That first con is a massive negative for me - especially if they implement any sort of robust costume system. A very large percentage of my playtime is spent farming gear simply for its appearance. If the game was designed so you could only get that gear if you were in the level range, it would not hold me for very long.
It would also make things frustrating when leveling up. Say you're leveling and trying really hard to get a drop off some boss but you're never blessed by the RNG gods before you outlevel the boss. If loot is as rare as people seem to think it will be/want it to be, that could be a significant hindrance for the player when entering higher level content.
That's why I mention the mentoring system. If they make that system easy to use then you can mentor someone of the approriate level and go there and grab the piece.
Also, I would say gateing bosses behind boxers is way more of a massive negative than the first. Why...because I guarantee you won't be able to get the gear anyways if they monopolize it. So then you would have to buy 5 more accounts and level them all up and try to farm that piece of gear. Also, downloading all the of third party programs and the auto click bs to cast or do things more instantly. Btw...very hard to detect. In EQ, even if there were shards, krono farmers, and people who just want to monoplize gear, would make it nearly impossible to get items like GEBs and so forth. Even on true box servers people have 6 computers and will do that bs lol.
Sharding might mitigate it..but ultimately it still doesn't go well. So first you have to assume you will even have a chance at that piece in the first place while others are there fighting for it.
MauvaisOeil said:zewtastic said:Watemper said:zewtastic said:vladrynne said:In my perfect vision, there'd be no point to a level 50 entering a level 30 area unless their intent is to mentor or grief. With the former greatly encouraged and the latter greatly punished.
Power-leveling friends, guildies.
Farming faction.
Farming crafting items.
Harvesting for use or profit.
Quest items. Maybe you or a friend, or an alt, are doing lowbie quests or otherwise that need some items from a lower level npc.
Exploring, maybe you never visitied the dungeon when you were 30ish.
Simply having fun. It was kind of fun to re-visit old lower dungeons that used to kick your butt when you were lower level. I did it on more than one occasion, (not to grief though).
You forgot farming gear. This game wants gear to be meaningful. So, for instance in EQ, you would have lvl 50s camping the Frenzy camp in lguk for FBSS because its profit was really nice.
I think that is ultimately what people are afraid of. Is higher levels coming back to lower level zones to camp bosses. Don't know if sharding will help with that, but that is kind of a problem with open world that people have to deal with.
I didn't forget it, that is kind of what you are doing with power-leveling. And usually there is a trivial loot code in place so higher level will not get anything decent to drop for them. So the higher level has to kind of be in a support mode, healing, buffing etc. out of group, to keep from impacting drops for lower levels.
But who knows these days.
I really don't think trivial loot is a fresh breath in an environment where gear and ilvl aren't a constant sprint and quests aren't feeding you with items all along. There are reasons to get in a lower dungeon and some can be situationnal items or missing ones. A lvl 50/60 farming the FBSS because he needs it, having no haste items, should not be outcast of LGUK and submitted to trivial loot code because he needs it and no automated system can distinguish a need from a green hidden in a need. That's what community is for.
I really wouldn't like to be blocked from catching up, gathering gear or such. I'm not willing to make it a profit or kill low level areas for players of the concerned level, just to hop in if there's little crowd and find an area I can do withouth harming everyone.
I am not a proponent of TLC. But I can see why games have it.
Using a specific outlyer example does not justify your reasoning. In a game where all items are tradable, an FBSS could also be purchased by a higher level character with items or money more easily acquired at higher levels than lower. So there are alternatives.
And I am NOT a proponent of NBG in a game where items are all tradable and thus sellable. If a quality item drops, any class can use it to acquire what they need by selling or trading, it makes no sense why just because one class can actually immediately use it they should have it.
zewtastic said:And I am NOT a proponent of NBG in a game where items are all tradable and thus sellable. If a quality item drops, any class can use it to acquire what they need by selling or trading, it makes no sense why just because one class can actually immediately use it they should have it.
Because people have been convinced that want = need over nearly the past decade and a half. I just don't see any valid argument for NBG in a (nearly) fully tradable item environment.
