From an RP perspective. Everyone can "consider" everyone. If I am much stronger than you, I can tell just by looking (gray con). If you're much stronger than me, I can tell by looking (red con). But my granularity is bad. If I'm 10, I don't know if you're 1, 2, or 3, but I know you're less than 5. Only in the "we are well matched" range can I discern a little more about you (green, light blue, white/black, yellow). As an adventurer, my skill in considering opponents around my own skill is much more developed than an NPC.
An NPC, however, doesn't have "power blindness". They just aren't as good at evaluating "lesser" threats. Basically, they can see if I "con red" to them and fearfully leave me alone unless i provoke them (proximity or hostile action). If I'm anything but red to them, they do their job defending, calling for help, etc.
On the "meta" side, it's trivial to fix the "high-level farm" problem with trivial loot code. If you don't get xp for the kill (grey/green) you don't get drops, named or otherwise. You can "mentor" down and group up and get your drops to clear out that quest log.
Given the FAQ states that the perception (quest) system can be participated in at any time. Even waiting til max level to start, i'm sure they have some good ideas about how this system plays out.
In my perfect vision, there'd be no point to a level 50 entering a level 30 area unless their intent is to mentor or grief. With the former greatly encouraged and the latter greatly punished.
Naunet said:
If mobs don't drop loot... How the heck do you expect a player to go back and level their crafting? How do you expect someone to go back and maybe farm mats to make some coin because they're not strong enough to take on valuable stuff at their current level or above? How do you expect someone to catch up in gear if they fall behind? How do you expect someone to go and experience old content they missed while leveling?
This whole concept is completely alien to me. Not once in any MMO I've played have I thought, "Gee, I really wish low level mobs didn't give anything to higher level players."
[edit] Oops, sorry for the double post. Meant to edit in.
You harvests nodes for crafting. If the mobs are non aggro because of level then you just harvest even easier. I can think of nothing worse than some high levels destroying low level dungeons to get loot to salvage to level themselves or an alts crafting. Making outlevelled mobs not drop loot fixes this, unless it's for skinning then it's okay because you are still harvesting aswell.
Naunet said:
If mobs don't drop loot... How the heck do you expect a player to go back and level their crafting? How do you expect someone to go back and maybe farm mats to make some coin because they're not strong enough to take on valuable stuff at their current level or above? How do you expect someone to catch up in gear if they fall behind? How do you expect someone to go and experience old content they missed while leveling?
This whole concept is completely alien to me. Not once in any MMO I've played have I thought, "Gee, I really wish low level mobs didn't give anything to higher level players."
[edit] Oops, sorry for the double post. Meant to edit in.
IIRC, in EQ, trivial mobs didn't drop useable loot, but they still dropped misc stuff like coins, bones, pelts, etc. It was the "non-vendor trash" loot that didn't drop.
This might be hard to explain, since in more recent games, useable gear dropped so frequently, that it was hard to really quantify some things from trash.
In EQ, the gear player sought after tended to be more rare and lasted many more levels than more recent games.
Fulton said:Naunet said:
If mobs don't drop loot... How the heck do you expect a player to go back and level their crafting? How do you expect someone to go back and maybe farm mats to make some coin because they're not strong enough to take on valuable stuff at their current level or above? How do you expect someone to catch up in gear if they fall behind? How do you expect someone to go and experience old content they missed while leveling?
This whole concept is completely alien to me. Not once in any MMO I've played have I thought, "Gee, I really wish low level mobs didn't give anything to higher level players."
[edit] Oops, sorry for the double post. Meant to edit in.
IIRC, in EQ, trivial mobs didn't drop useable loot, but they still dropped misc stuff like coins, bones, pelts, etc. It was the "non-vendor trash" loot that didn't drop.
This might be hard to explain, since in more recent games, useable gear dropped so frequently, that it was hard to really quantify some things from trash.
In EQ, the gear player sought after tended to be more rare and lasted many more levels than more recent games.
Uh ? Where are you coming from ? EQ had not restrictive loot policy, that's why so many high level killed Emperor Crush (too high level for exp group here, not worth making a group to kill) or farmed the FBSS alone.
Edit : did you mean EQ2 maybe ?
Naunet said:Jabir said:Because XP-leveling opens up new content for you, it's imperative that it also effectively "closes down" content by trivialising it as you out-level it. Otherwise, low-level players suffer when high-level dittos interact with "their" content; it doesn't matter if the high-levels have bad intentions or not.This simply doesn't happen in most MMOs to the degree people seem to want to claim.
