So your saying you either want it all or nothing at all, wow well at least we know where you stand. the point of costmetic gear it to have you look good to you, not so much to others, becuase regardless of what you pick a lot if not most people aren't going to like it anyway, due to having a different opinion in taste so the whole i do it for others would fall short anyway, your jsut failing to admit that.
And again and again...
Riahuf22 said:So your saying you either want it all or nothing at all
Mis-representing me won't help. I don't "want it all". I'm happy to compromise, just not in a way that ruins what I want and gives you everything you want, which isn't a compromise. I am saying that, yes, *if* the appearance concept is ruined by a toggle, then I won't bother using it, so would prefer the development time not be, effectively, wasted. This is of course, just my opinion.
Riahuf22 said:wow well at least we know where you stand
You'd think so after soooo many posts explaining it, but no, you don't appear to get it.
Riahuf22 said:the point of costmetic gear it to have you look good to you, not so much to others
For some, yep. For all? Nope. You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. I admit I don't know for sure, but I feel confident that most people use appearance slots mostly to look good to others. You appear to know for sure, though? Got a source for that? And anyway, what percentage of people wanting appearance slots would it be fine to ruin it for so that 100% of purist/prestige/realist folks can have exactly what they want?
Riahuf22 said:becuase regardless of what you pick a lot if not most people aren't going to like it anyway, due to having a different opinion in taste so the whole i do it for others would fall short anyway
Another personal opinion stated as some kind of fact. I'm actually very confident in my ability to look good to others. Self-expression is always a risk though. That's part of the point of it. Someone *not* liking your look can be just as much a conversation starter and a shared experience as someone liking your look.
Are you suggesting that because my outfit might not look good to everyone it's somehow fine for other people to just not see it? Bizarre.
Riahuf22 said:your jsut failing to admit that.
Nah. I'm not the one presenting my opinions as fact. Quite the opposite. I have consistently admitted that my opinion is no more valid than others'. You, however, keep suggesting that my opinion is 'wrong' (or even 'greedy' at one point) somehow and keep on restating a solution that is perfect for you and not for me as if that is a fair compromise (and it literally, by the definition of the word, is not).
I don't really want to keep going over this. I do have a bit of a problem letting go when I think I'm being misrepresented or misunderstood, though. I'll try again.
EDIT: In fact I will stop this to-and-fro now. This is getting spammy, even though different points do come up.
disposalist said:Syrif said:The more I read about this..
No to appearance slots. Sounds terrible.
If there is a toggle? Yeah, sounds terrible. Pointless and confusing. I'd prefer no appearance slots, too, if that's the case.
Yeah, all-together it’s all sounding pretty bad.
I am stunned to find so many in this community against cosmetic gear, transmog or any other kind of appearance-oriented feature. The reasons behind the arguments against this honestly make me wonder whether this is the mature gaming community I thought it was. For the RP subcommunity in particular, this seems very odd.
After 12+ pages of this discussion I still don't get why many are against the idea. "I want to see what you've earned" is a pretty selfish reason to not want someone else to enjoy their experience. The no-ogres-in-tutus argument is a non-starter; Do you really think VR is going to add tutus to the game? If there was to be an appearance system, VR is unlikely to add appearance gear that is so outlandish as to compete with the Asian MMOs for the Worst Design Ever award.
I've really enjoyed the appearance system in other MMOs. I'll spend ridiculous amounts of time to acquire a single piece of a set and wear the gear proudly. If I can, at level 50, continue to use a really awesome looking weapon I got at level 12 just for appearance because my much better weapon looks terrible, while still actually using my higher level weapon, then I'm a happier player. How does that harm your game at all?
And I'm against a toggle that lets me decide how another player appears. One in my client that toggles how *I* appear to others is fine but seems pointless. Too much of this discussion sounds like self-centered control freaking. Let others enjoy the game their way, not yours.
disposalist said:
If there is a toggle? Yeah, sounds terrible. Pointless and confusing. I'd prefer no appearance slots, too, if that's the case.
I agree with you in principle. I think appearance slots should be handled the exact same way as /hidehelm. It either hides my helmet for everyone or the feature shouldn't exist. Players don't get their own toggle to override how my character appears in the virtual world.
