kreed99 said: I would be ok with out of combat only zoneline evac. But make it a high level spell. I know a lot of people argue that if you fight your way to the end boss you should have to fight your way out. But realisticly most people plan thier gameplay around killing up to the main boss then want to port or camp to bind point.
Well I don't think it will be a spell but dungeon functionality. An object or device in certain parts of the dungeon. And it won't be an evac but a one for one swap. Earlier I detailed the restrictions so I won't bore you with them again. And just my opinions/thoughts on the matter.
DracoKalen said:kreed99 said: I would be ok with out of combat only zoneline evac. But make it a high level spell. I know a lot of people argue that if you fight your way to the end boss you should have to fight your way out. But realisticly most people plan thier gameplay around killing up to the main boss then want to port or camp to bind point.
Well I don't think it will be a spell but dungeon functionality. An object or device in certain parts of the dungeon. And it won't be an evac but a one for one swap. Earlier I detailed the restrictions so I won't bore you with them again. And just my opinions/thoughts on the matter.
I'd still prefer a group ability to evac to the zone. Not a spell. Maybe only in certain dungeons that's fine. This, imo, facilitates a few things. When the party breaks up those with personal transport spells can leave the group easily, melee often HAVE to go to the zone line. This allows for a clean "ending" of the gaming session. When everyone is done you can head to the zone line as a group. It also requires the least amount of work as you don't have to design dungeons with multiple transport stones in mind. You only need to pick a point at the zone line, if the zone in and zone out are different I'd say pick the zone in, and code that to allow this ability to work there.
Not every dungeon needs this either. If we look at EQ for example Castle Mistmore wouldn't have needed it but a zone like Sebilis would have.
Maybe put a stone at the zone line that requires everyone to "attune" to it so they can use the group ability. Also I'd prefer it to be used with an undersized group. If someone goes link dead or /q because they are done for the night there is no reason to force the whole group to walk back... in most cases an undersized group will have more trouble making it back.
If each dungeon has stones spread out throughout it I have a feeling those will become the camps, for some reason I don't like this idea.
EppE said:DracoKalen said:kreed99 said: I would be ok with out of combat only zoneline evac. But make it a high level spell. I know a lot of people argue that if you fight your way to the end boss you should have to fight your way out. But realisticly most people plan thier gameplay around killing up to the main boss then want to port or camp to bind point.
Well I don't think it will be a spell but dungeon functionality. An object or device in certain parts of the dungeon. And it won't be an evac but a one for one swap. Earlier I detailed the restrictions so I won't bore you with them again. And just my opinions/thoughts on the matter.
I'd still prefer a group ability to evac to the zone. Not a spell. Maybe only in certain dungeons that's fine. This, imo, facilitates a few things. When the party breaks up those with personal transport spells can leave the group easily, melee often HAVE to go to the zone line. This allows for a clean "ending" of the gaming session. When everyone is done you can head to the zone line as a group. It also requires the least amount of work as you don't have to design dungeons with multiple transport stones in mind. You only need to pick a point at the zone line, if the zone in and zone out are different I'd say pick the zone in, and code that to allow this ability to work there.
Not every dungeon needs this either. If we look at EQ for example Castle Mistmore wouldn't have needed it but a zone like Sebilis would have.
Maybe put a stone at the zone line that requires everyone to "attune" to it so they can use the group ability. Also I'd prefer it to be used with an undersized group. If someone goes link dead or /q because they are done for the night there is no reason to force the whole group to walk back... in most cases an undersized group will have more trouble making it back.
If each dungeon has stones spread out throughout it I have a feeling those will become the camps, for some reason I don't like this idea.
That's why I was looking at restrictions. For instance you are in a dungeon and soandso needs to take care of the kids bedtime. He can do a one for one swap with another player. Restriction would be you can only do 2 replacemenst per stone per group. Disbanding and re-grouping has no affect on how many times you can swap players.
DracoKalen said:
That's why I was looking at restrictions. For instance you are in a dungeon and soandso needs to take care of the kids bedtime. He can do a one for one swap with another player. Restriction would be you can only do 2 replacemenst per stone per group. Disbanding and re-grouping has no affect on how many times you can swap players.
I'm not opposed to a stone. I think this is something that would need to be play tested with the group told "try to exploit this". In general I don't think we see that enough in Betas. Most early betas are done by fans of the company/game so they aren't looking at ways to take advantage of it. That's how you end up seeing all these exploits and issues at launch and everyone goes "how did this make it through beta!"
EppE said:DracoKalen said:
That's why I was looking at restrictions. For instance you are in a dungeon and soandso needs to take care of the kids bedtime. He can do a one for one swap with another player. Restriction would be you can only do 2 replacemenst per stone per group. Disbanding and re-grouping has no affect on how many times you can swap players.
