Kilsin said:I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?
Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?
Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?
I'm more of a minimalist, and, I would be aganist them. I would agree with Reht that I haven't seen the use or lack of use of GTT invoke as much hostility/elitism as failure to use DPS meters, etc., but, it is an added convenience that allows the player to pay minimize the need to pay attention. It also helps boxers as it provides the audio triggers for a second (third) computer versus having to watch closely in chat. Having alerts when roots, messes break, etc. Those extra few seconds can be a difference between a wipe or not.
It wouldn't be a dealbreaker either way, but, if they were implemented, they really would need to be defaulted to be /on, with a toggleable /off option - as they are beneficial.
And, I also wanted to say - /agree Krixus
*Edit: And, I know this is just subjective, but even if it is a feature I don't like, if it improves my character even in the slightest, I always feel the obligation to use it at that point. I would keep it /on to know I would be on a level playing field even if I wasn't receiving judgement from others if I didn't use it.
Kilsin said:Anyway, this is a topic that no one will ever fully agree on, some like it, some hate it, and our stance is that we will allow combat parses and combat chat text but we do not think aggro and dps meters are the right fit for our game or community.
Thank you, Visionary Realms.
Raidan said:I'm more of a minimalist, and, I would be aganist them. I would agree with Reht that I haven't seen the use or lack of use of GTT invoke as much hostility/elitism as failure to use DPS meters, etc., but, it is an added convenience that allows the player to pay minimize the need to pay attention.
You could argue that the combat chat box gives the player that same convenience of not having to watch combat (or vise versa). The fact of the matter is, its harder to tell what is going on around you in a 3d game than it is in real life. The day when you are able to perceive what is happening in a game as well as you could in real life is the day I stop using things like GTT (or reading my chat box for that matter).
Dullahan said:
You could argue that the combat chat box gives the player that same convenience of not having to watch combat (or vise versa). The fact of the matter is, its harder to tell what is going on around you in a 3d game than it is in real life. The day when you are able to perceive what is happening in a game as well as you could in real life is the day I stop using things like GTT (or reading my chat box for that matter).
We'll disagree here as we both obviously have our preferences. I'd argue that you wouldn't be correct as a textbox would draw your focus away from the combat/screen and shift to the textbox, if only for a split second and you're only using one sense - sight. You couldn't use the not having to watch comparison unless mobs never moved in combat either through taunts, agro, root parks breaking, etc. Or, if they didn't provide tells like the glowing hands in EQ when about to cast a spell.
By use of audio triggers - you engage two senses - sight/hearing. They allow you to watch the combat and still know what to do by hearing the trigger you set up for specific things. It potentially makes you more efficient if even by a few seconds (which, depending on the class, can be less/more important). At the very least, it gives the player an extra step of protection to remind them of something they needed to pay attention to.
Again, like I said, if they were implemented, it wouldn't be a dealbreaker either way - I used them once they were available in EQ, it would just be a feature I'd feel I had to use if it does exist due to the slight advantage it provides.
Well, I don't think anyone is asking for such a thing be implemented into the game, its about addons that highlight information already available in the client.
Still, it is becoming more and more commonplace for unique sounds and visuals to accompany actions to make whats going on more apparent in games without the use of text. In EQ on the other hand, so many spells and abilities looked the same or had no visual queue at all.
I just don't see the difference between having the game client tell me that the rogue behind me just popped Duelist and having a textToSpeech that says "Soandso used duelist." Maybe its the PvP motivation showing through, but that kind of thing is incredibly important and continually staring at my chat box makes for a dull game.
Dullahan said:Still, it is becoming more and more commonplace for unique sounds and visuals to accompany actions to make whats going on more apparent in games without the use of text. In EQ on the other hand, so many spells and abilities looked the same or had no visual queue at all.
I just don't see the difference between having the game client tell me that the rogue behind me just popped Duelist and having a textToSpeech that says "Soandso used duelist." Maybe its the PvP motivation showing through, but that kind of thing is incredibly important and continually staring at my chat box makes for a dull game.
