Hieromonk said:...
Understand, most here can afford $300/year for a hobby. It was already noted in an earlier poll, that 75% of the Community here is over the age of 27. (What is the cost of two NFL tickets, parking & beers again..?)
I strongly agree with this. I always found it funny (and a bit hypocritical) how my dad could spend around $300 in a month on golf (sometimes more if he takes trips for it), yet called my $15/month sub a waste of money. (Not to say I don't think he deserves his hobby lol, he works crazy hard for it!) Granted when he would call it a waste of money I was still a child and he was the one paying it lol.
Rachael
Hieromonk said:You can laugh all you want.
I'd bet you, that even at $100 buy-in, or a $75 promotional Digital Download, you would still buy Pantheon and play it anyways..! No matter what. Crack kills.. and once you get a whiff of Pantheon, you are not going to put it down, or do without. Most crack heads will play at any cost. This game has the same sickness as EQ, VRi (& brad) have a chance to capitalize on this, and instead of business raping the community.. invest back into them, with quality content and expanded role play. Fueling the genre.
Pantheon can easily be a success starting out with 125,000 Players on 10 shards, over the first years of release. That is is still Roughly $12 million in box sales, & nearly $1.9 million in monthly subscription revenue. Those are extremely conservative numbers, as we all know there are MILLIONS of WoW refugees whom are all in their Thirties now, that will easily drop $200 on any game that has promis, given the last 10 years of F2P games.
SO laugh.. if 5 years out, Pantheon only has 325k Players..?
Who cares, certainly not Brad & Visionary Realms who are making $60 Million a year. And that is before you even account for the starving and roving mad crowd of WoW refugees, that might hear about about Pantheon & word of mouth takes hold... as they stampede Pantheon.. with additional 600k newbie players. Who coincidentally are now done complaining about the $100 buy-in on the forums, and finally ante up. The market for this game is huge (14 Million WoW players in North America & mostly in their 30s, so even if 5% (600k) of them catch wind of Pantheon, it is enough)
If done right, Pantheon will end up being another 15 Year success story. And with strong multi-year retention, over 10 years would mean nearly a billion in revenues... who is laughing then?
Understand, most here can afford $300/year for a hobby. It was already noted in an earlier poll, that 75% of the Community here is over the age of 27. (What is the cost of two NFL tickets, parking & beers again..?)
The thing is, even if the good people here would totally spend 300 a year or even more, they are a fraction of the people Pantheon would need to get your 325k player. I am sure that if Eve Online had this money barrier you are raising here, they wouldn't have this subscription numbers right now. And frankly, I also don't see people from WoW coming in the hundred thousands. You are putting up hypethical numbers you have no basis for, just your wishful thinking. If people would be so extremely desperate in their current game to come in such numbers you are throwing around, they'd be already here.
If the monthly price is set up too high, people will just back off - even if they could afford it with ease.
Sorry but $100 up front would kill Pantheon. I'm talking massacre type kill, not lethal injection or pillow to the face.
Especially people who haven't actually tried the game. If you think for a second that the kind of people playing WoW are going to put that kind of money up at the door you are even nuttier than you sound.
Dullahan said:Sorry but $100 up front would kill Pantheon. I'm talking massacre type kill, not lethal injection or pillow to the face.
...
It's sad that this is probably very true, I never understood how people could justify spending money on, say a coffee or w/e from a coffee house every single day, but scoff at even a $15/month sub fee.
I have personally always seen MMO's as a reletivly cheap form of entertainment.
Rachael
Raidan said:Bluefyre said:One character would be absolutely dumb. It doesn't provide any benefit to the player or the game world. Sure, if it was a PvP focused game or a dedicated server, then maybe. However Pantheon will focus on PvE and doesn't make any sense to limit this.
One character does provide benefit in a PvE, non-instanced, group focused game as server reputation will matter. And, you'd have a lot less griefers if they knew they'd have to /delete their character and start anew if they had a terrible reputation and their progression was halted because they couldn't find groups. It wouldn't stop boxing though which is what this thread is discussing. Now, the question is, does server reputation matter enough to restrict a player to one character? Probably not unless there was a hardcore ruleset server as Aradune mentioned.