Evidently, there are different opinions on this.
Naunet said:Closing off low level content also means that as you level, the game gets smaller and smaller - a horrible idea.
Edit: I see now that you may have thought I meant to make certain areas completely off-limits in some way. Nothing could be more wrong, I love the open world concept.
Actually, the world gets bigger, but the amount of appropriate content remains more or less the same. This will be true, regardless, except for the end game where everything about leveling breaks down. What we're discussing here is whether content that wasn't designed for you, and no longer presents any challenge to you, must forever keep on yielding anything of value to you and whether mobs should keep on attacking you. If it didn't have a negative impact on the game in general, I would have no objections, but it really does, IMO.
MauvaisOeil said:Jabir said:Because XP-leveling opens up new content for you, it's imperative that it also effectively "closes down" content by trivialising it as you out-level it. Otherwise, low-level players suffer when high-level dittos interact with "their" content; it doesn't matter if the high-levels have bad intentions or not. I have read all the arguments for the opposite point-if-view, and I acknowledge some of them as real concerns to be adressed, but my position remains the same.
Wait, I missed that. It's complete non-sense. The viability of the game is based on how you unlock content when growing your character, but not at the cost of anything else. Which game, and especially which playerbase would accept to be expelled from a "range" of content because they are too high now. How can they get revenge of ennemies ? Casualy visit areas of a dungeon they missed in early levels and testing different nameds ?
That's probably amongst the most limitative proposition I've seen here, and it would severly hinder the experience of players as much as their feeling of accomplishment throught leveling. It's as bad as thoses games that sync you in every area you go, making your levelling completely useless and underwhelming. Why do you take a level ? To unlock new areas or to overcome encounters ?
I wouldn't call any of your statements "nonsense", but I completely fail to understand what point you're making with those last two, I assume rhetoric questions.
You really had to dig deep to find examples of how my view would "hinder the experience", didn't you? Taking revenge on mobs that you've totally outgrown? Come on! Even so, nothing would prevent you from doing that. I never said that you should be expelled from any content. I just don't think you should be rewarded for engaging it in terms of XP and loot, hence the term "trivializing".
As for the agro thing, I do think that having NPC's running all over the place in a futile attempt to fight high-level characters in a mixed-level zone is an annoyance to appropriate level players. If anything, making lower NPC's ignore you, makes these locations more accessible to you, not less.
Jabir said:Because XP-leveling opens up new content for you, it's imperative that it also effectively "closes down" content by trivialising it as you out-level it. Otherwise, low-level players suffer when high-level dittos interact with "their" content; it doesn't matter if the high-levels have bad intentions or not. I have read all the arguments for the opposite point-if-view, and I acknowledge some of them as real concerns to be adressed, but my position remains the same.
I would hate to be in an appropriate-level group on the first floor of Black Rose Keep, slowly progressing with care and deliberation, only to have the experience interrupted repeatedly by people passing on their way to the upper floors. No malicious intent needed, just a little carelessnes. In fact, from what we've seen there would be no way for the high-levelers to get to "their" content without agroing low-level mobs and causing chaos on the first floor. Pantheon is different from most other MMO's in that the zones will be mixed and open, and this calls for other means of level separation. Likewise, it would be frustrating to be exposed to insanely unfair competition while hunting/skinning rat pelts.
I honestly don't care if high-levels can no longer benefit from low-level content. They've had their chance and have a lot of other stuff to do now. If your crafting is much lower than your adventuring, you chose it to be so; wipe your eyes, hunt something appropriate and go trade it on the market. The chance that it would cause inflation (as @Naunet claims) is not greater than it causing deflation if high-levels were allowed to speed-farm.
So, my vote goes to: No agro when the level difference reaches a certain level and progressively poorer loot and XP upto this point (probably with the exclusion of quest loot).
Even though your points are well intended, where ever you have any dungeon with low-high progression, there is always unintended and intended interaction.
If high level content is past low level content, there is going to be be constant interaction. Even assuming a higher level can simple waltz past npc's a few level lower than them on their way to those npc's a few levels higher than them. There will always be trains back through the lower level content as the higher levels run for the zone.
And the higher level group will always have a lower level with them and thus still be aggroing all the lower content regardless of it being green or gray to them.