Your first paragraph I'd agree 100% and I'm not aganist unique integrated audio/visual cues. Example: I'd like mobs/players etc. to have unique movements, sounds, visuals for spells/abilities and not just have to stare at a textbox to read "So and so is casting heal." Think the heal sound versus buff sound versus DD sound in EQ. I learned those and knew when to /bash. I'd be good with expanding/improving on those cues.
My point was that I wouldn't want to have a "ping" sound to alert me of something that I needed to do, or something that was about to happen, etc. versus something that was integrated in game that I would need to pay attention to. Outside of feeling that I had to use it at that point, there are other advantages of it that I'd rather not support (such with boxing). Really minor differences on preference either way, and admittely, I'm looking at it through a PvE lense versus PvP, so I'm not as familiar with the advantages from that perspective. Perhaps having that option on a PvP server versus a Pve?
Like I said though, not a dealbreaker for me, and I'm not on a personal crusade aganist them - I was just sharing a different perspective for Kilsin.
Since third party programs or addons that give extra information or create new functions not present in the base game won't be allowed, Is VR taking a harsh stance (banning) on their creation and use?
I ask this because if a stance is taken from the first moment, players won't event try to develop such things.
jpedrote said:Since third party programs or addons that give extra information or create new functions not present in the base game won't be allowed, Is VR taking a harsh stance (banning) on their creation and use?
I ask this because if a stance is taken from the first moment, players won't event try to develop such things.
They won't be able to as we control the information that is shared from our servers to the clients, they can't make one if we don't give them the game information required to populate them.
Kilsin said:I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?
Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?
Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?
Very simply put, from my personal standpoint, is that audio is accepted and visual rejected because audio allows me to use my primary sense--sight--to remain focused on the game. I feel like I'm "watching the world" rather than sitting watching text or watching flashing neon lights or little red bars.
If I'm walking down a dark alley at night and I hear a sound, I turn to look. To me, that's what auditory triggers are--something that is like a burgler breaking a window. Versus having to sit and watch the burglar alarm instead of watching my new movie I just bought. One immerses me and one breaks immersion.
That being said, I don't use auditory programs because for me PERSONALLY, I find the sounds annoying and immersion-breaking (unless it's a game like VG or WoW where I feel like I'm watching bars anyway, instead of the world). Auditory yanks me out of immersion, but only when immersion exists.
I'd like the world to offer both visual and auditory cues, rather than being forced to use third party applications with annoying ding-dong sounds or flashing red lights with bazooka horns going off. Yet if these things make you better, then they, again, become MANDATORY particularly in a game where skill and reputation are paramount. Therein, in my personal opinion, lies the rub. By allowing it, you force it upon everyone else the ones who don't use it fall behind.
The main differences is "gametxttriggers" auto react to scripted text ie auto quaff potion , auto cure and so on. A dps meter is simply reading the combat txt log and doing what I can do on a calculator 15 minutes later.
I have no problem with audio or visual that are based on the combat text. The argument , can be said that the person still has to pay attention and listen/see and react. The problem's start when things like cure bot become a thing.
Amris said:Kilsin said:I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?
Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?
Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?
Very simply put, from my personal standpoint, is that audio is accepted and visual rejected because audio allows me to use my primary sense--sight--to remain focused on the game. I feel like I'm "watching the world" rather than sitting watching text or watching flashing neon lights or little red bars.
If I'm walking down a dark alley at night and I hear a sound, I turn to look. To me, that's what auditory triggers are--something that is like a burgler breaking a window. Versus having to sit and watch the burglar alarm instead of watching my new movie I just bought. One immerses me and one breaks immersion.
That being said, I don't use auditory programs because for me PERSONALLY, I find the sounds annoying and immersion-breaking (unless it's a game like VG or WoW where I feel like I'm watching bars anyway, instead of the world). Auditory yanks me out of immersion, but only when immersion exists.
