MauvaisOeil said:Not to break your idea but : Wouldn't the guy LTL just see all thoses people avaliable or spamming chat and invite them by himself ? Haven't taken zone difference factor into account, however, I'm just oversimplifying things here.
Yes, if you are even in the zone.
However very often there are people who are LFG who don't turn on LFG flags (yes this happens a lot. I have gotten many tells from people wanting to join a group and when I do /who all to see what class/level they are they have no LFG flags up), and often there are people who want to team up with others but have no way to know if the other people are willing to start a group or not... and by sending a tell they basically imply that they are the one willing to form and lead the group.
Having an LTL type flag or identifier gives other players a confirmation that "hey, I can send a tell to this person and they'll invite me rather than the whole leadership thing being put on my own shoulders".
From a certain perspective it might seem silly that someone would rather sit and spam LFG rather than even send a tell to others who are LFG, but for many players the leading a group part is very undesirable. I see this all the time. To implement a simple tool, like an LTL flag, which removes the barrier where sending a tell implies you have to also lead would actually be helpful for many players.
I honestly believe that we underestimate how much of a burden the whole leading a group thing is for a majority of players.
An LTL flag would alleviate the 'dread of leading' and give those players nice, simple tool for reaching out to someone when they want to join a group.
In MMOs today, both past and present, players have no way to know who is willing to assume lead role. Only way to know is by actually getting into a group, see who is leading and then remember that person (or add them to friend list) and reach out to them later. This actually happens quite a bit for myself in both Everquest and Everquest 2. I've formed groups, been leading them, finding replacements for anyone who needs to leave and kept the group going. And players then would reach out to me later on, asking if I wanted to go to this or that zone and make a group.
Being added to someones friend list and being asked in the future if I want to come run a group is perfectly fine, and also works. But for that to work it depends on you actually having met the people and grouped with them already.
The LTL approach is more of a pre-emptive step which enables them to find someone to lead the group so you can make that initial contact which then leads to knowing them, adding them to friends and teaming up at a later date again.
It reminds me of the Wow group finder BEFORE it became smashed with the dungeon finder.
Basically you could simply either create a "group" for a specific location and watch who was LFG for this location, or put yourself LFG for one or multiple locations.
I guess the idea of beeing "LTL" is quite close, if not the same, as beeing a group of one LFM but that's my interpretation. I simply do think the LFG/LFM/LTL system should be clear enough and have no doubt, no redundancy and not too many checkboxes to select.
Something as simple as "selecting a level range, LFG/LFM, and adding some comment if you want to tag for a specific location (but no location preselected, it makes things too automatic and less human)".
MauvaisOeil said:I guess the idea of beeing "LTL" is quite close, if not the same, as beeing a group of one LFM but that's my interpretation.
One of my standard call-outs is/was:
"Great group looking for 5 more! PST"
But that only really works within a zone. Having an actual "I don't mind leading" flag would help a lot more though. Plus it should be pretty simple to implement.
Ghroznak said:MauvaisOeil said:Not to break your idea but : Wouldn't the guy LTL just see all thoses people avaliable or spamming chat and invite them by himself ? Haven't taken zone difference factor into account, however, I'm just oversimplifying things here.
Yes, if you are even in the zone.
However very often there are people who are LFG who don't turn on LFG flags (yes this happens a lot. I have gotten many tells from people wanting to join a group and when I do /who all to see what class/level they are they have no LFG flags up), and often there are people who want to team up with others but have no way to know if the other people are willing to start a group or not... and by sending a tell they basically imply that they are the one willing to form and lead the group.
Having an LTL type flag or identifier gives other players a confirmation that "hey, I can send a tell to this person and they'll invite me rather than the whole leadership thing being put on my own shoulders".
From a certain perspective it might seem silly that someone would rather sit and spam LFG rather than even send a tell to others who are LFG, but for many players the leading a group part is very undesirable. I see this all the time. To implement a simple tool, like an LTL flag, which removes the barrier where sending a tell implies you have to also lead would actually be helpful for many players.
I honestly believe that we underestimate how much of a burden the whole leading a group thing is for a majority of players.
An LTL flag would alleviate the 'dread of leading' and give those players nice, simple tool for reaching out to someone when they want to join a group.
