LFG all day long....
It is so major when those that put a fair bit into accounts, or more then 1 account has to sit all day LFG. I just cant do it again....
So the LFG tools at hand has to be one tool, to handle the server wide LFG of all players, and has to be refreshed all the time. We need the abilities to be able to LFG, and add notes to it for others to determine if your fit is there.
Most of all, as soon as you type /lfg it has to bring up a window or something allowing you to input your info. But to clearly have 2 systems makes it hard to find the right people such as /lfg on which bypassed other systems such as /lfg tool. Just saying this is annoying and is hard to find those around the world.
Not sure how many others out there are like me??
I wanted to also mention is the balance that also causes problems with LFG such as the low tank and spank groups needed in a tight dungeon. If you do not have enough tanks your sitting LFG all the time. So where do we stand as casters this round?
You're not alone. VR has said many times that a large portion of their target audience simply does not have enough time in the day to spend hours sitting LFG. That doesn't make for an enjoyable experience and is definitely something that can and should be improved upon. There will be multiple tools (including an LFG window) to help you find groups and stay together, without trivializing travel, so that you can get the most out of your play time. For some of Brad's thoughts on this, check out his blog post: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/183/matchmaking-systems-what-we-re-up-to-and-why-part-1
I fully am on board of those systems, and dont take my post completely wrong either. I felt that spreading out some of the systems such as Higher lvl areas is a key importance. Not to dum down a LFG system that you auto port to the group and fight. That will make it too easy. What i suggest is more a system that is inline with everyones values such as 1 tool for LFG. You are rewarded for filling that group and hindered by not. Meaning the bonus may apply for groups but if you solo it is no bonus. Making grouping more essential to do.
Key classes also balance out the groups, so that if no tanks are online it isnt only a tank and spank game like EQ is. We will have the ability to find enough content to solo, duo, or caster group. Not just the tank and spank mobs of those areas. Mainly would require outdoors or larger caves to fight in. The major issues is the lack of content in any EQ TLP server when you have all but casters playing and no outdoor content available. This is where you travel and your time i spent looking for groups, and or locations to play in. All because the initial tank and spank characters are too dull to play.
It is a nasty balance issue that you almost have to take everything you know and learn and toss it out the door. Re develop the system to get away from the same old issues of late.
Also the fact is EQ is very old now. People use it for what it is, krono farming, outside sales system. Its truely a sad game now. Honestly should be shut down, but we will see in the next couple of years. So whatever they farm by themselves means -0- items to share with others.
A simple payment system, gone mad.... Thus end result = no groups, everything is camped.
I agree, as almost all of us do, that hours spent waiting for a group is not the most enjoyable way to spend time. I look forward to seeing just how VR will make the process faster and better.
I note that some time waiting is inevitable, and there are several mechanisms to make this time less boring. One is a small group system - if a full group is 6 players and cannot do very much without a healer, tank and crowd control class, perhaps some content will be doable with a group of three without every role filled. If in dungeons, ideally a small group dungeon will be near a full group dungeon so that when the group succeeeds in expanding to "real" group content there won't be too much of an issue getting from one to the other.
Another mechanism that will help some but not all of us is a robust crafting and harvesting system. Giving something useful at all levels not just level-cap or very low levels to do while waiting for a group to form.
Yes the small group mechanism has a downside - make it too easy and too productive and people will do that and not even try for a full group. Thus it would need to be like solo play - beneficial to the character rather than merely a waste of time, but inferior to full group content in both gear opportunities and experience per minute.
A big part of not sitting for hours LFG is going to be class balance, not that I am in favor or "perfect balance"; I'm not.
EQ had some really cool classes but they had unique situational usages. In Pantheon, if they can create classes that are more useful in all areas then at no point would someone say I don't want xyz becuase they would be useful regardless. Say, if you want DPS, then any class from the "DPS" group should suffice, same with tanking, healing etc. That doesn't mean each won't have pluses and minuses.
