I am curious as to how P1999 is littered with them considering the server ruleset doesn't allow multiboxing, without an IP exception from their dev team. I played there briefly and never ran into boxers or attempted to box.
When it comes to boxing I don't actually know if they are not. In the short time I played p1999 I probably reported 5 people for doing it. I don't know if they actually were, but it looked like it. I don't know what the stance is on it, but a lot of them were pretty obvious about it. They would have dumb matching names like tweedledee and tweedledumb. I never talked to them just sent my report in and moved on to somewhere else.
This is their stance, directly from their site, which is why i asked:
"4. You may not have more than one client running per real life person playing on Project 1999 (Boxing).
There is no 'boxing' on Project 1999 servers. Boxing is defined as having more than one client running from a single computer, or having more than one client running per person in the same household on different computers. Project 1999 has an IP block on its servers to prevent players from boxing. You may apply for an IP exemption if you have more than one person in your household wanting to play by following the instructions on this forum:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25
Violation of this rule will result in disciplinary action, and you may lose the account(s) involved.
The exception to this rule is having one client running for Project 1999 Red PvP as well as one for Project 1999 Blue. This is allowed."
Theoretically you shouldn't be able to box there unless you are using a VPN, etc. which is possible, but most people won't go through the hassle.
I don't think P1999 is a good example. It's one server that goes years beyond the original progression timeline before they go to a new expansion.
Krixus said:I happen to think pocket clarity/rez/sow/thorns/haste is ftw.
That's actually what made me start boxing in EQ1, i played a wizard and it got tiring returning from timorous deep for clarity during quad kiting, so i made a chanter to drag along for Clarity. Then it became a money maker since i could leave him in common areas and KEI/Haste for donations while i was raiding, etc.
Reht said:Krixus said:I happen to think pocket clarity/rez/sow/thorns/haste is ftw.
That's actually what made me start boxing in EQ1, i played a wizard and it got tiring returning from timorous deep for clarity during quad kiting, so i made a chanter to drag along for Clarity. Then it became a money maker since i could leave him in common areas and KEI/Haste for donations while i was raiding, etc.
Plus, if I'm going to roll a serious alt, it kicks butt to have them on a seperate account for more reasons than just multi boxing.
Reht said:Krixus said:I happen to think pocket clarity/rez/sow/thorns/haste is ftw.
That's actually what made me start boxing in EQ1, i played a wizard and it got tiring returning from timorous deep for clarity during quad kiting, so i made a chanter to drag along for Clarity. Then it became a money maker since i could leave him in common areas and KEI/Haste for donations while i was raiding, etc.
Funny, my Enchanter on EQ was my personal pocket buff bot. Then I discovered I liked playing the Enchanter more, ended up being the #1 best geared Enchanter on Xegony before I left, even had #1 HP game-wide as an ENC for a little bit (few days, I think, but still!). HP counts when you're the silk class getting pounded on 24/7.
Anyway, to be relevant to the topic, if I wasn't allowed to box I would had never had that main change.
Again my stint on p1999 was short, but I saw a lot that appeared to be boxing and reported them, this was in the sub 30 level range so maybe they never get that far. If pantheon wants to make a specific server that doesn't allow boxing or have a general EULA that prohibits it or better yet making a boxing server they can all join, then that's fine by me. If boxing is allowable then allow it in the game without having to buy more accounts, let me log in with as many characters as i want, let me form parties with myself and then I can have the true MMO experience all boxers are dreaming for, where I don't have to rely on anyone. Boxers want to take advantage of the system with a pay to win model, plain and simple, either eliminate that advantage or don't allow it.
geatz said:Again my stint on p1999 was short, but I saw a lot that appeared to be boxing and reported them, this was in the sub 30 level range so maybe they never get that far. If pantheon wants to make a specific server that doesn't allow boxing or have a general EULA that prohibits it or better yet making a boxing server they can all join, then that's fine by me. If boxing is allowable then allow it in the game without having to buy more accounts, let me log in with as many characters as i want, let me form parties with myself and then I can have the true MMO experience all boxers are dreaming for, where I don't have to rely on anyone. Boxers want to take advantage of the system with a pay to win model, plain and simple, either eliminate that advantage or don't allow it.
Strawman alert.