NBG is but one of many options that are usually available. A lot of players tend to use it as default and there are plenty of reasons for that. If a sword drops that is an upgrade to a single player in the group, it makes sense to allow that player to loot the sword because it's going to provide an immediate impact to the entire group. If a wizard wants to roll on that item I view that as greed. Sure they could sell the item and eventually buy something else with it but it does nothing for the group they are currently playing with. I view that kind of player as a mercenary for hire rather than someone I would add to my friends list and group up with again. To be fair this situation doesn't really come up all that often because I tend to run my own groups and loot rules are established from the get-go.
When you have friends you don't need to worry as much about selling items to buy something else that you want. Your friends will help you get whatever you need. As a hypothetical let's just say that the sword in question is one of the best situational swords in the game. What group would you rather be in? The band of mercenaries for hire where everybody is looking to sell the item for a chunk of change, or the group of friends who are focused on helping one or two players get highly desirable upgrades? They help you get something you want and you return the favor later. I'd rather find myself in that situation, consistently, as opposed to having a 1/6 chance of looting every single drop.
oneADseven said:NBG is but one of many options that are usually available. A lot of players tend to use it as default and there are plenty of reasons for that. If a sword drops that is an upgrade to a single player in the group, it makes sense to allow that player to loot the sword because it's going to provide an immediate impact to the entire group. If a wizard wants to roll on that item I view that as greed. Sure they could sell the item and eventually buy something else with it but it does nothing for the group they are currently playing with. I view that kind of player as a mercenary for hire rather than someone I would add to my friends list and group up with again. To be fair this situation doesn't really come up all that often because I tend to run my own groups and loot rules are established from the get-go.
When you have friends you don't need to worry as much about selling items to buy something else that you want. Your friends will help you get whatever you need. As a hypothetical let's just say that the sword in question is one of the best situational swords in the game. What group would you rather be in? The band of mercenaries for hire where everybody is looking to sell the item for a chunk of change, or the group of friends who are focused on helping one or two players get highly desirable upgrades? They help you get something you want and you return the favor later. I'd rather find myself in that situation, consistently, as opposed to having a 1/6 chance of looting every single drop.
Yeah, that is technically right. I usually run my groups as NBG also, since it kind of feels bad when you loot something someone can actually use. But there are also people who say they need something and then sell it later on anways without getting an Upgrade, hence the mercenery style of gameplay where it's just fair no matter what drops. You either win it or lose it.
Now if they had every piece of gear be something like bind on equip, like in WoW, I would like that type of system much more and would be more at ease with NBG with strangers. If you need it then you wear it and if you don't wear it then you get kicked.
But even with that type of system the player could already have one that he wears and a downgrade and wear the downgraded item, win a second piece he already has, and then wear the one he has already and profit off the second one he won. But that will only work once in a group so he would have to leave and find a new group doing that, and if someone from an old group caught him then he would be blacklisted pretty quickly haha.
Watemper said:NBG usually applies to No Drop items.
You would think. And thats fairly obvious of course, why loot something you could never use, sell or trade. The exception is the game that lets rare items be scavenged for rare crafting ingredients or otherwise. Which Pantheon sounds like it will have, based on the Oct newsletter.
But I have too rarely had the experience of NBG being just for NoDrop. Many players think it applies to any drops, always. Oh it's cleric, druid, shaman. I get all those items the cleric says.
zewtastic said:Watemper said:NBG usually applies to No Drop items.
You would think. And thats fairly obvious of course, why loot something you could never use, sell or trade. The exception is the game that lets rare items be scavenged for rare crafting ingredients or otherwise. Which Pantheon sounds like it will have, based on the Oct newsletter.
But I have too rarely had the experience of NBG being just for NoDrop. Many players think it applies to any drops, always. Oh it's cleric, druid, shaman. I get all those items the cleric says.
I was always in groups of a more NBG Round robin type. Once you got an item, you were greed until everyone had something or they were willing to let you have it, or someone traded your other drop for this new one.
Fulton said:zewtastic said:Watemper said:NBG usually applies to No Drop items.
You would think. And thats fairly obvious of course, why loot something you could never use, sell or trade. The exception is the game that lets rare items be scavenged for rare crafting ingredients or otherwise. Which Pantheon sounds like it will have, based on the Oct newsletter.
But I have too rarely had the experience of NBG being just for NoDrop. Many players think it applies to any drops, always. Oh it's cleric, druid, shaman. I get all those items the cleric says.