Whether or not shared experiences are better or worse is surely up for debate. In the context of Pantheon ... they are objectively better. There are plenty of online games that emphasize a solitary experience. Pantheon is supposed to be a difference-maker in the MMORPG arena ... where shared experiences are emphasized as a defining trait of the game. Welcome to the open-world! Shared space. Shared resources. Shared experiences. A shared experience amplifies the sensations we feel and our ability to recollect them. This brings up the age-old question: "If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?"
Per Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest
"What is the difference between what something is, and how it appears? – e.g., "sound is the variation of pressure that propagates through matter as a wave"
Perhaps the most important topic the riddle offers is the division between perception of an object and how an object really is. If a tree exists outside of perception then there is no way for us to know that the tree exists. So then, what do we mean by 'existence', what is the difference between perception and reality? Also, people may also say, if the tree exists outside of perception (as common sense would dictate), then it will produce sound waves. However, these sound waves will not actually sound like anything. Sound as it is mechanically understood will occur, but sound, as it is understood by sensation, will not occur. So then, how is it known that 'sound as it is mechanically understood' will occur if that sound is not perceived?"
The conundrum we face on this thread is that some folks are more concerned about "mechanical understanding" than "sensational understanding" -- while this a fair viewpoint, I don't think it aligns with the underlying goal of promoting a "shared experience." The main issue here is that the toggle in question gives other players agency over the sensational impact that my character brings to the world. There should be consistency in the logic that governs how immersive the world is, and how important shared experiences are. Again, I would fall back to the /hidehelm command -- we have to decide which is more important; the mechanical understanding of not wearing a helmet, or the sensational understanding. Allowing another player to ignore the sensational understanding of why I hide my helmet, in favor of mechanical understanding, is pretty ridiculous. We no longer have a shared experience in that situation. The events taking place in the world lose substance when the sensations are not shared, and our ability to mutually recollect and tell stories has been compromised.
Sabot said:I think I have changed my mind. I am going to be against appearance armor slots. So no need for a toggle. If you want to change your appearance of course you can, by swaping out the armor your are wearing for anoter one. If how you look to everyone else is so important to you then you have to make a decision, wear the better peice of gear or wear the pretty one.
While I am sure the devs will not have santa hats and candy cane sword in the game at launch or maybe even ever there is no way to predict what will happen later. I want this to be a go to game for me for years. Having appearance slots is just the doorway to the silly stuff. It won't be long before people are demaning nicer or sillier things for appearance. I don't know if they will give in but the temptation for easy money will be there.
Nailed IT!
Hence why i said "You give them an inch and they'll take a mile"
That's the current state of modern mmo that most of use are fleeing from....
AbsoluteTerror said:Sabot said:I think I have changed my mind. I am going to be against appearance armor slots. So no need for a toggle. If you want to change your appearance of course you can, by swaping out the armor your are wearing for anoter one. If how you look to everyone else is so important to you then you have to make a decision, wear the better peice of gear or wear the pretty one.
While I am sure the devs will not have santa hats and candy cane sword in the game at launch or maybe even ever there is no way to predict what will happen later. I want this to be a go to game for me for years. Having appearance slots is just the doorway to the silly stuff. It won't be long before people are demaning nicer or sillier things for appearance. I don't know if they will give in but the temptation for easy money will be there.
Nailed IT!
Hence why i said "You give them an inch and they'll take a mile"
That's the current state of modern mmo that most of use are fleeing from....
Yep, exactly! I agree. If history is to tell us anything, it’s that if something such as this is so controversial, it’s best to leave it out of game!
i know what. make it where appearence slot always show. then let alchemists have an elixir of true sight(allows to see actual equipment) so as a drug dealer, i mean, a pharmicist, i can make monay. btw the reagents for this should include 1 blood of each race, which is obtainable through pvp. :D
there always on unless players buy my drugs, i mean elixirs, of true sight.
win win.
Syrif said:AbsoluteTerror said:Sabot said:I think I have changed my mind. I am going to be against appearance armor slots. So no need for a toggle. If you want to change your appearance of course you can, by swaping out the armor your are wearing for anoter one. If how you look to everyone else is so important to you then you have to make a decision, wear the better peice of gear or wear the pretty one.
While I am sure the devs will not have santa hats and candy cane sword in the game at launch or maybe even ever there is no way to predict what will happen later. I want this to be a go to game for me for years. Having appearance slots is just the doorway to the silly stuff. It won't be long before people are demaning nicer or sillier things for appearance. I don't know if they will give in but the temptation for easy money will be there.
Nailed IT!
