I love the challenge of trying to solo content meant fro groups. It is very time consuming and difficult but I usually find that I can do it depending on a few things. I do not think I should be able to defeat red conning group content. IMHO, red conning mobs should be resisting my spells and smacking me around the battlefield. Yellow conning mobs should probably also be difficult. Meaning I could do it - but there is a better than 50% chance that i will fail badly. I might have to CC the whole group, barely manage a single kill, then run away as fast as possible. Con coloring and results should be on par down the line. Basicly, something like
Red = 0 mobs killed on average
Yellow = 1 mob before death/running
White = 2 mobs
Blue = 3 mobs, maybe 4
Green = 5 mobs
Grey = 5+, but still having a chance to fail due to unlucky resists etc.
Now some folks would look at this and say no way. BUT, I am a pretty confident CC class and have played this way for a while (EQ, EQ2, WoW, Vanguard, SWtOR, ESO, etc.). Always managed to do it. Folks would say it isn't fair for non-CCing classes etc. But this isn't about the "fairness" prinicpal. The question here is what sort of risk/reward should there be for soloing group content? If a full group takers on a single Yellow conning group mob it might take about 1 minute and 30 seconds to kill. Each member of the group gets a fair share of XP and since there is a group it goes much faster. The overall of XP/minute is a decent amount. Some games give a bonus for grouping (though personaly I disagree with this. The fact that you are killing/gaining XP at a much faster rate IS the bonus). I am wondering if you manage to solo a group lvl mob should you get ALL of the XP the group would split? here's a simple for instance:
Bob the Banker Orc is a lvl 35 Group designed mob. A lvl 35 group moves in and slays poor bob and does so in about 1 min. Bob was worth 6000 XP. Each group member gets 1000 XP and divies up the loot. This gives an average of 1000 Xp per minute.
Now say Neph the Enchanter finds Bob. Neph attacks and sure enough, manages to kill Bob in about 4 minutes and 30 seconds. How much XP should Neph get? The full 6000XP? Still only 1000? No matter which Neph is still earning less XP per minutye that the group mates. Should Neph get bonus XP for actually beating bob while solo? Should there be bonus XP for groups, who are already enjoying the huge bonus of simply maintaining a much higher kills/per minute ratio? Should Soloers get XP bonus because they are completing content without help - and that the odds of failing are MUCH higher while solo? Or should there just be something that blocks Neph from killing a group mob while solo? (I hope not!). Let's discuss...
We can't really speak in concrete terms about this yet. But, in my view, the general rule should be that a solo player, no matter how good, should be less effective at gaining exp and loot than a group of good players, controlling for other variables such as being in a level-appropriate area. If this rule is not imbedded in the game design, either through the method for calculating experience rates, individual player power, or some other mechanism, then soloing will become a major norm in PRF, which will defeat the goal of creating a group-oriented game. In the long run, the incentives will always win out. If it pays to solo, soloing will become the norm.
There are other dimensions to this question, too. For example, if you allow the soloing player in your example to earn 6,000 xp (i.e., the full amount that a group would get), power leveling becomes much more effective. If I want to be efficient, I would be dumb to group with 5 people instead of just bringing a pocket healer and power leveling myself. Or I could bring a pocket healer and just never invite a healer to my low-level group. I'm not saying *I* would actually do these things, but if I were trying to maximize the efficiency of my leveling, I would be pushed toward soloing or excluding others. (Admittedly, maybe there are other mechanics of the game that would address the kind of power leveling I described here; for example, maybe the game takes account of not only damage done, but also of damage mitigated and healing done in taking down an NPC. If the damage is all mitigated by an out-of-group tank, or the healing is all done by an out-of-group healer, the experience received by the player/group credited with the kill could be reduced.)
I tend to think the best approach is (i) give the full "base" amount of xp for a solo kill, (ii) add a bonus for grouping that increases as you add more members to the group, and (iii) implement an anti-PL mechanic that tracks (a) damage done to mob by each player, (b) damage mitigated from mob by each player, and (c) healing done to players that damaged mob or mitigated damage from mob, so that out-of-group assistance does not make power-leveling and OOG assistance the primary means of leveling.