I'd like the world to offer both visual and auditory cues, rather than being forced to use third party applications with annoying ding-dong sounds or flashing red lights with bazooka horns going off. Yet if these things make you better, then they, again, become MANDATORY particularly in a game where skill and reputation are paramount. Therein, in my personal opinion, lies the rub. By allowing it, you force it upon everyone else the ones who don't use it fall behind.
Using your method, though, the exact same thing could be said about using your visual sense to see a flash of light down a dark alley, it would also make you look even if you had headphones on and were immersed in music, a phone call or a podcast etc. it would catch your attention and need further investigation as you would need to identify and react quickly if it was a potential threat.
So they both do the exact same thing just with different senses, which is why it is strange that people accept one but not the other, I am personally against both as they are both aids that give assistance and take away from the base gameplay, attention to your surroundings and requiring players to develop a sense of their own to "feel" how their aggro is doing, how much they are healing, how much DPS they can safely use without a program or notification (visual or audible) telling them. :)
@Kilsin
Thank you for the reply :)
Kilsin said:Using your method, though, the exact same thing could be said about using your visual sense to see a flash of light down a dark alley, it would also make you look even if you had headphones on and were immersed in music, a phone call or a podcast etc. it would catch your attention and need further investigation as you would need to identify and react quickly if it was a potential threat.
So they both do the exact same thing just with different senses, which is why it is strange that people accept one but not the other, I am personally against both as they are both aids that give assistance and take away from the base gameplay, attention to your surroundings and requiring players to develop a sense of their own to "feel" how their aggro is doing, how much they are healing, how much DPS they can safely use without a program or notification (visual or audible) telling them. :)
The problem lies on the obviousness of the “alert" and not so much on it being visual or sound based.
If for example the sound queue is a fire alarm that goes off whenever a boss uses a dangerous ability, to me that’s the same as having a visual warning saying “get the **** out” because the chances of you not noticing it are very slim.
I hope Pantheon has none of thisnonsense, and emphasizes paying attention to the game world.
I have some suggestions of what could be done to alleviate the need of such tools.
Crowd control ending/breaking – having subtle sound warnings when roots/mezzes and other types of cc break or end. The breaking/ending sound would be the same as the application sound.
Using wow’s root sound as an example. This would play every time you land a root, or every time a root breaks or ends. Because it uses the same sound it’s easy to implement, this could be done for all types of Crowd control spells.
Boss abilities - The boss says a small voice acted line, or the music changes, or he does a noticeable casting or swing animation.
GTT/GINA just improved upon an already existing in-game functionality added by the EQ1 devs (audiotriggers) in a game where there were NO visual indicators for what was going to happen beyond spending your time watching your UI for mechanic indicator instead of the boss mob itself: watching text box for emotes or watching your buff bar for a debuff, etc.
Fact this is a game and not real life. There are tells you get in real life you don’t from a game. The fear in your opponent’s eye or the growing look of hate. In real life (wont get into it) but I have been able to tell when I was about to be sucker punched. Or that, that guy in the corner has something to prove and it going to attack me because I’m the biggest target in the room.
I never had a problem with aggro bars because of this. Sometimes you need tells you would not get in game that you would in real life. Having a boss kill the main healer because he had to mana dump to keep a wizard alive who happen to crit to many times in a row. IMO is not a bad thing to know. Now if VR has managed to add tells so we can just watch the combat and get the tells we need that way. I’m fine with that. Maybe casters when they crit has a larger spell partial effect. Maybe mobs will start looking in the direction of the person they want to attack next.
IMO not all add ons are bad, much like adding a map to the game after you have explored everything. Real life explorers make maps and don’t re-explore the same area. They use their compass and walk in a straight line to where the best fish are. They know where to go get water to drink and scaling when you get a map is smarter then not having one at all.
The scene: Newbie starting city/yard. The players: 1. Uber high level chanter. 2. Newbie chanter.
