Grimix said: As a main cook in ffxi, I'm happy to see VR make a change. Instead of people buying cheapy vendor food to get by, they buy my wares to excell!
While I haven’t heard much good about Final Fantasy, it is certain that having food/water as necessary for being equipped in Pantheon is good for you as a cook! :) Let‘s get food/water as necessary for adventuring right here in Pantheon, especially since such a food/water mechanism is absent from current mmorpg‘s.
@Grimix I suppose my “perspective” is I don’t want food/water like mainstream (WoW etc). Obviously, I am here because the makers of Pantheon made and/or played the Classic game that I played. As to how they proceed, we all shall see, as we all are watching very, very closely. Final Fantasy never interested me and I didn’t hear good things about those games. That aside, you being a cook.. what exactly is your perspective on how food/water should be needed in Pantheon? You brought up 187 - I haven’t really followed (no offense). You do mention some interesting ideas here, and I am more curious what your perspective is about food being desired and needed as a cook. Thanks for sharing.
Kittik said:corpserunner said:My favorite games are ones that require resource management. Serious management.
This is also what I really enjoy. It add's additional demensions to the game.
That’s a good way of seeing it Kittik. I think serious resource management has been absent in mmorpg’s for a while now. Resource management imo does need to be one of the highest priorities for Pantheon-development, this includes things such as challenging reagents, food/water, strategic regen etc.
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Ah, I was referring to serious resource management. I don’t think anything about WoW has challenge and depth though, but that’s my opinion.
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As with most of my suggestions, I would suggest options. Some suggestions....
1. A food and a Drink slot that passively eats/drinks whatever is in the slot after a period of time and prevents bad things like damage taken and possibly even death from starvation/thirst.
2. Foods give temporary buffs when eaten and drank. Buffs could scale with quality/level of the consumable and duration could be based on ingredients or whatever.
3. Gourmet skill that could be levelled by eating a variety of foods and drinks.
4. Food and drink as trade craft to gain currency, faction, favor or whatever else
5. Food and drink could be used in spellcasting, rituals, runemaking or whatever
6. Food and drink that has to be used manually every so often as an anti macroing thing
7. A food and drink mini game that could reward anything deemed appropriate
and as always some combo or variance of any or all of the above
Food and drink
Consumables
Players could have to stock up on food and drink to survive, with longer than usual effect timers.
Auto Eat and drink
When hungry, the player character could auto eat and drink between combat, with animations and effects.
Store rooms and granaries
Players could be able to find plenty of food and drink while on their adventures.
Hunter gatherers
Players could be able to find food and water throughout the wilderness.
Professions
Players could be able to craft the best food and drinks for their profession level.
Rituals
Food and drink could be used in rituals to gain powerful classes / abilities.
Some good ideas Doford.
IMO the more options the better. Make it so that every single item of food and drink has a use.
Want to get in that dungeon without having to fight through 3 camps of Orcs ? Approach the first camp of soldiers with a bucket of gruel
approach the second camp and offer the cavalry baskets of raw fish and the officers in the 3rd camp a bunch of truffles.
Don't get stuck on only one mechanic. Having food and drink only have one purpose is so limiting. And not all mechanics have to be totally fleshed out
in the beginning. Systems can be added, taken away, modified etc as the game goes. Having favor with NPCs that can go up or down by offering them
food and drink can be added post launch. Or set up in the beginning and focused on at a later date.
I'd prefer something less annoying for food/drink. Quite a few RPGs now have very short-duration food/drink buffs that leads to either having to micro-manage it or just ignoring the feature completely (as tends to happen with consumable bloat). Short-duration consumables should be well-intentioned and thought out, and certainly not over-abundant so it doesn't feel like a chore. Personally, I'd like to see a hunger/dehydration penalty for not eating/drinking (something basic like -% health/mana regen) and have food/drink be a long-lasting consumable (maybe even make a slot for it in the character window like EQ2 did). Low-level and vendor-bought food/drink would provide satiation but no extra buffs, and higher-level food/drink crafted by PC provisioners could provide small, but meaningful buffs along with satiating for longer (like a few hours or more). So, sure, players will just auto-consume the food/drink but they still have the capacity to make some decisions on how they approach it/the type of buffs they want.
Plus, VR could even add optional animations, for example: if you're taking a break or just standing around, your character could pull out a flask and take some sips or take a few bites of food.
