kreed99 said: This salvage thing is going to bring up a whole new sub-genre for the classification of ‘need’. I personally always just ran FFA groups and everything was /rand. I didnt want to hear everyones reasons for wanting something. If someone won something and thought another member should have it that was their call to make.
Wow already had a salvage option in disenchanting, and it was never an issue. People understand that someone using gear trumps them salvaging.
Watemper said:Yea I think if we go the trivial loot way when a mob is green or grey, making it impossible for higher levels to come back and farm lower level gear,if they want it for themselves or if they want it because it's good money on the market, then it will come down to what the pros and cons are to this and if the pros outweigh the cons.
Cons:
Players of X level can't go back and farm loot for themselves
This may cause less interaction with higher levels and lower levels...which is a bad thing overall.
Pros:
6 boxers won't be able to gate gear that is lower level easily
Higher levels won't rob a camp of the bosses they get allowing the group meant to be there to actually get loot.
Way more camps will be open instead of the one max level character taking a camp for himself for the boss loot.
Might make an insentive to have more alts.
That's all I can think of. So I would say more pros than cons with that system. So the next question is that is there a system that can mitigate any of the cons if this is implemented? The one that comes to my mind is the mentoring system. By scaling down to that level and mentoring someone you can go to those camps and the loot will be available to you still. For the second con if the dungeons, and zones are done right, then you should be interacting with higher levels regardless even if they can't go back and farm loot for themselves.
Few things. You dont design games based upon the smallest portion of the population (boxers). That's just dumb.
It's easy to look towards eq and the way people farm gear and say TLC is great. EQ had a TERRIBLE loot system in classic. The items did not scale with level and BIS items were found in level 20 zones. If pantheon creates a halfway decent loot system, theres 0 reason for higher levels to be in level 20 zones for loot.
Besides, you're main issue with no TLC is that boxers can farm the content as much as they want... but then you also want to allow mentored players to also farm the content... well you realize you could just mentor 1 character down and have him kill the mob with outside help. TLC wouldn't solve this issue lol.
If I really wanted to farm a level 20 item. I would just leave a character at whatever the max level is that they could still farm it and then have the rest of my group there for support.
My biggest issue with TLC is that in a brand new game. Where travel will be difficult, I might not even know about an item I can use until it's too late. So now I either have to buy it (which is probably a ridiculous price) or create an alt... which I have 0 interest in doing. It's just not a good system for a game designed with loot akin to eq.
My hope is that pantheon designs a game where level 50 chars are heading to level 40+ areas for loot. And have 0 reason to loot gear from lower level zones.
I think grey/green cons should be leaving vastly overpowered players alone. I thought part of the spirit of Pantheon was to be challenging. Killing hordes of underconned mobs is neither challenging nor fun in my opinion. I also think that bringing up loot, quests, craft items, trolling, camping, etc. in this context is a necessary and unavoidable discussion. It isn't off-topic.
If mentoring and grouping is to be encouraged in this game, I don't see why the penalty for killing trivial mobs shouldn't be a no reward or loot situation. If a player wishes to revisit old content for loot, quest, or crafting items, they can mentor and do the content with an appropriate challenge. To me this is the best way to avoid intentional or unintentional griefing. Who knows, maybe it can be a chance to expand their personal experience of the broader community, as well as keep new players from getting bored quickly and leaving the game altogether, because there is never anyone to play with at low levels as the game ages.
Not every one wishes to do old content, especially if they have to do it repeatedly in order to get to the new content they actually want and/or need to progress. This to me is the best reason to have underconned npc's not chasing higher level players. I played EQ2 from launch until just a couple months ago, but I finally had enough of the direction the game was headed. The grey mobs=no loot part was and still is a great thing in EQ2, however, they finally lost me when they started gating new content with old content. Again, not everyone wishes to revisit old, trivial content, and it becomes nothing but a tedious timesink when it is forced upon them for no other reason than to slow progression.
