I agree with the majority of your post Jabir and I'd like to share some feedback:
Jabir said:I have not read the entire thread, but I'm sure every stone has been turned by now. Therefore, I will only state my primary concerns, in prioritized order:
1. Everybody must see the same, always. A piece of gear on a character is as much a part of the shared virtual world as anything else in the environment. (An exception would be the appearance of yourself on the screen, but I guess few would find any pleasure in dressing up if nobody else could see it). I want to be able to chat meaningfully about what I see on people, and what they see on me.
2. The gear you see should be what you wear. When I venture into a terrifying dungeon I want my tank's looks to reflect her durability, not her fashion skills. I also want to sense the accomplishments of a player by glancing at her character, just as I want her to be able to tell from mine.
I agree with how you prioritized things. Having a persistent/shared world is very important. Your first concern is pretty spot-on in that regard. As far as your second concern, I think there are a few things that need to be considered:
1) Appearance slots would qualify as a separate equipment slot (1 for each slot that displays a graphic) which would simulate "you see what you are wearing." I understand that there would be a realism argument here where players shouldn't be able to wear a full set of plate mail over another full set of plate mail. While that is understandable, there are already established exceptions when it comes to emphasizing this sense of realism. Players have "bag slots" that they carry around on their person but those are almost never visible. Jewelry slots are almost never visible. Belts are sometimes visible, but often not.
There is also the /hidehelm and /hidecloak exception which has never been an "issue" in other games. When it comes to those commands in particular, as it relates to your priorities, we have to choose between one or the other. We can't have both at the same time. With that said, having a "priority list" naturally helps solve that issue if we could only choose one. This means that if a player uses the /hidehelm command ... their character will appear to not have a helmet equipped. No exceptions, no settings, and no toggles that allow other players to "disable" that command from functioning on their screen. Every player will always see the same thing, even though it doesn't align with this part of your second priority: "The gear you see should be what you wear. When I venture into a terrifying dungeon I want my tank's looks to reflect her durability, not her fashion skills."
2) I'd like to respond to this comment: "I also want to sense the accomplishments of a player by glancing at her character, just as I want her to be able to tell from mine." I think this is very important, and for many reasons. The conundrum we face here is deciding how effectively a player can show off their accomplishments. In a game like this ... where situational gear is emphasized, and where certain sets of gear will have a "set bonus" -- actively managing your equipment is going to be a somewhat consistent aspect of play. VR has mentioned that they plan on allowing players to utilize gear-swapping macros for that reason. The issue is that we are bound to run into many situations where the most effective equipment for a given scenario isn't necessarily something that players would consider a meaningful accomplishment.
Maybe it makes sense to use a set of regular-grade crafting armor that I purchased from an AH in order to acclimate to a certain climate. If another player sees me wearing that, are they able to get a sense of my accomplishments from a glance? I guess it depends on how you look at it. It could be argued that obtaining a set of highly situational (and accessible) gear that looks mediocre but functions great is an accomplishment. Let's fast forward 20 minutes and assume that my group ventures further into the environment and starts to prepare for a boss fight. I have a few random pieces of gear that work particularly well for this fight, but there is no visual harmony in terms of how they look. Again, if players look at me from a glance, is this an accurate way to measure my accomplishments?
I am of the mindset that self-expression is super important and that I would rather be able to control my appearance as I see fit. I know better than anybody else what kind of accomplishments I am proud of, and which ones I would like to share with the world. In the older games that I used to play ... we always had a few sets of gear. We had our standard BiS adventuring gear that was used for any and all things combat-related, with a few extra pieces here or there that had situational value. If my health pool or stats mattered, I had a very specific pool of gear that I could draw from. I also had an "appearance set" ... but this was something that I could only leverage in non-combat situations. For all intents and purposes ... that appearance set was mostly relegated to while I was AFK in town.
The main draw to appearance slots for me is the idea that I can override the standard equipment slots with my appearance slots. This allows me to remain functional/effective while in-combat while also giving me full control of how my character appears in the world, within the boundaries of gear that I have earned. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible for us to create a situation where we deliver on both of your priorities at the same time. I'm going to fall back to the /hidehelm command again. We have to choose what is more important. If a player feels that their helmet makes their character look goofy and they want to hide their helmet ... should they be allowed to utilize the /hidehelm command, or should they be forced to actually unequip their helmet altogether in the name of "meaningful choice" and "risk vs reward?" The /hidehelm command is purely fashion based and does not properly convey the durability of the character.
We have an obvious situation here where there is a conflict between the two priorities you mentioned. In order for priority #1 to be true then the /hidehelm command would be absolute and no other player would be able to see the helmet. There would be no toggle that allows them to disable the function of that command. Every player would see the same thing. So which one is more important? Nobody seeing the helmet, or everybody seeing the helmet (unless players purposely gimp their efficiency and sacrifice the stats provided by wearing one)? This brings me to the last bit of your post.