But taking a step back, again, whatever the implementation or rules adopted, soloing (even for the most skilled soloer) should be unquestionably and substantially less efficient for leveling and farming items/gold than joining a good group. Otherwise the incentives will push people toward soloing instead of grouping. This is just unavoidable. Incentives drive norms.
I don't think groups should get ANY bonus. The bomus they get is the fact that they are in a group already and that due to your groups abilities you are able to gain much greater XP/min than not. THAT is the bonus.
If you are soloing you already suffer from a "penalty" - the penalty is that your EXP/min is WAY lower than groups. The chances of loot is WAY lower due to the fact that you are simply not getting a reward nearly as often as a group. People seem to focus on loot/kill and then assume that there is no way a soloer should have access to the good stuff. Ever. People who solo do NOT level faster than those who group. They do NOT have better loot.
Your "best approach" totally screws over Enchanters. We don't do the most damage. We don't heal. We don't "mitigate" damage etc. Enchanters enhance the group members so THEY do mare damage, they increase power reserves for the other members, they stop mobs from doing damage but it isn't the same as migiation, lots of other issues.
As for your last statement, I totally agree. But I can also state that it already is. Anyone that CHOOSES to solo instead of grouping is accepting that their overall efficiency is gonna drop alot. Their chances at great rewards drops way down. The ONLY positive to soling that I have ever found was questing. I solo quite a bit but that is usually due to me questing or due to failing to find a group.
No one ever chooses to solo to maximize their leveling. Sure, getting 6000 Xp foir a single mob instead of splitting it with groupmates SOUNDS like a broken mechanic, but what you do not take in to account is the amount of time it takes to get that 6000 XP. A group will gain a LOT more XP over a specific amount of time than a solo'er will. it won't even be close. This is why I don't think there should be a group bonus of any kind - it is already a part of the grouping mechanic. I am still not sure that we should give bonus XP to solo'ers - I jsut feel that somewhere out there someone would find a way to take advantage of that. But I just don't think groups need an additional bonus on top of what grouping brings to the individual. I think if we DID give a bonus to solo'ers, it would negate the advantage that groupers get. I don't think solo'ers should get a bonus. But that is my opinion. i am interested in everyoine else's opinion.
As for a design to prevent Power leveling, I think we would have to first identify what we each consider to be power leveling. Are you just referring to gaining unearned XP for a single player? Are you talking about unfair advantages for a single player through twinking? (does that count? if not why not?) You would need to come up with a definitive before making an adjustment of any kind. Is the target of the PL going to be a scout that just stands there and does nothing? What iof the target of the PL is an Enchanter and is constantly adding power to the PL'er? What if the target of the PL is a healer that is constantly throwing healing spells - even if they really aren't needed? DPS is important. But it is unfair to use that as a basis for anything when the player is a support class/healer.
Nephretiti said:I don't think groups should get ANY bonus. The bomus they get is the fact that they are in a group already and that due to your groups abilities you are able to gain much greater XP/min than not. THAT is the bonus.
If you are soloing you already suffer from a "penalty" - the penalty is that your EXP/min is WAY lower than groups. The chances of loot is WAY lower due to the fact that you are simply not getting a reward nearly as often as a group. People seem to focus on loot/kill and then assume that there is no way a soloer should have access to the good stuff. Ever. People who solo do NOT level faster than those who group. They do NOT have better loot.
Your "best approach" totally screws over Enchanters. We don't do the most damage. We don't heal. We don't "mitigate" damage etc. Enchanters enhance the group members so THEY do mare damage, they increase power reserves for the other members, they stop mobs from doing damage but it isn't the same as migiation, lots of other issues.
As for your last statement, I totally agree. But I can also state that it already is. Anyone that CHOOSES to solo instead of grouping is accepting that their overall efficiency is gonna drop alot. Their chances at great rewards drops way down. The ONLY positive to soling that I have ever found was questing. I solo quite a bit but that is usually due to me questing or due to failing to find a group.
