Nephretiti said:Riahuf22 said:The definition of pwerleveling has never change it has always been when someone much higher than you offers you his services to boost you through the levels by cheaping the experience and the gameplay of the game by making the mobs you are fighting usually much higher than you but easier to kill than if you soloing.
I totally agree with this definition and have always felt this to be the main form of Power leveling. But there ARE other forms. In EQ2 it was easy enough for someone that was very well twinked to be the Power Leveler. It was usually a SK and it was almost exclusively in a Dungoen Maker dungeon. They would even turn thier XP off so that they could stay at that level and make some hefty coin doing it. It did not require someone to be several levels higher. Sometimes all they had to do was mentor down. There is also some debate regarding whether the PLer is even part of the group - They require you to get the first hit and then they step in and gobsmack the little grey mob that is red to you. Druids were the kings of PLs back in EQ - like previously posted all they had to do was slap a thorn shield on you and let you get hit. The damage mobs received came from the guy being power leveled even though all he had to do was sit there. If we decided that no one could assist you in any way outside of the encounter, then we start running into some unwanted things that would be bad. Do we really want to remove outside healing from passersby? This is a tough nut to crack. I was hoping that THIS is what we would be discussing here.
I listed more than just the no outside healing, plus i said no outside healing from someone 8+ levels higher than you, but like i said before i am against powerleveling, it is a cheap thing that people do to make currency in a game, and ruins the community while they are doing it, becuase eventually almost everyone with enough coin will try to buy them services and not grp up with other players, whcih defeats the main focus of all MMOs.
It seems to me that some posters are still not getting it. I have never had a higher XP gain as a soloist than if I was in even the worst of groups. Even if they DID get full Xp for a mob - it was still lower over time than being in a group. The added caveat of losing so much XP for a death made it even harder. A group will wipe WAY less often than a soloist. When EQ2 launched I held the top of the leader board for a few weeks. That particular board was number of deaths. I also happened to be pretty high up on coin gain and I also recall being pretty high in lvl. I speant the first 3 weeks soloing but also playing in excess of 12 hours a day. But that was at launch. Back then there was shared group XP loss. We were still learning who we would group with and who we would not. Some folks just kept getting themselves killed in a group and this design led to group XP debt when you didn't even die. Some folks made a name for themselves.
Also, when I solo'd I was not soloing yellow conning group mobs. The amount of time and effort it took to do this made it a negative result. Mostly I would hunt lt blue and green conning group encounters or yellow solo encounters.
And still, I never advanced as fast as folks who exclusively grouped - even if they played half the amount if time I did.
Nephretiti said:It seems to me that some posters are still not getting it. I have never had a higher XP gain as a soloist than if I was in even the worst of groups. Even if they DID get full Xp for a mob - it was still lower over time than being in a group. The added caveat of losing so much XP for a death made it even harder. A group will wipe WAY less often than a soloist. When EQ2 launched I held the top of the leader board for a few weeks. That particular board was number of deaths. I also happened to be pretty high up on coin gain and I also recall being pretty high in lvl. I speant the first 3 weeks soloing but also playing in excess of 12 hours a day. But that was at launch. Back then there was shared group XP loss. We were still learning who we would group with and who we would not. Some folks just kept getting themselves killed in a group and this design led to group XP debt when you didn't even die. Some folks made a name for themselves.
Also, when I solo'd I was not soloing yellow conning group mobs. The amount of time and effort it took to do this made it a negative result. Mostly I would hunt lt blue and green conning group encounters or yellow solo encounters.
And still, I never advanced as fast as folks who exclusively grouped - even if they played half the amount if time I did.
hmm, i dont know about faster but on EQ i used to Quad on my druid and was quite successful killing low dark blues and light blues and got lvls fairly fast, not going to say it was faster but since it was a solo effort and lack the means of me having to find a grp it was very efficent, but with the mobs hitting as hard as they do and the different types of mobs, and mechanics there will be in the game it seems that this could be taking this option out of the game, but i could be wrong depending on what your fighting. But back than Druids, Wizards, Enchanters, Necros, Bards had a pretty big advantage in soloing so we will see what happens.
I will be the first to admit that Druids were the overland solo kings. Even Enchanters couldn't compete with them. I wouldn't mind bowing down to their prowes again, TTTT.