Jabir said:I fully appeciate the negative sides of this, and I'm as vain as (almost) anybody. In Vanguard I spent several levels collecting a complete, matching outfit that I thought looked so cool that I kept wearing it much longer than I should have from an effiency-perspective, and I hated how I looked when I couldn't justify that anymore and began to put on more powerful, but not matching pieces. Any clever ideas to remedy this and all the other appearance issues mentioned are most welcome, but please don't try to solve differences in opinions with individualized view options. They do more harm than good to the overall game experience.
Appearance slots solve the issue you mention here, quite effectively. The important distinction with appearance slots is that there would have to be restrictions. We should have race/class restrictions, level restrictions (if applicable), and armor/weapon type restrictions. Furthermore, only adventuring gear should qualify as something that could be placed in an appearance slot. This means no harvesting gear, no crafting gear, no racial gear, no formal attire, festive outfits, costumes, roleplaying gear, etc. If players want to maintain the look associated with any of that then they should have to equip those items in standard slots. This prevents a situation where players would be crawling through a dungeon while wearing a sundress or cooking apron. Appearance slots would not facilitate that kind of gameplay at all. They would, however, allow you to maintain that matching (adventure gear) outfit you worked hard for without tossing efficiency out the window.
The transmog stuff on rp servers seem reasonable. The thing is is that the majority of people don't care what you look like, but want to see what you are wearing. Toggling is the only way I see for a happy medium. If I am forced to look at your fake gear then their will be problems. Many people will probably ridicule people who go that route of transmoging. Luckily, most people who transmog do it for themselves and not others, which is why toggling is a good solution. If you are forcing me to look at your ridiculous armor that you aren't wearing....then you should accept what usually happens when you force your way onto others.
Watemper said:The transmog stuff on rp servers seem reasonable. The thing is is that the majority of people don't care what you look like, but want to see what you are wearing. Toggling is the only way I see for a happy medium. If I am forced to look at your fake gear then their will be problems. Many people will probably ridicule people who go that route of transmoging. Luckily, most people who transmog do it for themselves and not others, which is why toggling is a good solution. If you are forcing me to look at your ridiculous armor that you aren't wearing....then you should accept what usually happens when you force your way onto others.
Why should it be ridiculous ?
Watemper said:The transmog stuff on rp servers seem reasonable. The thing is is that the majority of people don't care what you look like, but want to see what you are wearing. Toggling is the only way I see for a happy medium. If I am forced to look at your fake gear then their will be problems. Many people will probably ridicule people who go that route of transmoging. Luckily, most people who transmog do it for themselves and not others, which is why toggling is a good solution. If you are forcing me to look at your ridiculous armor that you aren't wearing....then you should accept what usually happens when you force your way onto others.
"the majority of people don't care what you look like"
You sure it's a majority? And again, though I'm happy with going to an RP server to get appearance slots, a toggle isn't a "happy medium" when it is 100% great for those not wanting appearance slots and significantly less than 100% for those that do. A medium would involve compromise on both sides.
"but want to see what you are wearing"
Oh, so they *do* care what you look like, but only underneath what you *want* to look like? Otherwise /inspect would be fine? Because they don't actually care what you *look* like, just want to know?
"Many people will probably ridicule people who go that route of transmoging"
Many? Probably? Never seen ridiculing of it unless it is ridiculous cosmetics, which it won't be in Pantheon. In LOTRO where I use wardrobe slots, I did get lots of people admiring my look and asking where I got the appearance gear (which is, of course, normally earned gear that you consume to put in your wardrobe).
"most people who transmog do it for themselves and not others"
Most? Where are you getting your info? When I bother to set up appearance stuff it's to give me a look I want others to see. I would imaging most people do it for others to see, but, hey, I don't know for sure.
"ridiculous armor"
As previously mentioned, VR have said appearance gear will not be 'ridiculous'.
"force your way onto others"
Like forcing appearance slots to be useless just so at a glance you can see exactly what I'm wearing?
As I've said in previous posts, the crux of this matter is the desire to control knowing what someone is wearing weighed against the desire to control knowing how someone sees you.
Those that don't care about using appearance slots are happy with the toggle because it gives them 100% of what they want.
How about having no toggle and using /inspect? Then those wanting appearance slots get 100% of what they want and you have some inconvenience but get what you want. That sound good? No?
A compromise involves *both* sides giving up their ideal solution, else it is not a compromise. The toggle is not a compromise any more than the /inspect function is.
One side doesn't want cosmetics getting in the way with gameplay. I think being able to read/gauge a player from a distance is valuable information that shouldn't be obscured, on top of that but less personally important: I have found I don't share the same mindset of what portions of players consider "cool" when it comes to outfits/looks and it's tiring seeing swaths of equipment in the game cast aside because they lack full sets or are generally considered less appealing.
