zewtastic said:Modern games need to have multiple streams of revenue to stay fresh and viable.
No ... no they dont. Cash shops are for corporate puppet developers who fail at making an engaging and challenging game where players can pay their monthly dues and completely immerse themselves ("live") in the world. For Warcraft wannabe's who make promises of millions to investors but fall short because they were so set on copying every convenient instant gratification handout from WoW they made a game where players can "finish" in a week and get bored at the end of the month.
... seriously people, can we have one @#&$ing game the isnt cheapened and turned into an interactive ad to buy things at a cash shop? Just one? Is it really that much of a burden on you OP to have to actually play the game to get something you want out of it instead of paying to have it delivered to your mailbox?
No, no cash shop. At all. No cosmetics, no pets, no mounts, nothing. Only place cash shops are acceptable is in B2P or F2P games. This is not one of them. Those who 'convert' arent worth the disk space they take up.
fazool said:Some of the most compelling motivators in EQ were for purely cosmetic items.....simply because they looked so cool.
Once we could buy ornaments all that went away, so I have very mixed feelings about it.
I would prefer no cash shop at all, ever. I would rather pay a big subscription price.
Prefer monthly subscription...cash shops just cheapen the game in my view and would make us "like all the rest". IF there were opportunities to purchase Pantheon art, tee shirts, hoodies, coffee cups..and other mementos I would love that.
Maybe bobbleheads of the VR team and or raid bosses? Hehehe Other idea..I actually have a signed tee shirt from The Realm team (Sierra On line) Autographed items...work. I got mine for free due to volunteering as a moderator in those days. I prefer actual items not pixels...would def buy those from time to time. And its good advertising. Bumper stickers..etc. :)
Cana
Kayo said:zewtastic said:Modern games need to have multiple streams of revenue to stay fresh and viable.
No ... no they dont. Cash shops are for corporate puppet developers who fail at making an engaging and challenging game where players can pay their monthly dues and completely immerse themselves ("live") in the world. For Warcraft wannabe's who make promises of millions to investors but fall short because they were so set on copying every convenient instant gratification handout from WoW they made a game where players can "finish" in a week and get bored at the end of the month.
... seriously people, can we have one @#&$ing game the isnt cheapened and turned into an interactive ad to buy things at a cash shop? Just one? Is it really that much of a burden on you OP to have to actually play the game to get something you want out of it instead of paying to have it delivered to your mailbox?
No, no cash shop. At all. No cosmetics, no pets, no mounts, nothing. Only place cash shops are acceptable is in B2P or F2P games. This is not one of them. Those who 'convert' arent worth the disk space they take up.
The missing Like button is a real bummer.
Xonth said: Simple saying "No Cash Shops, Period!" On the front page will be worth its weight in gold. If i had never heard of Pantheon before and I see its an MMO with no cash shop - that alone is enough for me to at least look into it seriously. It says that the game thinks that the content alone is enough to keep the game afloat.
Yeah no pay to win schemes, let me earn my achievements. The challenge is part of the whole idea, I don't want "a win" because I had more money than the other guy. :)
Dullahan said:Kayo said:zewtastic said:Modern games need to have multiple streams of revenue to stay fresh and viable.
No ... no they dont. Cash shops are for corporate puppet developers who fail at making an engaging and challenging game where players can pay their monthly dues and completely immerse themselves ("live") in the world. For Warcraft wannabe's who make promises of millions to investors but fall short because they were so set on copying every convenient instant gratification handout from WoW they made a game where players can "finish" in a week and get bored at the end of the month.
... seriously people, can we have one @#&$ing game the isnt cheapened and turned into an interactive ad to buy things at a cash shop? Just one? Is it really that much of a burden on you OP to have to actually play the game to get something you want out of it instead of paying to have it delivered to your mailbox?
No, no cash shop. At all. No cosmetics, no pets, no mounts, nothing. Only place cash shops are acceptable is in B2P or F2P games. This is not one of them. Those who 'convert' arent worth the disk space they take up.
The missing Like button is a real bummer.
We need a shop that sells like buttons. I would buy it. ;)
Malsirian said:Dullahan said:Kayo said:zewtastic said:Modern games need to have multiple streams of revenue to stay fresh and viable.
No ... no they dont. Cash shops are for corporate puppet developers who fail at making an engaging and challenging game where players can pay their monthly dues and completely immerse themselves ("live") in the world. For Warcraft wannabe's who make promises of millions to investors but fall short because they were so set on copying every convenient instant gratification handout from WoW they made a game where players can "finish" in a week and get bored at the end of the month.
... seriously people, can we have one @#&$ing game the isnt cheapened and turned into an interactive ad to buy things at a cash shop? Just one? Is it really that much of a burden on you OP to have to actually play the game to get something you want out of it instead of paying to have it delivered to your mailbox?