With that said, I wouldn't mind seeing a server that existed where you were originally restricted to one character, and a second character slot could be unlocked by the "progeny" system (once achieving max level or some requirement of progression) and it wouldn't require me to retire my previous. So, you could have 2 characters at that point, and, with each progeny line you could effectively unlock a 3rd, then 4th, then 5th, etc. Would combine the best of both worlds - your reputation would matter more, but you'd ultimately be able to have alts as well.
Stop fooling yourself. If you are an elite player or play a needed class then you can be the biggestjerk on the server and people will still group with you and not think twice
I figured this topic was and will remain a particular hot one. It has been one under heavy scrutiny from both sides in EQ and I don't ever really see everyone coming to a common area with it.
I never boxed until much later in EQ. I've always just been on to read the gripes, complaints and suggestions from the sidelines since there was very few who wanted to find that common ground, and truly see it from both sides in a sense.
I started boxing a little by little as it peaked my interest and I did not have the time to put toward gaming as much due to family, work hours, etc.
I quickly realized I could still accomplish things by myself through paying for more accounts. I've played 6 boxes, 12 and 18 as of late, all with my own hard earned money. I never got into buying/selling through the game and quite honestly hate it. I used my toons to tackle things quicker and more effectively that I wanted to do. I never went after any type of raid progression though.
I've helped many people, power leveled others, geared, shared items, money etc. etc.
I guess my point isn't to brag how great boxers CAN be, but it's to show my side. They can benefit the community. BUT! If the community is healthy and active at all hours, especially mine as I work overnight, I have no problem going solo!
I've seen boxers with bad attitudes and solo players who instigate and cause the drama. I've been trained and harassed for no reason other than I have a lot of toons.
When it comes down to it, it's not that fact that there are boxers or not, it's that the attitude toward other people is so bad. People don't CARE about anyone, anymore!!!
Rachael said:
It's sad that this is probably very true, I never understood how people could justify spending money on, say a coffee or w/e from a coffee house every single day, but scoff at even a $15/month sub fee.
I have personally always seen MMO's as a reletivly cheap form of entertainment.
Rachael
I'd do $15 a month easy but $100 buy in then sub, that along would bring Francus(Boogie) out and start comparing VR to EA.
Basically if we play Hieronmonks game it will cost us $200 per box.
Only 1 character per account.
$50 just to TRY and alternate character.
Another $50 to Keep that character after your 30 day count down.
The game will also be $25 / month Per account.
Look dude. I will be 100% debt free as of June 2016. And while i HAVE the money to spend on a game. I am not going to pay $100 to get an alt in addition to $25 a month, in addition to $200 game fee. etc etc etc. If you had your way about it, this game would only be for those who wanted to spend $1000 a year on a game.
Pantheon should have Premium servers that cost $25 a month, and regular that cost $15 a month. I will pay the $25 a month and pay for the game itself, shoudl be $59.99 to start. maybe $79.99 for a Deluxe edition box.
The idea of having to "get to" a certain level or place etc to get a 2nd character. NO. just NO.
Why don't you take ALL that money you WANT to spend and Pledge several thousand. Not all of us want to spend a $1000 a year on an mmo.
Just pullig random numbers from the rear end isn't helping anything. Pantheon can not be 2x or 3x the price of all other games on the market.
They will have 1 server with a few hundred people playing if they do.
Kalgore said:Stop fooling yourself. If you are an elite player or play a needed class then you can be the biggestjerk on the server and people will still group with you and not think twice
Hardly fooling anyone. Reputation was a big deal on FV. This isn't me pulling opinion out of thin air. I saw it occur on the FV server while I played on it. Many players were ostracized for being *ssholes. Did it stop griefing from guilds locking down content? Obviously not if it was a whole guild of *sshats, but, you better believe if you weren't in a good guild to begin with, and you were trying to join pick-up groups - good luck to you if you had a rep of a ninja looter/kill stealer/terrible player.
And, if you tried to join a good guild after obtaining a terrible rep, even if you were a good player - good luck to you.