Hence why i said "You give them an inch and they'll take a mile"
That's the current state of modern mmo that most of use are fleeing from....
Yep, exactly! I agree. If history is to tell us anything, it’s that if something such as this is so controversial, it’s best to leave it out of game!
this is tyrannical!!!!! i should be able to freely express myself and share my self image with the WORLD!!!!
freeeedooommmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!
buy my drugs of true sight thank you ;D
I have mixed feelings on the subject. On one hand, I feel like armor and weapons should have their own unique identity and the developers have the right to have their artwork showcased. On the other hand as a player, I understand that there can be some really ugly weapons/ armor sets that you just really don't want to look at for long periods of time. Overall I think that the presence of a transmog system offers more positive benefits than negative benefits.
The only major downside to transmog comes in when you start considering PvP situations. In these situations not being able to accurately determine what someone has equipped can be life or death and in a highly competitive match, it can lead to an unfair advantage.
There have been a number of suggestions involving the option to toggle off seeing appearance changes. I think that this feature would give players more agency and allow them to experience the game the way they want to experience the game as well as remove any issues in PvP.
Trigger words are being used to exploit gullibility and years of frustration with the MMO genre. The strawman fallacy on this thread is probably the worst I have ever seen on this forum. People are inventing slippery slopes and portraying them as facts based on unsubstantiated correlations. Santa hats and candy cane swords will not be excluded from Pantheon as a result of removing appearance slots. If I were to create an example of the logic that has been used on nearly every page of this thread, it would sound like this:
"Leveling to max is going to be challenging in Pantheon. This means that a lot of people will eventually start complaining about how difficult it is to level, and that level boosts will inevitably be sold in a cash shop. As a result, it is imperative that we remove the bard class from the game since they exacerbate the issue of enabling easier leveling."
I don’t think seeing where appearance slots is headed is what’s gullible. Lol. No Santa hatz, no candy canez, no gnomez with blingz plz. (Etc.)
We get it you guys keep saying we aren't compromising, but to be honest you guys haven't brought one up either only saying you don't want a toggle which by your own logic makes it 100% your way, as for a toggle makes it 100% our way, to a point even though you can still acquire cosmetic gear and enjoy the way you look, which is an important feature to it and to other that have the toggle on. we have een suggested RP servers to not have this option available, which wasn't enough you still want more. So, where we have compromised twice one with the toggle, which of course with your stubborness you say its isn't one even though it is just not one your happy with, and servers that have is perma cosmetic gear, you still keep fighting the fact their shouldn't be a toggle, when the answer is right in front of you, if you don't want a toggle join a rp server, bam than we're both happy everyone ses your costmetic gear and i have my toggle on a server your not even on, how is this so hard to understand.
Ill try again to see if we can break up this merry go round.
What if we break the idea of cosmetic into:
Costumes (The more outlandish stuff that can be seasonally fun)
Cosmetic gear (items that are thematically appropriate any only have the function of over writing your equipped items appearance)
Transmog (Combining two real items to have the appearance of one and stats of another)
Color/layer modifications within a reasonable range on the same base 3d model
Costumes I could see either never implemented or restricted to safe/event areas (really just for parties and goofing off) entering an area where they can be worn is basically accepting that they will be worn but if you don't want to see them don't go to that specific places as its about the costumes anyway.
Cosmetic gear: I'm not a huge fan of items that only have cosmetic value but in some ways its no different than Transmog. What I could see is maybe all items have “adornment slots” where things like combat medals and sashes and the like could be attached to an as dropped item.
Transmog I am personally a fan of so long as there is an inspect tool that shows me a characters rough total stats that cannot be turned off. There are lots of replay benefits to Transmog.
Color/Layer. I really hope all crafting allows for some level off appearance modification and in turn I hope that all items can access that level of customization through a processes.
Of these which do you need to have a toggle on and which are you ok with being always on and what stipulations would either be under?
i have read the debate and it was umm...intense and interesting. i agreed with Riahuf22 as giving each indiviual control of how they see others on their screen is important for community building, long-term player committment, profits, contents, etc.
i think the option of having 3 server is good but costly though...
1: normal
2: pvp
3: rp
With the toggle system in place you can have both world example:
RP player: wear Glory Bronze Plate (fashion slot) over the Scorpion Harness toggle "on"
Non-RP player: have toggle "off" only see RP player in Scorpion Harness
Other players: Have toggle "on" and see both world..
