Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Bringing in a replacement to your group

    • 3852 posts
    April 17, 2019 8:39 AM PDT

    ((blissfully ignorant of reality.))

    You seem to have this really bad habit, shown repeatedly, of responding to rational and well worded argument that you happen to disagree with by attacking the person responding. It leads to back-and-forths as people respond in kind and makes a lot more work for Kilsin cleaning up threads. PLEASE stop this and just respond to the points being made (preferably not over and over and over making the same responses).

    • 612 posts
    April 17, 2019 7:45 PM PDT

    Tanix said: When it was my rotation to be on call, I would only group in dungeon locations that were easier to get to or group in the outside world with some friends for exp. I also would let my group know that I was not reliable and so could not get engaged into something I was to be relied on. I act with such responsibility even to this day, even bypassing playing a game if I can not commit or give it reasonable attention. What I don't do is expect the game developers to make the game around me, because I am not the only one who plays the game. That would not be very adult of me. /shrug

    One thing to keep in mind though is that while You or I might be considerate and plan our time and deliver fair expectations to our groups, the majority of players out there are not always going to have the same thoughtfullness.

    Aradune did not bring up this concept to try and cater to people who are not thoughtful, but rather to protect the rest of the group from those types of people. Think of how much it would frustrate you if you were the one in the group who got abandoned by somebody who never told you that they might need to leave early. Now imagine if this happened to you over and over again every day, group after group.

    It's only smart planning for Aradune to suggest idea's for helping groups to deal with this unfortunate situation. Yes in a perfect world all players would be kind enough to think of how their actions will effect the other gamers, but we all know how common that actually is on the internet. Dev's need to make plans for the fact that it will be much more common that many players will not think of others when they make their plans.

    So instead of arguing against any type of help from the Dev's to deal with this, instead perhaps we could focus on what would be least impactful regarding the obvious problems that you and others have already brought up when such features are used.

    • 1033 posts
    April 17, 2019 9:29 PM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Tanix said: When it was my rotation to be on call, I would only group in dungeon locations that were easier to get to or group in the outside world with some friends for exp. I also would let my group know that I was not reliable and so could not get engaged into something I was to be relied on. I act with such responsibility even to this day, even bypassing playing a game if I can not commit or give it reasonable attention. What I don't do is expect the game developers to make the game around me, because I am not the only one who plays the game. That would not be very adult of me. /shrug

    One thing to keep in mind though is that while You or I might be considerate and plan our time and deliver fair expectations to our groups, the majority of players out there are not always going to have the same thoughtfullness.

    Aradune did not bring up this concept to try and cater to people who are not thoughtful, but rather to protect the rest of the group from those types of people. Think of how much it would frustrate you if you were the one in the group who got abandoned by somebody who never told you that they might need to leave early. Now imagine if this happened to you over and over again every day, group after group.

    It's only smart planning for Aradune to suggest idea's for helping groups to deal with this unfortunate situation. Yes in a perfect world all players would be kind enough to think of how their actions will effect the other gamers, but we all know how common that actually is on the internet. Dev's need to make plans for the fact that it will be much more common that many players will not think of others when they make their plans.

    So instead of arguing against any type of help from the Dev's to deal with this, instead perhaps we could focus on what would be least impactful regarding the obvious problems that you and others have already brought up when such features are used.

    I have grouped with those types before GoofyWarriorGuy, and you know what happend? They got black listed by the group. That is what happens in a reputation based game. If you are a flake, don't take the group seriously (ie respect the fact that other people have planned, or put aside time to play), then you won't be asked to group again with those people. You will begin to be known as a flake and it will become difficult for you to find groups. That is what it means to play in a socially driven game.

    So I am not worried about how some disrespectful person might stick it to me in a group and leave us hanging as that will catch up with them fast.

    • 1033 posts
    April 17, 2019 9:33 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    ((blissfully ignorant of reality.))

    You seem to have this really bad habit, shown repeatedly, of responding to rational and well worded argument that you happen to disagree with by attacking the person responding. It leads to back-and-forths as people respond in kind and makes a lot more work for Kilsin cleaning up threads. PLEASE stop this and just respond to the points being made (preferably not over and over and over making the same responses).

    If you can't handle criticism, then don't debate with other people. My response to that poster was in response to the complaining about people disagreeing. They were expecting that discourse should meet their own personal standard.