And, even if you were in an *ss in an elite guild, that's the type of server infamy that's memorable and I want to experience.
I'll link another thread from Reddit that was discussing the FV server and server rep. Again, not all the servers could be this way or it would defeat the purpose, but, there's a place for roleplay/hardcore rulesets.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/2vhlbn/did_anyone_play_on_everquests_firiona_vie/
@Aradune - I'm glad you did make the FV server. The original experience on FV was a great time and I continued to play on it until I finally quit EQ. I really enjoyed the server.
And @Dullahan, I'd agree with removing the trivial loot code. They had it originally on FV combined with having everything tradeable outside of major quest items/epics to counteract it, but, it was eventually removed. The system was bypassed when it was in place anyhow, so it really served no purpose other than being a nuisance, which we've talked about over on MMORPG plenty.
I two boxed in Vanguard and really only did so when we couldnt find more players. Also i did it on my own without any assistance from macro keyboards or 3rd party programs. There were a hand full of people who I know of who could box an entire group but they were rare.
If the content is tough enough boxing will not come close to pay to win. For me it was not about that at all. Besides my necro could solo more in Vanguard than my two box duo could ever hope to tackle. So could my disciple.
So I am not against it but would always prefer to not have to resort to doing it. Multitasking just means you do two jobs not as well as you could do one.
I must admit I liked the FV server, even with the TLC- I understood it as a way to prevent hogging items as a powerfuill player. If I saw an item I liked or would be an improvement to my current status but could not get because I as too high a level, I just took it in stride and accepted that the thing would be out of my grasp, and perhaps there would come other things that were better or just as good in my adventuring.
Seeking out younger players to contract for certain items did not work out too well for me.
Even the two Dragons most people learned to rain on, Naggy and Vox, became trivial once the levels were raised. There was a barrier put on those two, later, where if you were too high level, you could not even get near them, like if you wanted to try to solo them.
The language barrier was great! and interestingly ( all jokes aside) most half elves were rangers, so, I found myself seeking out rangers to group with initially, or awkwardly joining groups in Qeynos to learn hooman- which I did and in no uncomfortable length of time so I spoke erudite and human by about 3- people didnt care about learning erudite- HA!- but elvish was big because of the Elf/half elf/gnome cities being somewhat close. Once the warrens and Stonbrunt opened up, everyone wante to learn erudite so it worked out.
Raidan said:Kalgore said:Stop fooling yourself. If you are an elite player or play a needed class then you can be the biggestjerk on the server and people will still group with you and not think twice
Hardly fooling anyone. Reputation was a big deal on FV. This isn't me pulling opinion out of thin air. I saw it occur on the FV server while I played on it. Many players were ostracized for being *ssholes. Did it stop griefing from guilds locking down content? Obviously not if it was a whole guild of *sshats, but, you better believe if you weren't in a good guild to begin with, and you were trying to join pick-up groups - good luck to you if you had a rep of a ninja looter/kill stealer/terrible player.
And, if you tried to join a good guild after obtaining a terrible rep, even if you were a good player - good luck to you.
And, even if you were in an *ss in an elite guild, that's the type of server infamy that's memorable and I want to experience.
I'll link another thread from Reddit that was discussing the FV server and server rep. Again, not all the servers could be this way or it would defeat the purpose, but, there's a place for roleplay/hardcore rulesets.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/2vhlbn/did_anyone_play_on_everquests_firiona_vie/
@Aradune - I'm glad you did make the FV server. The original experience on FV was a great time and I continued to play on it until I finally quit EQ. I really enjoyed the server.
And @Dullahan, I'd agree with removing the trivial loot code. They had it originally on FV combined with having everything tradeable outside of major quest items/epics to counteract it, but, it was eventually removed. The system was bypassed when it was in place anyhow, so it really served no purpose other than being a nuisance, which we've talked about over on MMORPG plenty.
People STARTED OVER once the server was able to start doing Nag/Vox and the planes because they had bad reputations and then tried to hide who they had been. To suggest that anybody will group with anyone regardless of their rep is not true.