I'm not opposed to a stone. I think this is something that would need to be play tested with the group told "try to exploit this". In general I don't think we see that enough in Betas. Most early betas are done by fans of the company/game so they aren't looking at ways to take advantage of it. That's how you end up seeing all these exploits and issues at launch and everyone goes "how did this make it through beta!"
I hear ya and I'll see you in alpha or beta.
Here's an idea on how I'd like to see it set.
Someone double clicks on the stone. In the background the code checks the character and see's it's in a group. It pulls all group members into a list.
The player see's a dialog box with all current group members on the left. If the person is already link dead it will show that in the list. On the right side of the dialog box would be a list of every person LFG for that dungeon. If there's no one there or not the correct class you hit the next tab which will show you everyone online and not in a group.
The player would select the person who is leaving and on the right the person who will be joining and hit "Accept". Both swapping players would get a dialog stating "You are about to swap into " And they can accept or cancel.
Once that is done the code would store that group in a temporary list with 1 tick for use and 1 left. That list would persist until everyone in the group leaves the zone. If the group stays in the zone and disbands then re-groups then tries to use the stone again the names will still match the list and limit them to one more replacement. Two or more groups disbanding and re-grouping integrating members from the group above will all automatically lose one swap request and all will be added to the list created earlier.
I'm alright with a stone outside the place. It works well with their idea that dungeons will be a mixture of levels, where you can watch the higher level PC's from a distance or they'll intersect with lowbie parties. If I see 4 high end guys walking by without aggroing a bunch of low level stuff, with all their glorious gear, then I have something to aspire to as they both walk out, and then back in without much of a disturbance to them while my party struggles to kill 2 things at a time.
DracoKalen said:
I hear ya and I'll see you in alpha or beta.
Alpha, hopefully sooner rather than later.
DracoKalen said:Here's an idea on how I'd like to see it set.
Someone double clicks on the stone. In the background the code checks the character and see's it's in a group. It pulls all group members into a list.
The player see's a dialog box with all current group members on the left. If the person is already link dead it will show that in the list. On the right side of the dialog box would be a list of every person LFG for that dungeon. If there's no one there or not the correct class you hit the next tab which will show you everyone online and not in a group.
The player would select the person who is leaving and on the right the person who will be joining and hit "Accept". Both swapping players would get a dialog stating "You are about to swap into " And they can accept or cancel.
Once that is done the code would store that group in a temporary list with 1 tick for use and 1 left. That list would persist until everyone in the group leaves the zone. If the group stays in the zone and disbands then re-groups then tries to use the stone again the names will still match the list and limit them to one more replacement. Two or more groups disbanding and re-grouping integrating members from the group above will all automatically lose one swap request and all will be added to the list created earlier.
Yeah this is a workable idea. I'd say add a timer on that too... or take into account if over 50% of the party hasn't used it. That way if one person has been in the group for 6-8 hours they aren't penalizing the group by not letting them bring in the new person.
DracoKalen said:Well the devs have made a point of this being a group centric game. At the same time they want to facilitate keeping groups together as well as intact.
Keeping in the spirit of what they have said replacing a group member that had to drop should not be a crisis. I mean 3 hours into a dungeon and your cleric needs to drop shouldn't be the end of the adventure. By the same token it is not reasonable nor good use of players time to make that same group go all the way back to the beginning of the dungeon to start over.
So what youre saying is you want Pantheon to MMOs be what tee-ball is to baseball....
Events like this is what seperates the men from the boy and the women from the girls....
You want to never be remembers go with the instant gratification, you want to be forever remembers step up and get the replacement ahead of time and then take another step and get them to your camp, or move foward with your anti social agenda.
Riqq said:DracoKalen said:Well the devs have made a point of this being a group centric game. At the same time they want to facilitate keeping groups together as well as intact.
Keeping in the spirit of what they have said replacing a group member that had to drop should not be a crisis. I mean 3 hours into a dungeon and your cleric needs to drop shouldn't be the end of the adventure. By the same token it is not reasonable nor good use of players time to make that same group go all the way back to the beginning of the dungeon to start over.
So what youre saying is you want Pantheon to MMOs be what tee-ball is to baseball....
Events like this is what seperates the men from the boy and the women from the girls....
You want to never be remembers go with the instant gratification, you want to be forever remembers step up and get the replacement ahead of time and then take another step and get them to your camp, or move foward with your anti social agenda.
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Testosterone Masculinity Edition
Fides said:Riqq said:DracoKalen said:Well the devs have made a point of this being a group centric game. At the same time they want to facilitate keeping groups together as well as intact.