No, no cash shop. At all. No cosmetics, no pets, no mounts, nothing. Only place cash shops are acceptable is in B2P or F2P games. This is not one of them. Those who 'convert' arent worth the disk space they take up.
The missing Like button is a real bummer.
We need a shop that sells like buttons. I would buy it. ;)
Now I'm conflicted.
Kilsin said:I must admit I /facepalmed when I saw the title of this thread but was pleasantly surprised by the maturity shown compared to what I expected to see with so many replies lol :)
My post yesterday was playing it safe, in case we need sell merchandise/fluff/cosmetic items later on down the track (I'm talking 5-10-15 years down the track...) when the honeymoon period wears off and subscription numbers drop to keep the revenue coming in and the game supported.
I should have explained it better as I did not anticipate this thread being created or my post being referred too but to clear it up, we still maintain the stance of no cash shop and will continue that stance through launch and into the future until there may be a time where we need to bring in extra revenue to support the game, if that time ever comes around it will be a priority of mine to speak to the community first to get feedback on what you may wish to see in the store but this is something that may happen 5-10 years from now, or it may not happen at all, so definitely not worth worrying about at this point in time, it was merely an option to consider later on in the games "end years". :)
That sounds so much better then what you said yesterday.
Death to all cash shops!
That being said: Id gladly pay more / month to keep cash shops out. You guys could try and come up with a plan to make that happen. Obviously you can't just give extra for people paying more, as that is the definition of p2w. But you could ask the community what would be ok for us.
Personally id simply pay double and ask for nothing in return. Pretty sure not everyone would do that tho. I may as well pay for multiple accounts and don't mind 15, 20, 25 bucks per account.
Whatever it takes to keep the cash shops out. And i know this may kill Pantheon. Cash shops even cosmetic only... do make TONS of money. But i also agree that id love to SEE what others accomplished INGAME and not see what skin they paid for.
Xonth said: Simple saying "No Cash Shops, Period!" On the front page will be worth its weight in gold. If i had never heard of Pantheon before and I see its an MMO with no cash shop - that alone is enough for me to at least look into it seriously. It says that the game thinks that the content alone is enough to keep the game afloat.
Take this guy seriously. If you really go without a cash shop you WILL have to make up for it in subs. A LOT of people accepeted cash shops as something that is a mandatory evil. Place a BIG FAT BANNER on the front page with "NO SHOP" and you will get attention. Hell, put that on any ad banner you ever place anywhere.
CanadinaXegony said:Yeah no pay to win schemes, let me earn my achievements. The challenge is part of the whole idea, I don't want "a win" because I had more money than the other guy. :)
+1
No cash shops ever please.
I agree Rattenmann, and I have said that before - "no cash shop" is actually a marketing feature for a game like this. For extra revenue please think of other things, such as increased sub cost, expansion sales, service fees (character slots, etc) & premium server fees.
Isn't a cash shop of some kind required to have a streamlined way of providing server/account transfers and such?
BUT WAIT! Clearly having such a cash shop is a slippery slope to pay to win! Clearly paying a subscription fee is technically a cash shop, so that too is a slippery slope to pay to win!
Liav said:Isn't a cash shop of some kind required to have a streamlined way of providing server/account transfers and such?
I agree, I think this would be the tipping point, instead of the thinking- "oh, I like that other server, I have a level 50 character here. Well then, I will just have ot start over on that server and leave my 50 level character here. Oh well." Your subsrtiption stays the same, you just log onto another server.
And I am not adverse to the WOW idea where you could buy a doll of your character (maybe 3D printed?). To make it more than a single POS, perhaps offer it wihtout gear, and micro transactions to buy 3D printed gear pieces to put on your doll with the restriction of only being able to get those items you earned in game(or made and shipped officially from VRI with stamps of authenciticy, etc, signed letter from..some NPC). As you improved it may prrompt repeated purchases of said doll, so you would have more than one- reflecting the progression, I mean...um....like Barbies? Hey, People do! they collect like that some more than others, I mean you also see them on antiques roadshow, so...
Liav said:Isn't a cash shop of some kind required to have a streamlined way of providing server/account transfers and such?
BUT WAIT! Clearly having such a cash shop is a slippery slope to pay to win! Clearly paying a subscription fee is technically a cash shop, so that too is a slippery slope to pay to win!
Your character's reputation is earned in game, so while the transfer itself isn't earned, one of the reasons why the transfer is used is earned. Account transfers, name changes, etc. can trivialize server reputation. Anonymity shouldn't be allowed in a group-centric, non-instanced game. Reputation should matter, even negative. If you're known as an a**, reroll, be ostracized, or be proud of your negative reputation. Having a cash shop is a slippery slope, regardless of the original intent (server transfers only for example). It is much easier to be tempted to add items to an existing shop than to create the shop itself.