Yes. We don't want all classes to be the same (yawn) and we don't need them all to be of identical value. We do need all classes in the same role to be within a reasonable range of value to the group that none of them will be excluded unless a specific major fight requires a specific ability that the class cannot do well or at all.
Look, you cannot eat your cake and have it too.
If the game is soloable, you get another WoW. Another game where people don't care about community (because, for the most part, they don't need it). Where at the end game you have people without any skills except soloing, go into raids and make stupid mistakes. Where, because they didn't have to watch their behavior, the behavior is below any standard I would want to see.
You cannot make every class able to do everything, or everyone will be the same. If not everyone is able to do everything, then sometimes you will wait for the right combo before you can start. It's the price that has to be paid.
Good players will usually find a group. Sometimes not, but they will more often than not.
There will be travel involved, so, people won't be able to be LFG for the whole world at the same time. If you trivialize the travel, its time, difficulties and dangers, you trivialized a big chunk of the game. Again, you cannot eat your cake and have it too.
You cannot make everything super-automated in the UI. Otherwise people will play the UI instead of playing the game. Yes, talking to people, talking to groups, instead of clicking on a few icons in the LFG UI can be time-consuming. But it's that talking to people that's at the core of an online, group game. Remove that and you remove a large chunk of the social interaction.
This world has a ton of games that went that way. Most of them did not last long. Pantheon should not be yet another such... indeed, it was started with the idea that it won't be.
Crazzie said:Also the fact is EQ is very old now. People use it for what it is, krono farming, outside sales system. Its truely a sad game now. Honestly should be shut down, but we will see in the next couple of years. So whatever they farm by themselves means -0- items to share with others.
A simple payment system, gone mad.... Thus end result = no groups, everything is camped.
Verant/SOE used to be diligent about shutting down plat farmers and gold sellers.
Now? not so much
Aethor said:There will be travel involved, so, people won't be able to be LFG for the whole world at the same time. If you trivialize the travel, its time, difficulties and dangers, you trivialized a big chunk of the game. Again, you cannot eat your cake and have it too.
I don't know, I certainly looked for group over the whole world at the same time in EQ to get on as many lists as possible (if not directly into a group). Usually got a 10-15 minute heads up before someone was leaving a group so I could start making my way to whatever zone I needed to be in, which was usually enough time to make it or get fairly close thanks to ports/movespeed buffs.
I truly hate LFG tools. Everyone should have the ability to make friends and group up for content. If you're having an issue making friends to experience content with (and the game/server isn't just dead) then it's probably an issue with you personally.
LFG tools ruin the entire experience.
To be clear, I'm speaking of the tools that automatically group you with others for a specific dungeon, etc. If it's just a tool that shows others that you are LFG then I'm cool with that.
I don't think anyone is asking for blind invite/join buttons, automation, or instant travel to wherever the group is. Those things would run counter to Pantheon's stated goals.
However, that doesn't mean the LFG toolset needs to be just a super thin list of people who did /lfg or group leaders that did /lfm. We can still have an information rich LFG tool without detracting from communication between players.
There have been some other threads about this in the past, and at least from my reading I have found that this is one of the few areas where nearly the entire community agrees :)
@Lord Sora - I believe the accepted terminology is as follows...
LFG tools: An in game system that conveys the information of your desire to form or join a group. The information can be as limited as just your name or as deep as desired (your class, desired dungeon, desired camp, custom text area, etc.). Hunting through the system's LFG database can be done by anyone, but forming the group and inviting players is handled by the players themselves.
Dungeon Finder: An in game system that takes people who have indicated a desire to form a group and automatically forms a group once the system's pre-requisite conditions have been met. This bypasses the greeting and invitation phase. Dungeon finders don't have to, but can include a free port (WoW style) where the entire group is summoned to a dungeon's entrance once the group has formed.
There are some in the Pantheon community who prefer the dungeon finder system (they have their own valid reasons), but the majority seems to prefer LFG tools.
From my experience with EQ (using this as a template for 'travelling time' and projected LFG 'heads up' times) I cannot see any advantage in a server-wide LFG UI system! Nor, for that matter, an automated 'search within x zones'.