The other thing I have said repeatedly throughout this thread is that I will do EVERYTHING that I can to group. I am not a primary soloist by desire. Throughout the thread I have noticed a number of folks insisting that there needs to be a grouping bonus to drive grouping in the first place. I have noticed a few folks that also agree with me that no bonus is needed at all - that grouping IS it's own bonus. I want to be able to say definively that it is one way or the other but truth be told, I can't really do that uintil we do some testing. I can say that I have tested a LOT of these MMOs. I even tested EQ2 and WoW at the same time. The one thing I have noticed regarding this is that every game since EQ2 (with maybe the exception of Vanguard) I suggested that the overall XP gain needed to be reduced to about 1/10th of what we saw in testing. Devs don't really pay attention to things like that. But what I noticed was that in games that did not drasticaly lower the XP gain had games that were usually maxed within the first month. And subscriptions had a drastic drop. I hope Pantheon makes me earn those levels. I want to have that feeling of accomplishment when I hit 50 in 8 or 9 months.
Nephretiti said:I will be the first to admit that Druids were the overland solo kings. Even Enchanters couldn't compete with them. I wouldn't mind bowing down to their prowes again, TTTT.
The other thing I have said repeatedly throughout this thread is that I will do EVERYTHING that I can to group. I am not a primary soloist by desire. Throughout the thread I have noticed a number of folks insisting that there needs to be a grouping bonus to drive grouping in the first place. I have noticed a few folks that also agree with me that no bonus is needed at all - that grouping IS it's own bonus. I want to be able to say definively that it is one way or the other but truth be told, I can't really do that uintil we do some testing. I can say that I have tested a LOT of these MMOs. I even tested EQ2 and WoW at the same time. The one thing I have noticed regarding this is that every game since EQ2 (with maybe the exception of Vanguard) I suggested that the overall XP gain needed to be reduced to about 1/10th of what we saw in testing. Devs don't really pay attention to things like that. But what I noticed was that in games that did not drasticaly lower the XP gain had games that were usually maxed within the first month. And subscriptions had a drastic drop. I hope Pantheon makes me earn those levels. I want to have that feeling of accomplishment when I hit 50 in 8 or 9 months.
Yeah, and I'm not saying that no one shouldn't be able to solo, I'm just hoping for the most part is it towards the lower dark blues/light blues, and on namers and such make it green, like if a high level character tries to fight a namers that is much lower tthan them make it to where it bring in another mechanic to make the fight harder than usually to prevent solo camping mobs from grps that were grp orientated, this is my vote of that subject. but back to soloing aspect i believe all classes can solo, obviously some will be better than other, this is unpreventable, but i can say with you being an enchaner they will have a good advantage in this being what they bring to the table so i wouldn't worry to much, i just don't want to see classes being able to solo evens without basically making the struggle and effectiveness basically not worth it from an exp standpoint of veiw, either from resists, and other mechnaics the game has in store from us, but with low dark blues/light i see this being the bread of our focus on a solo aspect, due to level advantage, them being less likely to resist, more powerful spells/abilties than when you fought them as a grp, and such things like this. becuase i want the core function of the game to exsist which is to be in grps to take down harder mobs and get decent gear from those mobs.
And i agree grping doesn't need a EXP bonis the fact that in grouping you can kill faster/get more drops and travel faster into dungeons to get to named mobs and such that a soloer probably wont be able to get to or kill is more than enough to encourage grping which im totally fine with, since that should be the reason why your getting into a grp to begin with. along with the loads of exp you'll get for killing everything near you anyway.
And to be honest I'm down with the whole long grind to max level, i don't know bout 8-9 month grind but def good with a 3-4 month grind, mainly becuase i don't want to feel like im stuck in the same spot for days on end hoping to get those few levels til i can move toward on harder content, but i can definately agree getting to max level in a month is def way too fast, and btw i mean 3-4 months one the fastest leveling person on the server not an average.
My opinion:
- Most encounters should be tuned such that the optimal way to beat them is to bring (several) friends. However, some "world" encounters in each level range should be soloable, with difficulty. There should always be that lone bandit that someone can try to jump, away from his friends.
- Dungeon encounters should be strictly tuned for groups. No soloing in a dungeon or similar area.
- High level buffs applied to low level players should not allow those low level players to immediately solo encounters in their level range that they should not have been able to solo otherwise. In other words, the effectiveness of buffs should scale by level.