Rachael said:Dullahan said:Sorry but $100 up front would kill Pantheon. I'm talking massacre type kill, not lethal injection or pillow to the face.
...
It's sad that this is probably very true, I never understood how people could justify spending money on, say a coffee or w/e from a coffee house every single day, but scoff at even a $15/month sub fee.
I have personally always seen MMO's as a reletivly cheap form of entertainment.
Rachael
My wife would get a latte from Starbucks every day for about 5.50, she worked 4 days a week, that is 5.50 x4 x4 or 88 bucks a month. When I pointed out that I could spend 88 bucks a month on games she would throw a fit she stopped complaining about my 45 a month for 3 EQ accounts...
Kilsin said:This subject never ends well and it has been brought up so many times with an official response given each time, discussing this when the answer is already set only leads to arguments.
Typing "Boxing" into the search bar produces these 3 results:
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1952/dual-boxing-the-touchy-subject (Closed)
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2315/no-boxing-allowed (Closed)
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1822/multi-boxing/ (Open)
Our Official Stance:Boxing will be allowed, but the way our characters and abilities are set up it will make it very hard. We will not tolerate cheats, gold farmers or botting programs but having multiple accounts to dual box is perfectly fine.
Glad you are having such a clear stance here. Thanks for that.
Personally i am in an uncommon camp i guess. I do not like huge boxing being done, but i remember how many raids have been saved because someone could log in a cleric, enchanter, bard ect.
Everquest managed to be hard enough that boxing never resulted in a 100% played toon. Depending on the class it was down to about 50%. So a real player always showed superior performance. And it sounds like that is the goal for Pantheon as well.
That being said,.. not only raids, but also groups could stay alive with multiboxing. Having your cleric player log out? Group would disband, unless someone could log in a replacement healer. The group would slow down, but push forward untill a real healer showed up again.
Bottomline: I remember MANY very positive aspects of boxing and i have been boxing for the same reasons myself. I do see the point of players that would rather play 6 toons solo and NOT help others with their boxing skills. That obviously can be a problem. So i do see both sides of the fence. Like so many topics that are neither black or white,.. i am leaning towards the grey side. I think the positive aspects of boxing outweight the negative ones. If opantheon manages to make boxing a toon well enough is hard, then the positive aspects would be even more relevant.
Rattenmann said:Bottomline: I remember MANY very positive aspects of boxing and i have been boxing for the same reasons myself. I do see the point of players that would rather play 6 toons solo and NOT help others with their boxing skills. That obviously can be a problem. So i do see both sides of the fence. Like so many topics that are neither black or white,.. i am leaning towards the grey side. I think the positive aspects of boxing outweight the negative ones. If opantheon manages to make boxing a toon well enough is hard, then the positive aspects would be even more relevant.
My boxing experience started by boxing my dads bard or my brothers cleric with my monk to help out on epics, an item camp or to do some light AA'ing when they were not on. Early EQ up until mid GoD grouping was easy to get at almost all levels. OoW to SSD you could easily get groups in the higher end. To me boxing didn't become a huge "must do" for people until the numbers died down. As long as population stays healthy there wont be a need for boxing. But if it comes to it i have no problem dual boxing a pocket healer etc.
"Whaa???? Who took this thread out of the mothballs!" might be your first reaction and you might be right. This is a touchy subject. However, here's my 2-coppers after having played p99 for a month.
P99 has severe restrictions on multiboxing and I was surprised at how good they are at enforcing it. You break the rule and you get a ban, IP ban etc and your account is removed. So, if you had this high level character, PL-ing a newbie, gbye high-level char.
While multiple characters are allowed and even multiple accounts, you can't play them at the same time from the same ip-address. (Exceptions can be made for spouses, siblings etc)
So then why am I writing all this? There are quite a few posters in this (and other likewise) threads who say boxing cannot be prevented. P99 is proof that it can.
I am thoroughly enjoying my time on P99. (for this and a good many other reasons) While characters still can be PL'd, it has to be an effort of at least two people. Not just one guy who has one druid with a healthy DS PLing 5 of his own newbies on 5 different accounts at a time and levelling from 1 to 50 in a day and then selling that account. (In EQ you can easily level a character from 1 to 90-95 in under 1 day).