Plenty of people use and grind out cosmetics even in single player or mostly single player games (Fashion Souls anyone? Or outfits in Zelda games?) because they want to look cool for themselves without a care what others can/cannot see. Also because it affects nobody but that specific user. In games like MOBAs or FPS/Overwatch changing cosmetics or skins doesn't affect the other players, you aren't hiding some new capability or power level, Blitzcrank is still Blitzcrank whether he looks like a robot golem or a hot rod or an ipod.
Some subset beyond that care so much about appearances they seem to have no problem obscuring gameplay purely for cosmetics. I think forcing that is detrimental but feel that's why a toggle IS a fair compromise.
It is meeting in the middle there, where players can play dress up for themselves to look as "cool" as they want for themselves and others who partake in the system but also not infringe upon the first group.
Iksar said:It is meeting in the middle there, where players can play dress up for themselves to look as "cool" as they want for themselves and others who partake in the system but also not infringe upon the first group.
No it's not. Your picking a section of those using appearance slots that are completely unaffected by the toggle to somehow justify the toggle being ok, lol.
You are just ignoring the majority (in my experience, the majority) of appearance slot users because the toggle gives you 100% of what you want and you don't care if it makes it rubbish for them because you don't feel the same way as them.
You think your need to know exactly what others are wearing at a glance is a more important feeling than their desire to have a look that isn't rendered pointless by people seeing through it.
Why not just have no toggle and use /inspect? That would be fine for people who don't care about what others are wearing at all, so that's meeting in the middle, yeah?
Do you see I did the same as you there? I just pick a section of people not wanting to use appearance gear but that also don't care about others' 'real' gear either and that's the lack of toggle justified.
And you feel that it's somehow an essential to gameplay? I don't. I don't need to know exactly what others are wearing before I risk grouping with them. I can't say I remember ever thinking about it or checking unless curious during a long camp when having the chance to chat if they are the same class as me. Maybe. They could be in rusty level 1 gear and be better than someone twinked up to the eyeballs. Why would I care? I don't know anyone who has every worried about that kind of thing either. The kind of guilds and groups that do are the kind I would avoid.
This again, though, is just a feeling. Your feelings on the matter clearly differ.
But surely, we can see, that *because* out feelings differ it is likely that others' will too and that the toggle and the /inspect are neither of them good compromises? I don't feel the same way as you but I can see that the /inspect function would be inconvenient, even though it would work. It is the same for the toggle.
Well it seems in the middle to me. It satisfies those who don't want to see it, it satisfies those who want to look cool for themselves (and see others who want to partake), and only misses those who want complete control over what everyone can see. Pair that with forced "on" toggle for RP servers and we have what I would consider solid options for any player type.
It's about more than assessing people for grouping or looting/upgrading gear, the quick visual is rather important when assessing potential player threats to oneself or their group especially when it comes to in the heat of the moment MDD or attempted kill/camp thefts. /inspect (which even some here wish an option to make private) just doesn't cut it, it takes FAR more time to do and is on an individual basis. I don't enjoy efforts to make pertinent information more obscure.
Iksar said:Well it seems in the middle to me. It satisfies those who don't want to see it, it satisfies those who want to look cool for themselves (and see others who want to partake), and only misses those who want complete control over what everyone can see. Pair that with forced "on" toggle for RP servers and we have what I would consider solid options for any player type.
It's about more than assessing people for grouping or looting/upgrading gear, the quick visual is rather important when assessing potential player threats to oneself or their group especially when it comes to in the heat of the moment MDD or attempted kill/camp thefts. /inspect (which even some here wish an option to make private) just doesn't cut it, it takes FAR more time to do and is on an individual basis. I don't enjoy efforts to make pertinent information more obscure.
Imagine that half players use appearance slots and the other half want to see real gear
Let's imagine there is a toggle.
That means half players have the appearance slot toggle off. The 'real gear' guys see everyone in real gear. 100% great. The appearance slot guys know that half the players don't see their appearance gear and, so have the pain of maintaining their real gear look as well and know their appearance gear is 50% effectively useless.
Now let's imagine there is no toggle.
The appearance slot guys are 100% happy. They know their appearance is seen by all. They don't have to maintain their real gear and can wear what they like. The real gear guys know that 50% of people they see aren't showing real gear, so they have the pain of using /inspect when they want to be sure and their at-a-glance ability is 50% effectively useless.
Do you see the similarity?
If you're suggesting that those wanting control over how they look are being unreasonable or are in a minority then I can't argue that. I really don't think so. I guess that will be up to VR to decide, but you are suggesting a compromise that doesn't even consider those people.
There are other groups as have been mentioned. A lot of people I bet don't care about what other people are actually wearing. They don't compare themselves and they don't judge others on their gear. A lot of people like to keep their gear as secret as possible and don't think /inspect should be a thing, never mind just knowing at a glance.