- Experience rewards should scale based on the challenge of the encounter. Assuming that "con" ranges are green/light blue/blue/white/yellow/orange/red then there should be a modifier applied: -30%/-20%/-10%/0%/10%/20%/30%
- There should be an experience bonus granted to group members (since they'll be splitting exp rewards): Probably something like +50% for 2 players with an additional +25% for every player above 2 in the group. This helps keep larger groups desirable and prevents the group split from being too extreme. It also allows encounters to be tuned around larger groups without making players feel like XP is a complete slog-grind. Math:
If an encounter rewards 20000 XP:
Without bonus:
2 players = 10000 XP each
3 players = 6667 XP each
4 players = 5000 XP each
5 players = 4000 XP each
6 players = 3334 XP each
With bonus:
2 players (50% bonus) = 15000 XP each
3 players (75% bonus) = 11667 XP each
4 players (100% bonus) = 10000 XP each
5 players (125% bonus) = 9000 XP each
6 players (150% bonus) = 8333 XP each
Nephele said:My opinion:
- Most encounters should be tuned such that the optimal way to beat them is to bring (several) friends. However, some "world" encounters in each level range should be soloable, with difficulty. There should always be that lone bandit that someone can try to jump, away from his friends.
- Dungeon encounters should be strictly tuned for groups. No soloing in a dungeon or similar area.
- High level buffs applied to low level players should not allow those low level players to immediately solo encounters in their level range that they should not have been able to solo otherwise. In other words, the effectiveness of buffs should scale by level.
- Experience rewards should scale based on the challenge of the encounter. Assuming that "con" ranges are green/light blue/blue/white/yellow/orange/red then there should be a modifier applied: -30%/-20%/-10%/0%/10%/20%/30%
- There should be an experience bonus granted to group members (since they'll be splitting exp rewards): Probably something like +50% for 2 players with an additional +25% for every player above 2 in the group. This helps keep larger groups desirable and prevents the group split from being too extreme. It also allows encounters to be tuned around larger groups without making players feel like XP is a complete slog-grind. Math:
If an encounter rewards 20000 XP:
Without bonus:
2 players = 10000 XP each
3 players = 6667 XP each
4 players = 5000 XP each
5 players = 4000 XP each
6 players = 3334 XP each
With bonus:
2 players (50% bonus) = 15000 XP each
3 players (75% bonus) = 11667 XP each
4 players (100% bonus) = 10000 XP each
5 players (125% bonus) = 9000 XP each
6 players (150% bonus) = 8333 XP each
but the devs have alrdy mentioned that the buffs won't "scale" to our level, like if a lvl 50 get a 25 str buff from someone, and lvl 5 will get the same 25 str buff, but becuase of how the skills and such all that is working out the chance of getting max hit is still way lower than the higher lvl person and everything else that comes with str. so in a sense they do scale to us, but not from a number point of view.
And no Grps should not get a exp bonus is simple doesn't make any sense, and witht he whole exp bonus your talking about it seems liek you want to hit max level within the first week, which destroys everything the game is about.
So i say no to exp bonus it isnt needed, and probably not wanted from many players.
Though I think you should reward players who work together, I'd think not by those numbers, lol
I would definatly give an increased bonus for working together already. So if 3 players work together, the chance of growing into a full group is already significantly higher.
With 2 it can be a box, sure increase, but slightly, as slightly an increase from 4 and up. (can't believe I say this, wanting to do a box myself, lol) But playing together should be a rewarding incentive; not the XP itself; that should be just bonus.
Edit: adding the range to dying mob in which bonus and or XP is awarded
Edit2: removed the XP sugestion because I contradict myself and agree with posters below. anything extra is by dev needs
Nephretiti said:It seems to me that some posters are still not getting it. I have never had a higher XP gain as a soloist than if I was in even the worst of groups. Even if they DID get full Xp for a mob - it was still lower over time than being in a group. The added caveat of losing so much XP for a death made it even harder. A group will wipe WAY less often than a soloist. When EQ2 launched I held the top of the leader board for a few weeks. That particular board was number of deaths. I also happened to be pretty high up on coin gain and I also recall being pretty high in lvl. I speant the first 3 weeks soloing but also playing in excess of 12 hours a day. But that was at launch. Back then there was shared group XP loss. We were still learning who we would group with and who we would not. Some folks just kept getting themselves killed in a group and this design led to group XP debt when you didn't even die. Some folks made a name for themselves.
Also, when I solo'd I was not soloing yellow conning group mobs. The amount of time and effort it took to do this made it a negative result. Mostly I would hunt lt blue and green conning group encounters or yellow solo encounters.
And still, I never advanced as fast as folks who exclusively grouped - even if they played half the amount if time I did.
