I am personally anti alt, I like to experience the content once and try and do it all. Also people know me as that toon after awhile and I truely have a connection with my toon and friends.
To give a example on eq2 stormhold , I had damn near every achievement that you can aquire + every quest completed good/evil side and we are talking thousands of quests to give you a idea.
With that being said , if you are allowing rerolling under this system for ANY type of buff or stat bonus it defeats the above playstyle because I will not do it twice , since it is time consumming.
In fact it will turn into a I need to power level through content to use the Progeny system so I can min/max honestly . I know some of you are going to say its only a 1 % buff or its not required , but for some of us that is the game . That 1 % buff is huge for some of us and it does turn into being required to min/max and push are characters to the fullest.
I do not want to have to reroll for even a slight buff , so if this system is used IMO there is a real need to take that into consideration.
Alternative suggestion for the systems are unlocks on various race/class combos ? Anything really that does not give a statistical advantage in any way shape or form to the alt.
Also recruiting Cleric must be xxx level 3rd generation or higher comes to the front of my mind.
As for mentoring , sure its a entirely diffrent system . I have no problem with people deleveling to experience content and helping friends but there needs to be a system in place , that lowers exp values if anything for the person doing the mentoring. If the point of the system is to help a friend , great im all for it ... but if it can be used by high level toons to bypass current tier content and gain exp that is a issue.
Xxar said:I am personally anti alt, I like to experience the content once and try and do it all. Also people know me as that toon after awhile and I truely have a connection with my toon and friends.
To give a example on eq2 stormhold , I had damn near every achievement that you can aquire + every quest completed good/evil side and we are talking thousands of quests to give you a idea.
With that being said , if you are allowing rerolling under this system for ANY type of buff or stat bonus it defeats the above playstyle because I will not do it twice , since it is time consumming.
In fact it will turn into a I need to power level through content to use the Progeny system so I can min/max honestly . I know some of you are going to say its only a 1 % buff or its not required , but for some of us that is the game . That 1 % buff is huge for some of us and it does turn into being required to min/max and push are characters to the fullest.
I do not want to have to reroll for even a slight buff , so if this system is used IMO there is a real need to take that into consideration.
Alternative suggestion for the systems are unlocks on various race/class combos ? Anything really that does not give a statistical advantage in any way shape or form to the alt.
Also recruiting Cleric must be xxx level 3rd generation or higher comes to the front of my mind.
As for mentoring , sure its a entirely diffrent system . I have no problem with people deleveling to experience content and helping friends but there needs to be a system in place , that lowers exp values if anything for the person doing the mentoring. If the point of the system is to help a friend , great im all for it ... but if it can be used by high level toons to bypass current tier content and gain exp that is a issue.
Personally, I would love to have incentives to relevel. It's almost impossible to experience ALL content while you level up and it still be relative to your level range. I don't want to complete level 10 quests while I'm 30, so those quests never get completed if I didn't get around to them while they were level appropriate. Creating an incentive to relevel would allow me to get back into the lower tiers of the game and take different paths than I did the first time, explore new areas, do more quests, etc. Once I get to max level, I don't have ANY incentive to go and visit the lower level zones again unless I'm helping a friend. Players like me miss out on a ton of the game because of that ... I usually try to keep my quest log completely full, and I can't tell you how many times I have had to delete an old quest and feel like I missed out on something. It just isn't appealing to complete lower level quests once they're trivialized. We still have zero confirmation on how the system will work exactly, but if the Progeny system is being implemented with the goal of encouraging players to re-experience the game, I'm all for that. I would have a much deeper appreciation for the entirety of the game and would be estatic to see an active population throughout all areas/tiers of the game. That's what makes a world feel alive, and it's extremely important when it comes to providing the most enjoyable experience possible for new players. Who wants to join a game when the majority of the playerbase is 6 months ahead of you and the beginning areas are desolate. The game would be so much more inviting, appealing, and enjoyable when new players are able to stumble upon veterans of the game that can help guide them through the world, all the while forming an organic relationship with someone that you otherwise never would have seen. It's hard to describe, but FFXI did this extremely well.
