As long of dungeons as Brad has a tendency to make I'd almost guarantee there would have to be some kind of summon system. I'm just sitting here thinking of Dargun's Tomb, it takes hours to get down there to the cyclops/giant phase where you time kill. I couldn't imagine getting all the way down there and the cleric has to bail because he has to pick up his daughter from a piano recital. Tricksters was a pretty deep dungeon in Vanguard as well. Getting beyond the painting took a lot of work. Get all the way down there and someone loses connection because of a storm, can't get back on for a week....all food for thought. ANd remember we are all older what wasn't so important back then is a lot more important now.
Moloka said:
As long of dungeons as Brad has a tendency to make I'd almost guarantee there would have to be some kind of summon system. I'm just sitting here thinking of Dargun's Tomb, it takes hours to get down there to the cyclops/giant phase where you time kill. I couldn't imagine getting all the way down there and the cleric has to bail because he has to pick up his daughter from a piano recital. Tricksters was a pretty deep dungeon in Vanguard as well. Getting beyond the painting took a lot of work. Get all the way down there and someone loses connection because of a storm, can't get back on for a week....all food for thought.
That is kind of the point. A long and difficult dungeon is something you plan a long venture for, a weekend run, or something your group has a time for. This made those areas difficult and special due to the time requirement (EQ had some zones as well which were very hard and difficult to get back into).
If you have a bad night, some have to take off early due to an unforeseen circumstance, then those are the breaks. If someone has to leave early to pick up their kid because they did not plan time to do the run, well… that is on you and your group.
Moloka said:
ANd remember we are all older what wasn't so important back then is a lot more important now.
Yep, I remember back then when I was a full grown adult with family and responsibilities back then as well. I still planned my events like most of the adults I played with who also had RL responsibilities.
No problems with COTH summoning here, but if it really has to be an issue to some I would suggest a summoning sickness, maybe a penalty to exp for some time or a buff penallty of some sort. No planning can account for those unplanned circumstances some people face while gaming. Being that there are nozone then the spell should have a max distance but I have no clue on how that would work as far as game inplementation. Perhaps planting a flag at allowed areas such as dungen entrances or something similar by the caster. Anyway just my 2 copper :)
Yaladan said:No problems with COTH summoning here, but if it really has to be an issue to some I would suggest a summoning sickness, maybe a penalty to exp for some time or a buff penallty of some sort. No planning can account for those unplanned circumstances some people face while gaming. Being that there are nozone then the spell should have a max distance but I have no clue on how that would work as far as game inplementation. Perhaps planting a flag at allowed areas such as dungen entrances or something similar by the caster. Anyway just my 2 copper :)
Well if you are implying that we start taxing abilities, i would just say why even have it available, if they put in COTH great i really dont see a problem with it, its actually a pretty good idea, it makes summoner a good thing to have ina group, but now to have this system automated so everyone can just open a menu click a button and boom be in a group getting exp, no thanks, its VRs job to make us a world, its our job to inhabit and manipulate it as characters, not as menu operators. /puke and /pukesomemore at automated services
DracoKalen said:haha.....must be nice. Most of us don't have such nice and orderly lives. When the secure VPN goes down I get called and the boss doesn't care what I had "planned".
Such unrealistic expectations.
Yes simple time management, and not wanting everything right now or expecting a world to cater to our poor time management is indeed a good thing.
Not sure how you determine "most of us" is there a poll someplace on how orderly one life iis or is that just your opinion? Because my opinion differs greatly.
As for your VPN problem, that's your problem, please don't make it ours. Might I suggest a new provider.
Zorkon said:DracoKalen said:haha.....must be nice. Most of us don't have such nice and orderly lives. When the secure VPN goes down I get called and the boss doesn't care what I had "planned".
Such unrealistic expectations.
Yes simple time management, and not wanting everything right now or expecting a world to cater to our poor time management is indeed a good thing.
Not sure how you determine "most of us" is there a poll someplace on how orderly one life iis or is that just your opinion? Because my opinion differs greatly.
As for your VPN problem, that's your problem, please don't make it ours. Might I suggest a new provider.
I know more people between the age of 28 to 60 that have families and/or jobs then don't. If you have a family and a job you have lots of distractions. It's that easy.
And you really should try to read and inderstand before replying. The VPN was not mine but the company I work for which is why I said "my boss". And in our world technology can be problematic even with the best equipment/provider.
DracoKalen said:haha.....must be nice. Most of us don't have such nice and orderly lives. When the secure VPN goes down I get called and the boss doesn't care what I had "planned".
Such unrealistic expectations.