Something will drop in the higher level area that nobody needs and a lower level will try to get to it.
There are so many examples of how dungeons like this get very messy and stay messy.
Typically there will be so many groups around that spawns will be killed as soon as they appear. And any named will be perma-camped.
Just having a high level named around a bunch of lowbie NPC's just means there is a reason for the high levels to be there clearing the lowbies.
vladrynne said:In my perfect vision, there'd be no point to a level 50 entering a level 30 area unless their intent is to mentor or grief. With the former greatly encouraged and the latter greatly punished.
Power-leveling friends, guildies.
Farming faction.
Farming crafting items.
Harvesting for use or profit.
Quest items. Maybe you or a friend, or an alt, are doing lowbie quests or otherwise that need some items from a lower level npc.
Exploring, maybe you never visitied the dungeon when you were 30ish.
Simply having fun. It was kind of fun to re-visit old lower dungeons that used to kick your butt when you were lower level. I did it on more than one occasion, (not to grief though).
zewtastic said:vladrynne said:In my perfect vision, there'd be no point to a level 50 entering a level 30 area unless their intent is to mentor or grief. With the former greatly encouraged and the latter greatly punished.
Power-leveling friends, guildies.
Farming faction.
Farming crafting items.
Harvesting for use or profit.
Quest items. Maybe you or a friend, or an alt, are doing lowbie quests or otherwise that need some items from a lower level npc.
Exploring, maybe you never visitied the dungeon when you were 30ish.
Simply having fun. It was kind of fun to re-visit old lower dungeons that used to kick your butt when you were lower level. I did it on more than one occasion, (not to grief though).
You forgot farming gear. This game wants gear to be meaningful. So, for instance in EQ, you would have lvl 50s camping the Frenzy camp in lguk for FBSS because its profit was really nice.
I think that is ultimately what people are afraid of. Is higher levels coming back to lower level zones to camp bosses. Don't know if sharding will help with that, but that is kind of a problem with open world that people have to deal with.
I thought this discussion was supposed to be about how trivial npcs react to you, not about what you get from killing them. I still think npcs ignoring enemies is silly. Oh well.
I think the trivial loot code is a heavy handed approach. If the goal is to prevent high level players from bothering low level players, then target the solution to exactly that. I would alter the loot rights function to include level. A high level player should only be able to loot enemies that have been uncontested kills, so level appropriate players have the ability to contest content. If the goal is to protect the low level players from high level players, then implement a system that targets that interaction, not one that penalizes high level players broadly.
If an over-leveled player does 90% of the damage to a trivial mob, but an even-leveled player does 10% of the damage, the even-leveled player should get 10% of the experience and 100% of the loot. That's just my opinion though.
Watemper said:zewtastic said:vladrynne said:In my perfect vision, there'd be no point to a level 50 entering a level 30 area unless their intent is to mentor or grief. With the former greatly encouraged and the latter greatly punished.
Power-leveling friends, guildies.
Farming faction.
Farming crafting items.
Harvesting for use or profit.
Quest items. Maybe you or a friend, or an alt, are doing lowbie quests or otherwise that need some items from a lower level npc.
Exploring, maybe you never visitied the dungeon when you were 30ish.
Simply having fun. It was kind of fun to re-visit old lower dungeons that used to kick your butt when you were lower level. I did it on more than one occasion, (not to grief though).
You forgot farming gear. This game wants gear to be meaningful. So, for instance in EQ, you would have lvl 50s camping the Frenzy camp in lguk for FBSS because its profit was really nice.
I think that is ultimately what people are afraid of. Is higher levels coming back to lower level zones to camp bosses. Don't know if sharding will help with that, but that is kind of a problem with open world that people have to deal with.
I didn't forget it, that is kind of what you are doing with power-leveling. And usually there is a trivial loot code in place so higher level will not get anything decent to drop for them. So the higher level has to kind of be in a support mode, healing, buffing etc. out of group, to keep from impacting drops for lower levels.
But who knows these days.
Ahh never played an MMO with trivial loot tables..or that I never realized that that was a thing since I never really go back and farm lower level bosses since I most likely got the gear I wanted while leveling. Also, I personally don't twink that much because then the game becomes boring when you aren't afraid of dying. I do hold on to gear I don't use for other classes I get a long the way in the chance that I do make charcter in that armor field. But I never really go out of my way to search for bosses with specific gear unless its BiS for me.
zewtastic said:Watemper said:zewtastic said:vladrynne said:In my perfect vision, there'd be no point to a level 50 entering a level 30 area unless their intent is to mentor or grief. With the former greatly encouraged and the latter greatly punished.