This dosent effect anyone gameplay persay (farming, Grouping, questing, etc) but the only thing that effect is their "feelings" that ONE guy/gal cant see them wearing Glory Bronze Plate, thats what i got from reading this massive agreed/disagreed disccusion..
edit: you can say that the toggle benefit the Non-RP player 100% and unfair to RP player because he cant see him wearing Glory Bronze Plate or vise-versa
The best thing is not to make any fashion slot, out of place seasonal event gear/items, and no toggles.
Here another example: two kids, one wants a pizza and the other wants a hamburger.....
I buy them a bag of cheetoes chips
Trasak said:Cosmetic gear: I'm not a huge fan of items that only have cosmetic value but in some ways its no different than Transmog. What I could see is maybe all items have “adornment slots” where things like combat medals and sashes and the like could be attached to an as dropped item.
I think this is a misconception. If the game were to use "appearance slots" then there is no such thing as "cosmetic gear." There would be no items "that only have cosmetic value" -- the items would still retain their stats ... they just wouldn't apply while being used in an appearance slot. Instead of creating assets that are purposely dubbed as "cosmetic gear" and then placing them in the world, the perception of what players would want to equip in an appearance slot is 100% player-driven. This means that the level 20 bloodstone breastplate has value as both an adventuring item and an appearance item. Some players may want the item for the stats while other players may want it for the appearance. This creates a really interesting dynamic because it allows low-level players to get their hands on rare gear from their respective tiers that could be highly sought after from high-level players. It changes the dynamic of perceived value, particularly for items that players deem as worthy of using in an appearance slot.
There is the argument that a level 20 player may not appreciate the idea of the bloodstone breastplate having a different "relative value" to someone that wants to use it only for the appearance. One could argue that because that item has an increased perceived value for high-level players who want to use it in an appearance slot, it makes it more difficult to acquire for those who want to use it for adventuring. While that is a fair concern, it is offset by the idea that the same level 20 player can acquire the breastplate through gameplay. They aren't forced to buy it. In fact, if someone is short on funds, they may purposely try to farm for that bloodstone breastplate in an effort to sell it rather than equip it. Maybe the perceived value is so high that they could flip it around and buy multiple pieces of armor, a weapon, and some extra supplies. All of this creates variance in the market place as it relates to supply/demand. The value of our items would be far more contextual rather than being throttled by the typical stat-comparison philosophy that governs how we equip ourselves. I may be willing to spend twice as much for the rubicite plate helmet than any other person on the server would if it's the last piece I need to complete my set.
I think we're mostly on the same page with how we look at things but there is definitely a difference between transmog and appearance slots. Since appearance slots didn't appear on your list, I wanted to make sure that the difference between "cosmetic gear" and "appearance slots" is properly identified. Allowing low-level players to interact with high-level players in mutually beneficial ways is great for community. The idea that a low-level player could get their hands on something that a high-level player would want is extremely compelling. It goes a long way toward making players feel that the world has plenty of valuable content rather than all of the good stuff being at end-game.
here's my interpetation up to this point i'll stop posting on this thread afterwards:
always on allows a freedom of expression of one's self interpetation to the world.
always off allows the developer to remain true to the world they envision.
we can say that the ability to customize one's appeareance is a luxury and in no way should affect core gameplay, but it subtley does in the sense of being able to assess the performance capabilities of a character is muddled. this is specifically for raid, party or guild leaders who organize events for core gameplay to summarize the strength of the group.
this is not including emergent gameplay of rp and pvp, which in no case, should be a factor.
as a side note:
rp favours individual interpetation, hence always on is desired.
pvp favours clear translation of information, hence always off is desired.
if the toggle feature can't be agreed upon, then it is better to not have it all to in order to maintain the vision of the developer has set out for the aesthetics of the game.
i'll end with this to keep my outlook neutral since i tend to push a pvp narrative:
the core foundation of pve should be the crux of the decision for always on, always off or toggle.
oneADseven said:Trasak said:Cosmetic gear: I'm not a huge fan of items that only have cosmetic value but in some ways its no different than Transmog. What I could see is maybe all items have “adornment slots” where things like combat medals and sashes and the like could be attached to an as dropped item.