No one ever chooses to solo to maximize their leveling. Sure, getting 6000 Xp foir a single mob instead of splitting it with groupmates SOUNDS like a broken mechanic, but what you do not take in to account is the amount of time it takes to get that 6000 XP. A group will gain a LOT more XP over a specific amount of time than a solo'er will. it won't even be close. This is why I don't think there should be a group bonus of any kind - it is already a part of the grouping mechanic. I am still not sure that we should give bonus XP to solo'ers - I jsut feel that somewhere out there someone would find a way to take advantage of that. But I just don't think groups need an additional bonus on top of what grouping brings to the individual. I think if we DID give a bonus to solo'ers, it would negate the advantage that groupers get. I don't think solo'ers should get a bonus. But that is my opinion. i am interested in everyoine else's opinion.
As for a design to prevent Power leveling, I think we would have to first identify what we each consider to be power leveling. Are you just referring to gaining unearned XP for a single player? Are you talking about unfair advantages for a single player through twinking? (does that count? if not why not?) You would need to come up with a definitive before making an adjustment of any kind. Is the target of the PL going to be a scout that just stands there and does nothing? What iof the target of the PL is an Enchanter and is constantly adding power to the PL'er? What if the target of the PL is a healer that is constantly throwing healing spells - even if they really aren't needed? DPS is important. But it is unfair to use that as a basis for anything when the player is a support class/healer.
You cn not say they don't do anything becuase no one knows what they are getting other than the obvious CC, that we've seen from the streams, but what i can say is from how i've seen from those streams is that basically no one is soloing any of those mobs at their level, and im sure they we're ranging from white to yellow, i tihnk, so to fair your not losing an advantage becuase no one has them.
And like its been said it's a group orientated game so if your wanting to solo your going to have to probably fight them, low dark blues to light blues with any success which i believe is approiate, becuase you are soloing and honestly i believe if you dont have a group you shouldn't be able to kill those white/yellows becuase than everyone would and wouldn't find a good reason to grp, from an exp stand point of view.
As for powerleveling i say we prevent it completely by if a low level character is in combat with a mob, a higher level character, i'd say about 8 levels or so can not cast spells on them, or that if we do allow it i say the mob resets, or becomes an alarmist, take your pick, but i am also completely against Plvling becuase it takes the group centric aspect out fo the game, and tweaking they alrdy said that the amount of damage you will do to your mob is more based on your skill with that weapon than the actual damage it says it does, until you reach the appriate level anyway, and same with gear, it might give you hp and ac and all that jazz but if your defense and such is low than surviving hits will still be a harsh learning curve.
Neph, You seem to have misunderstood part of my post. I was not suggesting that an Enchanter not receive exp just because they do not do damage. If the Enchanter is in the group that deals the most damage, the Enchanter would, of course, get his or her fair split of the experience among the group members. I have no problem with twinking because the power gains from twinking are, at least in every MMO I've played, nowhere near as trivializing and overpowered as having out-of-group characters power leveling the group. Having a cool sword and some rare gear equipped on a level 20 character will confer benefits in a way that can be fun, but generally will not be so overpowering as to trivialize content completely or cause the twinked character to choose not to group with others. Having a level 50 druid sitting out of group throwing thorns and healing, or having a level 50 tank sitting out of group tanking, can completely trivialize content, enable extremely accelerated leveling (5x, 10x, or higher multiples of leveling speed), and detract from the group-centric values of the game. To prevent that kind of powerleveling, while also enabling some meaningful solo progression, the game would need to implement a more sophisticated measure of damage done, damage mitigated, and damage healed, as part of determining how much experience a player or group receives. Otherwise, once again, the incentives will drive norms, and we'll immediately see the kind of gameplay we see on the current EQ TLP servers, with rampant power leveling from level 1 - 40 using damage shields, following by a combination of out-of-group assistance from boxed characters and AoE groups (again often using boxed characters).