In a fantasy role-playing multiplayer shared-experience game it is far from unusual or weird to care about how you look to others.
disposalist said:Imagine that half players use appearance slots and the other half want to see real gear
Let's imagine there is a toggle.
That means half players have the appearance slot toggle off. The 'real gear' guys see everyone in real gear. 100% great. The appearance slot guys know that half the players don't see their appearance gear and, so have the pain of maintaining their real gear look as well and know their appearance gear is 50% effectively useless.
Now let's imagine there is no toggle.
The appearance slot guys are 100% happy. They know their appearance is seen by all. They don't have to maintain their real gear and can wear what they like. The real gear guys know that 50% of people they see aren't showing real gear, so they have the pain of using /inspect when they want to be sure and their at-a-glance ability is 50% effectively useless.
Do you see the similarity?
If you're suggesting that those wanting control over how they look are being unreasonable or are in a minority then I can't argue that. I really don't think so. I guess that will be up to VR to decide, but you are suggesting a compromise that doesn't even consider those people.
There are other groups as have been mentioned. A lot of people I bet don't care about what other people are actually wearing. They don't compare themselves and they don't judge others on their gear. A lot of people like to keep their gear as secret as possible and don't think /inspect should be a thing, never mind just knowing at a glance.
In a fantasy role-playing multiplayer shared-experience game it is far from unusual or weird to care about how you look to others.
That's what boggles me, why do they have to give a care about maintaining the looks of their adventuring gear too because someone might see it? That seems obsessive and unhealthy to me. Those who view adventure gear in your scenario are 100% fine, yes, they don't have their gameplay impeded in any way by others. The complaints of those who specificially want to show off their outfits to everyone no matter what at all times amounts to an entirely cosmetic or dare I say superficial complaint.
I will say that pretending we know any of the numbers involved for any of this is problematic. There are subsets of "appearance" guys as I mentioned, and we don't know what percentage of players don't care what others see as long as they look cool/good to themselves (plenty of single/mostly single player games back that this is popular on its own, heck people go as far as to play opposite sex characters to look at their own asses).
So without any sort of real data to go on we are all just puffing our chests in terms of who likes/uses what and what they are or are not okay with. We are just a couple of frogs croaking into a drain pipe in hopes the devs will hear one over the other.
Iksar said:That's what boggles me, why do they have to give a care about maintaining the looks of their adventuring gear too because someone might see it? That seems obsessive and unhealthy to me.
I understand that opinion, but even if you don't feel that way, you have to see that some clearly do and that the toggle just ignores them.
It's not obsessive and unhealthy to care what others see when they look at you. You could say it's more obsessive and unhealthy to care about what no one but you will see.
To be honest, I would not maintain both if there were a toggle. I just wouldn't use the system at all because it would be pretty much pointless. I would also boycott it and discourage its use as it would be confusing and damaging to immersion and to the community for two halves to see different things when looking at each other.
There may as well be no appearance slots than have a toggle.
Iksar said:So without any sort of real data to go on we are all just puffing our chests in terms of who likes/uses what and what they are or are not okay with. We are just a couple of frogs croaking into a drain pipe in hopes the devs will hear one over the other.
Well, yes, sort of, though I hope both sides are heard. Of course if *both* sides *are* heard and respected, then VR will see the toggle can't be a compromise...
When it comes to players being able to gauge others, this topic was covered quite a bit on the various inspection threads. Here are some quotes from Kilsin from those threads:
01/06/2017 -- https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3087/to-inspect-or-not-to-inspect-what-say-you/view/page/5
Kilsin said:"I actually like having /anon to protect me from prying eyes mainly on my alts, as my gear doesn't determine my ability to control my character and I would rather be judged by my performance in groups, raids and interaction than by what random drops my characters have picked up and slapped on, if someone stopped you in the street and started removing your coat and putting their hands in your pockets to check what you had on you, I am sure you would have something to say about it, some people feel the same way in game, so allowing a toggle to block prying eyes is fine in my opinion, for those who don't care, they can peak and inspect all they like. ;)"
01/09/2017 -- https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3087/to-inspect-or-not-to-inspect-what-say-you/view/post_id/83267
Kilsin said:Well that will just come down to the social interactions, group play and nature of our community, you folks can choose to reject someone based on their gear, or help them run through a dungeon with the possibility of getting better gear, no one will start out max level in uber gear, everyone will need help from others whether it be complete strangers, friends, guild members etc. so I really wouldn;t worry about that, it would be the minority and not an overwhelming issue in my opinion.
