I like the way it use to be before all the "buffs" and "stats" came with newer mmos. Food and Drink effected your "natural" regeneration.
So let's say that your natural regeneration is 100% by default. If your hungry that's a penalty, so it's slower. If your thristy, that's another one. If your starving, that's increases the debuff, etc, etc.
then each food and drink had a duration on it. How long it would last before you need to consume again.
If you start adding stats and buffs effects etc like in newer mmos. I feel like this takes away from the profession. Those that become cooks and brewers end up focusing on only the good ones, or the popular ones. Which means all those other ones become worthless, and the market becomes flooded with only the best of the best. I personally don't think that is a good thing. the other thing, I remember back when I played everquest, All I brought was iron rations off a npc vendor till I took up cooking at end game and made some better meals. I think having npcs sell all kind food and drinks is a bit much. I lean towards a more limited selection, brings a need to seek out a cook/brewer.
Perhaps, different foods/drinks effect the rate in which your natural regeneration degrades, instead of it being a set rate.
I always remember in older mmos, that you could just eat and drink as much as you want. I'd like to see you hit a "full" (cap) and can't eat or drink anymore. I always would like to see the "Well fed/Stuffed/Etc" buff, maybe that's is where the "buff" is at.
Idk, just my two cents.
Kilsin said:This post has been highlighted in my CM "Hot Topic" post and has been shared on our official social media, please keep the discussion going and remember the forum guidelines ;)
Hot Topic - Food and Drink is out! What are your thoughts on this? https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/11271/food-and-drink-is-out #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
That's great to hear. Will look forward to more dev comment on this. Always great to see dev team involvement and hear what you guys think!
I think it's a simple issue of how much do we want Pantheon to be a survival/resource management game.
To me, making food and drink more interesting and varied like potions tend to be is a no-brainer, but some obviously find that the nitty-gritty of making sure you don't run out of supplies is fun.
Like a lot of things, I don't envy the job VR have of sticking to their Vision and trying to work out how to keep all of their fans happy!
(Please consider giving Appearance Slots the same treatment soon. Some more dev comment and direction on that discussion would be welcome).
There's a lot I agree with here, and certainly I like things like travel and death being important and meaningful, so it's not just easy to bounce back from bad decisions. On the other hand, I think there's a delicate balance between immersion in the game world and turning it into a chore, like the level-by-spreadsheet approach of a lot of MMOs now.
I hate survival games. Hate them. I was playing one and thought okay I'm dying of thirst, so there I was standing in a river and I couldn't just lift water into my palm and drink it. No, I had to ask someone outside the game who said no you need to obtain this specific jar. Immersion-breaking in the stupidest way.
I have no problem planning and carrying stuff that could help me on an adventure, but I think the "reality" of survival aspect can feel incredibly manufactured and immersion-breaking.
I personally don't like the eating/drinking every few minutes to maintain your resources. It really takes me out of the fantasy. I mean, my healer must have one hell of a bladder to be drinking THAT much water. I would love it if food/drink were used like they are in tabletop RPGs. You eat or drink when you are "taking a rest". Maybe let us assign food or drink before logging out, giving us certain buffs when we log back in. Things like improving our innate resource regeneration by a small amount, or making certain spells or abilities slightly cheaper for a certain duration. If you don't assign food before logging, maybe give a "hungry" debuff requiring you to eat something or suffer a minor detrimental effect.
Make food important to your everyday life, but not a huge enough to necessitate carrying 5 stacks of sweet rolls in your bags at all points in time.
Food and drink was originally meant for stamina and mana purposes. If there is no food and drink ..this limits what crafters can do for the community...other than armor and weapons. The roleplay element is still important...roleplay includes, pvp, pve, race, class, crafting and so on. Even when you "die" you are roleplaying in a game world. :)
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:Food and drink was originally meant for stamina and mana purposes. If there is no food and drink ..this limits what crafters can do for the community...other than armor and weapons. The roleplay element is still important...roleplay includes, pvp, pve, race, class, crafting and so on. Even when you "die" you are roleplaying in a game world. :)
Cana
Yep, exactly. And add Summoner’s food/water and merchants to the crafted food/water too. I agree food/water needs to be effective and highly necessary in Pantheon (not just a clicky stat buff like in the game called World of Warcraft). Buffs are meant to be done by players, as this will be a community-based interactive world.