I think a no-aggro, no loot/reward system for low level mobs is the fairest way to go, and stays in the spirit of a challenging, community driven experience. Those that wish to go through low level areas for items or experience can mentor, stay challenged, and interact with new players with a lower probability of harming their experience. Those at higher levels that only want to get to challenging, level appropriate content can move through the area without causing problems for players that actually want to be there.
zewtastic said:I know it is early days and things will of course change, but upon watching one of the more recent streams again it almost seemed comical.
The player running through BRK past green human NPC's with impunity. Not drawing aggro or alarm?
Frankly it just looked dumb.
Even if Human NPC's were too afraid to engage a higher level character running into their castle, they would still call for help or something. That sort of fits into the entire aspect of the Dispositon System.
Even green NPCs should be able to take down a higher level PC if there were enough of them.
I hope that gets tuned more.
It's annoying as hell to catch aggro from some mob 40 levels lower than you. There needs to be a balance. Would you go attack Daniel Cormier? Humanoids, anyway, should as a general rule not aggro much higher level players. Mindless creatures, or animals, could be different. Balance.
definitelynotarobot said:
I think a no-aggro, no loot/reward system for low level mobs is the fairest way to go, and stays in the spirit of a challenging, community driven experience. Those that wish to go through low level areas for items or experience can mentor, stay challenged, and interact with new players with a lower probability of harming their experience. Those at higher levels that only want to get to challenging, level appropriate content can move through the area without causing problems for players that actually want to be there.
I can't collect spider silk for my epic armor quest because I'm too high level? Nah. I'm shocked at how many people fail to understand how important it is to bring high level people back to low level areas.
' I can't collect spider silk for my epic armor quest because I'm too high level? Nah. I'm shocked at how many people fail to understand how important it is to bring high level people back to low level areas. '
This kind of loot is fine, body loot, quest loot from outlevelled mobs is fine. It is items you can equip and break down for crafting material that shouldn't drop off trivial mobs. No way do people want to group up at level 8 and have dungeons being monopolised by level 50's smashing all the mobs for crafting mats when they could go harvest nodes.
splitpawthanos said:' I can't collect spider silk for my epic armor quest because I'm too high level? Nah. I'm shocked at how many people fail to understand how important it is to bring high level people back to low level areas. '
This kind of loot is fine, body loot, quest loot from outlevelled mobs is fine. It is items you can equip and break down for crafting material that shouldn't drop off trivial mobs. No way do people want to group up at level 8 and have dungeons being monopolised by level 50's smashing all the mobs for crafting mats when they could go harvest nodes.
Aside from yeah, people are not seeming to understand how TLC works, most high levels will not spend time farming tivial crafting material anyway. They would just buy it, probably in bulk on some market. Which makes it a money source for low level players as they progress the low level dungeons.
Keno Monster said:definitelynotarobot said:
I think a no-aggro, no loot/reward system for low level mobs is the fairest way to go, and stays in the spirit of a challenging, community driven experience. Those that wish to go through low level areas for items or experience can mentor, stay challenged, and interact with new players with a lower probability of harming their experience. Those at higher levels that only want to get to challenging, level appropriate content can move through the area without causing problems for players that actually want to be there.
I can't collect spider silk for my epic armor quest because I'm too high level? Nah. I'm shocked at how many people fail to understand how important it is to bring high level people back to low level areas.
If you need the silk, you should have to mentor down to the appropriate level. I'm not failing to understand anything here.
I really hope that Pantheon does not go the route that many mmo's are taking lately by gating new content with old content. I, and many others I know left EQ2 because they were forcing old content on players in order to get through new questlines. A max level player shouldn't have to farm newbie content for their high level progression. It isn't important to bring high level people back to low level areas, it is just a way to slow down progression without actually creating new and challenging content.
I hated that in EQ2 as well - it was so discouraging to having multiple characters - each one needing to do a boatload of the old content if you bought something new and actually wanted to play it.
We are discussing very painful and specialized old quest lines that many people skipped when they leveled up characters - not saying that to do new content a character shouldn't need to work its way up to the proper level by doing old content. That isn't a problem.