Power-leveling friends, guildies.
Farming faction.
Farming crafting items.
Harvesting for use or profit.
Quest items. Maybe you or a friend, or an alt, are doing lowbie quests or otherwise that need some items from a lower level npc.
Exploring, maybe you never visitied the dungeon when you were 30ish.
Simply having fun. It was kind of fun to re-visit old lower dungeons that used to kick your butt when you were lower level. I did it on more than one occasion, (not to grief though).
You forgot farming gear. This game wants gear to be meaningful. So, for instance in EQ, you would have lvl 50s camping the Frenzy camp in lguk for FBSS because its profit was really nice.
I think that is ultimately what people are afraid of. Is higher levels coming back to lower level zones to camp bosses. Don't know if sharding will help with that, but that is kind of a problem with open world that people have to deal with.
I didn't forget it, that is kind of what you are doing with power-leveling. And usually there is a trivial loot code in place so higher level will not get anything decent to drop for them. So the higher level has to kind of be in a support mode, healing, buffing etc. out of group, to keep from impacting drops for lower levels.
But who knows these days.
I really don't think trivial loot is a fresh breath in an environment where gear and ilvl aren't a constant sprint and quests aren't feeding you with items all along. There are reasons to get in a lower dungeon and some can be situationnal items or missing ones. A lvl 50/60 farming the FBSS because he needs it, having no haste items, should not be outcast of LGUK and submitted to trivial loot code because he needs it and no automated system can distinguish a need from a green hidden in a need. That's what community is for.
I really wouldn't like to be blocked from catching up, gathering gear or such. I'm not willing to make it a profit or kill low level areas for players of the concerned level, just to hop in if there's little crowd and find an area I can do withouth harming everyone.
MauvaisOeil said:Darch said:I think the point of this being an open world game is being lost on some of us... once a mob is on you, it is on you until one of you dies or zones. A lot of people are also assuming that people won't abuse the game mechanics.
Lets use BRK as an example "assuming" that the combat mechanics will be similar to EQ1. A level 60 tank (that can't invis or stealth) walks into BRK to meet his lvl 15 buddy that recently started and is in the lvl 25-30 area of the map. Everything that he walks past attacks him, but he just keeps walking because the enemies are hitting him for less damage than his HP is regenerating. 5 minutes later, the entire dungeon is following this guy swinging and missing 90% of the time or hitting him in his raid armor for 1-2 damage and he has lost a total of 300 of his 2,000 HP... he then turns around and kills the whole dungeon in a matter of seconds, leaving the 40 other players in BRK waiting for respawns... then it turns out that he is a jackass and decides to repeat his actions because he can.
In that scenario (that people would toatlly do just to troll) if someone wanted to grief a whole dungeon at least the other players would be able to compete if the lvl 60 player had to at least engage the enemies and continue to hold agro while running around collecting more NPCs. Aaaaaaand, if loot and money dropped from these low level NPCs for the level 60 there would be nothing the devs could do but politely ask the player to "share" with the other players in the area because the lvl 60 player is a paying customer just grinding easy cash/loot or traveling to see his friend... then traveling back out, then forgetting something for his friend, then traveling back out etc.
I think the devs have the right idea in this category. I think the alternatives would be having a "leash" distance for NPCs to follow and then whipe agro or group/raid instancing and none of us (most of us) really dont want that.
Edit: I'd like to add that I too have witnessed Dortea's experience in MMOs with high level character annihilating low level stuff just because they can and they know it will upset/discourage lower level players. This is called trolling :(
The same player tab cycle trought all mobs with an instant dot or debuff spell and he does roughly the same with only two keypresses per mob. Don't make it like it would solve any situation, non aggro mobs remain pullable at will and troll players will remain troll players.
Ok so you witnessed the same bad behavior, I agree it's possible our experience can differ, but how many time did it happen over the years and how much time did you get completely blocked over your total playtime ? It it really more than 0.1 or 0.01% of the time ?
If a player aggroed an NPC by tab targeting and using their resources to "pull" with a DoT or debuff that player would likely be a caster and they would likely die trying to pull a whole dungeon because they would have to stand still and tag every single thing in a room before moving on (or otherwise just single pull something... allowing other players to also pull).