As stated its just a personal view point and nothing is confirmed as you said.
As for redoing all the previous content that you missed, that is the point of a mentoring system and alts.
The ability to have multiple high level archtypes , should be it's own incentive or helping out a friend should be reward enough.
Also to clarify , I never said the Progeny system was a bad concept. I just think it needs to be thought out extreamly well and keep all play styles in mind.
That is why , I suggested perhaps the ability to cross race/class. It also makes sense from a lore and game perspective . Ie you are a elf warrior that adventured and you have a son . The son grows up hearing about paladins and seeks them out... elf paladin :P
As for the 6 month ahead comment , I do understand your view point. I also believe alot of that is based on leveling curve , if there is deleveling and exp lose . If there is you won't have a extreamly top heavy game , since the population will be spread based on learning curve.
Also I played FFXI top end , I know exactly what you speak of :) Lets just never talk about skygods :/
Xxar said:As stated its just a personal view point and nothing is confirmed as you said.
As for redoing all the previous content that you missed, that is the point of a mentoring system and alts.
The ability to have multiple high level archtypes , should be it's own incentive or helping out a friend should be reward enough.
Also to clarify , I never said the Progeny system was a bad concept. I just think it needs to be thought out extreamly well and keep all play styles in mind.
That is why , I suggested perhaps the ability to cross race/class. It also makes sense from a lore and game perspective . Ie you are a elf warrior that adventured and you have a son . The son grows up hearing about paladins and seeks them out... elf paladin :P
As for the 6 month ahead comment , I do understand your view point. I also believe alot of that is based on leveling curve , if there is deleveling and exp lose . If there is you won't have a extreamly top heavy game , since the population will be spread based on learning curve.
Also I played FFXI top end , I know exactly what you speak of :) Lets just never talk about skygods :/
But I loved Sky! Open contested raid zones FOR THE WIN!
"As for redoing all the previous content that you missed, that is the point of a mentoring system and alts."
The mentoring system still wouldn't provide the same type of experience I was looking for. It might delevel my character and help with balancing my power relative to the content I'm going through, but it wouldn't be naturally appealing to me. I love helping friends and all but I don't want to mentor for the sake of helping someone else ... I'd much prefer getting something out of the session for my own character as well. If I'm a max level character and mentoring a friend through level 20 content, odds are, I won't find something that would be beneficial for my max level character. Quest rewards would most likely be trivialized, the income gaining potential be minimal, and the sense of progression inopportune. If AA's were implemented that would be a different story.
"The ability to have multiple high level archtypes , should be it's own incentive or helping out a friend should be reward enough."
For someone like me, that isn't an enticing incentive. I prefer to focus on one character and be a true master of my class. I just never really cared about leveling alts. In FFXI, that wasn't the case. I took paladin to level 75, and then also leveled warrior, ninja, and whitemage to level 37. I'm sure you understand the reasoning why in that setting, I was all for going back and releveling. As far as helping friends goes ... I would be way more commited to helping a lower level player if we were actually growing together. I've mentored plenty of times but eventually it starts to feel redundant. I usually start to feel like I'm trivializing my own worth by having a max level character just coasting through trivial content. If I felt like I was growing with the friend I was helping, it would feel much more rewarding. And I understand that this can be accomplished by just rolling an alt ... but again, I don't care to roll alts. If releveling can make my main character stronger though, that would provide an amazing replay value for me and I can see myself doing it as much as possible. I don't think that's how it's going to work though, I think it will be the future generation character that gets the advantage ... and that's fine too, because I would just relevel the same class. If they allowed any degree of cross-classing I would love that, but would hope that it would be limited within a specific archetype to keep role interdependance in check. For example, if I started off as a cleric main, I would be able to retain certain cleric abilities while I releveled using a shaman as my progeny. Next time around I reroll a druid, where I can keep abilties from both cleric and shaman. I think that would be amazing. Certain abilities would always remain unique to their class, but if some are shareable that could be fun. That way, a 3'rd generation cleric would still feel different than a 3rd generation druid even if they both leveled all of the healing classes while advancing to the 3'rd generation.