Porygon said:Watemper said:Yea I think if we go the trivial loot way when a mob is green or grey, making it impossible for higher levels to come back and farm lower level gear,if they want it for themselves or if they want it because it's good money on the market, then it will come down to what the pros and cons are to this and if the pros outweigh the cons.
Cons:
Players of X level can't go back and farm loot for themselves
This may cause less interaction with higher levels and lower levels...which is a bad thing overall.
Pros:
6 boxers won't be able to gate gear that is lower level easily
Higher levels won't rob a camp of the bosses they get allowing the group meant to be there to actually get loot.
Way more camps will be open instead of the one max level character taking a camp for himself for the boss loot.
Might make an insentive to have more alts.
That's all I can think of. So I would say more pros than cons with that system. So the next question is that is there a system that can mitigate any of the cons if this is implemented? The one that comes to my mind is the mentoring system. By scaling down to that level and mentoring someone you can go to those camps and the loot will be available to you still. For the second con if the dungeons, and zones are done right, then you should be interacting with higher levels regardless even if they can't go back and farm loot for themselves.
Few things. You dont design games based upon the smallest portion of the population (boxers). That's just dumb.
It's easy to look towards eq and the way people farm gear and say TLC is great. EQ had a TERRIBLE loot system in classic. The items did not scale with level and BIS items were found in level 20 zones. If pantheon creates a halfway decent loot system, theres 0 reason for higher levels to be in level 20 zones for loot.
Besides, you're main issue with no TLC is that boxers can farm the content as much as they want... but then you also want to allow mentored players to also farm the content... well you realize you could just mentor 1 character down and have him kill the mob with outside help. TLC wouldn't solve this issue lol.
If I really wanted to farm a level 20 item. I would just leave a character at whatever the max level is that they could still farm it and then have the rest of my group there for support.
My biggest issue with TLC is that in a brand new game. Where travel will be difficult, I might not even know about an item I can use until it's too late. So now I either have to buy it (which is probably a ridiculous price) or create an alt... which I have 0 interest in doing. It's just not a good system for a game designed with loot akin to eq.
My hope is that pantheon designs a game where level 50 chars are heading to level 40+ areas for loot. And have 0 reason to loot gear from lower level zones.
Sorry I don't think it is dumb if content blocking is a thing. I also never said I was for or against it. But to underestimate the boxers is very dumb imo.
Porygon said:EQ had a TERRIBLE loot system in classic. The items did not scale with level and BIS items were found in level 20 zones. If pantheon creates a halfway decent loot system, theres 0 reason for higher levels to be in level 20 zones for loot.
That was a huge PLUS if you ask me, and much more conducive to having a more "real" world. A much more believable world would be one in which even a goblin warlord from a lesser clan might have stumbled upon an item of great power at some point. With so many magical/powerful items existing in the world there would likely be many lost in the rise and fall of different civilizations, wars, and shifting populations. Think of Sméagol/Gollum from Lord of the Rings.
Allowing lower level players potential access to some worthwhile drops was a great boon, players of all levels could more readily participate in the economy and gearing a character wasn't such an obnoxious treadmill like it is in pretty much every game since WoW. It's one of the larger contributing factors to the mentality that the game starts at the end-game, because pretty much nothing you obtain or do before then is worthwhile. Spending time off from leveling to do a quest or try to farm a specific drop are mostly complete wastes of time because those items would be replaced within five or ten levels, so a player is mostly better off skipping them and grinding forward in levels.
While related, I'm still moving my post on TLC to another thread where it's the primary focus of the discussion: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1867/trivial-loot-code/view/post_id/182765
kreed99 said: Take for instance older content in EQ1.... lets say old world velious - Kael AOW cycle. To a level 110 it is trivial loot yet this encounter is permacamped for reasons. This is exactly why a trivial loot code is useful. A raid even slightly higher level than the content that still gains exp would still get the drops, but a solo’er that is over leveled and doesnt get any exp whatsoever does not get the drops. Its not a complete solution by any means but it helps curtail certain abuses.