Gnog said:Neph, You seem to have misunderstood part of my post. I was not suggesting that an Enchanter not receive exp just because they do not do damage. If the Enchanter is in the group that deals the most damage, the Enchanter would, of course, get his or her fair split of the experience among the group members. I have no problem with twinking because the power gains from twinking are, at least in every MMO I've played, nowhere near as trivializing and overpowered as having out-of-group characters power leveling the group. Having a cool sword and some rare gear equipped on a level 20 character will confer benefits in a way that can be fun, but generally will not be so overpowering as to trivialize content completely or cause the twinked character to choose not to group with others. Having a level 50 druid sitting out of group throwing thorns and healing, or having a level 50 tank sitting out of group tanking, can completely trivialize content, enable extremely accelerated leveling (5x, 10x, or higher multiples of leveling speed), and detract from the group-centric values of the game. To prevent that kind of powerleveling, while also enabling some meaningful solo progression, the game would need to implement a more sophisticated measure of damage done, damage mitigated, and damage healed, as part of determining how much experience a player or group receives. Otherwise, once again, the incentives will drive norms, and we'll immediately see the kind of gameplay we see on the current EQ TLP servers, with rampant power leveling from level 1 - 40 using damage shields, following by a combination of out-of-group assistance from boxed characters and AoE groups (again often using boxed characters).
I say to prevent high level tanks from tanking low level mobs for lower level characters is they they fight the lower level charcters due to seeing they are quite weaker and easier to kill basically an A.I. kind of thing, i know it seems I'm being harsh on the whole Plvling thing, but it such a terrible thing really, it destroys the chances of getting in groups if everyone is looking for the chance for a plvling, so to take it away completely is the best answer imo.
I hope that VR does not put very much effort into soloing, especially past lvl 10. I will experiment with the Chanter class and I will be very happy if the Chanter class gets hammered when they try and solo, say after lvl 10. This is a social/group game so let VR balance the game that way instead of trying to please people that want to solo and potentially cause balance issues and chew up resources.
I think it is going to be a scary world in Terminus if you plan to solo... Seeing some of the aggro mechanics already, i'd say you have to be able to split or control The mobs effectively or risk dying a lot (Unless you are a monk and use FDth). There may be some open world spots where you can pick off mobs to solo.
I don't know, still a lot of testing and playing with the game before anything becomes the norm.
I see a few responses to the Powerleveling aspect, but I still think the issue here is that we still have not defined what a PL actually is. What do YOU thinl power leveling is? Is twinking a form of power leveling? Someone posted that it isn't and that it doesn't really do anything or much for the toon being twinked. Of course it does. That's why it gets done. If it didn't trivialize (or at lower teh difficulty greatly) then no one would spend the time/effort to do it. But twinking occurs all the time.
Gnog, I understand what you are saying, really you even said that same thing again. My point there is that you only list three things that Enchanters don't really do to any great extent. Enchanters don't do massive DPS. They mediocre at best. They don't mitigate damage. They don't heal damage. So by your own discription, since they are not doing those particular things on par with the rest of the group mates, then they deserve less EXP. There is no measure for how much they enhance almost every aspect of the groups abilities. Historically speaking they buff melee attacks - but it isn't tracked by anything. Historically speaking they power the whole group - giving hte group more abilites/spells to attack the target with. But again,l that isn't tracked and doesn't account for anything. They can throw dispels ( but it deosn't count towards anything, (except lowering the DPS of the enchanter for taking the time to do so), they can lower the DPS of the target throw several means - again not tracked as potential loss or mitigation of damage etc. These very reasons are why DPS meters are useless for Enchanters and enchater type classes. I am not saying your idea doesn't work - I am saying that you need to track a lot more than the three things you listed, IFF you expect to be fair to some of the other classes.
I think we need to state the ways Power Levling and twinking occurs and the hope we can discuss ways to counter them.
Skelos, sorry to inform ya mate but VR already said there was going to be soloing. I think they even gave some rough estimates of how much there would be (10, 80, 10 Riad, group solo Am I right? ANyone?). Your vitriol towards enchanters is noted, however I think you should be advised that Enchanters are the kings of solo. We can do things no other class could ever hope to do. As for hoping we die if we even try? If we are talking solo content then no. Enchanters will dominate it. If we are talking about soloing group content? Then yeah - Enchanters will probably have a few issues. But they will still probably do better than most other classes. It is the nature of the spells. It will still be difficult and you might notice that Enchanters top the leader board for deaths, but some players are really just THAT good - and I hope to be one of them. All that being said, I will spend every moment that I can in a group. There is no comparison when you compare soling to grouping.