Not being able to see little things like rings that give the smallest stat boost possible should never be the deciding factor in who gets a group position over someone else unless you are at the bleeding edge of high-end raiding and struggling on a progression target where every single % and point of stats and dps counts, that again will be the very small minority, not a general issue for everyone to worry about. :)
01/09/2017 -- https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3087/to-inspect-or-not-to-inspect-what-say-you/view/post_id/83267
Kilsin said:We will have databases full of this information logged in item values, groups, sets, percentages, level ranges etc. so we will know what items compete with others and in what areas and what level ranges etc. so it won't be a problem for us to track and monitor itemization balance for the most part if we log it all properly but /inspect will still be a thing as seeing someone's chest plate that you have never seen before will probably interest you and make you want to /inspect to find out its stats, especially if it is crafted and has maybe been upgraded and if that player has their /inspect turned on then awesome, peak away, if not you will have to strike up a conversation with them and ask nicely, which is what we want to happen, any chance to promote actual player interaction is only going to help the community and the game. :)
01/09/2017 -- https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3087/to-inspect-or-not-to-inspect-what-say-you/view/page/7
Kilsin said:Whether they are visible or not it doesn't really matter, we will have /inspect and probably a way to disable it for those who don't want to be inspected and it will have absolutely minimal impact on the game and everyone's gaming experience, it will promote interactions and spark conversations and it will not be as big of a problem as some people think.
Kilsin said:Absolutely and maybe we won't be able to make everything unique, we will certainly try but some maybe be variants of other items or copies with slightly different stats/graphics etc. but the point I was trying to make is that people in this thread seem to be on one side or the other and there is no need to take sides on a topic like this, it won't be a big issue if you can't see someone else's gear, it will either promote interaction or leave you wondering what it could be, if they have /inspect turned off, either way, it won't affect your gameplay or success completing a dungeon, if there is ever an issue it will be the minority and not a common issue, as I said, we had both /inspect and /anon in VG and it didn't change anything, it just promoted interaction if they had /anon on and you wanted to see what gear/weapons they had, usually they would be happy to talk to you and show their shiny stuff off but if they said no or didn't reply then so be it, you would carry on about your business without any issues. ;)
01/09/2017 -- https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3087/to-inspect-or-not-to-inspect-what-say-you/view/post_id/83224
Kilsin said:People are forgetting that in Pantheon you will be able to see the gear on the character, hiding it like that would have been easier in games that allow appearance gear (another reason why I dislike it) but in Pantheon, if you're wearing a bronze chest plate and green hide leggings with a wooden staff of healing and you're a Cleric who keeps dying a lot, your group will know why whether you have /inspect on or off ;)
Either way, it is a personal preference and again, having the ability to block prying eyes is something a lot of people like, myself included, if I don't want anyone looking at my gear, I should be able to turn that feature off no matter what my reasons are for it, it's my gear, my stats, my character, if someone tries to inspect me and it says, this person has private mode turned on, then bad luck lol
If that gets me kicked from groups then so be it, they will miss out on an experienced player who wants to have a bit of character privacy and be judged on their actions/interactions, not their gear and stats. :)
Funny enough, this is coming from a guild and raid leader who found it annoying to ask people to turn /anon off in VG so I could check gear to make sure we had enough dps and healing power to take down some top tier targets for the Reverence PUG that I used to host with my guild but it never resulted in people getting kicked or failing attempts so it really isn't a big deal.
Now when it comes to these quotes, especially the highlighted section above, it's worth noting that all of this was stated a month before the cosmetic toggle was confirmed. With that said ... when I read those messages, there is a consistent train of thought. I should have full control over my character. It's my character, my gear, my stats. If I want to prevent prying eyes from examining my character then I should be able to do that, period. In the same light ... if I want to display a specific set of gear that I earned on my character, I should be able to do that. There are valid criticisms of this, as expressed throughout that thread linked above, and that is okay. I think the world is more interesting when you have that element of mystery and intrigue. I don't think my character stats or the name of my equipment should be considered "pertinent information" to others. If I want to share that information then I will make it accessible.
To me, this is a very basic form of "social interaction." I am comfortable with dealing with the consequences of my choices. If hiding my information prevents me from being able to join a group then I will have to overcome that and start building trust with people who don't impose that kind of requirement. There are so many variables involved with online gameplay that cannot be fully predicted or planned for. Sometimes you need to change things up depending on who you are with, what you're up against, how much time you have, what the risk/reward looks like, etc. I like to think on my feet and handle these situations as they come rather than adhering to "social engineering." Sometimes I will turn off my appearance slots. Sometimes I will have them on. Sometimes I will have inspect disabled. Sometimes I won't. These choices should be mine and mine alone. If other players don't like my choices then they can always avoid me or even try to blacklist me. I'm not worried about that. I can handle myself just fine and it would be pretty awesome if I had full control over my character, for better or worse.