Short-duration consumables/buffs (30 minutes or less) should be restricted to potions from alchemists or clickies.
Sicario said:I'd prefer something less annoying for food/drink. Quite a few RPGs now have very short-duration food/drink buffs that leads to either having to micro-manage it or just ignoring the feature completely (as tends to happen with consumable bloat). Short-duration consumables should be well-intentioned and thought out, and certainly not over-abundant so it doesn't feel like a chore. Personally, I'd like to see a hunger/dehydration penalty for not eating/drinking (something basic like -% health/mana regen) and have food/drink be a long-lasting consumable (maybe even make a slot for it in the character window like EQ2 did). Low-level and vendor-bought food/drink would provide satiation but no extra buffs, and higher-level food/drink crafted by PC provisioners could provide small, but meaningful buffs along with satiating for longer (like a few hours or more). So, sure, players will just auto-consume the food/drink but they still have the capacity to make some decisions on how they approach it/the type of buffs they want.
Yes, longer-duration food/drink to avoid the hunger/thirst regen penalty is much more optimal than the excessive food “buffs galore” that we see in mainstream. Perhaps in some situations in Pantheon certain consumables can be used to enhance resistance to cold, fire or disease and such.
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As long as food/drink are player-crafted only then there is nothing wrong with them being tied to regen. I think the hunger/thirst mechanic is bad mostly because it would likely lead to both food/drink being purchasable through vendor NPC's. If characters need food/drink in order to have basic regen then it would make sense why those things would be widely accessible on every other merchant across the world. I think it is a far better solution to just ditch the hunger/thirst mechanic altogether and provide regen to all food/drink.
I understand the mentality here ... characters should need to maintain basic upkeep of their character. Unfortunately, the thing that people seem to be missing here ... is that "basic upkeep" leads to a very "basic experience." That is what leads to food/drink being a mostly NPC-driven interaction rather than player-driven. Look at any game that has featured armor repairs. Repairing your armor is considered "basic maintenance" and what is the recurring trend in most/all of those games? Armor repair is mostly an NPC-driven interaction ... with the exception of repair kits, in certain games. It's NPC-driven because being able to repair your armor is considered "essential" the same way food/drink were considered "essential" in EQ.
Now if we move the needle just a bit ... to where characters always have base regen regardless of having food/drink consumables going in the background, food/drink are no longer an "essential" item that in turn becomes widely accessible to everybody. This doesn't mean that they aren't important, though. By moving away from essential and toward luxury, the experience is mostly the same ... players will still want/need food in order to have adequate regen because "base regen" would not be considered enough while doing anything interesting. The only thing that really gets changed is that food/drink becomes a centerpiece of crafting and player trade rather than a "sometimes thing" people do for buffs. The enhanced regen would likely be the main benefit of consuming food/drink ... we all know the power of having a mana battery!
This might seem like nothing here but reality suggests that if you're going to have a penalty administered to players for not consuming food/drink, to the point where they function less than normal -- food/drink will be viewed as an essential component of play, and need to be widely accessible as a result. I am far more interested in food/drink being viewed as a luxury item ... they would still be incredibly important but it would be a player-driven social construct that makes it so rather than a poorly implemented survival mechanic (What survival game has food/drink vendors selling cheap nourishment scattered all over the world?), and players would be the only aspirin for that headache. There is nothing mainstream about taking something that is trivially solved by basic NPC interaction and turning it into something that is exclusively solved through player interaction.
Sicario said:I'd prefer something less annoying for food/drink. Quite a few RPGs now have very short-duration food/drink buffs that leads to either having to micro-manage it or just ignoring the feature completely (as tends to happen with consumable bloat). Short-duration consumables should be well-intentioned and thought out, and certainly not over-abundant so it doesn't feel like a chore. Personally, I'd like to see a hunger/dehydration penalty for not eating/drinking (something basic like -% health/mana regen) and have food/drink be a long-lasting consumable (maybe even make a slot for it in the character window like EQ2 did). Low-level and vendor-bought food/drink would provide satiation but no extra buffs, and higher-level food/drink crafted by PC provisioners could provide small, but meaningful buffs along with satiating for longer (like a few hours or more). So, sure, players will just auto-consume the food/drink but they still have the capacity to make some decisions on how they approach it/the type of buffs they want.