While I do agree that this is a social group oriented game, I also believe that there should always be some degree of solo functionality. One of the more rewarding forms of progression, for me, has been upgrading a character that isn't usually proficient at soloing and making them viable at it. What I don't want to see is pet classes that can put their pet on defensive and go AFK in certain locations while their pet slowly grinds XP for them. If an enchanter wants to explore a high risk dungeon, though, I am good with it. When an enchanter class is played very well it totally makes sense that they should be able to navigate some areas that other classes might not be able to. Their ability to charm pets and then use them as a tank has always given them a little extra clearing power when it comes to fighting off respawns, but you still have to play with finesse in order to get anywhere decent. If they get overwhelmed, they should have to play with precision to have a chance at coming out alive. For example, get their charmed pet to die while mezzing an add, then stun the current mob they are fighting while charming the mezzed mob. Get some more CC off on the main target such as snares, roots or daze and allow their new pet to build up aggro. Enchanters are usually extremely squishy and if they don't play their cards right, they are only a few whacks away from being flat-lined.
I think you're more likely to cause balance issues if you go out of your way to prevent solo viability for each class. Some will be naturally more inclined to solo than others, and that's perfectly okay. As long as players can't completely circumvent content (No FD flopping, please) or be more viable for name-farming or dungeon navigation than a full group, and that there is a much higher degree of risk while adventuring alone, I am onboard with players having an opportunity to solo. Just because a player is solo doesen't mean you can't interact with them. It's entirely possible that you are farming with a group and someone ends up needing to bail. Rather than having to regroup at the dungeon entrance, maybe you'll see a solo player somewhere nearby that can be added as a quick fill-in. Maybe someone isn't able to get a group so they instead opt for the much slower pace of solo XP until a spot in the area becomes available ... I would much rather see folks in that situation have the opportunity to do "something" rather than being stuck at the entrance, completely dependant on other players. Again, the biggest thing is balancing risk vs reward. I understand and appreciate the stances many have shared in regards to disapproving of a solo mentality, but grouping up will have plenty of incentives in it's own right ... we don't need to completely handicap players from solo play.
As Gnog pointed out, though, we really need to make sure that no solo player can XP or farm as efficiently as a full group. The best way to do that, in my opinion, is ensure that the game is very challenging. You have to get clever with respawns, roaming paths, dispositions, encounter types, etc. Solo play deserves a spot on the totem poll of risk vs reward ... but it's ceiling should never be as high as the floor for a standard group. FFXI was a great example of how I would like to see solo potential handled. I played a paladin that was always semi-decent at soloing due to the sustain from being able to heal. I wasn't able to do anything spectacular, but I could kill stuff and need to regen pretty often. It wasn't until way later in the game, after I leveled my ninja sub-class all the way up, upgraded all my gear, and could afford to stock up on important consumables that I could actually start taking down some decent names. There was always risk though ... it was never a walk in the park, and before I ever had a chance to do amazing things solo, I had to pour hundreds of hours into character development that mostly revolved around grouping. Getting to and fro any worthwhile destination was a challenge. If you got an untimely add, you were probably dead. Beyond just name-farming, my character had also become proficient at mining ores in/around a dangerous volcano. I had to rotate consumables that allowed me to move around without setting off sound/sight/scent detection methods that different mobs had, just to get in a position where I could take one down while a nearby roamer started pathing the opposite direction. You had to learn the lay of the land to be able to do it. It was expensive to even try ... and if you didn't get lucky with a few ores, or died a few times, it was entirely possible you came out behind after a multi-hour session. There was a ton of risk involved, but after plenty of trial and error, I was able to master the pathing, respawn timers, safe spots, and understanding of exactly what I could or could not handle. You had to play close to perfect to pull some of this stuff off, and it felt very satisfying knowing that I was able to improve my ability to navigate while solo, when the potential for death was at an all time high.
My opinion on soloing is that it should be similar to how EQ/VG/EQOA did it. Balance a given section of content around a certain target (solo, group, raid) and if the non-solo content ends up getting solo'd (very slowly) by some god tier classes/players, so be it.
I'm also a solo hero so I understand the desire to get out there and push the limits. Similarly, I'm 100% against artificial limitations that prevent players from even attempting it in the name of "balance".
