said:How about this - isn't it a bit lame to eat or drink something after most fights? Sit down and pull out some bread and milk after every fight? I suppose keeping food could provide greater passive regen, and we wouldnt need to click-eat it. So the only difference from EQ's system, then, would be food enhances passive regen instead of activates it? That'd be fine!
Does anyone else think sitting down and chomping away after most fights is a bit lame? Maybe that's not what VR intends. But that was the WoW way.
Btw - guys, food was not "logistics" in EQ. It was hardly an issue, never a real problem. People would always give a piece or three if we ran out - this was simply not the "survival" issue as several posters here describe it.
Exactly! Just an awesome post. Thank you for saying it better than I could. Food just wasn’t an issue, and I sure as heck do not want it like WoW here!
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Syrif said:Alexander said:Btw - guys, food was not "logistics" in EQ. It was hardly an issue, never a real problem. People would always give a piece or three if we ran out - this was simply not the "survival" issue as several posters here describe it.
Exactly! Just an awesome post. Thank you for saying it better than I could. Food just wasn’t an issue and I sure as heck do not want it like WoW here!
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He was talking about EQ with that comment. The problem with praising every other post that mentions EQ in a positive light (or paints WoW in a negative light) as brilliant/awesome/amazing is that you eventually get caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Will his post be perceived as less awesome after this realization settles in? Or maybe you agree with him in principle but accept that most folks sure as heck don't want it like EQ here, either? Where food isn't an issue, isn't a real problem, isn't a survival mechanic that requires logistics like people have been claiming, isn't fun, isn't challenging ... is boring, is tedious, is lame, is trivial?
oneADseven said:Syrif said:Alexander said:Btw - guys, food was not "logistics" in EQ. It was hardly an issue, never a real problem. People would always give a piece or three if we ran out - this was simply not the "survival" issue as several posters here describe it.
Exactly! Just an awesome post. Thank you for saying it better than I could. Food just wasn’t an issue, and I sure as heck do not want it like WoW here!
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels
He was talking about EQ with that comment. The problem with praising every other post that mentions EQ in a positive light (or paints WoW in a negative light) as brilliant/awesome/amazing is that you eventually get caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Will his post be perceived as less awesome after this realization settles in? Or maybe you agree with him in principle but accept that most folks sure as heck don't want it like EQ here, either? Where food isn't an issue, isn't a real problem, isn't a survival mechanic that requires logistics like people have been claiming, isn't fun, isn't challenging ... is boring, is tedious, is lame, is trivial?
What the hell are you talking about? Stop trying to change what I write - please. I obviously know he was talking about EQ, and I agreed with him. I just added that I don’t want a mechanism like WoW here. Responding to you gets old, but if you are going to quote my response to Alexander praising his point, then at least get that straight. Maybe you realize that a lot of people don’t want it like Final Fantasy and Online Adventures either. Yeah let’s not act like the masterminds of this game didn’t play and/or make Classic EQ. Don’t be surprised by the mention of it from people. I am not going to argue with you. That’s all “1AD7.” Cheers.
Syrif said:What the hell are you talking about? I obviously know he was talking about EQ, and I agreed with him. I just added that I don’t want a mechanism like WoW here. Responding to you gets old, but if you are going to quote my response to Alexander praising his point, then at least get that straight. Maybe you realize that a lot of people don’t want it like Final Fantasy and Online Adventures either. Yeah let’s not act like the masterminds of this game didn’t play and/or make Classic EQ. Don’t be surprised by the mention of it from people. I am not going to argue with you. That’s all “1AD7.” Cheers.
So you edit your post after someone calls you out for hypocrisy, and then call foul play? That's twice on one thread. (You accused Disposalist for misquoting you a few pages back ... after editing the original version that was quoted, in context.) Cheers Syrif.
Syrif said:Stop trying to change what I write - please.
I can't do that. You are the one that has changed it three times now to try and get your story straight. Whatever you say man.
oneADseven said:Syrif said:What the hell are you talking about? I obviously know he was talking about EQ, and I agreed with him. I just added that I don’t want a mechanism like WoW here. Responding to you gets old, but if you are going to quote my response to Alexander praising his point, then at least get that straight. Maybe you realize that a lot of people don’t want it like Final Fantasy and Online Adventures either. Yeah let’s not act like the masterminds of this game didn’t play and/or make Classic EQ. Don’t be surprised by the mention of it from people. I am not going to argue with you. That’s all “1AD7.” Cheers.
So you edit your post after someone calls you out for hypocrisy, and then call foul play? That's twice on one thread. (You accused Disposalist for misquoting you a few pages back ... after editing the original version that was quoted, in context.) Cheers Syrif.
Syrif said:Stop trying to change what I write - please.