You have seen the majority of people responding to this that support boxing explain exactly why they do it. It isnt the dream to never need anyone. Its to have that second account so in the chance you cant find a group you arent screwed or because your guild needs a different toon and the best way to level one up is to box it. You are never going to "WIN" the game by boxing raiding will be 2 hard not to mention you need dozens of people in order to pull it off. It isnt an advantage in the slightest its no different then if I always duoed with a bard and we leveled together.
geatz said:Again my stint on p1999 was short, but I saw a lot that appeared to be boxing and reported them, this was in the sub 30 level range so maybe they never get that far. If pantheon wants to make a specific server that doesn't allow boxing or have a general EULA that prohibits it or better yet making a boxing server they can all join, then that's fine by me. If boxing is allowable then allow it in the game without having to buy more accounts, let me log in with as many characters as i want, let me form parties with myself and then I can have the true MMO experience all boxers are dreaming for, where I don't have to rely on anyone. Boxers want to take advantage of the system with a pay to win model, plain and simple, either eliminate that advantage or don't allow it.
I'm sure boxers holding contested camps, farming stuff for real cash dollars, ambushing players in PvP and gloating after it, what not, actually does happen.
But the thing is ... every boxer I've encountered in over a decade of EQ have actually been of the more friendly variety. I've known a few. When I was playing a Ranger this one guy over in Taiwan who inspired me to actually become an Enchanter I used to pull for his bot army and basically I tried to train the group every pull and this guy was a real legitimate phenom he could box so well. We were way out of the way from everybody else and not causing a ruckus (deep in Halls of Honor, if you know HoH, it wasn't like a real inviting tropical environment).
Another guy, a retired union carpenter in his 60's, he ONLY botted 6 characters when we weren't raiding. He didn't cause anyone grief. He might have got his characters killed all the time getting from Point A to Point B but he left everyone alone and did his own thing. And whenever someone wanted a group he'd invite them over and kick one of his own characters out.
Then there's me, my friends are offline, I log their lazy butts in, and score them tons of experience. lol, slackers.
I know I'm not going to change your thought on the whole thing and I'm not trying to but I still wanted to say something nonetheless, perhaps more food for thought.
Good day, Sir.
Lets be honest here: boxing is an advantage. It allows you to do what you couldn't do with only one account. Its also an advantage that you pay for. There is no getting around these facts.
Its great to see members of this community claim to only box for lack of a better option, but I'd wager most people do it to get ahead.
There is also no getting around the fact that the ability to be self-sufficient in a game designed to be heavily multiplayer is going to have some degree of impact on the rest of the community. Yes, there will always be things you can't multibox, but for everything else, it means less potential groups to some degree.
Kalgore said:Its to have that second account so in the chance you cant find a group you arent screwed or because your guild needs a different toon and the best way to level one up is to box it.
And that is the definition of an advantage, it circumvents the game's design of needing others. If you ever can't do something, but can do it via boxing then it is an advantage (edit: not sure why we keep using the word advantage when "cheating" is just as applicable) and should not be allowed. Pretty straightforward.
On the other hand, enforcing that is extremely difficult and I wouldn't really want devs blowing time trying to tackle it. If it walks like a duck...
Dullahan said:Lets be honest here: boxing is an advantage. It allows you to do what you couldn't do with only one account. Its also an advantage that you pay for. There is no getting around these facts.
Its great to see members of this community claim to only box for lack of a better option, but I'd wager most people do it to get ahead.
There is also no getting around the fact that the ability to be self-sufficient in a game designed to be heavily multiplayer is going to have some degree of impact on the rest of the community. Yes, there will always be things you can't multibox, but for everything else, it means less potential groups to some degree.
That is the point though man, boxing isn't efficient, it is much better to join a real group than multi-box, people only do it to get things done that that can't do solo when there are no groups going so they don't sit and stare at the grass and then log out. If a guy doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether he is playing one character of boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
If a player doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether they are playing one character or boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
So groups will not lose out because some dude is boxing over in the corner trying to farm a drop or get his main some exp, if that was me, I would jump at the chance to drop my annoying boxed characters and play my main with real people, plus is boring not having anyone to talk to! :)
Kilsin said:Dullahan said:Lets be honest here: boxing is an advantage. It allows you to do what you couldn't do with only one account. Its also an advantage that you pay for. There is no getting around these facts.