    Stop trying to socially correct me, it is getting a bit tiresome. You and a couple others go into emotional tantrums constantly and then proceed to admonish me because your feelings are hurt. Grow up, act like an adult and stop thinking that if someone disagrees and shows your point to be weak or unsound that it means they are attacking you personally. It is anti-social, it is thin-skinned and emotionally narcissistic.

     


    This post was edited by Tanix at April 17, 2019 9:34 PM PDT
    • 153 posts
    April 18, 2019 7:38 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Tanix said: When it was my rotation to be on call, I would only group in dungeon locations that were easier to get to or group in the outside world with some friends for exp. I also would let my group know that I was not reliable and so could not get engaged into something I was to be relied on. I act with such responsibility even to this day, even bypassing playing a game if I can not commit or give it reasonable attention. What I don't do is expect the game developers to make the game around me, because I am not the only one who plays the game. That would not be very adult of me. /shrug

    One thing to keep in mind though is that while You or I might be considerate and plan our time and deliver fair expectations to our groups, the majority of players out there are not always going to have the same thoughtfullness.

    Aradune did not bring up this concept to try and cater to people who are not thoughtful, but rather to protect the rest of the group from those types of people. Think of how much it would frustrate you if you were the one in the group who got abandoned by somebody who never told you that they might need to leave early. Now imagine if this happened to you over and over again every day, group after group.

    It's only smart planning for Aradune to suggest idea's for helping groups to deal with this unfortunate situation. Yes in a perfect world all players would be kind enough to think of how their actions will effect the other gamers, but we all know how common that actually is on the internet. Dev's need to make plans for the fact that it will be much more common that many players will not think of others when they make their plans.

    So instead of arguing against any type of help from the Dev's to deal with this, instead perhaps we could focus on what would be least impactful regarding the obvious problems that you and others have already brought up when such features are used.

    I have grouped with those types before GoofyWarriorGuy, and you know what happend? They got black listed by the group. That is what happens in a reputation based game. If you are a flake, don't take the group seriously (ie respect the fact that other people have planned, or put aside time to play), then you won't be asked to group again with those people. You will begin to be known as a flake and it will become difficult for you to find groups. That is what it means to play in a socially driven game.

    So I am not worried about how some disrespectful person might stick it to me in a group and leave us hanging as that will catch up with them fast.

    I agree with Tanix here, the filter shouldnt be automated it should be by the players hand themselves, automated systems are extremely degenerative.

    • 1 posts
    April 19, 2019 11:00 AM PDT

    I think there are some really bad ways this could be implemented and also some good ways.  What I consider to be bad would be near infinite teleportation of new group members into the group from either the dungeon or in the world at large.  It would make the world very small and you would rarely get to do dungeon crawls as long as you played in peak hours and in zones with static camps.  You would just get teleported from camp to camp whenever you played and not really get to explore a dungeon.

    I was thinking of a compromise that I think most people might be happy with.  As you level up and start doing dungeons you can do a quest to obtain either an apprentice’s summoning ring or a master’s summoning ring.  These rings would have be obtained by a quest and given out by a neutral group so everyone can do it.  Anyway, the rings or whatever, would have 1 charge a day and 4 or 5 ring wearers would be needed to summon another ring wearer from that same zone.  The master’s ring of summoning could be obtained by a wizard, druid, or summoner as they are the classes that summon things and teleport people.  The master ring wearer would initiate a summons and then his group mates would get a prompt such as "SUMMONER X has initiated a summons, would you like to lend your aid in summoning PALADIN Y to your group."  At that point the group either approves or disapproves of the choice and charges are spent or not.  No summoning could take place without a master’s ring.

    I'm thinking this might be a good compromise as it would allow group member summoning without leading to endless summoning chains that make travel trivial.  It makes most people do dungeon crawls but lets a percent be summoned and it will keep groups going longer but not endlessly.  It also makes summoning and teleporting classes more valuable deep in dungeons.  I'm not attached to the details but I think a compromise such as this could be reached.

    • 90 posts
    April 19, 2019 11:25 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    See, this is where I guess we have to disagree on the very core of the issue.

    I don't see that replacing a group member with some tool is needed. In fact, I think it should be HARD to replace a group member specifically because grouping in a dungeon is not some common easy thing, it is a difficult task. So, if the dungeon is easy to get around in (EQ had some dungeons where the camps resulted in clearing paths so people could get around carefully with some tools, which is why I liked Test with its low population as every dungeon was risky and a task to work into), then people will be able to get a replacement easier. That said, if it is a hard dungeon, deep within a very hard to get area, then it should ALWAYS be hard to add people to it. That is the trade off. 