Oh they are getting it just fine, but this is supposed to be a group/team focused game not a solo game. XP bonuses for groups is just another way to ensure players are pushed towards teaming up. I actually soloed a good amount as a paladin in EQ in various undead zones, but that was nothing compared to what druids could do with kiting the giants or what necros were capable of. Some classes will be stronger at soloing and I have no problem with that. There will likely be a class that can grind pretty good XP soloing. No, it will not be as efficient as a group but then again if you wanted that you could play any number of MMOs out there right now.
I was about to type out the same thing that I realized at least one other person had posted. There should ALWAYS be some kind of solo activity ability to me at any point. Now, I am not saying it should be the best or even a very good way to spend your time, but you should never pretty much be unable to play or meaningfully advance without finding a group. I should be able to travel to or find a certain spot to do SOME kind of advancement by myself if it is all i can find at a given moment. Even EQ always had SOMETHING you could kill alone if you needed to...it might not have been pretty at times, but you could at least try and get something accomplished if you couldn't find/didn't want/didn't feel like/didn't have time for a group.
There should not be any exp bonus in my opinion for soloing or grouping. If experience is supposed to be just that, you should 'learn' the same from fighting an killing a snake, bear, skeleton, etc with 2 other people as you do from killing it alone. The bonus from grouping is the speed you can kill and the level of content you can take on, and you should also not get some super bonus reward because your particular class can solo something well beyond your expected ability all alone. If 6 people kill a giant together, they all learn the same as if one guy killed the giant all alone. If stuff is properly balanced, Mob X should be worth 5k exp and a group of 5 would share 5k exp equally, and a soloer would get the same 5k, but it should take AT LEAST (usually longer) to get that one 5k kill solo than a group of 5 could kill 5x 5k mobs. I do not want any modifiers or bonuses, just the natural well designed incentive to group up because it is FAR more profitable exp-wise than being alone. I have ZERO issue with some classes being able to kite and solo hill giants, and be able to meaningfully advance doing it, even if as a paladin, i could never do it until being well above them. I DO have an issue if soloing hill giants well above you as one or two classes makes you advance faster than you would in a group so that certain classes do not benefit or are disincentivized from grouping.
I've never been into the solo scene so I'm kinda biased but I don't think any bonuses should be given based on group content or duo/trio content.
This game seems built with the community in mind. Not much of a community if all you do is box a group or more by yourself and ignore everyone else. I play games like these to interact with people from all over the world.
A)
this should be something like that:
Red = 0 mobs killed on average, die very fast no chance to escape
Yellow = 0 mob killed, but have fair chance to escape.
White = 1 mob, have to use all availible cooldowns and pot.
Blue = 1 mob, don't have to use cooldowns and pots
Green = 2 mobs easy.
what you have wrote is a regular mainstream MMO circa wow vanilla.
B)
there deffinetly have to be group bonus, both to XP and to silver drops and to loot tables.
solo: -10% XP and silver drops and significant penalty to item chance.
two people: standart drop tables and XP, silver amount.
three people and more to full party: +5% for each person in party. (+20% on party of 6)
raid: (aka double party) no XP at all unless raid boss, regular default silver and item drops.
Riahuf22 said:but the devs have alrdy mentioned that the buffs won't "scale" to our level, like if a lvl 50 get a 25 str buff from someone, and lvl 5 will get the same 25 str buff, but becuase of how the skills and such all that is working out the chance of getting max hit is still way lower than the higher lvl person and everything else that comes with str. so in a sense they do scale to us, but not from a number point of view.
And no Grps should not get a exp bonus is simple doesn't make any sense, and witht he whole exp bonus your talking about it seems liek you want to hit max level within the first week, which destroys everything the game is about.
So i say no to exp bonus it isnt needed, and probably not wanted from many players.
Dude, i think you need to take a step back and consider what youre saying. Youre obviously very passionate about this. If you do not have an incentive to group, you end up with people that will determine how much exp they get vs how fast they kill and just find the smallest number of people possible. If all they need is 1 healer 1 tank and 1 dps and they can effectively kill at the same speed (exp per hour) as a 6 man group, you wont see any 6 man groups. The reason people fill out groups is because it reduces the danger and gives a bonus. I agree, that if a mob is worth 6000 exp, that a solo player should receive the full amount... but a group should receive 6000/(number of players)*(group modifier for # of players).
What you are asking for, is essentially going to completely erase what the goal of Pantheon is (to make a GROUP centric game).