I was always in groups of a more NBG Round robin type. Once you got an item, you were greed until everyone had something or they were willing to let you have it, or someone traded your other drop for this new one.
I have been in groups that tried that. It only works in a fixed group where nobody ever leaves. Problem is that grouping is typically much more dynamic, especially in a PUG. Someone is always leaving and joining and keeping track quickly loses it's meaning.
zewtastic said:
I am not a proponent of TLC. But I can see why games have it.
Using a specific outlyer example does not justify your reasoning. In a game where all items are tradable, an FBSS could also be purchased by a higher level character with items or money more easily acquired at higher levels than lower. So there are alternatives.
And I am NOT a proponent of NBG in a game where items are all tradable and thus sellable. If a quality item drops, any class can use it to acquire what they need by selling or trading, it makes no sense why just because one class can actually immediately use it they should have it.
That's not something you can make a rule. The ability to farm money isn't tied entirely to level but also to class, and gear, which create a loop.
A good example beeing the AC back then, constantly camped but not every class could farm it solo, especially Melees with no healing power, and thoses were extremely dependant on gear as well. So either you are greatly geared / of the right class, either you're cut out of this "money income".
This does create a loop since gear allows easier farming or harder area accessibility, which translates in easier farming.
As a rogue (worst soloing class hands down), I often relied on mid level areas to farm cash if I wasn't stealing all precious crap from my XP group (which hindered their cash gain...), because I was naturally cast out of every profitable solo drop, MQ or paying vendor salvage drops. I'm pretty sure most warriors, paladins, clerics and rangers felt the same or close, and relied on things like "Fine Steel Weapons" for some income in late nights. Sisters isle beeing the same untill higher levels, etc.. etc... (not even speaking of FBSS here, an unreachable goal for a level 50 to 60 rogue).
Fulton said:zewtastic said:Watemper said:NBG usually applies to No Drop items.
You would think. And thats fairly obvious of course, why loot something you could never use, sell or trade. The exception is the game that lets rare items be scavenged for rare crafting ingredients or otherwise. Which Pantheon sounds like it will have, based on the Oct newsletter.
But I have too rarely had the experience of NBG being just for NoDrop. Many players think it applies to any drops, always. Oh it's cleric, druid, shaman. I get all those items the cleric says.
I was always in groups of a more NBG Round robin type. Once you got an item, you were greed until everyone had something or they were willing to let you have it, or someone traded your other drop for this new one.
Well they have said in pantheon that it they may have more organic boss spawns...not sure what that means, but I remember being in groups, like the hhk goblin camp, where it was just alphabetical looting. So, since my name was W I am usually last in looting lol. Anyways, it was an interesting system because of not having the advanced loot system but splitting up the loot like that was interesting.
Actually now that I think about it the majority of my groups did something like that.
zewtastic said:... The exception is the game that lets rare items be scavenged for rare crafting ingredients or otherwise. Which Pantheon sounds like it will have, based on the Oct newsletter.
Yep. Salvaging is the justification for everyone to "need" on everything. I need it for salvaging. You need it for salvaging. My alt needs it for salvaging. My guild needs it for salvaging. We all need it for salvaging.
TBH I have never run into anyone who would need a no drop for salvaging over someone who needs it for an upgrade lol...but I am sure there are people out there who do it. Personally wouldn't group with people that have that mind set lol...but to each and there own I guess.
Edit: This topic has really gotten off topic...like A lot. Anyways, I think the whole grey and greens not aggroing is fine with me. I mean if we are talking about immersion when mobs die they should die and not spawn back...but you know we have to be reminded that it is a game lol. Maybe for a compromise if you reach a threshold of a kill count on a certain group of mobs, and they are green and grey...they won't mess with you because they technically know that you having been kicking their arses for a while now. However, if you go to a new place that is grey and green, but not kills, then since they don't know you at all they might just attack you unknowingly and be cocky about it.
I've always greeded on any item that the character I'm playing can't use even if no one in the group can use it all should greed, the only time I need on an item is if it is an upgrade to the character I'm on. If everyone in the group does the same all get loot to salvage,give to alts, sell whatever.
People that need for salvaging or need because they're greedy and want money will soon be blacklisted by me.