"As for the 6 month ahead comment , I do understand your view point. I also believe alot of that is based on leveling curve , if there is deleveling and exp lose . If there is you won't have a extreamly top heavy game , since the population will be spread based on learning curve."
The longer the game is out, the larger the gap between min/max level. Instead of 6 months, imagine several years. In FFXI there was both deleveling and XP loss, but that still didn't stop me from grinding all the way to max level with a steady amount of players being available in my level range. It wasn't because of the curve, or people deleveling, but rather people leveling an alternate class. I remember seeing some players at max level of every class in the game when I first started playing. It was great, because I actually had a chance to play with some of those people and they contributed so much to the group it was just insane. Because of their mastery with the leveling process (having done it X amount of times already) we would always have very efficient runs in terms of both XP and loot. In a very dangerous feeling game, we would have a player experienced enough to help us navigate through tough areas without being overwhelmed by surprises that most certainly would have killed us had we not been prepared. That type of social interaction is priceless, and this time around I hope to be that veteran player helping out the new folks. Time to pay it forward. =D
The mentoring system still wouldn't provide the same type of experience I was looking for. It might delevel my character and help with balancing my power relative to the content I'm going through, but it wouldn't be naturally appealing to me. I love helping friends and all but I don't want to mentor for the sake of helping someone else ... I'd much prefer getting something out of the session for my own character as well. If I'm a max level character and mentoring a friend through level 20 content, odds are, I won't find something that would be beneficial for my max level character. Quest rewards would most likely be trivialized, the income gaining potential be minimal, and the sense of progression inopportune. If AA's were implemented that would be a different story.
If all items are tradeable , you will be getting something out the deal. Either sell loot or gear for a alt + helping a friend :). It is a two edged sword , so we can go back and forth having valid points on both sides.
For someone like me, that isn't an enticing incentive. I prefer to focus on one character and be a true master of my class. I just never really cared about leveling alts. In FFXI, that wasn't the case. I took paladin to level 75, and then also leveled warrior, ninja, and whitemage to level 37. I'm sure you understand the reasoning why in that setting, I was all for going back and releveling. As far as helping friends goes ... I would be way more commited to helping a lower level player if we were actually growing together. I've mentored plenty of times but eventually it starts to feel redundant. I usually start to feel like I'm trivializing my own worth by having a max level character just coasting through trivial content. If I felt like I was growing with the friend I was helping, it would feel much more rewarding. And I understand that this can be accomplished by just rolling an alt ... but again, I don't care to roll alts. If releveling can make my main character stronger though, that would provide an amazing replay value for me and I can see myself doing it as much as possible. I don't think that's how it's going to work though, I think it will be the future generation character that gets the advantage ... and that's fine too, because I would just relevel the same class. If they allowed any degree of cross-classing I would love that, but would hope that it would be limited within a specific archetype to keep class interdependance in check. For example, if I started off as a cleric main, I would be able to retain certain cleric abilities while I releveled using a shaman as my progeny. Next time around I reroll a druid, where I can keep abilties from both cleric and shaman. I think that would be amazing. Certain abilities would always remain unique to their class, but if some are shareable that could be fun. That way, a 3'rd generation cleric would still feel different than a 3rd generation druid even if they both leveled all of the healing classes while advancing to the 3'rd generation.
I take it we are both anti alt. Once again we both have valid points , just diffrent view points.
One does not roll a alt or use a progeny system from warrior to warrior and it not be redundant even if there is a stat modifier associated. Even more so when talking about mastering a class , no matter what you are just rehashing content. Do not get me wrong there is a nothing wrong with that , but theres a reason its a alt.