Its great to see members of this community claim to only box for lack of a better option, but I'd wager most people do it to get ahead.
There is also no getting around the fact that the ability to be self-sufficient in a game designed to be heavily multiplayer is going to have some degree of impact on the rest of the community. Yes, there will always be things you can't multibox, but for everything else, it means less potential groups to some degree.
That is the point though man, boxing isn't efficient, it is much better to join a real group than multi-box, people only do it to get things done that that can't do solo when there are no groups going so they don't sit and stare at the grass and then log out. If a guy doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether he is playing one character of boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
If a player doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether they are playing one character or boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
So groups will not lose out because some dude is boxing over in the corner trying to farm a drop or get his main some exp, if that was me, I would jump at the chance to drop my annoying boxed characters and play my main with real people, plus is boring not having anyone to talk to! :)
Thst depends on the person you are talking to :) Very well said and agree with everything
And when a 2 boxer gets to max level and can't do anything on their own and has no friends because they didn't share camps or kill stole(stealed?) nobody will group with them. Just like a single account player who does the same thing.
And when a 2 boxer gets to max level and groups with friends and guildmates and fills a needed game and social role, everybody will group with them. Just like a single account player who does the same thing.
This idea that people who multi box are more likely to be jerks doesn't hold any water. I could easily make an argument that it's the opposite.
And when you go link dead on the boat and get eaten by a shark, you'll be singing a different tune when my pocket cleric gives you a full rez.
Kilsin said:Dullahan said:Lets be honest here: boxing is an advantage. It allows you to do what you couldn't do with only one account. Its also an advantage that you pay for. There is no getting around these facts.
Its great to see members of this community claim to only box for lack of a better option, but I'd wager most people do it to get ahead.
There is also no getting around the fact that the ability to be self-sufficient in a game designed to be heavily multiplayer is going to have some degree of impact on the rest of the community. Yes, there will always be things you can't multibox, but for everything else, it means less potential groups to some degree.
That is the point though man, boxing isn't efficient, it is much better to join a real group than multi-box, people only do it to get things done that that can't do solo when there are no groups going so they don't sit and stare at the grass and then log out. If a guy doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether he is playing one character of boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
If a player doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether they are playing one character or boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
So groups will not lose out because some dude is boxing over in the corner trying to farm a drop or get his main some exp, if that was me, I would jump at the chance to drop my annoying boxed characters and play my main with real people, plus is boring not having anyone to talk to! :)
Exactly. It's an option. People are still going to solo or have time when groups aren't readily available or friends aren't online, and it won't be more efficient.
It's not cheating unless it's against the rules, regardless of your personal philosophy on the matter. Is it an advantage? In most cases yes, not necessarily in all, and not nearly as much as some of you are claiming. I think most people use EQ as their main reason they are for or against boxing. There are two different sets of conditions that exist for the two types of servers that lend themselves to making boxing more advantageous in EQ than it truly is in a lot of other games, conditions that will probably never exist in another game again:
Live - Mercenaries! With the introduction of mercenaries in Seeds of Destruction, any two boxer immediately became almost a full group, which led many two boxers to add a third box to fill out there group. Unless they add mercenaries to Pantheon, this is not going to happen! Most people aren't good enough, with or without software, to effectively box a full group of characters. You will probably see very few 4-6 boxers in Pantheon, just like you almost never see them in any game outside of EQ1 and rarely did before SoD. Mercenaries made boxing downright appealing, you could field your own full group with a lot less work, not having to worry about wasting time finding a group, dealing with AFKs, bad players, etc. You always had a tank and/or a healer at your disposal. Prior to Mercenaries, boxing was not near as much of a power gain as it was after. Almost no one complained of boxing prior to 2008, and quite frankly a few years after until it became harder to find a group and SOE/DBG refused to merge servers again.
TLP - The unfortunate situation where they share the same database as live and the subsequent pet changes on Live servers making incredibly overpowered in TLP. You barely have to play any of your boxes with a mage army (which is the main boxing situation that everyone, including normal boxers, have with multiboxing on the TLP servers), just fire them up, summon pet and then have them all send their pet in. NPCs and named NPCs melted. Kronos, which yet again, something i doubt will ever end up in Pantheon exascerbated the boxing situation because boxers were easily able to farm the best gear, which is classic EQ is almost all tradeable, and sell them for krono which allowed these folks to pay and expend their boxing beyond what most people would be willing to pay out of pocket monthly (not even going to discuss the RMT aspect of it).