I worked on call in the IT field during EQ. Put in often 60+ hours a week. I played when I could, did what I could based on what I had time for. When it was my rotation to be on call, I would only group in dungeon locations that were easier to get to or group in the outside world with some friends for exp. I also would let my group know that I was not reliable and so could not get engaged into something I was to be relied on. I act with such responsibility even to this day, even bypassing playing a game if I can not commit or give it reasonable attention.
What I don't do is expect the game developers to make the game around me, because I am not the only one who plays the game. That would not be very adult of me. /shrug
Tanix said:DracoKalen said:haha.....must be nice. Most of us don't have such nice and orderly lives. When the secure VPN goes down I get called and the boss doesn't care what I had "planned".
Such unrealistic expectations.
I worked on call in the IT field during EQ. Put in often 60+ hours a week. I played when I could, did what I could based on what I had time for. When it was my rotation to be on call, I would only group in dungeon locations that were easier to get to or group in the outside world with some friends for exp. I also would let my group know that I was not reliable and so could not get engaged into something I was to be relied on. I act with such responsibility even to this day, even bypassing playing a game if I can not commit or give it reasonable attention.
What I don't do is expect the game developers to make the game around me, because I am not the only one who plays the game. That would not be very adult of me. /shrug
Bravo! Well said my man, and very respectable, now if more people were more like this and less selfish the MMO industry could reclaim its greatness!6
DracoKalen said:Zorkon said:DracoKalen said:haha.....must be nice. Most of us don't have such nice and orderly lives. When the secure VPN goes down I get called and the boss doesn't care what I had "planned".
Such unrealistic expectations.
Yes simple time management, and not wanting everything right now or expecting a world to cater to our poor time management is indeed a good thing.
Not sure how you determine "most of us" is there a poll someplace on how orderly one life iis or is that just your opinion? Because my opinion differs greatly.
As for your VPN problem, that's your problem, please don't make it ours. Might I suggest a new provider.
I know more people between the age of 28 to 60 that have families and/or jobs then don't. If you have a family and a job you have lots of distractions. It's that easy.
And you really should try to read and inderstand before replying. The VPN was not mine but the company I work for which is why I said "my boss". And in our world technology can be problematic even with the best equipment/provider.
I am in that demographic you describe, and was while playing EQ at release. Family, Job, Overtime, all of it.You are describing me.
The difference as Tanix pointed out is I don't expect the developers to design the game around me, and what time I can expect to play.
As for you bosses VPN, I did read and understand what you were saying, You obviously don't understand me, if this was my employer and they had problems enough with there network that I had to expect the rest of the world to stop and wait for me, I would be researching and recommending new suppliers, or finding another job.
I'm no stranger to such things. Google "Hydro LockerGoga" I'm neck deep in this right now. Our shop was down 2 weeks with my coworkers drawing unemployment and me working 79 hours over a span of 8 days to get us back up to producing parts. Just today I'm able to get them network access to the printer... if I get off here and go do it.
$#!+ happens to all of us, it's called life! I don't want the game dumbed down to accommodate that.
You know draco i think i understand you, you have quite a bit money, and not alot of time due to your work schedule and life in general and you really love the genre you just dont have the time, but you do have the money, just pay someone to play your character for you, ill bet you could get someone to do it for 15 dollars an hour all day.
Riqq said:You know draco i think i understand you, you have quite a bit money, and not alot of time due to your work schedule and life in general and you really love the genre you just dont have the time, but you do have the money, just pay someone to play your character for you, ill bet you could get someone to do it for 15 dollars an hour all day.
not sure how you get that. I work for a living like many others. I enjoy playing the game but I also have actual responsibilities that do not conform to a plannable schedule all the time. Luckily the devs understand that and are planning to make it so what time I have to play isn't interrupted as much because someone else has to leave during my play time. That's not a freebe or lessens the experience. It's just a thoughtful gesture by VR.
((I don't want the game dumbed down to accommodate that.))
I think we may have different opinions on what constitutes dumbing down. I don't mean you and I specifically - I mean as reflected generally in this thread.
To me - dumbing down means making content easier - or easier to get to. Dungeons where you queue and are teleported right there. Boss fights where it is possible to lose but takes some effort - even your first try.
But I don't consider designing a game for a typical play session of, let us say, two hours rather than five hours to be "dumbing down". I consider it simple common sense given that most adults with families very rarely will have four or five hours that they can devote in a row with no family or work aggro or any other need to interrupt gameplay for more than 5 minutes.
This isn't necessarily because most of us have more crowded and hectic schedules now than in 1999. Some of us do and some of us do not.
