I would be okay if it was used for communication purposes, and perhaps even be integrated to some degree such as Niloiv suggested. Allowing players to set certain chat assignments to their phone is appealing to me. Allowing players to create calendar events that their comrades can sign up to would also be okay. I'm fine with being able to pull up my quest journal and view some of the dialogues, and perhaps other kind of logs such as something tied into the rites of passage, lore, or my spell/ability lists. Where I draw the line, personally, is granting remote access to features of the game that should require an attentive person that is fully immersed in the world.
I don't think we should be able to craft, manage our bank, or utilize the auction house or any other kind of market in any way. I feel this would take away from the immersion and social aspect of the game. If players are allowed to craft/trade/bank while on their phone, that takes away from the players who are actually doing those things in game. I can't imagine anybody would be okay with allowing players to grind XP or quest, so why should they be able to craft/trade/bank? Is the time/effort of a crafter or tradesmen less valuable than an adventurer? I understand that it's 2017, and as it stands, we don't have a single good MMO available on the market right now and that's at least partially due to this technology boom we have experienced over the last decade. We live in a time where convenience is demanded, not expected -- how did we get here? It starts by reinforcing that you're willing to integrate convenience directly into your product/service.
I think it's important to keep ourselves in check in regards to the "It's 2017!" crap. We have evolved as a society in many ways, but we've also been creeping further and further away from important pieces of our heritage. There are times when I want to enjoy something old-fashioned. I live in Ohio where we have a lot of Amish families. I have had the chance to meet a few of them over my lifetime and from what I have observed, they have certain traditions that are hardcoded into their way of life. They live in rural areas, but you'll still see them at the zoo or amusement parks from time to time.
The Amish society has been doubling their population every 20 years, and also boasts an 80% retention rate. What I mean by that is this; 4 out of 5 children born into the Amish way of life will continue to embrace the Amish culture beyond adulthood. Why do you think that is? They limit their exposure to outside influence/culture because they already have a way of life that has allowed their people to thrive for many generations. When a new family moves into their community, the entire village chips in to accomodate them. Amish are naturally gifted crafters and tradesmen and I have literally watched a group of them build an entire house from scratch in less than a week.
We all know that VR is looking to bring back the oldschool to this genre, and that's why most of us are here. One of the biggest focal points of all, though, is the sense of community. If a player is able to craft and play the market remotely from their phone, I think that will hurt our sense of community. I feel that many players would be getting robbed of an authentic experience of dealing with a real and attentive person in the game. I also think that it would have a nasty impact on the economy as a whole.
My 7 year old daughter should not be able to craft a breastplate and then sell it while she is on her 20 minute recess at school. If she could, that would diminish the value of time that someone else is spending doing the same thing while they are actually in the game. Technology has it's uses, but in my opinion, I do not want to see it used as a way for people to bypass important time requirements in the game. If it's used to communicate or to syncrhonize certain information that could otherwise be found on Google, I would be okay with that. It should not, however, be used in any way that can produce/manipulate tangible in-game assets.
@Niloiv
A fair reply.
Here are my thoughts :
1) While I agree in part, in this case the ability to play on a phone app dictates that the gameplay be shallow enough for that to be possible. Phones have limited input and processing capability. You can't really accomodate 15-20 spells that you wish to access on the fly, as an example. You can't easily or gracefully present 100s of items that exist within your personal inventory (let alone your bank space) and it would be pretty cumbersome to manipulate that inventory for things like crafting without creating automation systems.
The results here are then limited by necessity. Either you make the PC/Mac gameplay distilled down to the point that these are not factors on a phone or tablet, which effects every player regardless of what platform they are logging in from. Or, you distill down the gameplay on a phone app so that it makes things manageable while not altering PC/Mac gameplay. In this case you actually risk making play on a app the more desirable platform to use for whatever that distilled gameplay is. Crafting is an example. It would be inappropriate to make crafting more convenient on an app based on the platform's limitations, while leaving the deeper gameplay on the PC/Mac. You'd never want a person to think, "Well I'm logged in to my PC right now, and I'd like to do some crafting, but then I'd have to switch over to my phone or it'll be a PITA."