I get a lot of enjoyment from pitting my skills and my character's spells and abilities against various content. I don't do it all the time, but there are just some days you do not want to be in a group. Brad has said time and time again that soloing will be in the game but that it will not be as efficient as grouping. This is fine because in EQ1/EQ2/VG this was also the case: Grouping, at least in my experience, always earned xp and money faster.
Liav said:My opinion on soloing is that it should be similar to how EQ/VG/EQOA did it. Balance a given section of content around a certain target (solo, group, raid) and if the non-solo content ends up getting solo'd (very slowly) by some god tier classes/players, so be it.
I'm also a solo hero so I understand the desire to get out there and push the limits. Similarly, I'm 100% against artificial limitations that prevent players from even attempting it in the name of "balance".
To further touch on this, I think it makes sense to make local wildlife mostly designed to be solo friendly mobs, as long as you are within level range. While humaniod camps, and more elite type mobs to be group/raid oriented. This way, if you don't have much time available you can still accomplish something by traveling into the woods somewhere nearby and hunt down local wildlife.
I'm not one who personally much enjoy soloing, but I don't think there's any need to artificially prevent it either. Grouping will happen organically as long as level appropriate mobs pose a threat, is the most efficient solution and easier access to higher quality loot. Someone who is soloing a group mob, not only runs the risk of getting killed by that one NPC on his own, but also does so way slower, with much more downtime between kills, and will surely die should in the event of getting agro from a second mob.
In the event of someone is so capable of soloing what is typically considered group content close to the efficiency of a group, it'll likely down to a class balance issue. Which is a different discussion entirely.
I really hope they don't do anything like let people get away with soloing mobs that are red/yellow/white con because if they can then it would mean grouping makes mobs trivial. Blue should be like a yellow for someone solo, light blue a white, and green a blue.
Personally I think solo should offer no more than 50% of the experience you could earn in an average group in the same amount of time, so if it were to take 300 hours to max while grouping it should be 600 for solo.
And I really wish people would stop pretending to know what any of the classes do/are capable of, especially those that we haven't even seen yet: "however I think you should be advised that Enchanters are the kings of solo. We can do things no other class could ever hope to do. As for hoping we die if we even try? If we are talking solo content then no. Enchanters will dominate it. "
I hope they promote grouping by giving it xp advantages, i would only want the kind of soloing your talking about to be a fun challenge as it was in EQ not an good strategy for a run to level 50. Though Enc solo in EQ was too easy at times, Tash, Charm, Buff, Attack, Tash, Dot, Root, Relax. haha :p
Liav said:Grouping has an intrinsic xp advantage, it does not require additional incentives.
Yeah thats fair enough and probably true, but if the kill speed vs xp worked out in one example from the OP with a soloer picking up full 6000 mob xp, i think it would need a tweak one way or another
didnt make that clear :)
Liav said:Grouping has an intrinsic xp advantage, it does not require additional incentives.
If you don't give an advantage to grouping, there's no reason to have a full group. You'll just find out what the most efficient way is based on kill speed and dps and run with it.
Nephretiti said:Should Soloers get XP bonus because they are completing content without help - and that the odds of failing are MUCH higher while solo? Or should there just be something that blocks Neph from killing a group mob while solo? (I hope not!). Let's discuss...
IMHO, no XP bonuses for soloing. The whole point behind Pantheon is supposed to be a return to social gaming and a strong emphasis on grouping up. If you give soloers a bonus, you are encouraging the opposite: why group up and have to share loot when you can go alone, get all the shinies and still get an XP boost?
You mention soloing content in ESO. I did the same much of the time when not doing raids with my guild, and I remember I was thrilled when I managed to solo a group dungeon (though silly enrage timers meant this wasn't really an option in most cases). But I'm sure you'll also remember that, possibly as a result to heavy soloing, a large portion of the player base was completely unacquainted with group play and unable to play their role if and when they decided to jump into groups. I understand the thrill of soloing content, but I think it should be reserved for your personal bragging rights rather than be encouraged in general.
This is a very nice read.