If I break official rules then action should be taken against my account. If I do something that another person disagrees with, fundamentally, so what? I have had plenty of fundamental disagreements with people on this forum and if there is an expectation that folks should just jump into a line of conformity, that would be dreadful. Let's bring back social constructs, meaningful relationships, meaningful reputation, shared experiences, a trust factor that matters, a sense of mystery/prestige, and player agency. If I refuse to turn /inspect on when others are demanding to see my equipment, that is my choice, and I can live with the consequences. If I am a group leader and demand that another player turns on /inspect so that I can gauge their equipment, that is my choice, and I can live with those consequences. These kinds of chance encounters are dynamic and should be approached on an individual basis. Huge blankets of social engineering are pretty awful for a game like this ... Pantheon is supposed to be intensely social ... more choices with consequences, less imposing of someone elses universal truth.
Beefcake said:You post a lot of old quotes. Keep in mind that VR seems to change opinions regularly.
Old quotes have plenty of value around here, especially the parts that focus on the why rather than the how. (Why is less likely to change.) I personally found those quotes to be quite refreshing as they reminded me why I pledged to Pantheon in the first place. There was a pretty powerful message throughout all of that (at least how I perceived it) ... social interaction is important and our decisions during those interactions should have consequences. Those who complain about not being able to see what other folks are wearing are a small minority making a big deal out of nothing. Other players do not get to control my character. They can request things, or even demand things, but I am not required to oblige. I can request things from others, or even try to demand them ... but again, they are not required to oblige. Live and let live!
To add a little context to that quote from Kilsin with the highlighted bit ... it was in response to this message from Duffy:
Duffy said:I'd like to be able to inspect. I don't mind asking though, if that's the favored etiquette.
There were some saying that inspecting can be a tool to bully people and of course, it can. Others say, that good players shouldn't be unfairly judged by their gear alone, of course not.
But then there is also the other side: there will be always people who are really not putting any effort in their gear. Hiding inspection is a godsent for people like that. Be it people who are running around with starter gear in their 30th, or people in endgame who want to jump to different content directly bypassing the means to equip them before.
And If I am the unlucky healer who has to heal such people in my group and maybe even get blamed for not pulling my weight despite I am healing myself a carpal tunnel syndrome! Then I really want to be able to inspect them.
I don't see how this could be much of a concern if the game doesn't have a cash-shop selling cosmetic upgrades. How could that ever be a realistic concern? If someone isn't putting effort into their gear then they clearly shouldn't have access to anything that makes them "appear powerful." That's basic risk vs reward. The idea that someone could be wearing a bronze breastplate, green hide leggings, and a wooden staff of healing ... while appearing to have a shiny platinum breastplate, dragonscale leggings, and a transcendent staff of holiness ... it's invalid. If they have those items then they would equip them in the primary slots rather than appearance slots. It's a total non-issue.
We could flip that around and say that characters might have all of that shiny/awesome gear, but choose to look like they have the beggar gear ... but again, players should have that choice. If they are trying to find a group and they are displaying the beggar gear instead of the shiny stuff, they are only trolling themselves.
Again you shouldn't be able to Control what i see just becuase you want to look "Cool," that isn't the way it works. If i want to see adventure gear, becuase of reason Iksar and I have mentioned, i should be able to see adventure gear and shouldn't be challenged in a way you feel like we are wrong. Much like if you want to have the toggle on and see everyone look "Cool." you act like we aren't comp[romising when the compromise is you get to be able to earn cosmetic gear in general, we just ahve the option to see it or not. I know you don't really like this compromise, but that doesn't mean its a bad compromise it just means you want to control what i have to see regardless if i want to see it, and regardless of how you look at it that is exactly what you are doing. It's my version of the game, its me paying $15 or more a month to play it, and its my fantsasy world and how I want to see it.
WE have already came to one agreement on how to deal with this issue anyway, the mere fact your still argueing to make it to where it should be on all servers is just showing when it comes to this topic how unwilling your wanting to compromise in any kind of way at this point.
Riahuf22 said:Again you shouldn't be able to Control what i see just becuase you want to look "Cool," that isn't the way it works
And that is very much your *opinion* not something that is somehow *the truth*. Some would say there is no other point to appearance gear at all. But we've been over this...
Riahuf22 said:If i want to see adventure gear, becuase of reason Iksar and I have mentioned, i should be able to see adventure gear and shouldn't be challenged in a way you feel like we are wrong
You're not 'wrong'. Neither are you 'right'. That is just your opinion on the matter backed by feelings not everyone shares. It's as simple as that. What you then do, though, is tell us your idea of a compromise is somehow 'right' and 'good' and 'fair' but it's all based on what you want and feel and quite literally ignores as irrelevant or 'wrong' how others feel about it. That certainly deserves being challenged. But we've been over this too...
Riahuf22 said:...
WE have already came to one agreement on how to deal with this issue anyway, the mere fact your still argueing to make it to where it should be on all servers is just showing when it comes to this topic how unwilling your wanting to compromise in any kind of way at this point.
We have found that one solution - to have no toggle on RP servers - but that doesn't mean it can't be discussed and others might come up with a better solution.