And the bad behavior I witness was much more than .01% of the time, it was more like 60-70% because things like training other players became the norm on pvp servers. Not to mention, training will likely not be a punishable offense (because it is hard to prove it is intentional).
Players also often would kill NPCs far below their level (clearing entire zones sometimes) in attempts to get a rare spawn with total disregard for other players in the area... this would also happen much more than .01% of the time...
Players would also want to explore areas that they did not see when they were lower level but couldn't invis through the content, so they would kill everything in their path... also more than .01%
Raids would do the same before attempting a boss fight...
What is the draw to having NPCs attack you that you don't want to or need to engage aside from adding another time sync into the game that is already going to require a considerable amount of commitment from its community? If you say RP, I'll argue that NO NPC should just stand there when you are 20' away aiming a bow at it waiting for you to hit it before attacking you... unless you are stealth/invis as soon as you can see the NPC, the NPC can see you... how's that for RP? Where do you draw the line?
@Darch With or with or withouth trivial loot and such, people that want to hinder other's progression will cut it using their advantage. I'm not talking about Pvp servers for the sole reason it's not my game style and it allways lead to abuses for the sole reason humans do not want to loose whatever the cost is.
Non mages will have ranged attacks too (Bow icon of the UI, not even a skill), some spells will even be instant, nothing does refrain players from area pulling and slaughtering by making them aggro off.
And I wouldn't speak about roleplay, it's simply world coherence. If the game is softened of every edge for gameplay, the game will feel like it is, it's not a matter of roleplay. It's like NPC fighting against the others, or mobs fleeing when low health, social aggro, etc... It's part of what makes the game a whole.
I do agree that trivial loot code isnt a complete answer. But its part of the conversation. I do respect the desire to go back at higher level and farm items you want/need. I do it all the time in EQ, but if we implement this we start on the path of making meaningful choices and assisting one of the founding systems, Mentoring. Aren't we trying to build the community instead of segregating it?
Getting back to the original subject - I really do feel that by implementing a form of non-aggro for higher level characters there are less chances for griefing and training. Most of the trains i witnessed came from some form of wanting to exit the zone or get to a certain place without stopping to kill every mob. If it is a raid zone i fully expect that i have to crawl my way to the boss even if they are grey. If its just some place like BRK thats easily entered then give us higher level people a break from the mindless killing if we do not wish it. The main reason i loved playing monks and rogues is because i could get places i needed to be quicker than most and un-molested. This would also make CR's a lot easier if you didnt have to worry about killing a large section of the zone to get back to where you were exp'ing. Being naked on a CR will have its own disadvantages to begin with especially if we factor in any acclimation or environments. Just some thoughts.
I have a suggestion and a question.
Green and/or gray conned mobs should likely not attack. Perhaps a slight RNG could be attached to give these situations an uncertain flavor.
What about named mobs of a similar con? Would we expect them to react differently than generic mobs?
Hokanu said: @OakKnower I like that concept.. And if disposition allocation is random then that would work nicely to tie that green/grey rng attack into the disposition system. Should green/grey join a fight you have started with other mobs even if they would not attack you on their own?
That could be part of the disposition / RNG element too I would imagine. Some might stay to support/defend while others might flee or do nothing.
Edit: Spelling
Yea I think if we go the trivial loot way when a mob is green or grey, making it impossible for higher levels to come back and farm lower level gear,if they want it for themselves or if they want it because it's good money on the market, then it will come down to what the pros and cons are to this and if the pros outweigh the cons.
Cons:
Players of X level can't go back and farm loot for themselves
This may cause less interaction with higher levels and lower levels...which is a bad thing overall.
Pros:
6 boxers won't be able to gate gear that is lower level easily
Higher levels won't rob a camp of the bosses they get allowing the group meant to be there to actually get loot.
Way more camps will be open instead of the one max level character taking a camp for himself for the boss loot.
Might make an insentive to have more alts.
That's all I can think of. So I would say more pros than cons with that system. So the next question is that is there a system that can mitigate any of the cons if this is implemented? The one that comes to my mind is the mentoring system. By scaling down to that level and mentoring someone you can go to those camps and the loot will be available to you still. For the second con if the dungeons, and zones are done right, then you should be interacting with higher levels regardless even if they can't go back and farm loot for themselves.