In MMOs today, both past and present, players have no way to know who is willing to assume lead role. Only way to know is by actually getting into a group, see who is leading and then remember that person (or add them to friend list) and reach out to them later. This actually happens quite a bit for myself in both Everquest and Everquest 2. I've formed groups, been leading them, finding replacements for anyone who needs to leave and kept the group going. And players then would reach out to me later on, asking if I wanted to go to this or that zone and make a group.
Being added to someones friend list and being asked in the future if I want to come run a group is perfectly fine, and also works. But for that to work it depends on you actually having met the people and grouped with them already.
The LTL approach is more of a pre-emptive step which enables them to find someone to lead the group so you can make that initial contact which then leads to knowing them, adding them to friends and teaming up at a later date again.
That was well described and same as my thoughts on the way it might work well, It gives people who might be shy or don't want to have to be burdened with the responsibility the knowledge that they can just /tell a /LTL person and they are ready and willing and also your know a LTL person is a proactive player who is already undoubtedly on the way to at least forming a duo or trio when you send that tell... I think we'd see pug groups form quickly around this sort of system. It may not be as important during busy times when there are tons of lfg but when the pickings are thin it might bring people out of their shell a bit. As an Aussie player, the pickings are often thin in our prime time :)
In a game built on rep I think people would become known as great /LTL would get noticed fast once their flag goes up
Hokanu said:In a game built on rep I think people would become known as great /LTL would get noticed fast once their flag goes up
Another way to help groups get formed easier is to also add a notification system.
For example... if someone on your friend list or in your guild goes /LFG it would send you a notification. Like a little beep, a line of text, a little popup box or something to that effect. This way you would quickly and easily notice that a friend is not just online, but actually looking to hang out.
Likewise, if you are /LFG and someone turns on an /LTL flag it could give you a notification as well that someone in the area are preparing to start a group so you could quickly shoot them a tell and get onboard.
Obviously such a notification system would be optional to avoid it being spammy, but it would be a nice way to make players aware of what is happening on the /LFG front.
In the previous MMO's there were no such notifications and only way to know if a friend, guildie or someone in the zone is LFG was to keep spamming /who all LFG or keep checking their status in friend list or guild roster.
Ghroznak said:Hokanu said:In a game built on rep I think people would become known as great /LTL would get noticed fast once their flag goes up
Another way to help groups get formed easier is to also add a notification system.
For example... if someone on your friend list or in your guild goes /LFG it would send you a notification. Like a little beep, a line of text, a little popup box or something to that effect. This way you would quickly and easily notice that a friend is not just online, but actually looking to hang out.
Likewise, if you are /LFG and someone turns on an /LTL flag it could give you a notification as well that someone in the area are preparing to start a group so you could quickly shoot them a tell and get onboard.
Obviously such a notification system would be optional to avoid it being spammy, but it would be a nice way to make players aware of what is happening on the /LFG front.
In the previous MMO's there were no such notifications and only way to know if a friend, guildie or someone in the zone is LFG was to keep spamming /who all LFG or keep checking their status in friend list or guild roster.
I'm completely in for friends, guildies and groupmates connecting/disconnecting notifications. Especially if they include no quickclick for grouping & such (talk to people, then be invited).
Brad already wrote :
"The commitment on our part that if we are making a game where most of the content is being built around grouping that we facilitate finding the group, keeping the group together, and making the group turn into relationships that last, that lead to a community, to shared experiences, etc."
It seems to me that this is an obvious tautology and contains really almost all information already . It is clear that if a game is built around groups and the groups are the core of the gameplay then the developpers will have grouping tools as N°1 priority . It would make no sense to build a social/group centric game and then throw in only as an afterthought an LFG flag and let the things take care of themselves . It makes no sense because if the things do not take care of themselves and people are just unhappy because of too much time spent LFG then the game has failed as a whole .
So I am very confident that this being a N°1 development priority, Pantheon will come with a quite sophisticated and efficient LFG/LFM tool which will help to avoid too much wasted time in LFG/LFM .