Plus, VR could even add optional animations, for example: if you're taking a break or just standing around, your character could pull out a flask and take some sips or take a few bites of food.
Short-duration consumables/buffs (30 minutes or less) should be restricted to potions from alchemists or clickies.
agree longer food buffs (30mins - 2 hours max)
agree short buffs for elixirs draughts (5 - 20 mins max)
potions (instant - 15 secs max)
disagree with hunger and thirst causing negative regen
implementing this will cause micromanagement chore you disdain. it is not possible to have it both ways. this is very much a thing in survival games.
i would prefer an mmorpg with survival aspects(skyrim with frostfall), not a survival game with mmorpg elements(conan exiles). the acclimation should be a sufficient augmentation for survival gameplay.
if auto-consume is a thing, then the design is already bad since ability to make a meaningful choice has been automated.
i have modded to skyrim to a point where if hunger and thirst weren't managed, it lead to negative effects on top of the dealing with weather.
here's the caveat: skyrim has simple gameplay mechanics so leaning a bit more into the survival is aok. even then, it took quite a bit of time tweaking to ensure it was overbearing and detracting from the main gameplay- exploration, storytelling and character progression.
at face value for pantheon, we can expect to spend time forming parties. due to the choice of class interdependency, dealing with other players is more than enough management if you ask me. i don't want to be fumbling with hunger and thirst when i have a tank that thinks the healer sucks, the healer thinks the tank sucks and the dps is epeening on whos doing the most damage and saying they need to replace each other because dps is the reason we can't clear the encounter. i'm trying to figure out how to beat the encounter and the last thing i'm thinking about is we are all idiots because we forgot to eat and drink water.
at that point hunger and thirst isn't fun. it's just tedious and isn't the main selling point of an mmorpg where there is emphasis on decision-making, not survival.
oneADseven said:I understand the mentality here ... characters should need to maintain basic upkeep of their character. Unfortunately, the thing that people seem to be missing here ... is that "basic upkeep" leads to a very "basic experience." That is what leads to food/drink being a mostly NPC-driven interaction rather than player-driven. Look at any game that has featured armor repairs. Repairing your armor is considered "basic maintenance" and what is the recurring trend in most/all of those games? Armor repair is mostly an NPC-driven interaction ... with the exception of repair kits, in certain games. It's NPC-driven because being able to repair your armor is considered "essential" the same way food/drink were considered "essential" in EQ.
how to make player blacksmiths have more agency:
they give a 2 hr buff (extra armor or damage) when they fix stuff. on top of items that could give plus damage or plus armor.
@Vandraad Yep, I agree.
To a few others: while input is appreciated, that’s still too mainstream. Pantheon needs to move away from mainstream and implement what does not exist in mainstream, such as equipped food/water to avoid the positive regen penalty when adventuring and such. Let’s get in Pantheon what does not exist in mainstream and move away from what is. :)
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Syrif said:Grimix said: As a main cook in ffxi, I'm happy to see VR make a change. Instead of people buying cheapy vendor food to get by, they buy my wares to excell!While I haven’t heard much good about Final Fantasy, it is certain that having food/water as necessary for being equipped in Pantheon is good for you as a cook! :) Let‘s get food/water as necessary for adventuring right here in Pantheon, especially since such a food/water mechanism is absent from current mmorpg‘s.
lol.... "haven't heard much good about FFXI". Seeing people honestly write commentary like this is just mind blowing. Nice move Joppa, FFXI nailed cooking among many more traditional old school traits from the days of old. Glad to see cooking will have an actual impact instead of being ignored.
Hunk said:Syrif said:Grimix said: As a main cook in ffxi, I'm happy to see VR make a change. Instead of people buying cheapy vendor food to get by, they buy my wares to excell!While I haven’t heard much good about Final Fantasy, it is certain that having food/water as necessary for being equipped in Pantheon is good for you as a cook! :) Let‘s get food/water as necessary for adventuring right here in Pantheon, especially since such a food/water mechanism is absent from current mmorpg‘s.
lol.... "haven't heard much good about FFXI". Seeing people honestly write commentary like this is just mind blowing. Nice move Joppa, FFXI nailed cooking among many more traditional old school traits from the days of old. Glad to see cooking will have an actual impact instead of being ignored.
Ive heard Final Fantasies blow (no offense). It’s just what I’ve heard and that‘s what I was referring to. /shrug
I have nothing against cooking. As a matter of fact, I believe it was in Classic EQ before FF, so it’s been around lol.