Theres stuff in Kael a lvl 110 can use? The game was lvl 60 cap when Velious was released.
Actually I'm probably just as surprised that EQ level cap is 110 or more, that sounds ridiculous considering it's origins.
I do like seeing higher levels deeper in Dungeons or running past, partly because if I am mid-way in and I wipe in a group, more often than not the higher levels will offer aid or rezzes and sometimes buffs. Likewise if I am leaving properly by heading back out of the dungeon I am also likely to offer aid to lower levels if I see them wipe or if they are in a sticky situation or dont see the 3 adds.
Naunet said:That first con is a massive negative for me - especially if they implement any sort of robust costume system. A very large percentage of my playtime is spent farming gear simply for its appearance. If the game was designed so you could only get that gear if you were in the level range, it would not hold me for very long.
It would also make things frustrating when leveling up. Say you're leveling and trying really hard to get a drop off some boss but you're never blessed by the RNG gods before you outlevel the boss. If loot is as rare as people seem to think it will be/want it to be, that could be a significant hindrance for the player when entering higher level content.
Yes, Being a slave to fashion, almost compulsory. Very much like vampires and their characteristic OCD- searching all Terminus for that just right accoutrement for your ensemble outfit-and telling everyone and everyone knows and smiles- thats Naunet, she's looking for that piece of lace, do you have it? you should give it to her-.. Levels? you don't care about levels for the look is ALL. That.... THAT is what I call Roleplay *standing ovation*. I knew a dwarf palladin what would not tank unless someone served him an alchoholic beverage, not as extreme but an aspect of character none-the-less that played a role.
However I would like to see cosmetics and trade skill items not subject to a TLC. I do like the idea of TLC but this forces responsibility on the higher level to leave the named that has the lore piece and possibly a fine hide -alone, because the same fine hide can drop off any common goblin runner. This allows an appropriate age to get the lore piece. The only drawback is the silly or fun clicky quest item that still works at later levels and is more of a fun thing than anything else. If the solution is to mentor down to get that item I am fine with that, for it would also mean learning the area- probably a new area as if I was a new player.
The need for alts would be handled in mentoring- mentor down to do archon newbie quests and factioning, pop back up to human main for multi-group or raid night, mentor down to do newbie faerthale quests and factioning. I am not sure if it will work that way but its a thought. Let alone progeny. This allows TLC, One char, lore, and no drop/no trade. "BP of warrior awesomeness rotting in AVP-7min o corpse timer" as we move on for it means nothing to us, coin and merchants are just part of immersion, no real economy.
I must say I have learned how to drop the other shoe from the NBG discussions as previously I wondered what to do with the old item- it took up bag space!. Now it's obvious to offer the old item to the group for a roll where I abstain since my old item that I upgraded will be merchant fodder for the group. Thank you.
Powerleveling, is not a game mechanic as far as I know. One joins a year later and is my friend- great, we can still be friends. If they play more , or if I play less at some time we may catch up to each other, if not, they make their own in game groups. We can still be in the same guild I could mentor down if I am not busy on my own adventures. The game will still stand on its own.
Fulton said:kreed99 said: Take for instance older content in EQ1.... lets say old world velious - Kael AOW cycle. To a level 110 it is trivial loot yet this encounter is permacamped for reasons. This is exactly why a trivial loot code is useful. A raid even slightly higher level than the content that still gains exp would still get the drops, but a solo’er that is over leveled and doesnt get any exp whatsoever does not get the drops. Its not a complete solution by any means but it helps curtail certain abuses.Theres stuff in Kael a lvl 110 can use? The game was lvl 60 cap when Velious was released.
Actually I'm probably just as surprised that EQ level cap is 110 or more, that sounds ridiculous considering it's origins.
The items from AOW cycle are generally tradable, thus making them available for sale. Either these 110 players just want to make money or want to keep items off the marketplace so thier own items are worth more. Thats why i said “reasons”. I have my max level character as a level 86. Yes 110 is ridiculous. They have revisited Kunark and Velious at higher levels. It is crazytown now.