2) There are those that believe that the "evolution" of gameplay that has existed in the MMO genre isnt an evolution at all, but rather a devolution; A dumbing down and narrowing of options to the point that the depth they loved isnt available in the market any longer, and the challenge and complexity having been destroyed in the name of convenience and inclusion for the broadest possible audience. The crowd here supporting this game is predominantly those who want a return to the more complex and difficult gameplay. This, again, is at odds with the notion of creating simplicity and accessibility to the point to which it's even possible to achieve on a phone app.
3) Depending on the scope of options within a phone app, you're not just talking a delay for release. You're talking a different team of developers. While many in the game development arena have some degree of experience in both PC and mobile platforms, many more have developed for one but not the other. They are not interchangeable, and each have their own host of unique challenges and concerns in almost every aspect of development, from art, to gameplay, to security, to presentation and distribution. There isnt a "port to IOS button" that's just going to change a 30+GB PC game client to a 2GB phone app. The design of the game would have to necissarily be limited by the capabilities of the least capable of the offered platforms. In other words, design to the lowest common denominator.
I'll grant (and have previously) that I have no real issues with chat functionality. I dont see that as being either difficult or detrimental to the health of the game or how its played. I could perhaps be convinced about some of the other things you've mentioned, like raid managers. However, I do draw the line on anything that produces tangible results from gameplay, including crafting. And I draw that line based on the 3 responses above.
Feyshtey said:1) While I agree in part, in this case the ability to play on a phone app dictates that the gameplay be shallow enough for that to be possible. Phones have limited input and processing capability. You can't really accomodate 15-20 spells that you wish to access on the fly, as an example. You can't easily or gracefully present 100s of items that exist within your personal inventory (let alone your bank space) and it would be pretty cumbersome to manipulate that inventory for things like crafting without creating automation systems.
I did not advocate that the core-game mechanics be played on a mobile device, but rather that the mobile device be used to augment the game. None of my proposed ideas indicated this, so I apolgize for causing confusion in how i misscomunicated that, but what I was suggesting was that the mobile device be used almost like an alternative pop-up window that would already be in game, like crafting, chatting, raid controls, etc.
As far as 100's of items to manipulate, I work in a manufactureing industry. My company has 1000's of SKUs to manage, and we do it via an app. That really isnt difficult or new to mobile devices.
Feyshtey said:2) There are those that believe that the "evolution" of gameplay that has existed in the MMO genre isnt an evolution at all, but rather a devolution; A dumbing down and narrowing of options to the point that the depth they loved isnt available in the market any longer, and the challenge and complexity having been destroyed in the name of convenience and inclusion for the broadest possible audience. The crowd here supporting this game is predominantly those who want a return to the more complex and difficult gameplay. This, again, is at odds with the notion of creating simplicity and accessibility to the point to which it's even possible to achieve on a phone app.
Evolution does not ONLY refer to a progression of simple to complex. It is also understood as just the process of change or noticed patterns. Furtermore, I was talking about "gaming" in general, not MMO in specific. How does offering players different angles to attack a problem have anything to do with the complexity of the game? I guess i view this similiar to the way a person files their taxes: you can do them by hand, mail them in, and reveive your refund check in the mail - OR - you can do it online. I too have welcome the refreshing take that VR is bring to the MMO world with PRtF. So, that makes me feel confident that they can introduced mobile devices in a way that keep the integrety of their game in tact.
Feyshtey said:3) Depending on the scope of options within a phone app, you're not just talking a delay for release. You're talking a different team of developers. While many in the game development arena have some degree of experience in both PC and mobile platforms, many more have developed for one but not the other. They are not interchangeable, and each have their own host of unique challenges and concerns in almost every aspect of development, from art, to gameplay, to security, to presentation and distribution. There isnt a "port to IOS button" that's just going to change a 30+GB PC game client to a 2GB phone app. The design of the game would have to necissarily be limited by the capabilities of the least capable of the offered platforms. In other words, design to the lowest common denominator.