Counterfleche said: If it's not fun, either don't put it in the game or don't make it necessary. While there are a couple people advocating for boring elements, there are a whole lot of people who don't want that. No game ever failed because it wasn't boring enough. I want the challenge to come from fighting and exploring, not from tedious game mechanics and too strong of an emphasis on logistics.
I agree to an extent - do you think repetitive food buffs are “fun”? I can see that being a boring element.
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stellarmind said:oneADseven said:I understand the mentality here ... characters should need to maintain basic upkeep of their character. Unfortunately, the thing that people seem to be missing here ... is that "basic upkeep" leads to a very "basic experience." That is what leads to food/drink being a mostly NPC-driven interaction rather than player-driven. Look at any game that has featured armor repairs. Repairing your armor is considered "basic maintenance" and what is the recurring trend in most/all of those games? Armor repair is mostly an NPC-driven interaction ... with the exception of repair kits, in certain games. It's NPC-driven because being able to repair your armor is considered "essential" the same way food/drink were considered "essential" in EQ.
how to make player blacksmiths have more agency:
they give a 2 hr buff (extra armor or damage) when they fix stuff. on top of items that could give plus damage or plus armor.
Actually...in FFXIV they tried that before yoshi took over and turned it into a wow clone. It worked to an extent, you could flag yourself in town as needing repairs and players could fix it for you while you were afk(there was like a base rate but can't remember specifics) I think getting your armor repaired by an actual crafter instead of the npc resulted in a bonus too your armor durability. May have also increased the amount of uses you could use the armor(again before yoshi took over armor had a life expectancy)
The fact that some people still think EQs style of food and water was a better system than WoWs is pretty absurd. It really just shows that dedicated EQ players are so in love with the archaic concepts the game had that they are unable to see anything evolve.
Buying 100 food and water to have it auto consumed does nothing for gameplay.
Also, if you think WoW is not difficult you have not actually played the game at a high end level. The only thing that EQ had in terms of difficulty over WoW was leveling. Anything post max level in EQ was a joke. EQ raiding did actually become challenging during LATE PoP and GoD, but it was still simple compared to modern day WoW.
Porygon said:The fact that some people still think EQs style of food and water was a better system than WoWs is pretty absurd. It really just shows that dedicated EQ players are so in love with the archaic concepts the game had that they are unable to see anything evolve.
Buying 100 food and water to have it auto consumed does nothing for gameplay.
Also, if you think WoW is not difficult you have not actually played the game at a high end level. The only thing that EQ had in terms of difficulty over WoW was leveling. Anything post max level in EQ was a joke. EQ raiding did actually become challenging during LATE PoP and GoD, but it was still simple compared to modern day WoW.
Myself and many others have always thought WoW to be the joke though, such as cartoonish graphics being the tip of the iceberg. What do you propose food and water to be? Are you suggesting for it to be like WoW’s? Simply out of curiousity: please clarify. I’m all for food/water necessity evolving; just not like WoW’s. Thanks :)
I can a see a system with both (Classic EQ had this, but I agree it needs to be expanded lol). Food/water to avoid positive regen penalties for adventuring, and also a robust cooking for crafters. Merchant inventory obviously would not be as “useful” as player-crafted. Perhaps crafted food can aid in Pantheon’s climate system and other uses. I do not think that only food/water “buffs galore” like what we see in mainstream games is the answer for Pantheon.
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Myself, im not against this whole auto consume mechanic, becuase the wow mechanic when it comes to food/drink is just as extreme in the other direction. So i think having food/drink that gives small buffs that are manually consumed and cant be skipped by consuming other food to recieve the buff. SO if you force feed yourself non stat food to not consume stat food you simply don't recieve stats from food. have the food give a small buff like 2% threadt generation, 5% health regen, and small stat line like these that way they will be search for in a min/max community but at the same time don't force you to have to buy them, i believe this is the prefect mix, that way the buffs aren't overly strong to where you feel forced to persue them, but also makes it to where if you are raiding or end game dungeoning you will feel more prepared to tackle the challenge, now obvious you can fight the numbers of what i put out, i wasnt really saying they need to be that % just saying what it could be to make them wanting but not overly powering to where you have to have them, but be strong enough to where you'll want them to feel wanitng to have.