I think this is a misconception. If the game were to use "appearance slots" then there is no such thing as "cosmetic gear." There would be no items "that only have cosmetic value" -- the items would still retain their stats ... they just wouldn't apply while being used in an appearance slot. Instead of creating assets that are purposely dubbed as "cosmetic gear" and then placing them in the world, the perception of what players would want to equip in an appearance slot is 100% player-driven. This means that the level 20 bloodstone breastplate has value as both an adventuring item and an appearance item. Some players may want the item for the stats while other players may want it for the appearance. This creates a really interesting dynamic because it allows low-level players to get their hands on rare gear from their respective tiers that could be highly sought after from high-level players. It changes the dynamic of perceived value, particularly for items that players deem as worthy of using in an appearance slot.
This can exsist even with a toggle, like literally every word of it, so again i don't see the big deal.
Look if i decide to have my cosmetic toggle off it doesn't affect your gameplay, or the way you see the world, as you are still clearly seeing the world the way you want to, regardless if you are choosing the same filter as me or not, again becuase it does completely nothing to you, in anyway shape or form. If you make it to where i can't have this toggle than i am constantly bothered with something i dont want to see, and feel like to a point i'm getting slapped in the face everytime i realize they aren't wearing what they are showing. This in no way is fair to me and this directly affects my gameplay in a lot of ways, as i will realize it everytime, so in this regard i would take the lesser of the two evils and make the person who is seeing the game through their eyes control what they see, its the best solution, as someone said their isn't really a wrong or right answer but their is a better answer and supporting each individual on their own preference, is better than someone else forcing another person to see something they dont want to.
Riahuf22 said:This can exsist even with a toggle, like literally every word of it, so again i don't see the big deal.
The "big deal" has been pointed out by quite a few people in this thread. Namely, that if someone appears different to you than to someone else in your group then describing that person will be problematic.
Personally I think that's a minor trade-off. If you so desperately want your toggle so you can see the actual gear someone is wearing then so be it, more power to you, etc, etc. But let me appear as I wish.
Akilae said:Riahuf22 said:This can exsist even with a toggle, like literally every word of it, so again i don't see the big deal.
The "big deal" has been pointed out by quite a few people in this thread. Namely, that if someone appears different to you than to someone else in your group then describing that person will be problematic.
Personally I think that's a minor trade-off. If you so desperately want your toggle so you can see the actual gear someone is wearing then so be it, more power to you, etc, etc. But let me appear as I wish.
I was never fighting cosmetic gear in general, just the toggle for me not to see it, you must of got me mixed up with someone else.
And if you think me having a toggle to unsee something is such a big deal, becuase it kills my immersion
Imagine I find something that kills your immersion/gameplay but tell you can't turn it off becuase it's part of the game how would you feel about that. hmm i wonder
And as for the whole the appearance of another individual and the hype people are actually giving it attention, it actually rarely happens, like really rare, now I'm not saying ti won't happen but if that's the thrill your actually looking for, one you'll have to be one of the first one to recieve such item, or be lucky enough to find someone who just so happen to not see it, and well thats actually is pretty much it, becuase once you see it once it starts to lose it charm not that it loses it value but once you know what it is the first time, and you see it a second time you alrdy know what it is and therefore don't have to ask the same question twice.
Riahuf22 said:This can exsist even with a toggle, like literally every word of it, so again i don't see the big deal.
That's like saying that mounts, spells, names, and characters can exist, even with a toggle that allows other players to disable them. Yes, the benefits I mentioned could exist. That doesn't mean that they would be fully/mostly/appropriately realized. Every person who disables appearance slots would diminish their value as it relates to the goal of enjoying a "shared experience." At the same time, the players who disable the appearance slots (for others) would still be able to take advantage of the improved economy, content relevance, and horizontal progression opportunities. That doesn't feel right at all. A player would be able to make their character appear exactly how they want (in the eyes of those who have appearance slots toggled on) while simultaneously denying others from being able to do the same.
I suppose an additional measure could be added which would prevent a player from using items in an appearance slot while they have them disabled for others, but we're already well past the point of ridiculousness. Wouldn't it be rather absurd if a player farms for a bloodstone breastplate, specifically because of its relative appearance value, while simultaneously having appearance slots toggled off? You shouldn't get the best of both worlds. I hope that the appearance slot toggle is ditched. Core values should not be compromised. Appearance slots should either always be on, or always be off, the same way /hidehelmet has worked in every other MMO ever made, to my knowledge. If appearance slots end up being an RP-Server-Only type of thing, it is extremely likely that I would be playing on an RP server.