Valid concern. I also said that I do not want any more unnecessary delays. I should have said it better like such: If VR should find a valid merit and practical application that brings a great value that improves the game, then resource allocation could be worth it. I'd imagine this to be at the forefront of their mind.
Thanks for the pushback, Feyshtey
Ok, so my random thoughts would be as follows.
1: Guildchat access, yes please, it would be nice to allow some limited chat access or even the ability to send/recieve /tells from the app. Anything to facilitate communication would be a great tool. I can easily imagine a group taking an extend food break where someone runs to get a pizza or fast food. The ability to just pull up an app and say, "Hey, about to walk out of the Pizza Place, should be back in 5 mins." is something that would be great.
2: Access to in-game data, It would be nice to be able to parse the markets like they can do in EVE. It would be nice to see your characters skill tree's (or however advancement is done) and inventory. It would be nice to see guild inventories so you can text your shaman to get on making X Potions because we're running low. This is more about access to the data for reference and planning purposes, not exactly the ability to manipulate it.
3: Character Widgets, One of the things I'd love to see is the ability to use the phone app as an extra way to manage a charater you are directly logged in to. Think Fallout 4 pipboy app. Without you logged in it would not do anything. If you were logged in it would allow you to use it as an extention of your HUD, perhaps putting your characters health/mana for display, or maybe an EXP tracking bar which isn't normally on your screen, or maybe like the Pipboy app you could manage your inventory and let switch equiped items out as the situation changes without pulling up your character screen / inventory. Note, I wouldn't go as far as to allow it to control fully customizable macros or anything as the last thing I want to see is a person leaving their crafter logged in and just using the app to hit a few macro keys allowing them to craft while away, but as long as the actions they perform serve no purpose unless you are actively sitting at your PC with the character you've logged in then why not? Switching weapons won't effect anything if you aren't at the keyboard to select the next mob and attack it for example, but it would be extremely convenient to swap out a weapon with a bane weapon for undead if one happens to add.
4: Event updates and timers for GM or Holiday style events. Are you running a holiday event from X day to Y day, why not provide us with a day/hour/minute/second timer so we know to get our act together and work on it before its too late. You can also provide information on upcoming events or whatever in the same way.. if something cool is coming up, then we the players not only want a convenient way to know about it, but we want to know in a way we won't miss it.
5: 2 Factor Auth, lets face it hacking is a sign of the times and any MMO worth its salt is going to attract people hoping to profit from it by underhanded methods. 2 Factor Auth is a great way to help cut down on this activity, and lots of players prefer to use it.
6: Easymode, This is where the app would direct new players who want an easy game to another game... Just kidding (would be funny though). However, how about putting some of the tutorial or initial guidance on how to play the game directly on the app. Allow it to walk the players step by step through their first Crafting process, or some basic gameplay. I'm not talking advanced walkthroughs but just the basics, something that they can read/follow and have a general idea of how things work. Mind you this would be in addition to any in-game guidance that may be provided. You know, just another option.
7: Podcasts, I don't think I need to tell anyone in the gaming world that Podcasts for following or keeping up with complex game enviroment is indespencible. I have some fond memories of EVE where I'd download a number of different podcasts where players (mostly) and sometimes devs discussed upcoming changes or changes recently put into place that modify the game. I do my best to read up on the forums and review the patch notes but with over a dozen classes each with their own quirks, a vibrant crafting system and countless unique AIs and events all being tweaked, adjusted and generally improved upon, a lot of stuff can get easily lost in the mix. Podcasts by players can easily fill this gap between the things you do follow and the things you might miss. They also serve as a great way to help understand why something is changing because I remember quite often reading the patch notes and thinking "Oh, the changed so and so.. I wonder why". Ultimately I just think it would be a great thing to include either the ability to download and stream/play podcasts from the app, or the ability to have the app link to appropriate podcasts. Then let the players submit links/podcasts and to keep down the review/VR staff hours used to maintain this, just put a general 18+ yr old disclaimer, where it may contain swear words and that these are fan made and fan submitted with a report link to allow players to report anything truely off topic or not appropriate. Having a list of Pantheon Podcasts right on my phone would be a great way to stay informed, especially since I have a 2 hour round trip commute.