    The problem with this type of tool is it invalidates the hard to get to areas by allowing people to more easily handle the situation. I think that is counter to good game play, counter to risk vs reward, counter to the whole point of a deep, dark and difficult area. There has to be some areas in the game where players need to plan for large chunks of time to be able to experience the content and spells like CotH conflict with that goal. 

    We should be VERY suspicious of any type of feature that can damage that risk vs reward game play balance or we end up right back in the hands of a moden mainstream MMO where "inconvenience" is the key development goal. 

    Call of the Hero was one of those spells I think was a bad choice by Verant and I think it (among many others I could go into) is something that conflicts with the entire premise of "risk vs reward" and "meaningful" game play. 

     

     

    Just seems some of the hardcore people are anti mage/summoner like most people were during EQ. THe Summoner kept getting nerfed into oblivion while other classes had ways to help thm get to groups deep in a dungeon. CotH should be a benefit not only to the summoner but any group that desides to take a summoner over a wizard. Every class has there pros and cons. A rogue will be able to sneak his way to a group, a wizard can invis, a enchanter can disguise or calm creatures to get there. Tanks could just bullrush their way there and die near the group to be rezzed, Monks, SK, Necros could feigh death their way to the group. 

    For once the summor seems like it could be a desired class to have in groups, Imagine sending out shouts looking for a party member replacment and telling other there is a summoner in the group that will be able to get them to the group with no problem. THis isn't simplifying content. The group already worked their way to where they were and earned it. It doesn't help groups get deeper into the dungeon it just helps replace party members if they get disconnected or have to leave for an emergency. 

    Games not even out yet and people already want to nerf the summoner. 

     

    Look people keept talking about the abuse of CotH, all you need is a 1 hour recast timer. It can't be abused with that kind of timer and it doesn't need to be some ridiculas time like 24 hour recast. This would give the summoner the ability to change out party member once an hour but not be able to camp a spot and charge people to summon whole parties like in EQ. A guild would have to have like 20 summoners parked if they wanted to summon a raid to deeper into a raid zone instead of just the one summoner. 


    This post was edited by Sunglare at April 19, 2019 11:48 AM PDT
    • 90 posts
    April 19, 2019 11:43 AM PDT

    Fides said:

    Same thing. 

     

    You want to walk uphill in the snow both ways too? There's nothing anti-social about some of the suggestions here, so long as it's not cross-server and open a page and automatically join a group and nobody talks.

    You can still socialize by walking up to a stone and summoning someone you've been talking to since the Cleric mentioned they had 5/10/30 minutes left.

    I can argue the other side too, maybe the party should retire for awhile after grinding for 3 hours in a dungeon and their Cleric has to go. Maybe it's time for a break, feed yourself, hug your animal, whatever it may be.

    There's nothing "Adult" about it. Do you drive to work? Be an adult and walk. Use a shopping cart? Nothing adult about that either. Sounds like toxic masculinity to me. Why does it sound like that? Because you can't compromise. It's all or nothing. 

    -People don't want a WoW-style queue system and want your replacements to run 30 minutes there.

    -Others aren't pushing a queue system, but want a more convenient way to get there via stones/COTH/summons, etc.

     

    Let's discuss a compromise and meet in the middle somewhere.

     

    Toxic masculinity isn't a thing, It's just an insult to demonize men. 

    • 223 posts
    April 20, 2019 9:47 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Tanix said: When it was my rotation to be on call, I would only group in dungeon locations that were easier to get to or group in the outside world with some friends for exp. I also would let my group know that I was not reliable and so could not get engaged into something I was to be relied on. I act with such responsibility even to this day, even bypassing playing a game if I can not commit or give it reasonable attention. What I don't do is expect the game developers to make the game around me, because I am not the only one who plays the game. That would not be very adult of me. /shrug

    One thing to keep in mind though is that while You or I might be considerate and plan our time and deliver fair expectations to our groups, the majority of players out there are not always going to have the same thoughtfullness.

    Aradune did not bring up this concept to try and cater to people who are not thoughtful, but rather to protect the rest of the group from those types of people. Think of how much it would frustrate you if you were the one in the group who got abandoned by somebody who never told you that they might need to leave early. Now imagine if this happened to you over and over again every day, group after group.

    It's only smart planning for Aradune to suggest idea's for helping groups to deal with this unfortunate situation. Yes in a perfect world all players would be kind enough to think of how their actions will effect the other gamers, but we all know how common that actually is on the internet. Dev's need to make plans for the fact that it will be much more common that many players will not think of others when they make their plans.