The longer the game is out, the larger the gap between min/max level. Instead of 6 months, imagine several years. In FFXI there was both deleveling and XP loss, but that still didn't stop me from grinding all the way to max level with a steady amount of players being available in my level range. It wasn't because of the curve, or people deleveling, but rather people leveling an alternate class. I remember seeing some players at max level of every class in the game when I first started playing. It was great, because I actually had a chance to play with some of those people and they contributed so much to the group it was just insane. Because of their mastery with the leveling process (having done it X amount of times already) we would always have very efficient runs in terms of both XP and loot. In a very dangerous feeling game, we would have a player experienced enough to help us navigate through tough areas without being overwhelmed by surprises that otherwise most certainly would have killed us had we not been prepared. That type of social interaction is priceless, and this time around I hope to be that veteran player helping out the new folks. Time to pay it forward. =D
Lol , once again we are talking about a alt. I have nothing against people that want to play them, but in general im from the view point of a main will always out perform a alt. In a progeny system , IF there is a stastical advantage that will not be the case. I am simply trying to min/max so im doing a progeny from warrior to warrior for a statistical advantage , there is nothing more to master about the archtype.
This also moves into after the 6 month time frame , as you stated .. do you honestly , think someone is going to be back flagging old content raids , keys etc if we have flagging years down the line? This is not to even touch on the subject of twinking toons or even new content that I am sure will be added in that time frame gap. Even you admit that in ffxi there was always people leveling a alternate class, this is because there its a multi class based system , or once again there playing a alt. I see it being no diffrent here , besides the multi class aspect.
I appreciate diffrent view points and not trying to be the thorn. I just see fundemental flaws if there is a advantage associated with it.
I am open to debate and alternatives. I am in the state of mind , that it should be either the ability to cross class restrictions or even a wow's heroic character concept but done correctly . Wizard > Necromancer or Rogue > Bard to use as a suggestion . That will truely impact replayability and also not come across as starting over for the sake of starting over.
Well we really just need to see what they have planned for Progeny. Just gotta be patient.
As for me I will level up something, and likely use it to progeny into a Bard if I can. Im gonna assume that no classes will be locked out through Progeny though. But who knows.
@Xxar
Whats wrong with Sky or even Sea? Those were probably the best designed endgame content in the XI as far as Im concerned. Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, etc were all fun but nothing compared to Sky or Sea at least in my opinion.
There are some pretty big threads on the forums about mentoring. At this point what we know, is that mentoring will probably be limited. Aradune suggested that it will be added as it's needed due to low population in a level range. Perhaps only for the first 10 levels early on.
I think that's a smart approach. The world should not bend merely because people want to be allowed to group with a low level player. It should only exist to fill the need when people are unable to group with others. If you really want to play with someone all the way up, the alt should be the only viable alternative.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3215/matchmaking/view/post_id/49116
Dullahan said:There are some pretty big threads on the forums about mentoring. At this point what we know, is that mentoring will probably be limited. Aradune suggested that it will be added as it's needed due to low population in a level range. Perhaps only for the first 10 levels early on.
I think that's a smart approach. The world should not bend merely because people want to be allowed to group with a low level player. It should only exist to fill the need when people are unable to group with others. If you really want to play with someone all the way up, the alt should be the only viable alternative.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3215/matchmaking/view/post_id/49116
I have to disagree. If you read the comments that the OP posted from Aradune, Mentoring doesn't sound limited to lower levels at all. I believe they intend to have it throughout the game.
Alts are not the end-all.
You could on-board players by allowing mentoring 1-10. Permitted the game has a thriving playerbase, I believe further mentoring to be counterproductive. Part of what made EverQuest so great was that everyone needed to go out and meet people to level and accomplish goals. A big part of the challenge was of a social nature. Yes, there should be tools to assist you in this, but ultimately it's of the utmost importance that even random unaffiliated players be both valued and needed by others. Allowing pre-existing communities to circumvent the broader community using systems like mentoring, creates cliques and an environment of exclusion rather than inclusion.
I like the idea of mentoring. Would definitely be something I could see doing given the number of times I've helped people lower level out in the past.
The progeny idea is very intriguing. I was thinking about what it would take for me to get rid of my main character I spent a six or more months leveling. I think I would sacrifice my character if I their child could get a unique spell and some kind of hand me down armor/weapon appearance.
So my kid would get "Call of the Ancestors" and be able to summon an etheral gaurdian of some sort. Maybe not even the same class as my ancestor but perhaps someone they met during a quest who had sworn to serve whether in life or death. So I get the spirit of that person to help my kids. This would let you pick what kind of help you would like. Even be it's own quest line that you complete as part of the progeny ritual.