*1 stops and buffs newbies*
2. "thank you! um, what does this do? and do you have any tips on how I can kill that beetle? it's too hard for me but I need its shell for someone in town"
1. "it makes you move faster. Best to find some others and form a group have someone else hit the beetle while you cast on the beetle. You're a caster? what class are you?
2. " I am an enchanter!"
1. "Get used to deing"
True conversation.
I hate to spound like an old fogey but that was pretty much the trigger for when a monster broke mez when mez faded naturally. Of course, all had eyes open to NOT break mez on what the chanter was targeting and those that did were admonished.
Often seeing the chanters health drop quickly was a sign that something broke mez and it needed the main fighter do something. Rangers would often draw away and root-park with a silent nod to the chanter while the cleric let the warrior get close to death to spot heal the chanter first, and the mage eyed the cleric to see IF a monster needed temporary OT'ing for being drawn to the cleric for such a big heal on the chanter while the mage kept nuking the original target sporadically so as to not draw agro by feel until the main fighter started hitting the orignal monster again.
I think a greater question would be: What in game mechanics can be added that would make you not want or need add ons?
Add ons are not just about making the game auto play. Look at WoW and the UI changes that came from players. Making it one of the best UIs of any MMO. I’m not talking about the quest trackers or the heal bots. Lots of little things Blizzard did not think about. Like when riding a mount, clicking on a skill or spell would not dismount you. So, you needed to take extra steps to attack a mob that didn’t add anything to the game. A player made the add on first let you auto dismount when you used a skill on a mob. Blizzard liked it and added it to their standard UI. This helped Blizzard make an awesome UI.
So, you don’t want add on to help game play. To keep it real. How will you keep it real? Like healers keeping track of who is poisoned? Can a tell be added to the game that makes an avatar hunch over and have green aura happen around them? For aggro bars, can mobs make verbal taunts to who they hate the most. When someone gets close to catching up to the tanks level of aggro the mob could also start insulting them as well?
If you are going to take away add on, thought needs to be given how to make the game flow without them. How you will make sure quality of life UI updates happen as they drive off gamers as fast as bad combat, bad story or anything else. If playing a UI feels cumbersome. People will add it to their bucket of things that bug them about Pantheon. Get that bucket full people will leave. The UI team needs to be on top of player’s feedback on what needs to be added for quality of life. Like auto dismount when you click a skill.
Debuffs showing on group health bars will solve that problem. Its been done before, and its not some addon taking up screen space. I literally don't like addons, and having to keep track of two or three of them, taking my focus away from my role as a wizzie/nuker. I don't want to be the target of some dps meter..where I didn't cast as fast as the druid next to me. That's not the point of the game, and shouldn't be. The point and the goal is everyone works as a team to take that boss down..or whatever the objective is. Tired of the addons, and the elitism that comes from..well you didn't do as good as me therefore you "suck" attitude. That's not fun...
Kilsin said:Using your method, though, the exact same thing could be said about using your visual sense to see a flash of light down a dark alley, it would also make you look even if you had headphones on and were immersed in music, a phone call or a podcast etc. it would catch your attention and need further investigation as you would need to identify and react quickly if it was a potential threat.
So they both do the exact same thing just with different senses, which is why it is strange that people accept one but not the other, I am personally against both as they are both aids that give assistance and take away from the base gameplay, attention to your surroundings and requiring players to develop a sense of their own to "feel" how their aggro is doing, how much they are healing, how much DPS they can safely use without a program or notification (visual or audible) telling them. :)
Right, my point is only which one breaks immersion more, a visual or auditory experience. For the majority, a visual one will be most disruptive.
I don't like ANY third party application except as it might make my UI prettier, or more compact, etc. If you all said, "we will take every effort possible to block ALL third party applications" I would probably fangirl squeal. :p
jpedrote said:@Kilsin
Thank you for the reply :)
Kilsin said:Using your method, though, the exact same thing could be said about using your visual sense to see a flash of light down a dark alley, it would also make you look even if you had headphones on and were immersed in music, a phone call or a podcast etc. it would catch your attention and need further investigation as you would need to identify and react quickly if it was a potential threat.