    So instead of arguing against any type of help from the Dev's to deal with this, instead perhaps we could focus on what would be least impactful regarding the obvious problems that you and others have already brought up when such features are used.

    I have grouped with those types before GoofyWarriorGuy, and you know what happend? They got black listed by the group. That is what happens in a reputation based game. If you are a flake, don't take the group seriously (ie respect the fact that other people have planned, or put aside time to play), then you won't be asked to group again with those people. You will begin to be known as a flake and it will become difficult for you to find groups. That is what it means to play in a socially driven game.

    So I am not worried about how some disrespectful person might stick it to me in a group and leave us hanging as that will catch up with them fast.

    My thoughts the same Tanix. Reputation matters.

    • 78 posts
    April 20, 2019 2:18 PM PDT

    I believe a system like this is already in place, I believe as the OP stated they want a group to be able to bring in a replacement regardless of if the group has a class with COTH or whatnot. I think people are forgetting what really affects longevity, and some modern conveniences aren't part of that. I think the argument shouldn't be whether or not this should exist but simply how, and my suggestion is within the same dungeon / zone, with a debuff to all that utilize the feature of calling in a replacement like 6 hour debuff or something to not be able to "port to group", or "call hero".

    Arguing so strongly against these modern conveniences is going to have you trashing the game hard at release, when it could very well be the best game on the market. We don't realize that people will find a way to do all these things that you dislike whether the devs allow it or not? People will find a way to make this game "pay to win" as is every other game regardless of the in game purchases - hello to account for sale, hello to gold/platinum for sale. Regardless of if these things are happening or available in game they'll be happening or available outside of the game. Oh great you blacklisted a rogue, you had your whole guild do the same it doesnt really matter, they'll get by one way or another the important part is how can we ensure that this doesn't affect us that much? By allowing some of these Q.o.L. features to exist is how.


    This post was edited by TLogan at April 20, 2019 2:29 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    April 20, 2019 3:54 PM PDT

    Wolfsong said:

    For the 8 or so years I played FFXI (pre-Abyssea, when traditional grouping was still the norm), replacing group members was never an issue, unless there simply was no one else available as a replacement.

    Basically:
    Someone would join the group.
    If their time was limited in any way, they'd usually say so in advance.
    When it was nearing time for someone to leave, they'd announce it to the group
    Some Group Leads would occasionally ask if anyone needs to leave soon, so they could start looking.
    The Party Lead and/or the departing member would search for someone to replace them
    The replacement would arrive, the departing player would say {Thanks} for the group, the group would say goodbye
    Departing player leaves, replacement joins
    Replacement says {Hello!} to the group. Group {Welcomes} the new member.
    Group continues leveling.

    For the replacement player, they would be told what camp we were at, and would get there by Chocobo, or on foot using Sneak and Invis.  Most players back then had the fore-thought and courtesy to be prepared for such situations.

    This is how it worked in 9 out of 10 groups I was in. Occasionally you'd have the unexpected departure, but it was the exception, not the rule. In the event of an unexpected departure, we'd look for a replacement, and just continue xp'ing if we could, albeit at a slower pace, 'til a replacement arrived. I've been in groups that went almost literally all night, just replacing members as they had to leave.

    No special tools or systems were required. Just basic human communication and decency. It worked just fine.

    I personally see nothing wrong with that approach and think resources for some kind of "player replacement system" would be better used elsewhere.

    IMO, the push to replace "community interaction" with "convenience tools" in the genre has made people reliant on them. Now many think they're necessary. They aren't. Humans have everything they need to organize, maintain, participate and enjoy group activity.

    It really paid to be in a group that set expectations and knew how to communicate.  Sometimes people would bail early and that was fine but for the most part, players would appreciate the deeper sense of communication/responsibility/reliability and fill up their friends list with people they knew they could count on in the future.  The biggest issue I remember from FFXI was when a replacement simply wasn't available.  Even if someone wasn't sure how to get to a specific destination, the group would backtrack and meet up with them somewhere along the way.  Travel was meaningful and dangerous and that's why the leveling journey and community was so amazing in that game.  There were certainly times where things would go wrong and frustrate people but that's what ultimately lead to players setting higher expectations of each other and prioritizing a style of play that minimized mistakes and maximized coordination/help/accountability.  FFXI also had a true open world experience where players couldn't lock down camps.  Since the world was truly open and contested, it wasn't really a big deal if a group needed to backtrack to meet up with a replacement.  You never knew who or what was around the corner ... real adventure, intrigue, and mystery.  Players didn't go out of their way to avoid each other via a camp check when they entered a zone.  The "Player vs Environment" ruleset considered the world an open/shared space and other players were part of the environment.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 20, 2019 4:08 PM PDT
    • 1033 posts
    April 22, 2019 11:17 PM PDT