Then the appearnce item could be part of a set that gets handed down from generation to generation.
Each successive generation would get a different quest so they wouldn't keep getting a new helper everytime. Maybe the second time get a faster mount. The third time you can pick a spell from a different class. The fourth time a unique type of housing on a special plot of land.
In the end the combat power of each generation isn't really increased but the reward is something that would make you think about whether or not you really want to sacrifice your character.
What would be cool is that the sacrifice doesn't mean the character disappears. I'd love to see my character slowly grow old at the family house. Eventually they would die and be buried but it wouldn't be an immediate thing. They would be there for three or four months as a reminder of all I've done and give me time to get used to the new character.
So uhhmmm ... some more juicy info. Anybody else notice these 3 little things being added to The Pantheon Difference?
Future Features
Building Outposts
Non-Instanced Housing
Player-run dungeons and regions
No real explanation provided yet, but all very cool features that I am happy to hear about. Non-instanced housing is pretty self explanatory, and I think it's awesome. I liked how housing worked in Vanguard but I'm sure it will be much better in Pantheon. Building outposts sounds really cool. I remember hearing Brad talk about people setting up an outpost outside of a certain area, and being able to pack up their stuff and move it elsewhere later. I have always wanted something like that in an MMO. The last one is the most intriguing because I have no idea how to interpret it ... player run dungeons and regions? Anybody have an idea on what that means? .... more speculation!
Oh ... and this.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/living_codex/
I don't remember seeing that info before. Have I just been oblivious this entire time? I cannot imagine that being the case.
Signet of Synergy sounds awesome!!!!
All of that has been there for months. The first three were talked about briefly but not a focus for now. Look for them as part of expansion content.
That last bit with the living codex was part of the first newsletter.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/dev_diaries_1115/
But yes very cool stuff.
Thanks for clarifying. I thought the codex page seemed vaguely familiar ... I think it might have been one of the first pages I looked at when I came to the forum and I didn't fully digest/understand any of it, and then I just never ended up finding it again. I'm really surprised I haven't seen more threads on here talking about it. The idea of there being special kinds of synergy that can be unlocked (depending on group comp?) sounds really intriguing. What's the scoop on player run dungeons and regions? Is it a point to emphasize that they will be manually run as opposed to things like dungeon finder?
From what I recall from the AMA with Brad, one of the main reasons for contemplating a mentoring or progeny system was to provide a steady stream of 'more experienced' characters in the starting/lower levels. The aim was to ensure that new players would not be entering the game to find neither players for grouping nor be left comepletely at sea coming, as is likely, from a more 'casual oriented, hand-holding, themepark style MMO'.
Thus the mentoring option:
Though Brad has stated that it is essential the mentored character is not overpowered when compared to a starting low level character - hence not trivialising the content.
Thus the Progeny option:
An incentive to either create an Alt, or potentially 'remake' your main. Both driven with the aim of ensuring there are more 'experienced' players in the lower levels to help new players climb a steep learning curve.
There is a picture which I suspect this illustrates what he is trying to avoid!
.... Just google 'EVE learning curve'
Interesting information. I hope, in addition to the Mentor system, they allow players to set their level arbitrarily to a lower value, even if they're alone or everyone in the group is a higher level.
This feature would lead to being able to entice max level players to all zones of all levels in the game, persistently over time, with appropriate environmental challenges and rewards.
This is the part that made me smile:
oneADseven said:Albatroes said:
My question about that is, will it be as extreme as FFXI/XIV when you scale down and grey out your higher level abilities or will it be like Rift/GW2 where you keep all your abilities but they are just scaled down in terms of damage?
Aradune: Not sure yet -- we may simply save your character every time you level and then you'd temporarily become that character. Perhaps with some bonuses.
To me, it's not whether or not they're doing mentoring, it's that they're looking at a new way of doing it if it's implemented. That's a really good idea Brad has there to try to replicate your character at that level. They may not be able to get it to work, but I like that they're thinking outside of the box instead of just going, "let's just copy it from this game since we know it works."
(Edited, because apparently I found a way to get "snot" into this paragraph because of a typo. Wheee!)