So they both do the exact same thing just with different senses, which is why it is strange that people accept one but not the other, I am personally against both as they are both aids that give assistance and take away from the base gameplay, attention to your surroundings and requiring players to develop a sense of their own to "feel" how their aggro is doing, how much they are healing, how much DPS they can safely use without a program or notification (visual or audible) telling them. :)The problem lies on the obviousness of the “alert" and not so much on it being visual or sound based.
If for example the sound queue is a fire alarm that goes off whenever a boss uses a dangerous ability, to me that’s the same as having a visual warning saying “get the **** out” because the chances of you not noticing it are very slim.
I hope Pantheon has none of thisnonsense, and emphasizes paying attention to the game world.
I have some suggestions of what could be done to alleviate the need of such tools.
Crowd control ending/breaking – having subtle sound warnings when roots/mezzes and other types of cc break or end. The breaking/ending sound would be the same as the application sound.
Using wow’s root sound as an example. This would play every time you land a root, or every time a root breaks or ends. Because it uses the same sound it’s easy to implement, this could be done for all types of Crowd control spells.
Boss abilities - The boss says a small voice acted line, or the music changes, or he does a noticeable casting or swing animation.
I think subtly is key, in VG we had some rare sound cues from named mobs but it was mainly seeing a visual symbol above their head, watching them do a specific emote/action or reading the immersive text in chat when they yelled something to know to act but this isn't really what we are talking about, this thread is discussing 3rd party add-ons like DPS meters, Aggro meters and Audio cues to which I am against.
I would definitely love to see the things I described above from VG implemented into some of our mobs/content but I would not like to allow any 3rd party programs to have access to the game for anything, visual or audible.
The audio triggers are still automatically reading a line of text and giving a warning/notification of something that you may have otherwise missed if you were not paying attention, the mere fact that it exists allows the player to relax and not focus on those things knowing an audio trigger warning will tell them, so it is essentially making the game easier and one less thing to worry about, and I thought this community was all about avoiding those types of "easy-mode" features, if we allow these it could open the doors to all kinds of other programs having a legitimate excuse to be allowed also, DPS meters included which is why I brought it up in the first place, you can't allow one and not the other as they are both functions done automatically by a program, not the player using their own senses and situational awareness, which many games are missing these days.
Amris said:Kilsin said:Using your method, though, the exact same thing could be said about using your visual sense to see a flash of light down a dark alley, it would also make you look even if you had headphones on and were immersed in music, a phone call or a podcast etc. it would catch your attention and need further investigation as you would need to identify and react quickly if it was a potential threat.
So they both do the exact same thing just with different senses, which is why it is strange that people accept one but not the other, I am personally against both as they are both aids that give assistance and take away from the base gameplay, attention to your surroundings and requiring players to develop a sense of their own to "feel" how their aggro is doing, how much they are healing, how much DPS they can safely use without a program or notification (visual or audible) telling them. :)Right, my point is only which one breaks immersion more, a visual or auditory experience. For the majority, a visual one will be most disruptive.
I don't like ANY third party application except as it might make my UI prettier, or more compact, etc. If you all said, "we will take every effort possible to block ALL third party applications" I would probably fangirl squeal. :p
It doesn't matter, though, immersion is subjective to each person, the fact of the matter is whether it is an audio or visual trigger it is still a 3rd party program automating something that a player would have to otherwise manage themselves, if I know a sound alert will warn me if something happens, I no longer need to pay attention to that thing, I can now focus on something else and just rely on this automated program to read text and tell me when I need to act.