I can't do that. You are the one that has changed it three times now to try and get your story straight. Whatever you say man.
LOL! I changed it since you were apparently having such a hard time understanding what I was saying. Lol and now to your other accusation of me: I changed it back just now to how it was originally written, just as you quoted me before it was changed for your clarification lol. You are just trying to argue I guess? I don‘t get it, but my post is back to original. Hopefully by now you understand what I meant. Lol Cheers.
Add: As to your third accusation of me, Dispo had quoted me before I edited my post to how I wanted it to read. I don’t sit in front of a computer all day, I have a phone too. Too funny.
Syrif said:Add: As to your third accusation of me, Dispo had quoted me before I edited my post to how I wanted it to read. I don’t sit in front of a computer all day, I have a phone too. :)
This is understandable. You know what isn't? This reaction:
Syrif said:Second, if you are going to quote me, then please quote me correctly. So damn annoying.
He didn't quote you incorrectly. I understand that you had second thoughts on the message being conveyed and that you wanted it to be read differently, but how is that his fault? He asked you plenty of relevant questions (particularly those related to your underlying motives) and instead of ponying up, you chose to deflect and accuse him of misquoting you. Furthermore ... if you read your response to him, and then consider the tone of that response, your deflection seemed to imply that his questions were out of line. He asked:
disposalist said:Please don't take this as an attack, but, dude, come on: Anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion of the traditional food/drink prep thing is "touting of EZ gameplay"?
Shall I follow your precedent and say: Can we please stop it with the touting of boring, unnecessary gameplay already? I know I am here because I do NOT want a game like mainstream, but neither do I want an exact clone of EQ/VG, especially the bits that were tedious even in 1999?
But I wouldn't say that, because that would be insulting anyone who happens to like the whole food/drink buying thing.
How about: Can we please stop with the dismissing and disrespecting of others' opinions as if they are somehow objectively 'wrong', 'stupid' or even somehow 'dangerous'?
Or: Can we please stop acting like our own interpretation of old-school MMORPGs, or indeed the fantasy genre, is perfect and any deviation by others is like they are morally corrupt and responsible for the destruction of the genre and the universe or something?
That was in response to this part of your message that was later erased:
"As to some of the others on this thread: can we please stop it with the touting of EZ gameplay already?? I know I am here because I do NOT want a game like mainstream."
So just to be clear here ... you considered his response/quote to be "damn annoying" because it was based on a message that you later erased after realizing it wasn't appropriate? Got it. As far as me wanting to argue ... you have accused me of being dead wrong and engaged in contextomy several times throughout this thread. More than anything I have been trying to understand the consistency in your logic and this most recent post in question (where you agreed with someone who basically said that EQ food wasn't an issue/problem that required meaningful preparation or logistics) -- it was so out of character for you that I had to do a double-take. It just didn't make sense considering this previous tangent that seemed to suggest that required food/water had a significant risk/reward impact in classic EQ:
"Newsflash: you know what Classic did have? Classic had food/water equipped as necessary for normal regen. But, but all those games now don’t have it. But, but food/water as only another luxury buff. Why not have riskvsreward? Meh, it’s not needed. Gimme my glowing sword NOW!! Why not have a death penalty with exp loss and corpse recovery? Because it’s too hawd. Why not have a group? Because what’s a groupy thingy. Why have an extensive faction system with penalties alongside achievements that require thought, work, and strategy? Wait; I am telling on you."
In any event, I'm glad that we finally agree on something! It took a while to sort through all of that and make sense of everything but cheers to Pantheon for hopefully overcoming the shortcomings of both WoW and Classic Everquest.
1AD7: Not worth my time to respond to your latest round of accusations. I stand by everything that I wrote. Yes, there is an “edit” button and I will delete stuff if it sounds repetitive in a thread. Get over it. Dispo is cool for all I care, I don’t have the problem.. You know what actually is annoying though? The “1AD7 Forum Police.” Keep scouting accusations. Not responding to this nonsense again lol. Best of luck ~
Forum police? I am genuinely curious about why you thought Alexander's post was so amazing, how he said it even better than you could. The context of his message wasn't all that much different from what I posted several pages ago where you said I was dead wrong ... where you suggested that I was advocating for a type of gameplay that was contrary to the vision of the game. Remember?
Syrif said:Kalok said:oneADseven said:I'm quite happy about the direction they are going with food/drink. Instead of players needing to maintain a stock of each so that their characters can function normally (regenerate HP/Mana) they will instead be used as more of a traditional consumable that provides durational buffs.
So, what you're saying is that you don't like having to plan to go adventuring. You just like to set off and not have to maintain even the basics of your toon. Just go and get 'phat lewtz'. To me, that takes away from the "I belong in the world" aspect of the game. You should "suffer" penalties for not providing basic upkeep for your toon. Food and drink is basic upkeep. But then, you probably don't want encumberance either.