    TLogan said:

    I believe a system like this is already in place, I believe as the OP stated they want a group to be able to bring in a replacement regardless of if the group has a class with COTH or whatnot. I think people are forgetting what really affects longevity, and some modern conveniences aren't part of that. I think the argument shouldn't be whether or not this should exist but simply how, and my suggestion is within the same dungeon / zone, with a debuff to all that utilize the feature of calling in a replacement like 6 hour debuff or something to not be able to "port to group", or "call hero".

    Arguing so strongly against these modern conveniences is going to have you trashing the game hard at release, when it could very well be the best game on the market. We don't realize that people will find a way to do all these things that you dislike whether the devs allow it or not? People will find a way to make this game "pay to win" as is every other game regardless of the in game purchases - hello to account for sale, hello to gold/platinum for sale. Regardless of if these things are happening or available in game they'll be happening or available outside of the game. Oh great you blacklisted a rogue, you had your whole guild do the same it doesnt really matter, they'll get by one way or another the important part is how can we ensure that this doesn't affect us that much? By allowing some of these Q.o.L. features to exist is how.

    Why bother then? I mean, you are essentially saying "can't stop it, might as well just accept it!"

    As for the best game on the market, that isn't much of a feat as all the games out are basically garbage for the inept and lazy, so the bar doesn't have to be set very high to be better than them.

    The way you make it a good game is not compromising with garbage design and mainstream "modern conveniences" are garbage design. Every MMO I watched turn to garbage over the years were killed by the same circular QoL arguments.

    Ii is a cycle of insanity. Players demand QoL, game becomes boring, players leave to new game, demand QoL, then get bored, leave that game... rinse.. repeat.. and yet never realizing they are the ones killing the games. /shrug

    • 153 posts
    April 23, 2019 9:25 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    TLogan said:

    I believe a system like this is already in place, I believe as the OP stated they want a group to be able to bring in a replacement regardless of if the group has a class with COTH or whatnot. I think people are forgetting what really affects longevity, and some modern conveniences aren't part of that. I think the argument shouldn't be whether or not this should exist but simply how, and my suggestion is within the same dungeon / zone, with a debuff to all that utilize the feature of calling in a replacement like 6 hour debuff or something to not be able to "port to group", or "call hero".

    Arguing so strongly against these modern conveniences is going to have you trashing the game hard at release, when it could very well be the best game on the market. We don't realize that people will find a way to do all these things that you dislike whether the devs allow it or not? People will find a way to make this game "pay to win" as is every other game regardless of the in game purchases - hello to account for sale, hello to gold/platinum for sale. Regardless of if these things are happening or available in game they'll be happening or available outside of the game. Oh great you blacklisted a rogue, you had your whole guild do the same it doesnt really matter, they'll get by one way or another the important part is how can we ensure that this doesn't affect us that much? By allowing some of these Q.o.L. features to exist is how.

    Why bother then? I mean, you are essentially saying "can't stop it, might as well just accept it!"

    As for the best game on the market, that isn't much of a feat as all the games out are basically garbage for the inept and lazy, so the bar doesn't have to be set very high to be better than them.

    The way you make it a good game is not compromising with garbage design and mainstream "modern conveniences" are garbage design. Every MMO I watched turn to garbage over the years were killed by the same circular QoL arguments.

    Ii is a cycle of insanity. Players demand QoL, game becomes boring, players leave to new game, demand QoL, then get bored, leave that game... rinse.. repeat.. and yet never realizing they are the ones killing the games. /shrug

    I agree once again with tanix here, QoL is earned not gifted. The current market is being killed by players, the thing is if VR stays true to themselves and ignore the players suggesting things to make it easier for them they will find they attract more players and keep them around longer.

    • 612 posts
    April 24, 2019 12:16 AM PDT

    Tanix said: I have grouped with those types before GoofyWarriorGuy, and you know what happend? They got black listed by the group. That is what happens in a reputation based game. If you are a flake, don't take the group seriously (ie respect the fact that other people have planned, or put aside time to play), then you won't be asked to group again with those people. You will begin to be known as a flake and it will become difficult for you to find groups. That is what it means to play in a socially driven game.

    I get it... and I do agree that a players reputation is important.