They are both functions done automatically by a program, not the player using their own senses and situational awareness, which many games are missing these days and something I thought our community wanted us to bring back. ;)
Kilsin said:
They are both functions done automatically by a program, not the player using their own senses and situational awareness, which many games are missing these days and something I thought our community wanted us to bring back. ;)
The problem is how do you make advanced scripted events rather than simple tank and spank events using text indicators without them? There is a reason why EQ added them natively to their game. Personally, I have no problem with not having a audiotrigger parser as long as events aren't too overly scripted to the point where we end up playing "UItheon" - spending more time focused on text boxes than the fight, like EQ has become (or would be without using these advanced audiotrigger programs). The flip side is that you can use visual indicators. However it isn't difficult to overdo it on visual indicators (red circles, fire on the ground, etc. on top of spell effects) to the point that you really can't see what's going on like WoW/Rift/etc. My choice would be EQ-style raid mechanic indicators rather than WoW's etc.
Kilsin said:I think subtly is key, in VG we had some rare sound cues from named mobs but it was mainly seeing a visual symbol above their head, watching them do a specific emote/action or reading the immersive text in chat when they yelled something to know to act but this isn't really what we are talking about, this thread is discussing 3rd party add-ons like DPS meters, Aggro meters and Audio cues to which I am against.
I would definitely love to see the things I described above from VG implemented into some of our mobs/content but I would not like to allow any 3rd party programs to have access to the game for anything, visual or audible.The audio triggers are still automatically reading a line of text and giving a warning/notification of something that you may have otherwise missed if you were not paying attention, the mere fact that it exists allows the player to relax and not focus on those things knowing an audio trigger warning will tell them, so it is essentially making the game easier and one less thing to worry about, and I thought this community was all about avoiding those types of "easy-mode" features, if we allow these it could open the doors to all kinds of other programs having a legitimate excuse to be allowed also, DPS meters included which is why I brought it up in the first place, you can't allow one and not the other as they are both functions done automatically by a program, not the player using their own senses and situational awareness, which many games are missing these days.
Completely agree, I don't want to see any type of 3rd party programs or addons in Pantheon I hate them with a burning passion!
I wasn’t arguing in favour of 3rd party addons, my suggestion where more directed at things that can be implement in the base game by you guys, so players don’t feel the need for addons or 3rd party programs.
Kilsin said:It doesn't matter, though, immersion is subjective to each person, the fact of the matter is whether it is an audio or visual trigger it is still a 3rd party program automating something that a player would have to otherwise manage themselves, if I know a sound alert will warn me if something happens, I no longer need to pay attention to that thing, I can now focus on something else and just rely on this automated program to read text and tell me when I need to act.
They are both functions done automatically by a program, not the player using their own senses and situational awareness, which many games are missing these days and something I thought our community wanted us to bring back. ;)
I have argued vociferously against things like Healbot, aggro meters, and the like. So yeah, I wouldn't want those things. IF they have to be there, then.. auditory.
I loathed, loathed, loathed Healbot. All I did was stare at hitbars. Then they had huge circles on the ground so you'd know where not to stand... and stuff like that.... then aggro meters and other stuff. I didn't even like the "target circles" on the ground in EQ.
So we're on the same exact page. I was NOT arguing for third party apps, and especially not for ones that make the game easier. They always become "use it or get left behind" and I despise that in cases where it makes me more involved in my UI than my world...
I know this thread has been beat to death, but since logs will for sure be in the game (regardless of what is ultimately in the logs), this would be a nice quality-of-life addition:
In-game ability to configure the maximum log file size.
In-game ability to have the log file automatically archived (then create a new one) when the maximum file size is reached.
(Optionally) In-Game ability to start a new log for each new day)
:)
@Reht
The best way to allow the creation of complex encounters without forcing the use of 3rd party programs and addons on players, is by making the bosses animations (swing/attacks/casting) noticeable, telegraphing dangerous attacks this way is awesome.
How I hope attacks are not telegraphed, I despise the “LOOK this attack is lading right here move” type of telegraphing that tells you exactly where everything is going to land.