But those that could play that many hours uninterrupted were a small minority back then. Not all or even most players did that, and many people saw those who did and said heck no and never played the game.
High level raiders were, and are, a small minority of the gaming population. Far more people will sit down and play for an hour or two, get what they can done, and log off.
The thing about planning a game in 2-3 hour sessions is that there is more things to do for those that can play for 5-6 or even 8-9 hours. You can do either 1, 2, or 3 different things depending on your playtime. So weekend warriors will be able to run more content. Hardcore gamers can run more content. Its just designing things so that a normal play session and feeling of accomplishment happens in 2-3 hours instead of 2-3 days.
they should also cut the amount of experience it takes to level by 400%, or better yet dont even have a level system, i mean whats the point, just put us at max level drop us in a world where we all can solo everything and get random drops with random stats on them, man this sound so much fun i cant wait
dorotea said:((I don't want the game dumbed down to accommodate that.))
I think we may have different opinions on what constitutes dumbing down. I don't mean you and I specifically - I mean as reflected generally in this thread.
To me - dumbing down means making content easier - or easier to get to. Dungeons where you queue and are teleported right there. Boss fights where it is possible to lose but takes some effort - even your first try.
But I don't consider designing a game for a typical play session of, let us say, two hours rather than five hours to be "dumbing down". I consider it simple common sense given that most adults with families very rarely will have four or five hours that they can devote in a row with no family or work aggro or any other need to interrupt gameplay for more than 5 minutes.
This isn't necessarily because most of us have more crowded and hectic schedules now than in 1999. Some of us do and some of us do not.
But those that could play that many hours uninterrupted were a small minority back then. Not all or even most players did that, and many people saw those who did and said heck no and never played the game.
High level raiders were, and are, a small minority of the gaming population. Far more people will sit down and play for an hour or two, get what they can done, and log off.
We do differ in that a bit, for me dumbing it down means removing unpredictability. Making every play session a "win". No unexpected trains to avoid, no unexpected interruption to a quest down into a dungon. I don't want to see a dungon that can be completed in 2 hours. There will always be a lot one can progress in 2 hours, but the deepest depths of the dungon should be much longer, and if something goes wrong, a wipe or real life happens to one of your party members, then it SHOULD be an obstacle you eat her overcome, or abandon the quest for that day and try again next week.
WOW has got a mess of 30min to 2 hour dungons, why are we all here even bothering with Pantheon?
Me, because I find WOW boring always winning all the time and nothing unexpected ever happening.
Can someone define what would constitute a successful "normal" play session?
Should you be able to start and finish a boss raid?
Should you be able to complete a quest? 2? 5?
Should you be able to traverse the entire world?
To me, a successful game session would be one where I logged on, earned a little xp, maybe completed a step or multiple steps of a quest I had, chatted with friends, etc.
Actually, a successful session would be ANY time I log in, and am compelled to stay, versus deciding 5 minutes in that I don't feel like playing and log out. Maybe I sit in a tavern and talk to others, maybe I pick daisies, maybe I go buff lowbies and stand guardian over them for a while, maybe I persuse the markets, maybe wander aimlessly through and area I haven't really explored.
kreed99 said:The thing about planning a game in 2-3 hour sessions is that there is more things to do for those that can play for 5-6 or even 8-9 hours. You can do either 1, 2, or 3 different things depending on your playtime. So weekend warriors will be able to run more content. Hardcore gamers can run more content. Its just designing things so that a normal play session and feeling of accomplishment happens in 2-3 hours instead of 2-3 days.
See, this is what I understood what they were talking about when they mentioned that there would be content that would accomodate a 2 hour play session. I did not take it to mean that ALL content would be developed to meet this criteria, rather that this would exist in some areas.
Thing is... EQ had content you could do with only 2 hours of play time. There were numerous areas where you could enter the dungeon and join a group at a specific spot and camp it for a couple of hours without major issue and this would include possible wipes as well. Heck, in EQ there were even places you could go if you only had a hour or so of time. You could gruop in an outdoor area where there were exp mobs, or even item dropping mobs for only an hour with easy recovery time.
The problem I have with some of the expectations here is that they are claiming that the deepest, darkest, hardest dungeons should be designed so a player can get in and out easy, wipe a few times and reset with only a couple of hours to spare. That is not asking for content to be available for someone who has only a couple hours of play time, that is asking for the ENTIRE game to be designed around a couple of hours of play time.
Like I said, EQ had content available for low play times, it just didn't have "premium" content available for little play times. That is what games like WoW and other modern MMOs did by developing the content in a manner where 15 min runs to the deepest darkest dungeon was available to the player who had little to no time to play.