Yep, I agree with you Kalok. It is disappointing to see a handful of people now on these forums who repeatedly advocate for that type of gameplay. It's ironic because it is contrary to the vision of what Pantheon started out to be. I thought Pantheon was supposed to be something different from the mainstream mmorpg's. This is another area where I believe oneADseven is dead wrong. Anyway, I sure hope VR moves away from all that and realizes that the VAST majority of people interested in Pantheon (who are fed up with mainstream) do not post on forums.
It's just interesting because you purposely/manually cut out this part of my quote:
"This creates a dynamic where consuming food/drink is more tactical and weighty. They won't need to put stale bread and water on every other merchant in the world because they aren't required for basic functionality. They become more of a luxury item that provokes thought prior to consuming them. Instead of having food/drink being this mega-accessible thing on merchants all over the world, I imagine most/all of it will come from crafting. When I think of how this makes the game more fun, the benefits are numerous. Dying with an expensive food/drink buff adds another layer to the death penalty. If food and drink are mostly player-crafted, that will also help realize a player-driven economy. Food/Drink will still be used as an integral part of preparation ... they are just changing the dynamic from "stock up on stuff from an NPC merchant that gets auto-consumed for the next XX hours" to "there are a wide range of situational buffs that can be leveraged, all coming from different recipes, that require different ingredients (harvested or dropped from an NPC) -- use them tactically because they probably won't be cheap." Two thumbs way up from me."
It makes sense that you would remove that part of my quote because it contradicted everything you were trying to say about me. If you don't want to deal with the 1AD7 forum police then please stop quoting me and manipulating what I say to try and fit your agenda. I have zero desire to engage you on this forum again, and that will become a pleasant reality for both of us as long as you stop twisting what I say in an effort to downplay/butcher my intentions. It's extra annoying (the hypocrisy) when you make a fuss about people misquoting you (when they didn't) but think it's perfectly okay to repeatedly do it to others.
stellarmind said:ohh combining the espresso and milk:
item: warm chocolate nythirian red cafe au lait
type: luxury player craft drink
consume: 10+ to pressure and cold acclimation. 5mp5, 5hp5, 5sp5 for 30 mins(maybe an hour this is a luxury item)
the dark myr fancy drinking liquids as a breathe of air for us humans. this breathe reminds them of their beloved god of war.
-reignfall dark myr enthusiast
Something tells me you are making a Dark Myr Stellar :)
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I think people are more interested in the shortcomings of WoW and Final Fantasy for example (mainstream). Classic EQ was much different from those games, but there is plenty to expand on from old school - inspiration. I suppose when it comes down to it, I’d rather Pantheon have something new that is inspired from oldschool rather than food/water similar to mainstream. I think Pantheon moving away from mainstream is what will ultimately make it appealing.
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shuk said: I wouldn't mind a Monster Hunter style take. Neat little animations of you chowing down on selected items before going out at the dining area. Certainly would make taverns potentially more useful, immersive, and less dead space. Give players the ability to setup mobile camps and eat meals there, etc. Make certain foods like "snacks" with smaller bonuses, but girls the big bonus meals you got to go to a camp or establishment.
That would be good, yeah. I can't imagine *all* food/drink should need that, but, yeah, there could be a lot of foods and drinks, especially the more magical ones, that might well not be transportable or storable for whatever reason in their final eatable or drinkable form.
It would be interesting if the higher the tier of food/drink the more preparation was needed at consumption time.
Campfires, kitchens, alchemy tables, spells to activate, mixtures that might explode, etc. Maybe some you can't consume unless you are physically with the crafter?
Good thinking.
Yes, I would think food/water for adventuring is highly necessary, adding to the need and importance of getting consumables from the summoner, merchant, and tradeskiller.
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Let's agree having an eating animation after most fights is the wrong direction, mm? So we can officially add it to our charter.
Thanks Syrif!
Most potions contain water so I imagine after drinking let's say one HP/MP potion per fight character would be well hydrated. In my opinion devs should limit ammount of fluids (and food) that character is able to drink/consume per day - bodies have limits how much they cn take after all ;)
Hegenox said:Most potions contain water so I imagine after drinking let's say one HP/MP potion per fight character would be well hydrated. In my opinion devs should limit ammount of fluids (and food) that character is able to drink/consume per day - bodies have limits how much they cn take after all ;)
Well for Humans anyway but we have magic so dont let RL get into the game , but to have mechanics for diffrent reasons can be good for the game .