Also, PLing is one of the many things people do to "make money". Its also things people do to help a friend catch up, or to help someone switch mains. Or, it could be used by someone who has no interest in the game from 1-max level and is only interested in raiding/playing at max. Removing the way to PL people is essentially saying "what YOU care about doesnt matter, all that matters is you cant help your friends".
People will always find a way to exploit the game to RMT, you shouldnt remove one whole aspect of MMOs because of that.
Nephretiti said:By the gods, Nephele, that kind of bonus structure scares the hell out of me. With bonuses like that you would create a system where it would surely promote botting and multi-boxing on a vast scale. If for no other reason than to give yourself such a massive XP bonus.
Do you really think so? I was basing it on what I remember from EQ1 - thought I could be remembering wrong on the numbers that were used there and I admit that freely :).
Anyway here's my thought process:
- There needs to be a bonus to killing tougher things and a penalty for killing easier things, in terms of the XP you get. Bottom-feeding should be discouraged.
- There needs to be a bonus to forming groups of all sizes, but particularly larger groups, otherwise players will always just try to go for the most "efficient" group for an area, which may just be a duo/trio rather than a full group.
Of course, the numbers I posted were predicated on the concept of each mob killed having a set value of experience it gives, and that value being split between everyone involved in the kill. There are other ways to do it.
Boxing never really came into it as a consideration, I'll explain why. Disclaimer: I know this is a hugely contentious topic, and there are people that like/support boxing in games. I am NOT one of those people, but that is my opinion - others feel differently and all opinions are valid. I usually avoid this topic but I will address it here since you brought it up:
I am of the opinion that running multiple characters (boxing) is a symptom of poor systems design in a game in several ways. First, I feel that the game should require enough mechanical skill from players on any given class that the player is required to focus during combat or suffer a severe lack of efficiency. If a class's gameplay can be described as "stand in the right spot and press 1, 2, 3, and 4 when required" (which makes it easy to box), then that is a flaw in the game. Second, I feel that game clients should not easily allow automation to the extent that you can control an additional 2, 3, 4, etc characters besides the one you're focused on at the time. I support quality of life features such as /follow and configurable keyboard shortcuts, but I'm not a fan of *anything* that allows you to automate complex actions on characters - even in the name of making it accessible for players with disabilities. This applies both for combat and noncombat (ie, crafting) interactions. Again, this is my opinion and everyone has the right to disagree. I don't want to turn this thread into a referendum on boxing, so I hope that no one takes this personally. It's just how I feel about the subject.
Anyway, numbers can be tuned up and down - so please don't take my post as saying that there have to be HUGE bonuses. What I think is important though is that in the end no one ever feels like they're earning experience more slowly for being in a group. I hope that makes sense and helps alleviate your concern, a little?
Nephele said:Nephretiti said:By the gods, Nephele, that kind of bonus structure scares the hell out of me. With bonuses like that you would create a system where it would surely promote botting and multi-boxing on a vast scale. If for no other reason than to give yourself such a massive XP bonus.
Do you really think so? I was basing it on what I remember from EQ1 - thought I could be remembering wrong on the numbers that were used there and I admit that freely :).
Anyway here's my thought process:
- There needs to be a bonus to killing tougher things and a penalty for killing easier things, in terms of the XP you get. Bottom-feeding should be discouraged.
- There needs to be a bonus to forming groups of all sizes, but particularly larger groups, otherwise players will always just try to go for the most "efficient" group for an area, which may just be a duo/trio rather than a full group.
Of course, the numbers I posted were predicated on the concept of each mob killed having a set value of experience it gives, and that value being split between everyone involved in the kill. There are other ways to do it.
No, you weren't far off for later EQ (PoP & beyond). Here is Velious dev notes:
Grouping Bonus
We've always been the first to say that EverQuest is designed to promote grouping. Those who prefer to solo should be able to do so with some restrictions, but probably will not be able to go everywhere and do everything like a well-oiled, or like multiple well-oiled groups. This is a main foundation of EverQuest, and is what drove our decision to implement a class-based system where classes have strengths and weaknesses that complement each other.
Aside from making it so that the best gear requires groups, either to get quest items or get the best gear directly, our goal was to make it so that groups could advance faster than a solo player. One way we tried to reach this goal was by putting experience bonuses in dungeons, so our changes mentioned above should certainly help in that area. Another way we tried to reach that goal was by giving a per-kill experience bonus based on the size of the group.