And I know you were being facetious with your second point, but, I'll engage anyway. If the point of entry for everyone is equal at $15/month, you pay the subscription for access to all content and everyone is on a level playing field. Paying the subscription fee has no negative effect on gameplay. It does not give you any advantage in game. It does not offer you anything in-game that wasn't earned/obtained. If the subscription amounts raises or lowers, that fact remains the same. It would only be pay to win when one person could pay $30 and obtains Gold Access where a person who pays $15 only obtains Silver.
As Pyye had stated, they should only have an external store selling physical memoribilia.
I don't mind cash shops, and I agree with the OP's stipulations - aesthetic only, if they give us a monthly stipend. I think that's a good reward for keeping your sub active. But overall, I would be happy if it didn't exist at all. You can incorporate the same idea into the game rather than making it a "cash shop". I do like the idea of some kind of reward for actively playing. On the other hand, if the extra money keeps the game alive I am for that.
Liav said:I still think it's naive for the developers to not pursue a purely aesthetic cash shop, but whatever.
It's an amazing revenue stream and outside of a few vocal complainers it seems like a positive. People generally only talk about things when they oppose them, so when you look at articles/forum posts, there is an inherent bias towards a negative opinion of any given thing. It's the same concept with customer reviews. Positive reviews are very rare in contrast with negative ones, because most satisfied people don't feel the psychological drive to invest effort in expressing their positive opinions.
The power over the cash shop rests in the hands of the developers. By not having a cash shop as well, they're basically admitting one of two things:
1. We can't trust ourselves to not sell gameplay advantages, so we're abstaining because we're that incompetent.
2. We're naive enough to pass up on a massive revenue stream because we've fallaciously concluded that cash shops as a concept are flawed, regardless of implementation.
Either way, I do not think it is anyone's best interests to not have one, but I guess I don't really give a **** anyway.
Sorry but I disagree with your premise. The main problem with your premise is the assumption that there is a clear definition of "gameplay advantages". Everyone has a different idea about what constitutes P2W or whatever you want to call it. Where do you draw the line? ESO has been praised for not crossing the line but it all depends on your perspective. For instance, if you are a crafting focused player and don't buy the style motifs and try to painstakingly collect them in game you are at a serious disadvantage vs those who do. It's especially bad considering the HUGE research times required to make some armor but then the styles you have to buy if you want to offer them. It's stupid. Not nearly as bad as other games but it's still stupid.
Whether or not you think that is a good example of P2W doesn't even matter because people will bicker and argue about it ENDLESSLY in-game and on the forums and that alone is enough to not want any part of it for Pantheon. Just go in any game with a cash shop and the chat and game forums are nothing but arguements of what is or isn't P2W. It's a serious detractor from the game in any form IMO.
Beyond that it's also taking away a huge aspect to MMOs that many found enjoyable. Finding cool items in-game could be considered "content" to many people. Having a cash shop (even if it's cosmetic only items) strips away that activity and incentivizes the devs to make the "cool" looking stuff for the cash shop and the in-game items get overlooked. Just look at BDO as a horrible example of this. All items from 1-50+ look almost identical. Many ppl literally look like hobos...then you have these striking 30 dollar cash shop costumes. The fun of finding somthing neat in game is replaced with paying RL money for items in a shop. It's awful. I hate it.
So in summary..NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Please for the love of all that is holy trinity and good..NO CASH SHOP AT ALL. I agree with the other poster that out of game items like T-shirts and mugs and whatnot are fine. I'm also fine with server transfers if that is a thing but no in-game items. PERIOD. pls?
p.s. I know MMOs need money. I'm willing to pay a sub. I think so long as the expectations are real that should be enough. I'm betting most would pay 15-20/mo for a quality MMO that has no cash shop shenanigans. I know I would.
Dullahan said:Kayo said:zewtastic said:Modern games need to have multiple streams of revenue to stay fresh and viable.
No ... no they dont. Cash shops are for corporate puppet developers who fail at making an engaging and challenging game where players can pay their monthly dues and completely immerse themselves ("live") in the world. For Warcraft wannabe's who make promises of millions to investors but fall short because they were so set on copying every convenient instant gratification handout from WoW they made a game where players can "finish" in a week and get bored at the end of the month.
... seriously people, can we have one @#&$ing game the isnt cheapened and turned into an interactive ad to buy things at a cash shop? Just one? Is it really that much of a burden on you OP to have to actually play the game to get something you want out of it instead of paying to have it delivered to your mailbox?