I intuited this differentiation of the issue in the OP's and subsequent comments:
Mob gives 6,000xp. If you solo and win, you get 6,000xp. If you are in a group, you can tackle the same mobs faster, therefore more exp in group in Mob vs time. Solo takes 3 hours for named- but you did it! , whereas group takes 1 hour for named and does the overlord in the back
Or, same details as above, but if in a group you get 7,000xp each per mob merely for the sake of being in a group.
Solo accomplishment feeling,translated into exp: by this I mean it would be nice in seeing the feeling you get from taking down a monster way higher than you translated into the same exp as if in a group or 6000xp no matter how long it takes.
Is that it?
Soloing tough mobs also gives bragging rights and makes other classes want to see how they can push the envelope solo. Eventually, everyone wants pets- LOL.
Nephretiti said:I see a few responses to the Powerleveling aspect, but I still think the issue here is that we still have not defined what a PL actually is. What do YOU thinl power leveling is? Is twinking a form of power leveling? Someone posted that it isn't and that it doesn't really do anything or much for the toon being twinked. Of course it does. That's why it gets done. If it didn't trivialize (or at lower teh difficulty greatly) then no one would spend the time/effort to do it. But twinking occurs all the time.
The definition of pwerleveling has never change it has always been when someone much higher than you offers you his services to boost you through the levels by cheaping the experience and the gameplay of the game by making the mobs you are fighting usually much higher than you but easier to kill than if you soloing.
Liav said:Grouping has an intrinsic xp advantage, it does not require additional incentives.
This is why I always loved XP chains from FFXI. They reinforced the value of "grouping" because only a well optimized and balanced group was capable of making the most of the bonus. (Solo players could also achieve the bonus, but only beastmasters or very specialized players could get the big ones) My hope is that players maintain a fair degree of solo viability if they are geared for it, but it should always be "extra" dangerous. While it's true that there is an intrinsic bonus to grouping (less dangerous, easier to kill due to a range of extra debuffs from the group) there are also disadvantages to grouping, depending on the goal a player has set for themself. The same logic applies to a raid group killing stuff with less than a full force. If you can clear an older raid zone with a single group, there are plenty who will do exactly that for maximum loot acquisition/concentration.
If someone has limited time, and wants to focus exclusively on farming for plat, it would make sense to try and get stuff done solo. If you get lucky and something good drops, there is no risk of losing it to someone else in group. If you go on a mining expedition, you get all the ores. So while I do agree that there is an intrinsic bonus to grouping, there is also an intrinsic bonus to solo play. It's just a trade-off of XP for potentially better loot acquisition. I would much rather see some sort of XP bonus for grouping than a loot bonus, and even then, it should be gated behind optimal play. Don't just give groups a bonus because they are in a group. Make them earn it.
XP chains were an amazing incentive to promote group play, discourage multi-boxing, and promote/reward people for going out of their way to help other players rather than just helping themself. The good chains were impossible to achieve unless your group was coordinated and on their A game in the teamwork department. They also encouraged socialization and a little bit of downtime ... you had to figure out a rotation, or a plan to make them work. People would go out of their way to get people on the same page, even with a language translator as an obstacle.
Riahuf22 said:The definition of pwerleveling has never change it has always been when someone much higher than you offers you his services to boost you through the levels by cheaping the experience and the gameplay of the game by making the mobs you are fighting usually much higher than you but easier to kill than if you soloing.
I totally agree with this definition and have always felt this to be the main form of Power leveling. But there ARE other forms. In EQ2 it was easy enough for someone that was very well twinked to be the Power Leveler. It was usually a SK and it was almost exclusively in a Dungoen Maker dungeon. They would even turn thier XP off so that they could stay at that level and make some hefty coin doing it. It did not require someone to be several levels higher. Sometimes all they had to do was mentor down. There is also some debate regarding whether the PLer is even part of the group - They require you to get the first hit and then they step in and gobsmack the little grey mob that is red to you. Druids were the kings of PLs back in EQ - like previously posted all they had to do was slap a thorn shield on you and let you get hit. The damage mobs received came from the guy being power leveled even though all he had to do was sit there. If we decided that no one could assist you in any way outside of the encounter, then we start running into some unwanted things that would be bad. Do we really want to remove outside healing from passersby? This is a tough nut to crack. I was hoping that THIS is what we would be discussing here.