One thing that has been confirmed by many of our high level players, both inside and outside the company, is that the "best" groups can already advance faster in a grouping situation than by any one member camping a single spawn. However, it has been pointed out that not everyone has the opportunity to get in the "best group". This led to many players choosing to "camp the single spawn" because they then do not have to worry about someone else getting their character killed. This in turn exacerbated the problem, as many players chose to "camp the single spawn" from creation to old age, and are just beginning to experience grouping and learn group-skills at about the time that dungeons become the most unforgiving. The inevitable result is that the level 50 "dungeon newbies" contribute to the fact that the group isn't the "best group".
Our goal is to get people grouping earlier, and provide them enough of a bonus where they do not feel that they are losing ground during the learning process. We feel we can do this by doubling the grouping experience bonus and by scaling it up based on the size of the group. Currently, the bonus is an additional 2% experience per group member, not counting the first one, leading to a maximum bonus of 10%. Following the next patch, the bonus will be as follows:
2 person group - 2% total bonus.
3 person group - 6% total bonus.
4 person group - 10% total bonus.
5 person group - 14% total bonus.
6 person group - 20% total bonus.
This bonus is applied to the total experience reward for killing a creature prior to distributing it to the group.
And here is the change in PoP (2003) where they realized it still wasn't enough of a bonus and soloing was still dominating:
** Experience System Change - Grouping ** We've made some improvements to the way experience is rewarded in all of EverQuest. At its core, the idea is to positively reinforce grouping. There should never be any penalty to adding "that sixth person over there," whatever class they may be, into your group. That is exactly the type of behavior that should be rewarded. In a massively multi-player game, any mechanic that penalizes those who group is one that we need to take a serious look at. While there are definite benefits to forming "well balanced" groups in terms of damage, tanking, healing, and support, there shouldn't be an active penalty to those who cannot find groups of "optimal" balance. As it stands in EverQuest, groups gain a 2% to 20% experience bonus, which we refer to as the "group bonus", for having two to six members. In practice, however, this has never been much of a bonus, even in the case of a full group, given that the experience was already being divided six ways. In the past, we had also attempted to reward people for adventuring in the more challenging Planes of Power zones by making those zones give a better rate of experience. As of this update, groups now gain 20% to 80% "group bonus" experience for having two to five members. Full, six-person, groups now see an additional bonus. Their experience is only divided five ways, yet they still gain the 80% "group bonus." For those who think in terms of pie charts, it amounts to a larger piece of a larger pie. Accordingly, the bonus inherent to Planes of Power zones will be decreased slightly. However, as long as person is grouped with at least one other, they will see an improvement in experience gain over the old system. The one down side to the new system is that there will be a slight decrease in experience for those who do not group, and only for those who do so in Planes of Power zones. We realize that we are, essentially, "manufacturing" a new type of experience after a kill. As players, we also understand it is the people who spend time in full groups who have to deal with the most interruptions and setup time caused by organizing the extra people. It simply makes sense to reward that extra time, especially if it means bringing more people together. After all, that's the whole point.
Porygon said:Riahuf22 said:but the devs have alrdy mentioned that the buffs won't "scale" to our level, like if a lvl 50 get a 25 str buff from someone, and lvl 5 will get the same 25 str buff, but becuase of how the skills and such all that is working out the chance of getting max hit is still way lower than the higher lvl person and everything else that comes with str. so in a sense they do scale to us, but not from a number point of view.
And no Grps should not get a exp bonus is simple doesn't make any sense, and witht he whole exp bonus your talking about it seems liek you want to hit max level within the first week, which destroys everything the game is about.
So i say no to exp bonus it isnt needed, and probably not wanted from many players.
Dude, i think you need to take a step back and consider what youre saying. Youre obviously very passionate about this. If you do not have an incentive to group, you end up with people that will determine how much exp they get vs how fast they kill and just find the smallest number of people possible. If all they need is 1 healer 1 tank and 1 dps and they can effectively kill at the same speed (exp per hour) as a 6 man group, you wont see any 6 man groups. The reason people fill out groups is because it reduces the danger and gives a bonus. I agree, that if a mob is worth 6000 exp, that a solo player should receive the full amount... but a group should receive 6000/(number of players)*(group modifier for # of players).
What you are asking for, is essentially going to completely erase what the goal of Pantheon is (to make a GROUP centric game).
Also, PLing is one of the many things people do to "make money". Its also things people do to help a friend catch up, or to help someone switch mains. Or, it could be used by someone who has no interest in the game from 1-max level and is only interested in raiding/playing at max. Removing the way to PL people is essentially saying "what YOU care about doesnt matter, all that matters is you cant help your friends".