Syrif said:And add Summoner’s food/water and merchants to the crafted food/water too. I agree food/water needs to be effective and highly necessary in Pantheon (not just a clicky stat buff like in the game called World of Warcraft). Buffs are meant to be done by players, as this will be a community-based interactive world.
I enjoy buffing people around me and helping them in that way, yeah. Definitely part of the community feeling.
There must be a really interesting way of using food and water in a game that no one has thought of yet.
disposalist said:Kilsin said:This post has been highlighted in my CM "Hot Topic" post and has been shared on our official social media, please keep the discussion going and remember the forum guidelines ;)
Hot Topic - Food and Drink is out! What are your thoughts on this? https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/11271/food-and-drink-is-out #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
That's great to hear. Will look forward to more dev comment on this. Always great to see dev team involvement and hear what you guys think!
I think it's a simple issue of how much do we want Pantheon to be a survival/resource management game.
To me, making food and drink more interesting and varied like potions tend to be is a no-brainer, but some obviously find that the nitty-gritty of making sure you don't run out of supplies is fun.
Like a lot of things, I don't envy the job VR have of sticking to their Vision and trying to work out how to keep all of their fans happy!
(Please consider giving Appearance Slots the same treatment soon. Some more dev comment and direction on that discussion would be welcome).
What dev involvement? Please don't delete my post again, Kilsin.
Crowsinger said:I enjoy buffing people around me and helping them in that way, yeah. Definitely part of the community feeling.
There must be a really interesting way of using food and water in a game that no one has thought of yet.
I plan on leveling up a Chef or Brewer due to how food/drink will work. Crafters are part of the community, after all. They may not apply buffs in an "active" sense but they can create valuable consumables that are highly desirable due to the buffs they provide. Cooks were integral to every community in FFXI and I'm really excited to see what VR has in store for us. The concept is sound and the implementation should work really well due to the game tenets that drive the game design for Pantheon.
oneADseven said:I plan on leveling up a Chef or Brewer due to how food/drink will work. Crafters are part of the community, after all. They may not apply buffs in an "active" sense but they can create valuable consumables that are highly desirable due to the buffs they provide. Cooks were integral to every community in FFXI and I'm really excited to see what VR has in store for us. The concept is sound and the implementation should work really well due to the game tenets that drive the game design for Pantheon.
When you say "tenets that drive the game design for Pantheon", is there a place on the site that kind of lays that out? I've been finding lore and class/race description, but not so much the philosophy.
Crowsinger said:When you say "tenets that drive the game design for Pantheon", is there a place on the site that kind of lays that out? I've been finding lore and class/race description, but not so much the philosophy
Here you go:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/
I would also recommend these:
This debate about how food and drink should work seems to be a little like the debate about group XP bonuses. Some people say that group XP bonuses are in effect a penalty in disguise because they "encourage" everyone to have the biggest groups possible. Others say that group XP bonuses are things that ensure that people don't just bring the minimum needed for whatever they're doing because it's faster and more efficient.
Food as a survival mechanism (EQ style) could be seen as a tax or a penalty system. You have to have it or your health/mana regen is impacted. Unless it also comes with a variety of stat boosts and durations attached to it, you're probably just going to carry around whichever type you can get the most of. Some kind of auto-consume option is preferred since you're going to have to keep it "active" at all times.
On the other hand, food as a buff item can be seen as having little value. You only take it along when you remember or if you really, really need it (like for a raid), or if the bonus is very potent. The rest of the time it's probably not important to you and something you forget about.
I don't know what the right answer is. I think either method can work if done right. I'm potentially more partial to food as a buff item, because I think that encourages people to shop around for a wider variety of food/drink to use, but that's slight. But what I do know is this:
- If food and drink are supposed to be a thing in the game, they need to really matter to players - as much as a weapon or a piece of armor might matter. However we do that, the effects should be potent, and knowing a master chef or having one in your guild should really be a meaningful thing because of what it gives you access to. In addition, choices in food and drink should be meaningful. You shouldn't be able to just have one kind and have it always be the "best".