Keeping in the spirit of what they have said replacing a group member that had to drop should not be a crisis. I mean 3 hours into a dungeon and your cleric needs to drop shouldn't be the end of the adventure. By the same token it is not reasonable nor good use of players time to make that same group go all the way back to the beginning of the dungeon to start over.
So what youre saying is you want Pantheon to MMOs be what tee-ball is to baseball....
Events like this is what seperates the men from the boy and the women from the girls....
You want to never be remembers go with the instant gratification, you want to be forever remembers step up and get the replacement ahead of time and then take another step and get them to your camp, or move foward with your anti social agenda.
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Testosterone Masculinity Edition
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Testosterone Masculinity Edition Adult Edition
Same thing.
You want to walk uphill in the snow both ways too? There's nothing anti-social about some of the suggestions here, so long as it's not cross-server and open a page and automatically join a group and nobody talks.
You can still socialize by walking up to a stone and summoning someone you've been talking to since the Cleric mentioned they had 5/10/30 minutes left.
I can argue the other side too, maybe the party should retire for awhile after grinding for 3 hours in a dungeon and their Cleric has to go. Maybe it's time for a break, feed yourself, hug your animal, whatever it may be.
There's nothing "Adult" about it. Do you drive to work? Be an adult and walk. Use a shopping cart? Nothing adult about that either. Sounds like toxic masculinity to me. Why does it sound like that? Because you can't compromise. It's all or nothing.
-People don't want a WoW-style queue system and want your replacements to run 30 minutes there.
-Others aren't pushing a queue system, but want a more convenient way to get there via stones/COTH/summons, etc.
Let's discuss a compromise and meet in the middle somewhere.
Not a fan of summoning stones etc. If a group has a high enough level Summoner to summon someone from within the same zone, great. If not? Go pick up your replacement from the entrance if it is too dangerous for them to make it alone and they can't get or it isn't safe for invis.
I suggest reading some books on integrity, as the reasons for not implementing systems like this will ruin any memory or sense of accomplishment to make a long story short, and whereas someone people might want a mind numbing game thats cool there are thousands of them out there that currently exhist, I dont want to see another one personally, ive spent too much of life playing video games, I know which type hook people and which type meh people. The person behind the character should mean something, Actions should mean something, effort should mean something, rewards should mean something, Recently for example I scooped up Anthem and The Division 2, while these games were fun and easy to blast through, within a week I was bored of them and with their current systems there is no way anything they implement could change how i feel about them, the lack of depth, player to player interaction, content, its all just meh, World of Warcraft - Greatest game ever when it first came out, just degenerated, and it isnt becuase "thats the nature of the beast" its the nature of degenerative game mechanics implemented for lazy, unmotivated, and selfish individuals, i mean its a complete joke now, random loot is lazy, not having to run to a dungeon or area is lazy, not having to to communicate lifestyle to the people you are playing with is selfish, not getting to know your fellow players is anti social, EQ was the greatest social experience ive ever had in a video game the communication was just always there as it was needed to be successful, groups had waiting lists people would get on and another player in the group would keep....see this is what alot of people dont understand, that if someone had only 3 hours, there was always someone who was waiting to get that tell to get to the dungeon someone was leaving in 30 minutes, and they could pass if they couldnt get there and you pick the next person on the list, or they could agree and honestly didnt mind running do the dungeon and sitting at the zone line waiting for a pick up or get buffs from other at the zone line to make it easier to get to where they needed to group. I could write a book on this seriously but ill leave it at that.
Cynwulf said:I hope they reconsider the instant summoning of party members. Just makes it very easy for groups, guilds to perma camp a spot for days and days.
To my knowledge they never confirmed that it was something being considered outside of perhaps summoner having a "Call of Heroes" type spell at some point. This whole thread about summoning people is based on imagination/hypothetical suggestion.
Iksar said:Cynwulf said:I hope they reconsider the instant summoning of party members. Just makes it very easy for groups, guilds to perma camp a spot for days and days.
To my knowledge they never confirmed that it was something being considered outside of perhaps summoner having a "Call of Heroes" type spell at some point. This whole thread about summoning people is based on imagination/hypothetical suggestion.
Its based on that they recently said they are looking at way to get people into groups faster. We are discussing the best way to accomplish this. VR really hasn't confirmed a lot of things, but they have mentioned ideas they're working on.
EppE said:Its based on that they recently said they are looking at way to get people into groups faster. We are discussing the best way to accomplish this. VR really hasn't confirmed a lot of things, but they have mentioned ideas they're working on.