People will always find a way to exploit the game to RMT, you shouldnt remove one whole aspect of MMOs because of that.
Youmight be right, but in the stream with a full grp they weren't killing all that fast and was still wiping quite often as we saw as well, so i don't see getting full groups a problem, plus its safety in numbers, the more people in your grp the afer your suppose to feel, especially if your deep down into the dngeon, i wouldnt want to have 3 people down there, now in a non dungeon situation you might be right, but that is there choice but i can see in dungeon that a full group would almost be a must. this is of course just my opinion.
And as for the plvling you can give him buffs and heal out of combat and such or make a charter and lvl with him, but to simply plvl him and make him not understand the game from a good exp and be a lazy player and not learn his role, is more harmful than it does good.
Outside of the first few levels, I believe all content should be designed for groups, which would be the required play style for the best loot, experience, etc., but if players find creative ways to solo, as the OP stated through use of CC, kiting, or other forms of emergent gameplay then let them solo. If the player is gifted enough that he/she is able to level quickly (skill-based) then by all means allow it, or has the patience to grind pumas 10 levels lower for horrendous exp so be it - but there should not be content similar to most (all?) MMORPGs today that promote/encourage soloing and reward similar, if not often greater rewards.
Soloing should be an extremely risky, challenging, test of ability/skills, world/mob/zone knowledge, and game experience not an easy-mode alternative for casual play.
-OR- it should be an extremely montonous un-rewarding grind that encourages players to want to group.
If content is difficult enough, as Liav stated, the reward would be intrinsic because people would be required to group for the best loot, exp, etc.
Riahuf22 said:Porygon said:Riahuf22 said:SNIP
Dude, i think you need to take a step back and consider what youre saying. Youre obviously very passionate about this. If you do not have an incentive to group, you end up with people that will determine how much exp they get vs how fast they kill and just find the smallest number of people possible. If all they need is 1 healer 1 tank and 1 dps and they can effectively kill at the same speed (exp per hour) as a 6 man group, you wont see any 6 man groups. The reason people fill out groups is because it reduces the danger and gives a bonus. I agree, that if a mob is worth 6000 exp, that a solo player should receive the full amount... but a group should receive 6000/(number of players)*(group modifier for # of players).
What you are asking for, is essentially going to completely erase what the goal of Pantheon is (to make a GROUP centric game).
Also, PLing is one of the many things people do to "make money". Its also things people do to help a friend catch up, or to help someone switch mains. Or, it could be used by someone who has no interest in the game from 1-max level and is only interested in raiding/playing at max. Removing the way to PL people is essentially saying "what YOU care about doesnt matter, all that matters is you cant help your friends".
People will always find a way to exploit the game to RMT, you shouldnt remove one whole aspect of MMOs because of that.
Youmight be right, but in the stream with a full grp they weren't killing all that fast and was still wiping quite often as we saw as well, so i don't see getting full groups a problem, plus its safety in numbers, the more people in your grp the afer your suppose to feel, especially if your deep down into the dngeon, i wouldnt want to have 3 people down there, now in a non dungeon situation you might be right, but that is there choice but i can see in dungeon that a full group would almost be a must. this is of course just my opinion.
And as for the plvling you can give him buffs and heal out of combat and such or make a charter and lvl with him, but to simply plvl him and make him not understand the game from a good exp and be a lazy player and not learn his role, is more harmful than it does good.
The characters used in the streams didn't have the blood/sweat/tears put into their progression like real ones do. There is still a ton of work to do in regards to itemization, abilities/spells and their rotations, etc ... and that's not even touching on actual NPC stat balance. In one of the streams it may have seemed like it would be impossible to kill 2 ghurkas at the same time ... okay ... in what context? It's not like the group was buffed to the point where they wanted to show off super characters. It seemed like they wanted to show hard fought battles with plenty of death, so I would assume those characters were pretty weak, generally speaking. If I had to take a guess, I would venture to say that there will be level appropriate duos or trios that are capable of clearing that same area on live even though it seemed like a full group was struggling.
This thread was quite an interesting read. From what I've read, it is more about powerleveling than soloing? I'll give my opinion on both anyway.