    Yet this is not about Jerks who just say "Catch you later suckers!!" and abandons a group thus getting a bad reputation. There will be lots of times people have things that come up beyond their forseen expectations. If you just Black Listed them all as you put it, then it won't be long before most of the players out there are on your 'don't group' with list.

    If this was exactly how you played then you would very soon find you had nobody to group with, and instead you would constantly be rejecting groups because "Oh that guy had his mom come home early and told him to go do chores" and "Oh that guy has a baby and will probably have to go feed/change a diper" and "Oh can't group with that fool because he is always on call and will only stay 45 minutes".

    If you are really honest... there are probably plenty of people who you grouped with over the years who had to leave a group early, and you totally understood and didn't hold it against them. But it doesn't change the fact that it happend and you may have had to leave a dungeon or at least back out to the zoneline until you could replace that Tank/Cleric/Enchanter before breaking back in. In those old days you just had to deal with it. Aradune is just suggesting that maybe in Pantheon there could be some way to assist groups in those situations.

    I'm not saying that you have to agree with it... I understand that there are many out there who just want everything so hard core and will just say "Suck it up and deal with it". But Aradune was the one who suggested the idea, and he's saying that they do want to help groups deal with this. So I'm guessing it's going to happen. All I said was that maybe it's better to discuss the possible ways that it could be done safely without it being 'mass transport' or 'abuse city' instead of trying to convince us that it shouldn't be done at all.

    • 1033 posts
    April 24, 2019 4:25 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Tanix said: I have grouped with those types before GoofyWarriorGuy, and you know what happend? They got black listed by the group. That is what happens in a reputation based game. If you are a flake, don't take the group seriously (ie respect the fact that other people have planned, or put aside time to play), then you won't be asked to group again with those people. You will begin to be known as a flake and it will become difficult for you to find groups. That is what it means to play in a socially driven game.

    I get it... and I do agree that a players reputation is important.

    Yet this is not about Jerks who just say "Catch you later suckers!!" and abandons a group thus getting a bad reputation. There will be lots of times people have things that come up beyond their forseen expectations. If you just Black Listed them all as you put it, then it won't be long before most of the players out there are on your 'don't group' with list.

    If this was exactly how you played then you would very soon find you had nobody to group with, and instead you would constantly be rejecting groups because "Oh that guy had his mom come home early and told him to go do chores" and "Oh that guy has a baby and will probably have to go feed/change a diper" and "Oh can't group with that fool because he is always on call and will only stay 45 minutes".

    If you are really honest... there are probably plenty of people who you grouped with over the years who had to leave a group early, and you totally understood and didn't hold it against them. But it doesn't change the fact that it happend and you may have had to leave a dungeon or at least back out to the zoneline until you could replace that Tank/Cleric/Enchanter before breaking back in. In those old days you just had to deal with it. Aradune is just suggesting that maybe in Pantheon there could be some way to assist groups in those situations.

    I'm not saying that you have to agree with it... I understand that there are many out there who just want everything so hard core and will just say "Suck it up and deal with it". But Aradune was the one who suggested the idea, and he's saying that they do want to help groups deal with this. So I'm guessing it's going to happen. All I said was that maybe it's better to discuss the possible ways that it could be done safely without it being 'mass transport' or 'abuse city' instead of trying to convince us that it shouldn't be done at all.

    Case by case basis.

    If someone constantly does this, even if they have a legitimate reason, then that is on them and if they continue to get into groups to only do the same thing, then that is them essentially disregarding and disrespecting those they group with.

    I have grouped with people who I eventually refused to group with because even though they may have had a legitimate reason, they kept doing it over and over again which meant they didn't plan thier time well and/or they really didn't care if they dumped on the group.

    So, case by case basis.

    You can be pretty reliable in a game, it really just comes down to if you take that commitement seriously or not. I have known some say "Its a stupid game, I am not going to treat it as a serious commitiment" and as I said, fine.. but nor will I treat that player with any respect either.

    Putting in game cheats because players refuse to make time is not the solution, it is how we ended up with 15 min run dungeons, dalies, dungeon finders, and instant travel. I don't think there should be compromise with those who will not respect the time commitment with other people. After all, it is real people at the other end of that screen, not some computer character where you can turn it off and on at will. There is a responsibilty there and consequences to igoring that.

    Expecting game play to not be cirumvented by easy access mechanics is not "hard core", in fact it is a refusal to cater to "easy mode". That is the problem with games today, it isn't about them being hardcore or not, rather it is about them being entertainment simulators, not games.