I didn't take away from the roundtable a sense they were leaning toward summons so much as just reiterating they want it to be easy to find replacements and meet new like-minded players with similar schedules.
I think a better answer would generally be dungeons with shortcut designs. One-way wells you can jump in to drop to lower levels or windstreams that push up floors, locked doors than can only be opened from one side that cut through entire areas, and things of that nature.
They don't even have to be hard placed all-access solutions either, IMO it would be better to have tons of class specific areas to shine. Castle/keep walls that you can have a rogue lower rope down to shortcut party members cutting massive areas of dungeon away, chasms/cliffs/pits that can be circumvented by a druid with vinewoven bridge, blocked passages/doorways that can be opened by warrior charges, and things like that.
Whatever the final implementation is, I just hope it's something that players have to at least earn, and it's not just "handed to them".
It was like this in FFXI, and other MMOs I'd played back then. I assume it was somewhat similar in EQ1 (never really played it, but I know FFXI was largely modeled after it). Anything that was beneficial to your character had to be earned through gameplay, and was often challenging.
For example, FFXI's world was broken up into regions, comprised of multiple zones. One zone in each region contained an Outpost. If your Nation had control of that region (via the game's Conquest system), you could take a Supply Mission from a Gate Guard to that outpost. Completing that mission would grant you access to teleport directly to or from that outpost anytime afterward... so long as your Nation had control. If you didn't have control, you could warp to it, but not back. Getting to some of those Outposts could be really challenging. I remember having a heck of a time getting to some - but it made earning that teleport so much more satisfying, because you knew you wouldn't have to make that run again... unless you were helping another player reach it (which was also not uncommon).
Similarly, in the Aht Urghan expansion, there were locations called Staging Points. These were primarily used for one of the game's systems, called Assault. They worked similarly to outposts, in that you had to get there on foot, and "unlock" it (by attuning). Once you'd done that, you could freely take on Assault missions for that Staging Point, or just teleport straight out to them if you wanted to get somewhere quicker. But again, unlocking them could be challenging. There were some nasty beasts in the Aht Urghan areas, including these imps that could see invisibility.. which made them rather terrifying...but I digress lol...
The best part about that system was that it also encouraged people to team up so they could "fight their way" to the locations if necessary. Sometimes higher level character could help you get there. And so forth. The point is, it encouraged people to help each other out, which helped build community. In my opinion, anything that presents an opportunity for community building is a good thing, and some of the strongest bonds are formed through shared challenge.
Anyway... Whatever method VR choose to go with, I hope they at least require players to earn the ability and don't just grant it. The ability to travel long distances, whatever the reason, is pretty powerful, and I don't think it should come cheap or easy.
I've got no dog in this fight, as I play DPS and am easier to replace than other archetypes, but I can say that I did enjoy being able to link up with other groups (and also do corpse runs) due to the Rogues ability to hide and sneak by mobs and get to a group.
I don't want to see it too easy for classes to summon/waystones be used/whatever, but if VR is going to add something in to make it a little more convenient, at least add some effort/risk to the equation other than just a gold sink.
Iksar said: To my knowledge they never confirmed that it was something being considered outside of perhaps summoner having a "Call of Heroes" type spell at some point. This whole thread about summoning people is based on imagination/hypothetical suggestion.
Based on the summoner class page, all that's required to provide everything that's been suggested so far is two summoners with Escape Portal. Within a zone, they can portal back and forth to each others location, carrying a group with them. That's not imagination, that's the logical use case based on the currently available public information. Also, Call of the Heroes is directly mentioned in the FAQ, today.
It seems reasonable a guild of any size would have two Summoners available at all times, specifically to permit this use case.
If VR doesn't want this to happen, then they should remove Escape Portal from the game, or change it's description to reflect it's adjusted state to prevent this use case, just like any/every other skill or spell. Otherwise, it will happen. Just like FD training.
I remember a thing called time management. It was an interesting thing. Like if I knew I was going to raid on a certain day I would make sure I had the allotted time for it, which was usually like 4 hours. Same thing with a dungeon. If you aren't going to fight your way down, get a camp, and hold that camp with a satisfactory time with your group, then find an easier to get to camp, or a popular zone where most mobs are probably dead, and find a group there.
Watemper said:I remember a thing called time management. It was an interesting thing. Like if I knew I was going to raid on a certain day I would make sure I had the allotted time for it, which was usually like 4 hours. Same thing with a dungeon. If you aren't going to fight your way down, get a camp, and hold that camp with a satisfactory time with your group, then find an easier to get to camp, or a popular zone where most mobs are probably dead, and find a group there.
I remember that as well. It's too bad my kids and work don't know about it.