8: Quest Trackers, Now I'm not an advocate for hand holding when it comes to quests. The last thing I really want to see is a list of go here do that and an arrow leading the way (unless its a tutorial style thing where a little hand holding might be appropriate) but having a general quest log would be great. Just some basic information like; Quest Name, Quest Giver, Related NPC Conversations, Quest Items In Your Possession (I hate when I forget I had picked up that item already and went to get another). I don't want to go the hand holding route but I do want to see where I've been so if I go on vacation I don't completely loose my place on what I was doing.
9: Ingame Mail, This may sort have been implied above with communication. However If a mail system exists in game, I'd like to see the ability to access it via the app. It would be extremely nice way to communicate with someone who may be offline and ultimately if you can send items via the mail like other games it would be nice to know that whatever you asked for from someone was sent. Not that you could take items or manage your inventory while off line but rather that you know its there.
oneADseven said:I don't think we should be able to craft, manage our bank, or utilize the auction house or any other kind of market in any way. I feel this would take away from the immersion and social aspect of the game. If players are allowed to craft/trade/bank while on their phone, that takes away from the players who are actually doing those things in game. I can't imagine anybody would be okay with allowing players to grind XP or quest, so why should they be able to craft/trade/bank? Is the time/effort of a crafter or tradesmen less valuable than an adventurer? I understand that it's 2017, and as it stands, we don't have a single good MMO available on the market right now and that's at least partially due to this technology boom we have experienced over the last decade. We live in a time where convenience is demanded, not expected -- how did we get here? It starts by reinforcing that you're willing to integrate convenience directly into your product/service.
This line of thinking gets us nowhere.
People here constantly complain that banking, auction houses, crafting, etc., has no social aspect anyways. How is accessing your bank a social activity? Do you need a friend to help you get your bank open? Do you need a friend to help you buy something from the broker? The argument that allowing this in an app would destroy the social aspects of these activities is total bunk.
oneADseven said:Blah... Blah... Blah...
oneADseven said:We all know that VR is looking to bring back the oldschool to this genre, and that's why most of us are here. One of the biggest focal points of all, though, is the sense of community. If a player is able to craft and play the market remotely from their phone, I think that will hurt our sense of community. I feel that many players would be getting robbed of an authentic experience of dealing with a real and attentive person in the game. I also think that it would have a nasty impact on the economy as a whole.
As stated above, crafting and brokering are not social activities, in themselves. There is no other person involved in the actual crafting or brokering of items. Therefore, no one is get "robbed of an authentic experience." Any personal interaction before and after the crafting can still be had, separately.
oneADseven said:My 7 year old daughter should not be able to craft a breastplate and then sell it while she is on her 20 minute recess at school. If she could, that would diminish the value of time that someone else is spending doing the same thing while they are actually in the game. Technology has it's uses, but in my opinion, I do not want to see it used as a way for people to bypass important time requirements in the game. If it's used to communicate or to syncrhonize certain information that could otherwise be found on Google, I would be okay with that. It should not, however, be used in any way that can produce/manipulate tangible in-game assets.
If your 7 year old daughter can craft a breastplate and sell it in 20 minutes on a desktop, what does it matter if it takes her 20 minutes to do the same in an app? The same time is applied. There is no diminishment of anyone's time. Just because it's an app, does not mean time requirements are removed. That is simply false logic.
