Dullahan said:You can definitely autofollow using bot programs, but if there is no autofollow in game, it will make botting more obvious.
To be fair, a single bot is pretty obvious because they will always follow a specified path. And if it's a user-recorded path there's nothing stopping the user from recording two slightly different paths so that it wouldn't look like autofollow anyway. So the purposes behind removing autofollow is relatively easily defeated, and detracts from legitimate play.
I would add myself into the group that's fine with boxing. It's not ideal for most, and defeats the purpose of a grouping game that encourages people to be social etc, BUT I think we've all been in a mmo situation where groups/raids died or never even started due to lacking a certain class or players...
That being said, I am also very much in favor for them making the game and classes more complicated/difficult so there's a real difference between players abilities (not necessarily twitch play). Someone good at twisting, or charming and CC at the same time, the damage dealers who also provide support CC or melee damage dealers off tanking - things that should be difficult to do while boxing.
Feyshtey said:Dullahan said:You can definitely autofollow using bot programs, but if there is no autofollow in game, it will make botting more obvious.
To be fair, a single bot is pretty obvious because they will always follow a specified path. And if it's a user-recorded path there's nothing stopping the user from recording two slightly different paths so that it wouldn't look like autofollow anyway. So the purposes behind removing autofollow is relatively easily defeated, and detracts from legitimate play.
I'm referring to the botting that would be used as alternative to a box or a group mate. In that application, following is very important and recording paths are irrelevant.
Honestly, having boxed in EQ using a variety of different methods (fully automated, semi-automated, manual), the inclusion or exclusion of auto follow does nothing. Maybe in extreme circumstances where you're operating many characters at once, and even then only in a situation where you aren't at a static camp.
I don't think it's a feature worth removing or including on the premise of botting.
I'm beginning to wonder if those commenting have actually seen real botting in mmos. Yes, having the ability to follow is crucial, especially in a game where travel is important. People who bot don't just stop at 1 character like a legit player who abides by the rules. It's usually multiple characters, and even travelling short distances without follow becomes unmanageable.
This is an eternal discussion that I don't think will ever end, but there are some common misconceptions, or maybe deliberate misinformation.
* Boxing has always been around since the early days of EverQuest!
Yes but - there is boxing and boxing. Back in the day people sometimes boxed a second (or even third) character for a variety of reasons, but they literally played those characters on additional computers (boxes), which is where the term comes from. They played two characters on two computers side by side.
Today's trend in multi boxing is to use multicasting software to control 6 (or more) chararacters with one keyboard and mouse, and now we're entering a bit of a grey area. Whether this constitutes automation is a matter of opinion (imo: yes), but the more important question, and ultimately the only one that really matters, is whether it's against the rules. It's up to the game company, in this case VR, to decide whether to allow it.
I think it's clear that there's a difference between the old school "real" boxing, and the modern multicast boxing. While I understand why people do it, I personally don't like it and it really seems to run counter to idea of an MMO, even if convenient. One of the things I'm hoping for with Pantheon is that these kinds of behaviours are curbed so that we can really get closer to the roots of mmo gaming, and for those who don't like that, well there are plenty of mmo's out there where you can box to your heart's content, including EverQuest.
Boxing is a road to hell .
It starts with some good intentions we all already heard .
"This group will bust if we don't find a cleric . I'll bring my box ." , "The experience will be much faster if I bring my off group high level buffer ."
It continues with excuses .
"When it takes too much time to LFG, I box ." , "It's an innocent way to profit from the game when I have just an hour to play ."
And it finishes with a full blown antisocial behaviour where the whole Saint Trinity is boxed or even a full group and the players stop interacting with other players alltogether .
When this generalizes, the MMO degenerates to islands of isolated individuals where all immersion and lore is gone and the players who still don't box are irreversibly chased away because there is nothing for them to interact with anymore .
lutorin said:Boxing is a road to hell .
It starts with some good intentions we all already heard .
"This group will bust if we don't find a cleric . I'll bring my box ." , "The experience will be much faster if I bring my off group high level buffer ."
It continues with excuses .
"When it takes too much time to LFG, I box ." , "It's an innocent way to profit from the game when I have just an hour to play ."
And it finishes with a full blown antisocial behaviour where the whole Saint Trinity is boxed or even a full group and the players stop interacting with other players alltogether .
When this generalizes, the MMO degenerates to islands of isolated individuals where all immersion and lore is gone and the players who still don't box are irreversibly chased away because there is nothing for them to interact with anymore .
Bro you are painting with too broad of strokes.
There are multiple subsets of the boxer type player, they are not all the same nor do all operate within each subset of the group type.
I've been boxing in EQ for 18 years, I still group, even do groups with randoms. It's not a slippery slope or some all or nothing thing.
You don't like it, don't do it, but don't try to ram your personal viewpoint with false equivalency arguments that are not based in fact but based in opinion.
Sunmistress said:lutorin said:Boxing is a road to hell .
It starts with some good intentions we all already heard .
"This group will bust if we don't find a cleric . I'll bring my box ." , "The experience will be much faster if I bring my off group high level buffer ."
It continues with excuses .
"When it takes too much time to LFG, I box ." , "It's an innocent way to profit from the game when I have just an hour to play ."
And it finishes with a full blown antisocial behaviour where the whole Saint Trinity is boxed or even a full group and the players stop interacting with other players alltogether .
When this generalizes, the MMO degenerates to islands of isolated individuals where all immersion and lore is gone and the players who still don't box are irreversibly chased away because there is nothing for them to interact with anymore .