If Pantheon designs around that concept, the game will be a failure to its tenants right out of the door because you CAN NOT have meaningful content to which players can access easily in short amounts of time. It defeats the entire premise of what "meaningful" content is.
I think it is important that all of us learn to respect the perspectives of others, especially when we do not agree with them, without injecting our own preconceived notions of why people might feel the way they do.
When I posted this thread, I was hoping for it to be a place where people could share ideas - good ones, bad ones, weird ones, whatever, without getting into the same old arguments and philosophical divisions that permeate almost every other thread in this particular forum. Perhaps that was a bit naive of me, but I tend to like to think that people are better than they sometimes appear to be.
Anyway, that's my mini rant for today. There's some interesting ideas and concepts that people have brought up in the discussion so far. It would be nice not to see them get drowned out by the arguing, overanalyzing, and outright hyperbole that seems to be happening far too often.
Nephele said:
I think it is important that all of us learn to respect the perspectives of others, especially when we do not agree with them, without injecting our own preconceived notions of why people might feel the way they do.
When I posted this thread, I was hoping for it to be a place where people could share ideas - good ones, bad ones, weird ones, whatever, without getting into the same old arguments and philosophical divisions that permeate almost every other thread in this particular forum. Perhaps that was a bit naive of me, but I tend to like to think that people are better than they sometimes appear to be.
Sounds like what you desired was people posting ideas without any discussion. Nothing is wrong with that, but you need to preset the constraints of your expectations prior to it rather than “wishfully” thinking you could ask opinions and expect no conflict in such. Naive is a rather a nice and subtle word I would describe your expectations.
Nephele said:
Anyway, that's my mini rant for today. There's some interesting ideas and concepts that people have brought up in the discussion so far. It would be nice not to see them get drowned out by the arguing, overanalyzing, and outright hyperbole that seems to be happening far too often.
Might want to expand that world outside of that little cup of a world you seem to expect people to live in. I mean, I am understanding to an extent, but your expectations in this issue are not just naive, they are blissfully ignorant of reality.
To expand on my previous post....We also must consider the skill and level of the players doing the content of a 2-3 hour session. I have seen high level crappy players barely able to scratch out a camp spot near the entrance of a dungeon. On the flip side i have been a part of highly skilled player raids that took on events while lacking the numbers recommended and still conquering the event. So one group's 2-3 hours can be highly productive while the other group can have a super unproductive play session.
Riqq said:Yaladan said:No problems with COTH summoning here, but if it really has to be an issue to some I would suggest a summoning sickness, maybe a penalty to exp for some time or a buff penallty of some sort. No planning can account for those unplanned circumstances some people face while gaming. Being that there are nozone then the spell should have a max distance but I have no clue on how that would work as far as game inplementation. Perhaps planting a flag at allowed areas such as dungen entrances or something similar by the caster. Anyway just my 2 copper :)
Well if you are implying that we start taxing abilities, i would just say why even have it available, if they put in COTH great i really dont see a problem with it, its actually a pretty good idea, it makes summoner a good thing to have ina group, but now to have this system automated so everyone can just open a menu click a button and boom be in a group getting exp, no thanks, its VRs job to make us a world, its our job to inhabit and manipulate it as characters, not as menu operators. /puke and /pukesomemore at automated services
I get it Riqq, If it is not implemented I would be fine with it, however unless I am misinterpreting some developement intent I am assuming that the design for the moment is to keep groups together and to not overly hinder the flow of a good gaming session for the players. That being said I will assume that there will be some sort of spell or ability by some classes to allow for such aid. I do object to being called across the world to the inner part of some dungeon, just as I object to having other classes other than the intended classes to provide teleportation, but alas! there will be some available to any class for continental travel therefore in my opinion undermining a class ability to accomodate the masses that cry foul. I do think that at max between traveling to the portal are plun mooching a teleport and running to the dungeon shoul be a 20-30 minute trek if all goes well, then you can get a summon to the group. Should there be a penalty for the summoned? or could the group fight to the entrance to pick you up for no penalty? Either way at least there is a choice rather than the lack of one. Groups in the past as I recalled in EQ and Vanguard would start looking for a replacement prior to the player leaving (most people are courteous enough to give notice) thus giving the substitute time toget to the area.
Should whatever tools they come up with, be it teleports, summoning stones outside dungons, bridges, ropes, or even a full blown WOW group finder take into consideration or even premote aiding players in making new friends? For example players right there in the open world dungon with them LFG at the time, as opposed to "keeping friends together" where we can JUST play with the same handfull of people for 50 levels and never branch out?