When you are on an app, you ARE in game. It does not matter if you are on a PC, Mac, console, app, you are in game. To think otherwise is simply closed mindedness just for the sake of arguing.
Get with the times and understand the gaming does not equal desktop only. Your desktop is just an interface to the game. An app is just an interface to the game. Nothing more, nothing less.
This game is about community, bringing people together. You can do that on MANY platforms. The more ways you allow people to access the rest of the community, the more ways people can come together and be part of the community. Restricting people to desktops only simply limits when and where people can be a part of the community.
Niloiv said:I did not advocate that the core-game mechanics be played on a mobile device, but rather that the mobile device be used to augment the game. None of my proposed ideas indicated this, so I apolgize for causing confusion in how i misscomunicated that, but what I was suggesting was that the mobile device be used almost like an alternative pop-up window that would already be in game, like crafting, chatting, raid controls, etc.
As far as 100's of items to manipulate, I work in a manufactureing industry. My company has 1000's of SKUs to manage, and we do it via an app. That really isnt difficult or new to mobile devices.
Bringing up an ap that lists 1000's (or even 10's of 1000's) of SKU's is not the same as an app that allows manipulating 1000's of items in an engagina and entertaining way, let alone displaying them with uniquely identifiable visual representations. Even if the visuals are simplistic stylized ones, the memory of a cell phone has limitations on how many it can process and present. I can bring up the 1000's of lines of my business' tax information on my cell phone, but it doesnt mean that managing all my tax liabilties and configuring the data on my phone is possible, let alone smart or less cumbersome than a PC.
Niloiv said:Evolution does not ONLY refer to a progression of simple to complex. It is also understood as just the process of change or noticed patterns. Furtermore, I was talking about "gaming" in general, not MMO in specific. How does offering players different angles to attack a problem have anything to do with the complexity of the game? I guess i view this similiar to the way a person files their taxes: you can do them by hand, mail them in, and reveive your refund check in the mail - OR - you can do it online. I too have welcome the refreshing take that VR is bring to the MMO world with PRtF. So, that makes me feel confident that they can introduced mobile devices in a way that keep the integrety of their game in tact.
The offerings of different angles of attacking a problem is exactly what I fear is curbed when limiting those possibilities by distilling game actions down to what is possible on a cell phone. While on a full screen game client on a PC I might have very interesting and engaging possibilities that you wouldnt be able to see, react to, or interact with on a phone. Not in a way that wasnt cumbersome or annoying anyway. I'm speaking specifically about things like crafting here. If the crafting mechanics are designed for PC so that they can be translated to a phone, then the possibilities that might have existed on a PC would have to be scaled accordingly. I would hate to see really good and compelling crafting deluted simply because some wanted it to also exist on mobile devices. Some people want the simplicity of a system where you can just click "Build Badass Breastplate" and a badass breastplate is generated. Others (like me) like something more complex that engages you in the process. Phones dont allow nearly as much of that engagement.
Niloiv said:Valid concern. I also said that I do not want any more unnecessary delays. I should have said it better like such: If VR should find a valid merit and practical application that brings a great value that improves the game, then resource allocation could be worth it. I'd imagine this to be at the forefront of their mind.
Cant argue against good, fun things that don't push back my being able to play till 2021. :)
Kilsin said:If you could use an app to connect to Pantheon what would you like it to do and why? :)
Late on this I know...
Ability to quickly notify guild members, or chat with them, see who is online.
An authentication tool for login.
If there is an auction house, the ability to setup/monitor/manage auctions. ...including purchasing.
VR announcements (such as patch notes, maintenance, server status notices, possibly community events..so on) - something like this would need to be able to customize what I receive notices on
A guild calendar - would be awesome to pull up an event calendar that has noted guild related events that are created
Some sort of wiki tool for quick searches
A talent calculator (if applicable to the game of course)
A tracking tool...for instance, if I'm able to tell the app that any news, topics..so on related to my class, race, or preferred region are flagged for me in some way...something like that
If you have a model that allows for hiring NPCs to perform certain tasks, the ability to manage it (don't think I've seen anything on this so doubtful it is applicable)
...things of this nature would be what I would like to see in an app.