- Food and drink should not be something that you have to carry ridiculous amounts of in your inventory. Whether it's handled by having long durations or whatever, no one should ever feel like they have to devote a massive chunk of their available space to carrying around this stuff. As much as we like survival aspects sometimes, "survival" isn't meant to be a major component of gameplay in Pantheon.
- Pantheon should be looking for a way to elevate the concept of food and drink beyond what other games have done with it, in line with its tenets. Simply cloning EQ, or EQ2, or WoW, or FFXI, or LOTRO, or FFXIV, or whatever other game's system here is the wrong answer and will lead to an implementation that feels wrong in some way. Instead, VR should be thinking about what role they want food and drink to play in the rest of the game and how best to set that up in a way that works and encourages social gameplay - even if that means all of us have to learn a new way of handling it.
I've put forward my own ideas in past posts so I won't rehash those here. But I think that whatever system Pantheon ends up with, those three bullets are super important.
Nephele said:This debate about how food and drink should work seems to be a little like the debate about group XP bonuses. Some people say that group XP bonuses are in effect a penalty in disguise because they "encourage" everyone to have the biggest groups possible. Others say that group XP bonuses are things that ensure that people don't just bring the minimum needed for whatever they're doing because it's faster and more efficient.
Food as a survival mechanism (EQ style) could be seen as a tax or a penalty system. You have to have it or your health/mana regen is impacted. Unless it also comes with a variety of stat boosts and durations attached to it, you're probably just going to carry around whichever type you can get the most of. Some kind of auto-consume option is preferred since you're going to have to keep it "active" at all times.
On the other hand, food as a buff item can be seen as having little value. You only take it along when you remember or if you really, really need it (like for a raid), or if the bonus is very potent. The rest of the time it's probably not important to you and something you forget about.
I don't know what the right answer is. I think either method can work if done right. I'm potentially more partial to food as a buff item, because I think that encourages people to shop around for a wider variety of food/drink to use, but that's slight. But what I do know is this:
- If food and drink are supposed to be a thing in the game, they need to really matter to players - as much as a weapon or a piece of armor might matter. However we do that, the effects should be potent, and knowing a master chef or having one in your guild should really be a meaningful thing because of what it gives you access to. In addition, choices in food and drink should be meaningful. You shouldn't be able to just have one kind and have it always be the "best".
- Food and drink should not be something that you have to carry ridiculous amounts of in your inventory. Whether it's handled by having long durations or whatever, no one should ever feel like they have to devote a massive chunk of their available space to carrying around this stuff. As much as we like survival aspects sometimes, "survival" isn't meant to be a major component of gameplay in Pantheon.
- Pantheon should be looking for a way to elevate the concept of food and drink beyond what other games have done with it, in line with its tenets. Simply cloning EQ, or EQ2, or WoW, or FFXI, or LOTRO, or FFXIV, or whatever other game's system here is the wrong answer and will lead to an implementation that feels wrong in some way. Instead, VR should be thinking about what role they want food and drink to play in the rest of the game and how best to set that up in a way that works and encourages social gameplay - even if that means all of us have to learn a new way of handling it.
Nephele: I believe the clone wars debate is long over. Anyway with all due respect, you are wrong to say food/water in EQ was “survival style.” Equipped food/water in EQ simply activated positive regen. Meaning, you would not “die” if you didn’t have food/water equipped. Obviously, Pantheon and Terminus will not be a clone of anything, for that is impossible. As for buffs - I think we all realize that for a game of this scale, that is really the player’s job.. to buff others. Yes, there can be some unique foods for minor buffs and unique circumstances (such as the fulfilling climate system). I agree with you though. You see why food/water needs to be highly necessary, perhaps active. Otherwise, it becomes unimportant, like you say (and I agree that wouldn’t be good for crafters). It’s really not that complex, Nephele. VR can either make food/water highly necessary for adventuring, or they can not. Of course, highly necessary seems important for a potentially immersive game I would think.