1. Distances:
In EQ, and later VG, travelling times we non-trivial. In EQ this was a function of zone topology, while in VG it was a function of pure distance. In both cases, you would want to start your search for LFG's in the current zone, then perhaps use a "/who LFG where 'zone X' is perhaps one of a few nearby zones. Much beyond this and the travel time could be significant. You are almost never going to do this unless there was a serious local shortage of players LFG.
2. Expectations:
There will have to be a certain amount of 'education' for newer players in how to get groups! Sitting in a City with an LFG flag on is just not going to cut it.
To give an EQ example, imagine a character in Freeport who is LFG and has a comment like "Orc Highway group preferred, or DW crocs if necessary".
This is just not going to cut it - at least until higher levels where some forms of fast travel is available, or more remote dungeons etc are requested. Players will have to learn to be proactive - to move to a staging area (likely near a zone line, or a dense area of mob camps) and setup as LFg there. Should that area be thin on groups, then some form of LFG UI which shows groups LFM, or using a search for LFG's in the nearby areas so you can all band together, is going to be something players are able to do.
While these points may seem draconian, perhaps anachronistic too, I do think that the challenge Pantheon is putting in place, coupled with larger zones, is going to make it impossible for a Terminus-wide LFG to work.
Imagine a level 7 character in EQ, sitting in Qeynos and LFG for a group in EC, BB or GFey. They would have no chance of getting there in less than a few hours! Who would want to wait for them to arrive when there would, inevitably, be many more players LFG either in-zone or next to it? This would extend upwards to level 20-25 in all likelihood (since fast travel will likely still be hard to obtain at even these levels).
3. Tools
There will be an LFG tool of some kind (even if it only a flag). In all likelihood it would allow a comment, though expecting it to have a check list or drop down for selecting a number of zones etc is asking for a lot of DEV effort. Best guess is a simple UI with limited functionality at least until after launch.
Evoras, suspects there will be little problem finding groups for a significant time after launch ...
Evoras said:While these points may seem draconian, perhaps anachronistic too, I do think that the challenge Pantheon is putting in place, coupled with larger zones, is going to make it impossible for a Terminus-wide LFG to work.
...
3. Tools
There will be an LFG tool of some kind (even if it only a flag). In all likelihood it would allow a comment, though expecting it to have a check list or drop down for selecting a number of zones etc is asking for a lot of DEV effort. Best guess is a simple UI with limited functionality at least until after launch.
Why limit the individual from LFG anywhere in the world if they so choose? Any potential groups they message can easily see the persons location and make their own choice to accept/deny the player. I know I often would search for groups across the world in EQ, whether it was Blackburrow to Crushbone or LGuk to SolB.
As for tools, Brad has already committed to a rather deep LFG toolset as talked about here:
and a bit toward the end here:
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-09-28-brad-mcquaid-i-want-to-make-worlds-not-games
I think this is where the match-making tool will help, because as I understand it you wil lbe able to find who is on during your play times or around your play times.
I hope Pantheon has enough going so I can manage the time around dry times, like soloing or crafting, or being able to idenfity what I can;t do alone but maybe with one more. and if two more are available thats a full group waiting to happen but wont take away form the current projects or quest goals.
But I know what you mean by wanting to do something like progress in a quest, check out another level in a dungeon or another area in a zone and not beiong able to because no one is around or free.
If you do not want to be lfg , there are basicly two options.
The first option is form the group and build it for the content you want to run.
The second is do not play a fill class , that means a required class that will be needed in every group Ie Tank , CC or pure healer.
If you are not willing to run one of those , then expect to be lfg for periods of time.
Lord Sora said:I truly hate LFG tools. Everyone should have the ability to make friends and group up for content. If you're having an issue making friends to experience content with (and the game/server isn't just dead) then it's probably an issue with you personally.
LFG tools ruin the entire experience.
To be clear, I'm speaking of the tools that automatically group you with others for a specific dungeon, etc. If it's just a tool that shows others that you are LFG then I'm cool with that.