It is very interesting to see what Kilsin thinks, old comments or not, it is extremely unlikely that he has flipped how he feels.
The reason people keep talking about this is some continue to suggest the toggle is somehow a compromise and everyone should be happy, when it is not and they are not.
What Kilsin talks about is not quite the exact issue, but is directly relevant, as he talks about the value (or not) of knowing other people's gear and of being able to hide your gear: -
"my gear doesn't determine my ability to control my character and I would rather be judged by my performance in groups, raids and interaction than by what random drops my characters have picked up and slapped on"
Opinion of others needing to know what he is wearing pretty clear there then
"if that player has their /inspect turned on then awesome, peak away, if not you will have to strike up a conversation with them and ask nicely, which is what we want to happen"
So, not wanting people to know exactly what others are wearing even if they take the time to /inspect, never mind at a glance
"Whether they [gear items] are visible or not it doesn't really matter, we will have /inspect and probably a way to disable it for those who don't want to be inspected and it will have absolutely minimal impact on the game"
So not knowing what others are wearing will have absolutely minimal impact, in Kilsin's opinion
"it won't be a big issue if you can't see someone else's gear, it will either promote interaction or leave you wondering what it could be, if they have /inspect turned off, either way, it won't affect your gameplay or success completing a dungeon, if there is ever an issue it will be the minority"
Pretty clear there
then one that seems to be self-contradicting: -
"in Pantheon you will be able to see the gear on the character, hiding it like that would have been easier in games that allow appearance gear (another reason why I dislike it) but in Pantheon, if you're wearing a bronze chest plate and green hide leggings with a wooden staff of healing and you're a Cleric who keeps dying a lot, your group will know why whether you have /inspect on or off"
but then qualifies it by saying his personal preference doesn't trump what is right: -
"Either way, it is a personal preference and again, having the ability to block prying eyes is something a lot of people like, myself included, if I don't want anyone looking at my gear, I should be able to turn that feature off no matter what my reasons are for it, it's my gear, my stats, my character"
and
"this is coming from a guild and raid leader who found it annoying to ask people to turn /anon off in VG so I could check gear"
but he *still* understands and defends the right to *not* show what your gear is.
Now these comments are largely about /inspect being allowed or not but the thing Kilsin is defending to the end is a players right to control whether another players knows what gear is being worn. What people are asking for re. an appearance slot toggle, is that they should be able to tell, at a glance, what gear is being worn.
If you can tell, not just by looking, but at a glance, exactly what gear is being worn then /inspect is irrelevant. It's the appearance gear that is the only defence. If you *can't* really ever tell, at a glance, what gear is being worn, then someone using appearance gear doesn't really matter. Either way, having a toggle for appearance gear is either pointless or breaks Kilsin's desire for being secretive about gear. Either way is a case for *not* having the toggle.
Syrif said:Beefcake said:You post a lot of old quotes. Keep in mind that VR seems to change opinions regularly.
Exactly. I thought the same thing lol
VR changes it's stance as a company. I seriously doubt that Kilsin has changed how he feels about /inspect and the right to hide his gear which has grown over 20 years of playing multiple MMORPGs.
Yes, VR's stance could change regarding appearance slots. I hope it does re. the toggle.
I spoke about there being players that want secret gear, never mind appearance gear and that their views are unlikely to be popular because it would require appearance gear with no toggle *and* no /inspect function to properly achieve that.
It's quite funny that after all this discussion it sounds like Kilsin is one of those folks.
I don't expect appearance slots + no toggle + no /inspect will be the design. Maybe appearance slots + no toggle but with /inspect is the best compromise? Something I suggested a while back ;^)
that entire discussion as nothing to do with cosmetic gear though, to me that is clearly saying everyone is new to the game and no one knows what gear looks like what without asking. That will go away for a lot of the common gear with 2-3 months depending on how you level up and such, but wasn't referring to cosmetic gear in anyway. Your right that you gear shouldn't be a judge on how good your skill cap is, we were never saying it should be, but we are saying we want to see adventure gear becuase thats what makes us happy, and can tell us what adventures they have been through to get such gear if we knew where they got it. To be honest I think this whole "I care how other people see me." Is completely blown out of proportion, and would fade quickly within a month of playing time.
Okat reread i guess he does, but honestly he should be able to understand the other side of the coin. And i look at it as he's inspecting them to see if they have good gear for his raids before they head off to battle, which could be a lot simplier if you have a toggle switch and can see at a "glance" and be like yup he's good, instead of making the character turn off /anon so he could inspect him, in this very manner that he brings up himself the toggle could be useful here, now if he would use it or not in this manner would be completely his decision.
Riahuf22 said:Your right that you gear shouldn't be a judge on how good your skill cap is, we were never saying it should be
Some were saying literally that. Others were saying it was about assessing threat to your group which is a similar thing. It's being used as an argument that gear should be seen.