Bro you are painting with too broad of strokes.
There are multiple subsets of the boxer type player, they are not all the same nor do all operate within each subset of the group type.
I've been boxing in EQ for 18 years, I still group, even do groups with randoms. It's not a slippery slope or some all or nothing thing.
You don't like it, don't do it, but don't try to ram your personal viewpoint with false equivalency arguments that are not based in fact but based in opinion.
@Sunmistress: I actually agree with Lutorin on this. While you and many others, as you say, still group etc, there are 10's if not 100's times more that don't. Yes, I have played EQ for 18 years+ too and indeed it is a slippery slope, once on it, hard to get off of it. Unfortunately, due to mal behavior of many, the few like you, who do it right will suffer because of it.
An analogy: I only drive 100 mph when there is no traffic at all on the freeway. But the law is still 65 mph. Is this fair? Laws and rules are put in place not to hurt those that do things right, but to prevent those who abuse the priviledge.
I played Phinigel into the ground, and you can log on to one of EQ's TLP servers today and maybe one in ten groups will contain a boxed character. There's no way to get the numbers but it's still a laughable claim. Also, "10x if not 100x more" (paraphrasing). That is an entire magnitude of difference that only serves to show exactly how baseless of a claim that is.
Phinigal and other TLP are completely different than regular eq servers. Besided that, you're not reading it right. I am not comparing regular players who don't box to those who box,but those who box and group vs those who box and don't group. Enough said
A thought
Is boxing in any regard abit "unfair " to players that cant do it (by any reason of there own)? Will it give to much advantage and if so will it matter? If the player is a decent chap and do it to help others will this mean we have to put up with the bad ones and will it matter ? As i play for fun and comunity i dont box as i think it lessen my experience to get involved in the game but that is my desision. Think Kilsin and the gang has a good opinion on this as they have said before
If a player ruin the play for others they will get a notice.. this should be enough and maybe keepers/guides/GM's will get to enforce/notice this when live. I think the AI they use make boxing hard and even could make it notice a possible boxing and make them target and if its a real player it should not make it deadly but a boxer may not have time to adjust. There will always be people out there trying there best to "win" over the game makers let them try, as long as every one else dont suffer from it.
And i love alt's as the journey is the fun and i hate to delete chars so if u whant to play 1 char just make one we should not need rules for this.
Last they have said there will be no pay to win and the cost is to maintain the game not to make a "huge proffit" (but i hope they make alot as i think they have earned it :)
well thats all from me, box if you like it as long as it dosent lessen my experience or fun or any one else's for that matter.
Durp said:Phinigal and other TLP are completely different than regular eq servers. Besided that, you're not reading it right. I am not comparing regular players who don't box to those who box,but those who box and group vs those who box and don't group. Enough said
The live EQ servers are pretty much dead outside of raiding, and have been for a while. However, you'd be hard pressed to attribute it to boxing. It's more like the content is bad and live EQ has nothing to offer except raiding, and even the raiding is mediocre compared to a lot of other games.
I understand you may not like boxing, but citing false statistics as a basis for it isn't really helping anyone.
Stratoz said:A thought
Is boxing in any regard abit "unfair " to players that cant do it (by any reason of there own)? Will it give to much advantage and if so will it matter?
It isn't fair or unfair, really. Fairness is highly subjective.
It's an advantage, but so is having two functional eyes over someone with one. Will it matter? I don't know. If you feel entitled to a spot in a group and someone refuses to drop their box, it will probably feel like it matters to you, personally. Objectively though? No, it doesn't matter. It's functionally identical to another player playing a separate account.
Adding my 2cents.
I don't mind multiboxing if these restrictions are set in Place.
- No automated boxing software that plays the characters for you, or allows you to control more than one character at the exact same time.
- No botting or anything similar.
- Class and encounters gameplay is difficulty to the point where multiboxing characters with no software is always inferior to what the average player can do, (unless you're a multiboxing god, in that case you should be able to perform decently, but never up to the level of good players).
- Automatic bans with no appeal if any botting or boxing software is found by the game cheat code.
- No autofollow inside dungeons.
Automatic bans are never a good idea. I've never seen an automatic system not throw up false flags and result in innocent bannings.
As far as class and encounter gameplay, that's impossible. With enough time and effort, you can always write a script that can perfectly defeat another script.
Last but not least, talking about cheat programs in a thread about boxing is off topic at best. I really don't understand why people treat these topics as interchangeable. We've already had a dozen threads in the past talking about cheat programs, whether or not they will be allowed, the measures the devs will take, etc.
Liav said:Automatic bans are never a good idea. I've never seen an automatic system not throw up false flags and result in innocent bannings.
As far as class and encounter gameplay, that's impossible. With enough time and effort, you can always write a script that can perfectly defeat another script.
Last but not least, talking about cheat programs in a thread about boxing is off topic at best. I really don't understand why people treat these topics as interchangeable. We've already had a dozen threads in the past talking about cheat programs, whether or not they will be allowed, the measures the devs will take, etc.
Automatic as in when the Game master see it they'll ban you, not a program.
Yes you can write a script but that script gets you banned, as I said above no boxxing or botting software.
I didn't talk about cheat programs, I said "cheat code" to me that's the game anticheating/botting/illegal softaware track device. And I'm pretty sure Kilsin confirmed no botting softaware or scripts or cheats will be allowed.
Honestly, I can't even reply to this topic because I'm pretty sure it's against the forum rules to explain the impracticality of what you're suggesting.
@Liav
Awkward XD
I read your reply before your edit and also replied.