Watemper said:TBH I have never run into anyone who would need a no drop for salvaging over someone who needs it for an upgrade lol...but I am sure there are people out there who do it. Personally wouldn't group with people that have that mind set lol...but to each and there own I guess.
Edit: This topic has really gotten off topic...like A lot. Anyways, I think the whole grey and greens not aggroing is fine with me. I mean if we are talking about immersion when mobs die they should die and not spawn back...but you know we have to be reminded that it is a game lol. Maybe for a compromise if you reach a threshold of a kill count on a certain group of mobs, and they are green and grey...they won't mess with you because they technically know that you having been kicking their arses for a while now. However, if you go to a new place that is grey and green, but not kills, then since they don't know you at all they might just attack you unknowingly and be cocky about it.
Yes it has gotten off topic, but maybe ok in this situation. Talking about loot and drops is germane to the overarching discussion.
"TBH I have never run into anyone who would need a no drop for salvaging over someone who needs it for an upgrade lol...but I am sure there are people out there who do it. "
Oh there are.
I had never run into a player that purposely trained players in dungeons just so they can log in a cleric to get donations for rezzes. But I outted a guy on these forums for doing exactly that in EQ1.
Watemper said:TBH I have never run into anyone who would need a no drop for salvaging over someone who needs it for an upgrade lol...but I am sure there are people out there who do it. Personally wouldn't group with people that have that mind set lol...but to each and there own I guess.
What if the salvage they desire only comes from rare drops and is used for an upgrade for their own equipment?
Iksar said:Watemper said:TBH I have never run into anyone who would need a no drop for salvaging over someone who needs it for an upgrade lol...but I am sure there are people out there who do it. Personally wouldn't group with people that have that mind set lol...but to each and there own I guess.
What if the salvage they desire only comes from rare drops and is used for an upgrade for their own equipment?
I mean sure. You said rare drops so I assume you also mean rare no drop items if they do add that into the game. Even in WoW, with personal loot, only some people salvage personal loot they get in raids and don't need. Most times they ask first if anyone wants to roll on it lol, or they will hold onto it and hopefully trade it for another piece later on while the timer allows them to trade it among raiders. Same with dungeon personal loot. I do that soo if nothing I need drops I either have them roll on it or I do end up disenchanting it for material..but it is under the concept of personal loot rather than raid/group loot and still people are more proned to not salavaging it and giving it to people who need it for an upgrade...or even for an offspec lol.
So if you are telling me that WoW players...current ones, I will say msotly do it because I know there are some that don't, usually give personal loot to people who need it rather than salavge it for materials and sell the material for profit/ or making gear...then I would be surprised if alot of people honestly will do something like that in a EQ esqe community.
So..if people do that..thats fine. It's their choice how they want to game, but it will be my choice that I won't make an attempt to group with people with that mindset usually. And I am confident if this community is anything like the EQ community that the majority of people won't do that.
So overall even in that situation Iksar I won't group with them if they do that too no drop gear. I would only group with that type of group if I am just mainly looking for exp though. However, I do get the mindset that everything is on a need basis and if you win you can do w/e you want with the piece you win. So I am fine in that sense if I know the group I am getting into is doing that. But I will be more proned to remembering there names and not make an attempt to grouping with them in the future. I tend to try to fill my friends list up with like minded players so I can enjoy my time and enviroment a lot more than have the need on everything enviroment. I get the concept of it, but I just don't like gaming with that mindset.
Now I will say this. If there is a certain drop that you can only get this certain salvaged material from, and that gear peice is no drop, and it is to make a piece of gear for an upgrade or w/e..then I understand that. Or group of items to I guess. But if pantheon does something like that pertaining to no drop gear, if they even implement no drop gear in the first place, then it will just be annoying over all.
Watemper said:Now I will say this. If there is a certain drop that you can only get this certain salvaged material from, and that gear peice is no drop, and it is to make a piece of gear for an upgrade or w/e..then I understand that. Or group of items to I guess. But if pantheon does something like that pertaining to no drop gear, if they even implement no drop gear in the first place, then it will just be annoying over all.
Honestly I don't picture it being a thing for the most part. Off the top of my head I can't think of any mob dropped rare no-drop gear in (early) EQ that wasn't from raiding...almost all the dungeon/group no-drop items had bad stats or were otherwise common enough drops that they often went to rot, so even if EQ had salvaging it wouldn't have likely upset people.