Angrykiz said:Waste of development...
Kiz~
meh, context of when they do it would determine that to me. Right now, obviously not, but on the same token, I would think they would need to have an idea of some things they would at some point in the future want compatible with an app of some sort. ...doesn't make anything definite. ..but an app that is focused on tools/utilization versus a mini-game or something of that nature would help be a differentiator in the market. ...at least one type of differentiator. ...but by all means, I wouldn't want them to expend resources on an app by sacrificing development resources on the game.
...not to mention, by the time the game is fully released, it is quite possible that the "landscape" of apps evolved completely. ..what, 2010 apps were a rarity.....7 years later, you can't sneeze without hitting an app of some sort. There probably is an app for that actually.
...so good to be asking the question, but not necessarily acting on it.
Roadmaps are necessary. :-)
In-app crafting +1
Why think small? Let us craft with the materials we have in our inventory while on our mobile. That'll free up time for exploration and adventure when we're at home in front of the computer. I don't care how basic the functionality is, it just has to work the same as in game. Then you could also have one computer, one character up and not have to dual box with one crafter and one adventurer. Also, the crafting would be limited to what that character has in their inventory, which would no doubt be somewhat limited. In other words, the crafter would still need to log on periodically to play the game from their comp. You would still need to log on in order to do transasctions, trades, ect. I agree with making sure that the items production is time-based (like Eve online), but the items also need to be destructible/degrade over time. This will be more stimulative to the economy than restricting people from crafting to when they are online. This will also ensure that new players onboarding after 6 months+ have a low level economy into which they can insert themselves.
I'm an old guy and I love old games but there's no reason we can't adopt and adapt to new technologies as they develop.
I also think the Devs are big boys and can decide for themselves whether they want to put the time into development themselves, we don't need to argue over the dev-side problems. Let them figure out the details and decide on viability, let us brainstorm for them.
No. Absolutely nothing that changes the game world state at all should be done outside of the game. Readonly info, maybe and then only with a player's opt-in approval to expose it (for info that is per-character like a Magelo-style profile). Actions or crafting work within the world, nada. That is what logging in to the game is for in the first place, so everyone is subject to the same trade-offs, real-time constraints and efforts you are supposed to suffer through to craft. We are all on equal footing, paying equal subs, using equal game world access clients. Period.
Also ... what exactly do you want to be able to do comms-wise that Discord cannot independently already do in spades today elegantly, right now? And with no effort at all on VR's part, I might add.
I'm cool with chat apps because gamers tends to be focused on the game and not on third party softwares (if written), but nothing else. Your game accomplishment should be tied to your time passed in game and not putting wares on sale throught a mobile app during your lunchtime. It's already easy to eat a market in auction house style of sales, you don't need to make it even easier.
In addition to guild chat, access to guild recruitment pages with the ability to chat with a guild recruiter.
The type of information we used to see from resources like magelo, allowing us to view our characters (and others), ranking, gear, etc.
Lore, news on in game events, patch notes and similiar information.
The ability to map out character progression, including targeting specific gear upgrades, allowing the player to develop a target list of activities to engage in, skills to develop, zones to hit, etc.
I also think a clear mission statement for the app would help. is the purpose to provide a free app that would advertise the game, focus on lore, provide gameplay video, explaining why the game is different than other MMO's on the market? Or is it to provide tools and out of game connectivity for current players? Or both? Would it link to your pantheon account or to other social media accounts, or both?
If this App contained even a very rudimentary map that had a dot (color coded by me (the user)) that showed where my friends where, I would use it all the time just for that feature. Just to watch my friends run around the world, would be fun. (If they authorized me to follow them or something.)
If the app allowed chat text to those friends, even better.
If the app allowed checking of server status, patch notes, even better still.
If the app could show me world prices of goods, even better better still.