    This post was edited by Tanix at April 24, 2019 4:29 AM PDT
    • 334 posts
    April 24, 2019 2:31 PM PDT

    I'm ambivalent about this, but I'd just emphasize the fact that any type of call ability should be carefully thought out. It could be fairly easy for some guilds/groups of players to abuse such a feature to perma-camp certain dungeons/mobs by cycling in new players when necessary. So, if such a feature was implemented in some form or another, I'd mititage the possibility for abuse by implementing a very long recast (24 hours or even more), having to use it in certain areas (maybe not inside the dungeon itself), etc.

    • 500 posts
    April 26, 2019 3:17 PM PDT

    What I'm saying is it's 20 years later, technology advances. Some of the things you speak of can be coded out by doing things such as completion flags, area timers and there are other methods. I'm sure Brad is familiar with everything you speak of and he and the other dev's probably know how they are going to work around the issue already. 

    Yep, you can do those, Trival loot code, level locking, daily timers, etc... 

    That is modern gaming design, social engineering, designing content to have people step right up, get their ticket, once they get their ticket, the machine pushes them on so the next guy can step in line and do the same all according to a perfect balance of social design.

    That is the essence of modern mainstream game design. 

    You can't code out human behavior, nor can you get everyone to accept in "equalty of outcome" in game play. Some people are going to find advantages, some are going to have more time, some are going to plan ahead, some are going to be better players, etc... 

    Code that out and you kill the game for people like me (and many others).  

    Exactly! +1


    This post was edited by Grymmlocke at April 26, 2019 3:17 PM PDT
    • 65 posts
    April 26, 2019 6:38 PM PDT

    Forget the fast travel in my opinion other than maybe a few class specific spells with very specific constraints to fit the situation. . Drop us in the game, let us figure it out. The original model of MMOs didnt have the ability to quickly get to where you need to go. Making it happen was part of the process. Corpse runs were part of the process. Sometimes they are miserable, and sometimes they dont work out but later on when you see each other in the game sometimes that terrible night in X dungeon trying to get to X camp has built a greater rapport between you then having actually succeeding in a successful camp.

    There is the technology to bypass all these issues and trivialize all the problems but I think redeveloping alot of these problems for social problem solving situations is an important part of the community that alot newer MMOs seem to be missing. It was us against the game and the game wasnt trying to help us make that any easier.

    Some days will be a good day, others may be frustrating. Nowadays, not only in gaming it feels like everyone feels like they are owed a success. Id love if we returned to "This is what it is, sink or swim. The resources are available, figure it out. No aplogies."

    I personally draw the line at any sort of issue that would cause a permenant loss of gear, but outside of that, make it happen. If you cant, dont expect it to. Dont commit to a 4 hour concentrated run if you have 2 hours to play and 3 toddlers in diapers during that time because its probably not going to work.

    Brad had said in an interview they have the player who needs to do 2 hour playtimes in mind so I will assume there will be bigger longer opportunities and shorter ones. Likely a variety to accomodate different circumstances. He has mentioned in a couple interviews they understand the lifestyle demands of the target audience so I doubt they will make all the content for the hardcore 6 hour run.


    This post was edited by Dissolution at April 26, 2019 6:41 PM PDT
    • 1033 posts
    April 29, 2019 8:27 AM PDT

    Dissolution said:

    Forget the fast travel in my opinion other than maybe a few class specific spells with very specific constraints to fit the situation. . Drop us in the game, let us figure it out. The original model of MMOs didnt have the ability to quickly get to where you need to go. Making it happen was part of the process. Corpse runs were part of the process. Sometimes they are miserable, and sometimes they dont work out but later on when you see each other in the game sometimes that terrible night in X dungeon trying to get to X camp has built a greater rapport between you then having actually succeeding in a successful camp.

    To this day I still am in contact with many of my friends in EQ (some we still play various games with) and we still laugh till we can't breathe at times talking about the various "bad days" we had in the game. Did we love it at the time? No, but it made us love the game itself even more because it was through those hardships that the game play had so much more meaning.

    EQ and games like EQ built communities, some that have lasted decades. Modern games... I can't even remember the names of people I played with.

    • 233 posts
    April 30, 2019 1:47 AM PDT

    I dont want something to be a chore for the sake of it.

    There should be a rare learnable spell to summon people to a location that requires 2 players.
    Having you run back to the entrance to use a stone isnt fun or challenging, its just annoying.
    People sometimes confuse annoying things as challening things.