I am excited for this game because it is focused on the adventure of leveling with a group. I would totally go back to EQOA (if it were still around D:) just to sit in a camp at a static spawn and grind up in levels with a group making my horrible jokes and getting to know people while we wait for our mana to regen. Pantheon seems to be expanding on the idea of working in a group and adding exploration and story telling to the experience. The idea of soloing in a game focused on this is a confusing one in my opinion. I am with the group that say that soloing is a necessary part of the game because, even though the devs clearly want what we want, there are going to be times when grouping isn't an immediate option and there has to be a method of meaningful advancement when grouping isn't one. I am also a huge fan of soloing for the challenge. If it isn't a challenge and is as/almost as good as, or better than grouping, then it doesn't feel like I'm even playing an mmo, I'd rather be playing a game that was made to be played alone.
I am neither for nor against powerleveling. On one hand, as someone else mentioned, powerleveling is doing no favors other than superficially making leveling more efficient. On the other, the artificial limitations placed in the game to prevent such things takes away from meaningful encounters that could happen otherwise.
Someone mentioned that buffs and heals from higher levels should not be allowed to be placed on low levels. Some of my favorite memories, ones that anchor EQOA close to my heart, are from similar situations where higher levels aided me. My main, near the end of EQOA's lifespan, was a Shadow Knight. Somewhere around level 40, I was running around solo, exploring and looking for places to kill some mobs (and some time) while I waited for my friend to get online. A level 60 Master Classed Shaman (Mystic) placed his Master Class buff on me as he ran by. I waved at him in thanks, not knowing the enormous boon he just shared with me. The buff was named Spirit Shield (every time the buffed player took a physical hit, spirit shield would heal the buffed player) and changed my outlook on the game. From that point on, I knew I wanted a Mystic of my own so I could share such a cool spell with other low levels. That memory and many others, including the Drive By Healer, is my anecdotal evidence for the avoidance of such artificial limitations.
XP chains were so much better than just a scaling freebie. Brought the idea up months ago and it was amazing to see how many people were vehemently against them. If only they had been used in EQ, eh? XP chains reward teamwork, skill, coordination, having a full group (the mechanic literally discouraged boxing) ... but people were calling it a form of hand holding, or an arbitrary system that takes your attention away from the world, or a waste of time, easy mode, blah blah blah. It's too bad we won't see them in Pantheon ... they would solve a lot of the issues people bring up on here.
oneADseven said:The characters used in the streams didn't have the blood/sweat/tears put into their progression like real ones do. There is still a ton of work to do in regards to itemization, abilities/spells and their rotations, etc ... and that's not even touching on actual NPC stat balance. In one of the streams it may have seemed like it would be impossible to kill 2 ghurkas at the same time ... okay ... in what context? It's not like the group was buffed to the point where they wanted to show off super characters. It seemed like they wanted to show hard fought battles with plenty of death, so I would assume those characters were pretty weak, generally speaking. If I had to take a guess, I would venture to say that there will be level appropriate duos or trios that are capable of clearing that same area on live even though it seemed like a full group was struggling.
https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=43m59s
I would be amazed if duos or trios of similar level were doing the same content (and a bit let down).
oneADseven said:XP chains were so much better than just a scaling freebie. Brought the idea up months ago and it was amazing to see how many people were vehemently against them. If only they had been used in EQ, eh? XP chains reward teamwork, skill, coordination, having a full group (the mechanic literally discouraged boxing) ... but people were calling it a form of hand holding, or an arbitrary system that takes your attention away from the world, or a waste of time, easy mode, blah blah blah. It's too bad we won't see them in Pantheon ... they would solve a lot of the issues people bring up on here.
I remeber xp chains, it was extremely hard to get a solid chain going after the 5th kill. You not only needed a well balanced party, you also need atentive players who were also well geared for their level and had good buffs. With all that you needed very good coordination along with a camp that could actually support killing mobs at such a fast pace...I miss those days
Iksar said:oneADseven said:The characters used in the streams didn't have the blood/sweat/tears put into their progression like real ones do. There is still a ton of work to do in regards to itemization, abilities/spells and their rotations, etc ... and that's not even touching on actual NPC stat balance. In one of the streams it may have seemed like it would be impossible to kill 2 ghurkas at the same time ... okay ... in what context? It's not like the group was buffed to the point where they wanted to show off super characters. It seemed like they wanted to show hard fought battles with plenty of death, so I would assume those characters were pretty weak, generally speaking. If I had to take a guess, I would venture to say that there will be level appropriate duos or trios that are capable of clearing that same area on live even though it seemed like a full group was struggling.
https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=43m59s
I would be amazed if duos or trios of similar level were doing the same content (and a bit let down).
Some players can do amazing things. It's one of the greatest thrills of playing an MMO ...