Even though Kilsin said it's going to be super hard to box, history has shown that people will find a way to do exactly what everyone thought was hard or impossible. Getting to level 50 in EQ was considered to be a near impossible thing when the game launched. As soon as someone says something can't be done, people will rise up to that challenge and prove that statement wrong.
Again, just my 2-cp.
I have two accounts in EverQuest 2. As does my husband. Originally, we used the second accounts as guild bank mules, because your bank space was limited in the early years and there was no official guild bank/harvest depot/spell scroll boxes/collection item chests/etc. Later, because we're roleplayers, they became characters to use in stories. My favorite thing to do for a while was play my "sister" characters at the same time before people realized it was the same player behind the keyboard arguing with herself. (Playing with yourself again, I see.)
Dual and Multi-boxing is challenging and can be both a boon or a bane, depending on how each individual player uses it. Whatever Pantheon decides to do about it, is fine. But if they allow it, I'll probably have a second account for banking and roleplaying purposes.
Durp said:"Whaa???? Who took this thread out of the mothballs!" might be your first reaction and you might be right. This is a touchy subject. However, here's my 2-coppers after having played p99 for a month.
P99 has severe restrictions on multiboxing and I was surprised at how good they are at enforcing it. You break the rule and you get a ban, IP ban etc and your account is removed. So, if you had this high level character, PL-ing a newbie, gbye high-level char.
While multiple characters are allowed and even multiple accounts, you can't play them at the same time from the same ip-address. (Exceptions can be made for spouses, siblings etc)
So then why am I writing all this? There are quite a few posters in this (and other likewise) threads who say boxing cannot be prevented. P99 is proof that it can.
I am thoroughly enjoying my time on P99. (for this and a good many other reasons) While characters still can be PL'd, it has to be an effort of at least two people. Not just one guy who has one druid with a healthy DS PLing 5 of his own newbies on 5 different accounts at a time and levelling from 1 to 50 in a day and then selling that account. (In EQ you can easily level a character from 1 to 90-95 in under 1 day).
Even though Kilsin said it's going to be super hard to box, history has shown that people will find a way to do exactly what everyone thought was hard or impossible. Getting to level 50 in EQ was considered to be a near impossible thing when the game launched. As soon as someone says something can't be done, people will rise up to that challenge and prove that statement wrong.
Again, just my 2-cp.
Speaking as someone who leveled to 50 before EQ even had been out for 5 months I don't remember feeling it was impossible.
Even if you were to have the P99 restrictions, there are ways around it, just like there are on P99. People do box on P99, and not all of them get banned. It's not as flagrant and pervasive as boxers on EQ1, but they are there. Just like all the RMT that goes on over there, they say doesn't.
The best way to prevent boxing imo is what Kilsin said which is complicated gameplay, coupled with banning for usage of 3rd party software. Also a solid population and a decent community help diminish the "necessity" to box.
It's still going to happen no matter what prevention method is used, but it won't be prolific if that's done.
Though I don't care either way, I'll box a healer or chanter if I have to, to keep my gameplay moving along. If that means I have to use a proxy IP on a 2nd computer whatever.
Fairchild said: Love resurrecting old threads, thanks Durp! I definitely plan on at least two boxing (well two accounts to start anyhow) at launch, probably not a tank And healer and using two PC's and two hands..
Why 2 PCs? I'd think doing it from a single PC to be a bit more efficient?
Sunmistress said:Why 2 PCs? I'd think doing it from a single PC to be a bit more efficient?
Not knowing how multi-boxing typically works I imagine with two PCs he would be able to just hit both keyboard's keys at the same time for skills instead of having to presumably alt+tab between characters on a single box.
Hi all :)
Just tossing in a thumbs up for keeping auto follow out of pantheon.
Even outside the realm of boxing, I'd consider /follow being a command that turns the Pantheon game itself into a bot program that controls your intended movement for you hehe :3.
Making it harder to run bot/box armies around the world is an added bonus ;]