    • 1399 posts
    April 30, 2019 6:29 AM PDT

    Grimseethe said:

    I dont want something to be a chore for the sake of it.

    You haven't been paying attention have you?

     

    Great post Dissolution and Tanix, I'm right there with you.

     

    • 696 posts
    April 30, 2019 7:16 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    Dissolution said:

    Forget the fast travel in my opinion other than maybe a few class specific spells with very specific constraints to fit the situation. . Drop us in the game, let us figure it out. The original model of MMOs didnt have the ability to quickly get to where you need to go. Making it happen was part of the process. Corpse runs were part of the process. Sometimes they are miserable, and sometimes they dont work out but later on when you see each other in the game sometimes that terrible night in X dungeon trying to get to X camp has built a greater rapport between you then having actually succeeding in a successful camp.

    To this day I still am in contact with many of my friends in EQ (some we still play various games with) and we still laugh till we can't breathe at times talking about the various "bad days" we had in the game. Did we love it at the time? No, but it made us love the game itself even more because it was through those hardships that the game play had so much more meaning.

    EQ and games like EQ built communities, some that have lasted decades. Modern games... I can't even remember the names of people I played with.

     

    Yes, it seems all the times that I remember in a game that was a fun time was never when it was easy. It was always when it stung. Like days were I deleveled 3 levels when I fell asleep at the keyboard with a bad bind. Happened twice in highhold pass. If I talk about how funny that is..people would say oh God no that would be horrible. Well yeah it was, but as time goes on it becomes a good story. That is why I am soo weary when people try to make layers of the game easier and dumbed down because it's hard or time consuming. Since I have played games a lot, and am an aspiring game designer, I found out through many games, like EQ, that there are several layers of intricacy in games that all add to each other, and when you start taking a few of the layers away the others crumble. It is truly a delicate craft, whether by accident or purposefully, to maintain a certain spirit of a certain archetype.

    • 78 posts
    April 30, 2019 7:36 AM PDT

    I see power leveling and the internet trivializing all content (quests, bosses, etc) to be a way bigger issue here than getting or being a replacement for a group so that they can continue having fun. In my opinion the problem with most of these games is having nothing left to strive for. If there's still something meaningful to obtain majority of us will continue playing. If we are just grinding for that next AA point and thats it, thats just not that meaningful. There NEEDS to be very rare gear, maybe RNG endgame gear though some are against it, regardless, it will keep us gunning for that perfect piece, even if its just 10AC, or 0.5% dodge better than that last breastplate, it matters when it comes to meaningful things to do.

    • 1033 posts
    April 30, 2019 9:03 AM PDT

    TLogan said:

    I see power leveling and the internet trivializing all content (quests, bosses, etc) to be a way bigger issue here than getting or being a replacement for a group so that they can continue having fun. In my opinion the problem with most of these games is having nothing left to strive for. If there's still something meaningful to obtain majority of us will continue playing. If we are just grinding for that next AA point and thats it, thats just not that meaningful. There NEEDS to be very rare gear, maybe RNG endgame gear though some are against it, regardless, it will keep us gunning for that perfect piece, even if its just 10AC, or 0.5% dodge better than that last breastplate, it matters when it comes to meaningful things to do.

     

    Depending on how things are implemented, power leveling can have a reduced effect. As for the internet, I don't use it. For instance, take Secret World. The game was filled with numerous puzzles that took thinking, effort and research to beat. Eventually, internet sites started providing all the cheats to the game, and this ruined the game for those who used it. Myself, I didn't use them. I would sit for hours at some puzzles working out the math, or the logic to a given problem. So in those aspects, as long as they are able to keep the cheating players from have too much of an effect on me, I am ok.

    As for the RNG issue, that was the nice thing about EQ. There were layers of play that did exactly what you are suggesting. When you have PH mobs, with rare spawns and rare items that drop from those rare spawns, all put within a system that has time in leveling, time in travel, downtime between fights, time in corpse recovery, etc... it provides meaning to play as everything becomes of value because it is not "easy" to obtain.

    • 1033 posts
    April 30, 2019 9:05 AM PDT

    Grimseethe said:

    I dont want something to be a chore for the sake of it.

    There should be a rare learnable spell to summon people to a location that requires 2 players.
    Having you run back to the entrance to use a stone isnt fun or challenging, its just annoying.
    People sometimes confuse annoying things as challening things.

     

    Failure is annoying, but if we design a game without failure, there is no point in playing it. What I am getting at is that hardship, failure, things that annoy us are a part of gaming. It is balance to the sucess side, for without a failure, success has no meaning.