I like yer comment Lord :) One of the best friends I ever made in EQ2 was from a shout out in zone for help with a quest. Usually one needs immediate response for (perhaps a younger) quest, and people in zone are right there! If ye can shout within zone to gain yer companions tis good. To have to wait during a 'come help in xxxx area' does kill the immersion.
Most of us here know the crappy system EQ is using, not saying its not working for some. Sometimes the tools are crossed with /lfg on and people have to sort by filters in the console, such as /who all lfg 40 50 type thing. Where as 1 tool, 1 lfg ---- Willing to travel xxx location LFG should not hinder anyone in those current zones LFG. If a mage is not what they need, nobody is going to invite a 2nd mage.
It is simple math, and yes we can eat our cake too. Its about time MMO's get on board with the mess that was created of the past.
I simply do not wish to pay for a sub that is not on board with avoiding the LFG system all day. If we are bottlenecked by classes again, ill toss it out plain and simple. I am getting to old to sit at a computer 24/7 to just advance in a game.
Not 1 of us is asking for another WOW clone, so going there makes no sense, we clearly need proper tools and an easier time finding groups plan and simple. IF anti social is your way, then by all means solo. Grouping is what the game is suppose to be about so tools are important to help in that effort to matchmake.
Xxar said:If you do not want to be lfg , there are basicly two options.
The first option is form the group and build it for the content you want to run.
The second is do not play a fill class , that means a required class that will be needed in every group Ie Tank , CC or pure healer.
If you are not willing to run one of those , then expect to be lfg for periods of time.
You made a very good point, this is exactly where we where lead to believe. It now is a hindering system that is now a norm. If you do not have a tank, pick elsewhere simple if its a tank and spank mob area. If your missing a CC for the group, and none in the zone LFG... your all LFG until you find one. The same applies with healing. These are 3 of the most important classes we have been lead to believe are essential to form the group. This is also one of the most taxing systems we have been lead to believe is the only way. We know other games tried to add in classes that where robus. So the periods of time your saying to wait is how long? We all are paying to play a game. I guess reroll as a needed class? Something else has to be invented to curve this problem of /LFG on all day.... and i see a huge need for matchmaking system more now then ever.
Crazzie said:Xxar said:If you do not want to be lfg , there are basicly two options.
The first option is form the group and build it for the content you want to run.
The second is do not play a fill class , that means a required class that will be needed in every group Ie Tank , CC or pure healer.
If you are not willing to run one of those , then expect to be lfg for periods of time.
You made a very good point, this is exactly where we where lead to believe. It now is a hindering system that is now a norm. If you do not have a tank, pick elsewhere simple if its a tank and spank mob area. If your missing a CC for the group, and none in the zone LFG... your all LFG until you find one. The same applies with healing. These are 3 of the most important classes we have been lead to believe are essential to form the group. This is also one of the most taxing systems we have been lead to believe is the only way. We know other games tried to add in classes that where robus. So the periods of time your saying to wait is how long? We all are paying to play a game. I guess reroll as a needed class? Something else has to be invented to curve this problem of /LFG on all day.... and i see a huge need for matchmaking system more now then ever.
The main problem is usually that everyone wants to DPS and nothing else ! :P.
In EQ I remember we had no real "control" need, but we usually tried to get an enchanter/bard/shaman/beastlord (at end) for the buffs purpose : haste, slow, or anything else fitting. That doesn't mean we had one each time, and I can't remember how it was at high levels when we would not fill every needs, but from my last play sessions on P99, I grouped with 4 clerics a few time due to having nothing else avaliable : And we kicked the mobs out of the way. Probably not as good once in higher levels (we were in our mid teens).
However, in EQ, the problem happened even for mandatory role : Pop as a lvl 23 SK in mistmoore, pond is taken and has a tank, what do you do now ? You just wait for their tank to leave until you can get an invite, because either you take hours travelling to another common spot, either you just wait as you can't even start a second group due to the 20-25 area already taken. I hope the promised "big dungeons" will allow us to bypass this problem, if a group can solely manage the entirety of a specific level range in a dungeon, that means no other group can move in withouth trying to make the first one do a compromise, which is usually perceived as a nuisance. (Soloers pulling the first mobs at MM pond weren't perceived as "doing their own work" but rather, taking the group's spawn).