As a side remark - when dealing with the group issue, it is a mistake to focus on people LFG and not finding groups . Actually the whole LFG problematic (as most things in RL) has only 1 root cause and it is the lack of leaders . We must face it and I am sure that Pantheon devs face it too : out of 20 - 30 people wanting to group there is only ONE who is willing to create, recruit and lead a group . The responsibility and stress of this leader are often underestimated . There is this 5 member group for Castle Mistmoore but a healer is missing . So while the leader is working his ... off to find a healer, the people *****, the enchanter gets impatient, leaves and gates to Guk . Now at last a healer is coming but an enchanter is missing . Back to square 1 . Leading takes skills, will and dedication but unfortunately not everybody is skilled, willing and dedicated .
That's why I expect that Pantheon grouping tools will focus on potential leaders first . Find them, help them, reward them , acknowledge them . If 15 % of the LFG pool instead of some 5 % are willing to lead then long waiting LFG times will basically never happen .
Deadshade said:Actually the whole LFG problematic (as most things in RL) has only 1 root cause and it is the lack of leaders . We must face it and I am sure that Pantheon devs face it too : out of 20 - 30 people wanting to group there is only ONE who is willing to create, recruit and lead a group . The responsibility and stress of this leader are often underestimated.
This is absolutely true. And when said leader leaves, I've seen groups disband because noone wanted to take the lead, because the stresses are very real. I'm not sure how you would go about mechanically rewarding the people who step up, though.
Deadshade said:Actually the whole LFG problematic (as most things in RL) has only 1 root cause and it is the lack of leaders . We must face it and I am sure that Pantheon devs face it too : out of 20 - 30 people wanting to group there is only ONE who is willing to create, recruit and lead a group . The responsibility and stress of this leader are often underestimated.
My favorite thing in mmos is when I'm already in an exp group and I watch 1 tank 1 healer and 4 dps/cc classes announce lfgs for an hour with none of them taking the initiative to start a group... like it's literally already formed and in the zone. You just need to invite people.
I've found that when i do take the initiative and invite these people most of them don't want the group. They were wanting to be with a specific group.... So flakey sometimes. Like go away and quit spamming lfg if you don't want the group when its offered. Or be specific and say LFG for FRENZY ONLY.
Crazzie said:CanadinaXegony said:There is no holy trinity in Pantheon...the Devs have stated it will be a "quaternity". There will be many more things to do ingame than just bust your behind to get to level cap. If that's all you do then you'll be missing 90% of what the Devs built in this game WORLD.
A few different types of players. Some like to explore, some like to Role Play, and some like to tradeskills. I do trade skills because it requires something in the end, I do not want tradeskills to take over my characters career. So finding different areas to explore, fight in is what i basically am. A raider, a grouper and most of all social.
I did cancel the TLP EQ server, left 2 months on 2 accounts. Not sure i care to really play it, because ill be quiet frank its boring as heck sitting LFG each day for the last 2 weeks. Mage and Enchanter both sat in different areas AFK. Do i suck as a player? nope high dps, or crowd control. It is the simple fact everyone got tanks to 50 asap, logged off and made caster alts or bots. Sadly the majority of LFG are all casters of same levels etc.. Some do not play well, while others get lots of XP for groups. Its not always about the player, and how they socialize, because ill be very honest EQ has no social aspects to it now.
Make sure you join a guild, in Pantheon, talk to people in General chat (if there is a feature like that) that's something I do all the time, I talk to everyone. am friendly with everyone, willing to help where I can be of help. This is a community we are building.
I spent about 3 months on Agnarr...the way Daybreak runs EQ now..well, is hugely disappointing, doesn't seem to be any "play nice" rules, like in the old days of EQ. Anyways, you don't have to be solo. Reach out to people. :) #communitymatters
Cana
Porygon said:Deadshade said:Actually the whole LFG problematic (as most things in RL) has only 1 root cause and it is the lack of leaders . We must face it and I am sure that Pantheon devs face it too : out of 20 - 30 people wanting to group there is only ONE who is willing to create, recruit and lead a group . The responsibility and stress of this leader are often underestimated.
My favorite thing in mmos is when I'm already in an exp group and I watch 1 tank 1 healer and 4 dps/cc classes announce lfgs for an hour with none of them taking the initiative to start a group... like it's literally already formed and in the zone. You just need to invite people.
Yes I've seen that...possible full group, each person/class lfg, I usually pipe up in chat, and say hey guys, you all want to group...TALK to each other. :) Makes sense to me. :D
Cana