Riahuf22 said:but we are saying we want to see adventure gear becuase thats what makes us happy, and can tell us what adventures they have been through to get such gear if we knew where they got it
And that's a legit desire, though no more important than anyone else's and something Kilsin thinks is not some kind of 'right'. Indeed he appears to think the opposite right - to keep your gear your own business - is more important.
Riahuf22 said:To be honest I think this whole "I care how other people see me." Is completely blown out of proportion, and would fade quickly within a month of playing time.
And no matter how many times you say it, it is just the way you feel and is not *the truth*. Kilsin thinks that the need to see someone's gear is being blown out of proportion and it would have minimal effect on the game to not have that right.
Riahuf22 said:Okat reread i guess he does, but honestly he should be able to understand the other side of the coin. And i look at it as he's inspecting them to see if they have good gear for his raids before they head off to battle, which could be a lot simplier if you have a toggle switch and can see at a "glance"
Yes, it would be more convenient - he says he found it inconvenient - and even knowing that he still advocates that there is no right to see people's gear.
I'm not trying to use Kilsin's opinion to beat your opinion into the ground. I'm am simply saying, as I always have, people need to accept that their own opinion is not objectively 'right', but that asserting the appearance toggle is somehow a good compromise when basing that on your own feelings and ignoring other people's is clearly not right.
What I am trying to do is help you see that if the feelings on the subject of someone like Kilsin are aligned with those wanting to keep their gear their own business then surely you can appreciate those feelings aren't niche or weird. Kilsin even advocates keeping them completely secret, never mind just stopping people seeing through appearance gear.
I accept your desire to simply see gear for what it is. Do you not accept that, especially if someone like Kilsin has similar feelings, those wanting appearance gear that you cannot simply switch off so as to see their real gear, have a legitimate and valid opinion?
It's not what you want, but it's not more important than what they want.
Riahuf22 said:he brings up himself the toggle could be useful here, now if he would use it or not in this manner would be completely his decision.
Completely different toggle, by the way. He's talking specifically about disabling or enabling /inspect and /anon.
I'm pretty sure on that whole not knowing your gear thing was more towards the /inspect, /anon aspect of the feature and not so much about the cosmetic gear, and as I've said the toggle is pretty much the best compromise, so instead of trying to convince me that I'm wrong and not an annoying /inspectr feature, which most people disable anyway, how about bring up something else becuase if you can't than i guess the toggle is a good fix, even though you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't good, as i can clearly say i hate paying taxes, and have to watch 15 minutes of commercials for a 30 minute show, but i understand why it is there.
Riahuf22 said:I'm pretty sure on that whole not knowing your gear thing was more towards the /inspect, /anon aspect of the feature and not so much about the cosmetic gear
Yes I said that. That'll be because in EQ and VG which is what he was talking about in much of that, there was no appearance slot stuff.
The important part is, he was saying that people don't have some basic 'right' to see others' gear.
Riahuf22 said:and as I've said the toggle is pretty much the best compromise, so instead of trying to convince me that I'm wrong and not an annoying /inspectr feature, which most people disable anyway, how about bring up something else becuase if you can't than i guess the toggle is a good fix
... OMG
Riahuf22 said:even though you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't good
Lol. Do you see that equally, just because you like it doesn't mean it *is* good?
What I have said is that I accept neither the toggle nor the /inspect function is a compromise because I do see both sides, yet you continue to claim the toggle idea *is* a good compromise.
I am not arguing that you are wrong to want to see gear just as it is. I am arguing that other people want something different and the toggle is not *objectively* a good or fair compromise.
I am just going to give up trying to make you see.
Sounds good to me, becuase about every game that has a /inspect feature can be disabled, which makes the /inspect one of the worst compromises we can have. and again as ive said many times, if i had my toggle off you wouldn't know unless i told you or way does it even matter that much. Your acting like everyone is going to have it off and making it feel like it is going 0% your way which simply isn't true, you get to see you the way you want to see yourself, and more than anything that shouldn be the most important part. There is no reason why you feel i should have to see you that way as well unless if i decided too, again as i said giving the power to the individual playing on his pc and not to others that dicate what they see regardless if they want to see it or not. I the user on my computer should have most to all the power of what i want to see, i should be able to disable cosmetic gear, just as much as all the other features pantheon has to offer, they shouldn't be mandatory to use, becuase once it comes mandatory it becomes more of a mechanic than a feature. And Cosmetic Gear is clearly a feature and should be treated as one.
Doford said:There's no right or wrong answer. People just have different priorities.
True. Very reasonable. But?... There's a but, isn't there...
Doford said:I think having a toggle doesn't make much difference. A lot of people with different opinions probably think your outfit style is bad anyway. What does it matter if they can't see it?
... Yeah, there was a but. Oh dear. You started so well.
So , "there's no right or wrong", but one side should get exactly what they want because the other side doesn't matter? Hmm.