If the game is built right and the content is challenging, Pantheon will not have the same issues with boxing that EQ does.
Kilsin said:That is the point though man, boxing isn't efficient, it is much better to join a real group than multi-box, people only do it to get things done that that can't do solo when there are no groups going so they don't sit and stare at the grass and then log out. If a guy doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether he is playing one character of boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
If a player doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether they are playing one character or boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
So groups will not lose out because some dude is boxing over in the corner trying to farm a drop or get his main some exp, if that was me, I would jump at the chance to drop my annoying boxed characters and play my main with real people, plus is boring not having anyone to talk to! :)
I think what it will come down to is how worthwhile being in a full group is. Yes, boxing isn't efficient in some situations, but when you compare the time it takes to achieve a given objective when you have to roll against other players versus doing it alone with boxed characters, I'd say boxing is more efficient every time. That is the kicker.
If the experience gained in a full group and the quality of rewards scale up drastically, then yes, boxing will be less efficient and have a much smaller impact. Those are the big qualifiers though. While I think its a little artificial, the experience bonus for being in a large/full group should be noticeable.
In EQ, soloing or boxing a char or two meant maximum efficiency because despite the group bonus, exp ended up being faster when split fewer ways. It also meant no worrying about looking for groups or having to roll on drops, two things which increase your efficiency and ability to progress.
Those things have the be tweaked appropriately to encourage grouping.
Reht said:It's not cheating unless it's against the rules, regardless of your personal philosophy on the matter. Is it an advantage? In most cases yes, not necessarily in all, and not nearly as much as some of you are claiming. I think most people use EQ as their main reason they are for or against boxing. There are two different sets of conditions that exist for the two types of servers that lend themselves to making boxing more advantageous in EQ than it truly is in a lot of other games, conditions that will probably never exist in another game again:
Live - Mercenaries! With the introduction of mercenaries in Seeds of Destruction, any two boxer immediately became almost a full group, which led many two boxers to add a third box to fill out there group. Unless they add mercenaries to Pantheon, this is not going to happen! Most people aren't good enough, with or without software, to effectively box a full group of characters. You will probably see very few 4-6 boxers in Pantheon, just like you almost never see them in any game outside of EQ1 and rarely did before SoD. Mercenaries made boxing downright appealing, you could field your own full group with a lot less work, not having to worry about wasting time finding a group, dealing with AFKs, bad players, etc. You always had a tank and/or a healer at your disposal. Prior to Mercenaries, boxing was not near as much of a power gain as it was after. Almost no one complained of boxing prior to 2008, and quite frankly a few years after until it became harder to find a group and SOE/DBG refused to merge servers again.
TLP - The unfortunate situation where they share the same database as live and the subsequent pet changes on Live servers making incredibly overpowered in TLP. You barely have to play any of your boxes with a mage army (which is the main boxing situation that everyone, including normal boxers, have with multiboxing on the TLP servers), just fire them up, summon pet and then have them all send their pet in. NPCs and named NPCs melted. Kronos, which yet again, something i doubt will ever end up in Pantheon exascerbated the boxing situation because boxers were easily able to farm the best gear, which is classic EQ is almost all tradeable, and sell them for krono which allowed these folks to pay and expend their boxing beyond what most people would be willing to pay out of pocket monthly (not even going to discuss the RMT aspect of it).
If the game is built right and the content is challenging, Pantheon will not have the same issues with boxing that EQ does.
I think this is spot on.
Kalgore said:geatz said:Again my stint on p1999 was short, but I saw a lot that appeared to be boxing and reported them, this was in the sub 30 level range so maybe they never get that far. If pantheon wants to make a specific server that doesn't allow boxing or have a general EULA that prohibits it or better yet making a boxing server they can all join, then that's fine by me. If boxing is allowable then allow it in the game without having to buy more accounts, let me log in with as many characters as i want, let me form parties with myself and then I can have the true MMO experience all boxers are dreaming for, where I don't have to rely on anyone. Boxers want to take advantage of the system with a pay to win model, plain and simple, either eliminate that advantage or don't allow it.
Strawman alert.
Man some people need to read this site and learn from it.