Ex
Dwarfs and Ogres get more bags space as theycan carry more the then other races ...... so lets not go there ( but would love it as my main is a Dwarf)
There are distinct features we are talking about:
1. Foraged/dropped/purchased non-stat food and drink - baseline regen effects, only necessary due to hunger and thirst mechanics, duration not shown in UI
2. Crafted/purchased stat food and drink - varying duration and buf effects, duration shown in UI
3. Temporary HP/mana regen rate boosting consumables - WoW has them, EQ didn't to enforce downtime and resource management
A. Auto-consume - automatically consuming a topmost-in-inventory food or drink unit when no active buf (non-stat units like Water or Iron Rations may not display a buf or timer but it is there internally)
B. Hunger effect - when no food unit is active and none left to auto-consume in inventory, reduces base HP regen to 0 after some grace delay
C. Thirst effect - when no drink unit is active and none left to auto-consume in inventory, reduces base mana regen to 0 after some grace delay
(1) only necessary due to (B) and (C) to prevent HP and/or mana regen dropping to 0
(2) is needed regardless of other features, provides another dimension on crafting interdependence, stat improvement, economic sink
(A) optional due to (B) and (C) as a convenience
(3) is part of a gameplay philosophy of minimal downtime, quite unlike EQ's model
Suggestion
Remove hunger and thirst mechanisms, so you can also:
- remove (1) no-stat food and drink
- remove or at least make a configurable setting (A) auto-consume - many would disable this often so as not to consume stats food or drink needlessly
Keep IN stat food and drink - it helps foster interdependence in crafting, economic sinks, general gameplay planning and complexity, character variety
Keep OUT temp regen food and drink (so you cannot just sit a few seconds and fill your HP or mana bars), as it makes all sorts of inter-related game play irrelevent - it de-emphasizes group coordination, resource management, importance of stats food and drink long-term bufs, class interdependent skills like healiing, regen bufs, self-mechanics like Canni, shared-mechanics like Twitching, etc. At last make these types of items not cheap consumables that everyone just carries around and uses when out-of-combat after every fight like WoW enables; only special or expensive ones for emergency use, or very special effects on rare/epic items.
Here is my take on the Food & Drink. I will just use one foor item as an example.
Jalapano vegtable stew
Jalapano- +10 to cold
Vegtables mix and match to achieve affect, but do not add to much or to little.
potato- +1 to str
carrots- +1 to see inv
peas- +1 to wis
ect---
Water- +5 mpr & 5 hpr
Buff 20 min
This would be a item you would use for cold acclimation, but the items come from a warm climate. They would be needed to aquire and made befor you enter a Cool acclimation area. these would also be the basic level items needed. So in your adventuring you fine better vegetables, peppers and Fluids. IE you find the "Well of Blessing" thats gives you +5 to all stats when used in Recipes but you can only get a limited supply from the well daily per account.
As a crafter you can see by saleing them in a cold acclimation area you could make a nice profit as being a rare item and the work needed to get them the most needed area. to make the most profit you decide to you also refurbish some ruins beside the trail to be able to add a vendor to the site to sell 24/7.
I know I have strayed a bit but I think you can see where I was going/
I love love love love love love....LOVE the food and drink aspect to MMO's. I absolutely love CREATING food. The EQ system was quietly brilliant. Creature mobs dropped meats. Sure it was garbage to some, but to me, it created nourishment. You could make stat based food with it. I would collect all I could, then make some for friends so it was social as well. I think the pivot points revolves around how long should it last? I think a tiered system of the food / drink itself could alleviate it. Higher end meals and drink would cost more, but last a lot longer (if you chose to buy it, instead of make it).
Anyone know what out of combat regen will look like?
It would have to be moderately high to avoid "needing" some sort of nourishment inbetween every pull. If the content even sniffs the difficulty that they suggest it will, mana and health pools won't stay anywhere near 100% as you farm/clear pull after pull.
I don't have the answers but agree with many in this thread and VR - that drinking/eating to stay alive is tedius and not fun. Drinking/eating after every single pull is also a bit extreme. Curious to see how the food/drink buffs and regen will be implemented to say the least.
Kass said:Anyone know what out of combat regen will look like?
It would have to be moderately high to avoid "needing" some sort of nourishment inbetween every pull. If the content even sniffs the difficulty that they suggest it will, mana and health pools won't stay anywhere near 100% as you farm/clear pull after pull.
I don't have the answers but agree with many in this thread and VR - that drinking/eating to stay alive is tedius and not fun. Drinking/eating after every single pull is also a bit extreme. Curious to see how the food/drink buffs and regen will be implemented to say the least.
You can see the current state of combat/out of combat regen in pretty much every Cohhcarnage Pantheon stream like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi8Cq9nQV-E
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Hot Topic - Food and Drink is out! What are your thoughts on this? https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/11271/food-and-drink-is-out #MMORPG #CommunityMatters