No, no cash shop. At all. No cosmetics, no pets, no mounts, nothing. Only place cash shops are acceptable is in B2P or F2P games. This is not one of them. Those who 'convert' arent worth the disk space they take up.
The missing "Like" button is a real bummer.
This^ x 9,000.
I loved when you had a cool looking weapon or armor in the game mean you had to work hard for getting tha item as a reward, if we can just buy cool looking stuff, I am afaid the excitment of seeing someone in Rubicite armor for example... will just lose it's admiration. If everyone has special looking armor from buying it in a cash shop it will no longer be special.
No cash shop for in game items--my definition of fluff is different than your definition of fluff/my definition of p2w is different than your definition of p2w, etc.
No server transfers--choose your server very wisely, it will be your home.
No name changes--your reputation is important.
No account transfers. There will be some sort of free trial so why would you even need an account transfer anyway?
These are my opinions. Disagree with them all you like. Don't throw bs hyperbole at me because I don't share your particular belief/idea/conceptions. I want a back-to-the-basics game that Pantheon is shaping up to be. I want Pantheon to be devoid of a number of modern game contrivances that have made newer games unattractive to me. Those things are available in any number of games out there.
And lastly don't stereotype or pigeonhole me while thinking you know me because I've requested some old school features. This is supposed to be a place where we can come together and begin forming the community we want but a couple of you make it damn hard not to throw my hands up, give up hope for a game like Pantheon, and look for the nearest bingo game and prune juice convention.
Manouk said:And I am not adverse to the WOW idea where you could buy a doll of your character (maybe 3D printed?). To make it more than a single POS, perhaps offer it wihtout gear, and micro transactions to buy 3D printed gear pieces to put on your doll with the restriction of only being able to get those items you earned in game(or made and shipped officially from VRI with stamps of authenciticy, etc, signed letter from..some NPC). As you improved it may prrompt repeated purchases of said doll, so you would have more than one- reflecting the progression, I mean...um....like Barbies? Hey, People do! they collect like that some more than others, I mean you also see them on antiques roadshow, so...
I actually like this idea. That would be awesome to have my character 3D printed and shipped to my house :)
Pyde Pyper
Whitedove said:I loved when you had a cool looking weapon or armor in the game mean you had to work hard for getting tha item as a reward, if we can just buy cool looking stuff, I am afaid the excitment of seeing someone in Rubicite armor for example... will just lose it's admiration. If everyone has special looking armor from buying it in a cash shop it will no longer be special.
I'm gonna totally agree with this. I agree with many things said around here but this is something I feel I could have said myself.
When EQ started allowing ornamentations and things of that nature a big part of the sparkle went out the window for me. Suddenly it became it didn't matter you worked so hard to get something you prized, you could look around you and see someone with something that looked exactly what you have and they did not much more if nothing else than pick it up from a trader, or bought from the cash shop.
Part of the game is being compelled to devote energy to getting awesome stuff. While your item may technically have better stats than a crappy stat item, if they both look the same, all its luster is lost.
I used to admire weapons from the planes that I didn't have, gear sets that I knew took a long time to acquire, things that mattered. Then one day, it didn't matter anymore.
Marilee said:No cash shop for in game items--my definition of fluff is different than your definition of fluff/my definition of p2w is different than your definition of p2w, etc.
No server transfers--choose your server very wisely, it will be your home.
No name changes--your reputation is important.
No account transfers. There will be some sort of free trial so why would you even need an account transfer anyway?
These are my opinions. Disagree with them all you like. Don't throw bs hyperbole at me because I don't share your particular belief/idea/conceptions. I want a back-to-the-basics game that Pantheon is shaping up to be. I want Pantheon to be devoid of a number of modern game contrivances that have made newer games unattractive to me. Those things are available in any number of games out there.
And lastly don't stereotype or pigeonhole me while thinking you know me because I've requested some old school features. This is supposed to be a place where we can come together and begin forming the community we want but a couple of you make it damn hard not to throw my hands up, give up hope for a game like Pantheon, and look for the nearest bingo game and prune juice convention.
@Marilee Please don't give up hope. Pantheon is being made with players like you in mind and we need more like you in this community. Don't let a a couple contrary posters ruin your experience here. Don't worry, almost everyone of us here want the same thing as you. And from all we've been told we are gonna get just that. Besides bingo and prune juice suck, you wouldn't like it. :)
Anyway, I'm not sure why we're even talking about this anymore - a cash shop is not something that's up for debate. VR has addressed it in the FAQ and elsewhere. There is even a reply from Kils in this very thread. If it happens at all it will be limited and 5-10 years down the road.
What I was originally going to suggest when I came back into this thread was: if we get the opportunity to buy mechandise, add me to the list of players who would love to buy a 3D printed sculpt of my character. Can that be a thing? :)