^ Well maybe for people who beta tested and knew the game. But when casual people got there first peice with that +1 str..or +1 w/e stat...it was very precious lol. Getting my first crappy magic weapon for ghouls in UR was precious..did it suck...yeah...but Holy crap I loved the idea of killing things I couldn't touch before. So the problem with a salvaging type of system is that you need more gear drops in general then for it to be worth while imo. If that isn't the case then I don't know how good it will be. Or if gear is sparse if it will be even used at all. If gear is sparse and people salvage it..then that might piss off more people in general lol. Anyways, I think it comes down to the balance of drops vs salvaging then. Which will be tricky since they want gear to be meaningful...yet at the same time implement a system that will want you to destroy that peice of gear essentially for crafting or profit.
So, will just have to see how they do it...but it will be tricky imo to make meaningful gear to get and salvaging co-exist together. Might be done if they put in crappy gear..but that will be poor design choice imo soo will see.
Watemper said:^ Well maybe for people who beta tested and knew the game. But when casual people got there first peice with that +1 str..or +1 w/e stat...it was very precious lol. Getting my first crappy magic weapon for ghouls in UR was precious..did it suck...yeah...but Holy crap I loved the idea of killing things I couldn't touch before. So the problem with a salvaging type of system is that you need more gear drops in general then for it to be worth while imo. If that isn't the case then I don't know how good it will be. Or if gear is sparse if it will be even used at all. If gear is sparse and people salvage it..then that might piss off more people in general lol. Anyways, I think it comes down to the balance of drops vs salvaging then. Which will be tricky since they want gear to be meaningful...yet at the same time implement a system that will want you to destroy that peice of gear essentially for crafting or profit.
So, will just have to see how they do it...but it will be tricky imo to make meaningful gear to get and salvaging co-exist together. Might be done if they put in crappy gear..but that will be poor design choice imo soo will see.
I'd bet we will see more gear drops than EQ...a lot more given the desire for players to need different situational gear for all kinds of climates and mob types, lots of horizontal upgrading. Paired with how they have said they don't want people getting stuck in a bottleneck waiting on specific items like FBSS etc, which they mentioned having multiple locations in the world having equal or nearly equivalent item drops as well as the possibility that crafters will be able to make almost any dropped item in the game.
That is true. But I think the devs need to be careful. Because they said they want meaningful gear..however if I am replacing peices of gear every level then what is meaningful about my previous gear.
I guess an example of this would be the ghoulbane in EQ. I spent lvl 20-25 questing for that piece. After that I never replaced it until in my 40s when I did soulfire, which required the ghoulbane as a quest piece.
That to me is meaningful gear.
I do understand situational gear though and how they aren't really an upgrade. So are we just going to get all the best loot at the early levels and as we go up in level the higher level dungeons drop situational gear? Probably not. Even in EQ the higher level the dungeons you went to the better the gear was for some slots. There was just maybe one or two pieces of gear in specific dungeons that you could pratically keep until end game. However, that was what created the bottle neck, but also the sense of meaningful gear.
Personal Opinion: I think seeing more gear drop gives a sense of less meaning to gear in general...
Guess they will just have to go with equal drops in several different zones that have roughly the same stats and can be used for end game rather than having to travel for a piece of gear...which was also fun to do.
Watemper said:TBH I have never run into anyone who would need a no drop for salvaging over someone who needs it for an upgrade lol...but I am sure there are people out there who do it. Personally wouldn't group with people that have that mind set lol...but to each and there own I guess.
Edit: This topic has really gotten off topic...like A lot. Anyways, I think the whole grey and greens not aggroing is fine with me. I mean if we are talking about immersion when mobs die they should die and not spawn back...but you know we have to be reminded that it is a game lol. Maybe for a compromise if you reach a threshold of a kill count on a certain group of mobs, and they are green and grey...they won't mess with you because they technically know that you having been kicking their arses for a while now. However, if you go to a new place that is grey and green, but not kills, then since they don't know you at all they might just attack you unknowingly and be cocky about it.
It certainly has drifted off-topic, thanks for trying to bring it back on topic :)
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