I actually liked the "group builder" tool as it was in FFXIV: You would choose the dungeon(s) you want to go to, select your role (or the game could pick that up automatically from your class) then click LFG button. That would put you in a waiting queue, and the system would look for players within your lvl range and with the required roles to fill up a group. You could actually see when a fit was found, and get ready when the group was almost full. Once the group was full, you got the option to teleport to the dungeon.
We most likely don't want the teleport part for Pantheon, but since the game will be based on archetype roles from what we know, something similar may still be possible. I imagine it would be much harder to fit in the places where you want to go to though. Just imagine a large dungeon, one player might want to do "camp x" while another wants "camp y". Still, it would be nice to see the waiting people of the other roles, instead of having to type /who every few minutes.
Sarim said:I actually liked the "group builder" tool as it was in FFXIV: You would choose the dungeon(s) you want to go to, select your role (or the game could pick that up automatically from your class) then click LFG button. That would put you in a waiting queue, and the system would look for players within your lvl range and with the required roles to fill up a group. You could actually see when a fit was found, and get ready when the group was almost full. Once the group was full, you got the option to teleport to the dungeon.
We most likely don't want the teleport part for Pantheon, but since the game will be based on archetype roles from what we know, something similar may still be possible. I imagine it would be much harder to fit in the places where you want to go to though. Just imagine a large dungeon, one player might want to do "camp x" while another wants "camp y". Still, it would be nice to see the waiting people of the other roles, instead of having to type /who every few minutes.
I think your desire for something automated, quick, and simple is completely reasonable and you have noted some important issues with porting over the dungeon finder mechanic straight into Pantheon (travel and non-instanced large dungeons). This line of discussion gets me wondering about two new topics.
I'm really hoping that Pantheon is designed to accomodate non-traditional group compositions. I'm not talking about having 5 warriors and 1 cleric be exp city, but something that allows overlap of just 1 archetype. You'll never see a group of 6 complain about having 2 dps, but having 2 healers or 2 tanks often automatically puts you in the suboptimal category. I would hope that there's some limited flexibility that would allow for 2 tanks, 2 healers, or 2 support classes to be better than having just 1 of those roles. Like maybe two healers can provide 250-300% of the survivability that one healer could (instead of the assumed 100%) or two tanks can work together to decrease each other's damage intake? I would love to see groups say "there's no tanks online, so let's get two healers and let a ranger or monk tank" kind of thing.
The other topic is bringing automation to what is traditionally a player driven search. If you are using the LFG tool to search for a healer level 15-20, then you will have more success the more you refresh your page. If you are only half paying attention, then maybe some other group will snag the new healer on the market before you knew they were around. Maybe an auditory or visual cue could be given any time a new player goes LFG that fits your critereon in the search tool. I was just thinking it would be nice to have something so you don't have to be watching the window like an ebay hound.
The challenge of filling groups is one of the reasons I’m heavily in favor of a logarithmic power curve. It would allow lvl 30-50 to group together in a meaningful way, also while allowing the vast majority of content to be used all the way to max level. Sadly it is likely far too late in the design process for Pantheon to adopt such a revolutionary power curve and frankly it works better for a skill point / tree based game rather than a class/level based game.
Trasak said:The challenge of filling groups is one of the reasons I’m heavily in favor of a logarithmic power curve. It would allow lvl 30-50 to group together in a meaningful way, also while allowing the vast majority of content to be used all the way to max level. Sadly it is likely far too late in the design process for Pantheon to adopt such a revolutionary power curve and frankly it works better for a skill point / tree based game rather than a class/level based game.
In what sense is it revolutionnary ? Many mmo made levelling unrewarding because the curve is close to be straight and flat, and even games where it is meant to be linear, end up beeing logarithmics due to major ability unlocks in the first 50%, making the last part only stat stacking with less and less relative benefit each levels.