Dullahan said:Kilsin said:That is the point though man, boxing isn't efficient, it is much better to join a real group than multi-box, people only do it to get things done that that can't do solo when there are no groups going so they don't sit and stare at the grass and then log out. If a guy doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether he is playing one character of boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
If a player doesn't want to be social and group up, it won't matter whether they are playing one character or boxing 10, you will always find people like that, 90% of boxers will drop their boxed group to join a real group if they are boxing to benefit their main character, which the majority are.
So groups will not lose out because some dude is boxing over in the corner trying to farm a drop or get his main some exp, if that was me, I would jump at the chance to drop my annoying boxed characters and play my main with real people, plus is boring not having anyone to talk to! :)I think what it will come down to is how worthwhile being in a full group is. Yes, boxing isn't efficient in some situations, but when you compare the time it takes to achieve a given objective when you have to roll against other players versus doing it alone with boxed characters, I'd say boxing is more efficient every time. That is the kicker.
If the experience gained in a full group and the quality of rewards scale up drastically, then yes, boxing will be less efficient and have a much smaller impact. Those are the big qualifiers though. While I think its a little artificial, the experience bonus for being in a large/full group should be noticeable.
In EQ, soloing or boxing a char or two meant maximum efficiency because despite the group bonus, exp ended up being faster when split fewer ways. It also meant no worrying about looking for groups or having to roll on drops, two things which increase your efficiency and ability to progress.
Those things have the be tweaked appropriately to encourage grouping.
Wow, first off I have no idea what happened to my format and spelling! Same thing happened to another work document and email I created earlier! I should have read it a 3rd time through before clicking submit! lol
Just in reply to your first paragraph, it may seem that way but when your boxing 2-3 toons that are auto attacking and auto following, the time it takes to get them in position, initiate auto-attack, cast the odd spell/ability while switching screens and actually kill the mob compared to a real group, it is much less efficient, times that by 100+ mobs in a small grind session and you're talking huge loss of productivity, it is only viable if I hate other human beings or cannot find someone else to play with online, both instances are a minority percent and make up the largest group of boxers (can't find anyone online).
I understand the loot theory too but really, if you slow the kills down, the loot slows down too, so while it would be an option to grind when there are no groups around, once one appears, the chance of your drop happening are increased a lot just by the sheer speed the real human group can take mobs down, so it all balances itself out in the end and we are talking a minority here.
If the characters are casting spells and playing without the account owner managing them manually, then it is cheating and they are using an auto bot program which will be a bannable offence in Pantheon. This is usually very easy to detect for players and staff, this is also the method many gold farmers/sellers use so it makes them easily identifiable, plus with players reports etc. we will be able to detect and ban anyone using automated programs to box with.
If our game gets overrun with boxing players (which I can almost say with certainty, it won't, knowing how our characters and combat works and being a boxer myself), then we have failed in creating a game that should promote player interaction, communication and engagement in a social environment.
I really wouldn't worry yourselves about it, there will be the odd boxer, the odd douche, the odd troll, the odd screaming kid, the odd griefer/trainer but the majority will be mature, friendly and social members of our community that will want to group up and interact with you all, don't let the minority dictate how the majority think or play! :)
Elrandir said:Hieromonk said:And with a possible One Character per account in Pantheon, means most people boxing are not doing it for grouping, but for crafting or trading, etc.
You keep repeating this and it's a completely baseless claim. The closest I've seen anyone from VRi coming to this is stating the possibility of a special rules set server where this could be true. In fact, one of the pledge rewards is an additional character slot.
That is because you are new, and have not seen podcasts, or read the earlier discussion on this topic, overthe last 1.5 years.
Secondly, I don't care what Visionary Realms says, I only care about what they can do, and then do.. MY SUGGESTIONS are to help facilitate a correct and proper MMORPG. Not let Pantheon turn into an online game show for children who raid their parents credit card.
ONE Character, ONE Account is how Pantheon should be. Care to debate it..?
Oddly, I already gave a simple solution to their entire problem here about Multi-boxing, that takes the least amount of effort and solves this. If You do not want to discuss it, or incapable of understanding a suggestion that was designed specific for Visionary Realms problems, then I can not help you. Though, I can explain it to you and educate you on why it is a solution and/or why Multi-boxing can be a problem.