Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Third Party Add-ons

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    • 96 posts
    February 10, 2016 9:06 PM PST

    Reht said:

    Dps meters have led to a certain amount of elitist attitudes, which really started during WoW and have followed to most successive games that have in-game dps meters.  EQ1 has that on live to a certain, but much lesser, extent; it's used more of a tool to verify that players are performing within acceptable limits (yes there is e-peen waving, but nothing like wow), at least at the top end raiding guild level, which you have to have when raid mechanics include DPS checks.  Parsers were around for a long time in EQ, before most people were even aware of them, well before WoW was released and they didn't cause many issues.

    Audiotrigger programs do not foster that kind of animosity unless players are incapable of performing emote based mechanics and don't use either in-game audiotriggers, GTT or GINA (just talking EQ here).    

    If you think it breaks immersion, don't use them.  I couldn't care less if you don't them, but many of us feel that they enhance our gameplay or gaming experience; allowing me to have them isn't going to ruin your experience unless it leads me to calling you out, which i don't do, so please don't limit my game experiece because you don't like them.

     

    It personally doesn't matter to me either way, what eventually happens because I'm not emotionally vested into either argument. I just feel a certain way about dps meters and how I've fell into the pit of basing everything I do on those numbers (which I hate).

    I respect your view on such things and I certainly don't think people using audiotriggers would affect anyone else's game play or experience as a whole.

    • 194 posts
    February 10, 2016 9:09 PM PST

    Reht said:  

    If you think it breaks immersion, don't use them.  I couldn't care less if you don't them, but many of us feel that they enhance our gameplay or gaming experience; allowing me to have them isn't going to ruin your experience unless it leads me to calling you out, which i don't do, so please don't limit my game experiece because you don't like them.

     

    I didn't say anything about immersion, but I could make a very convincing case about how other people using them effects my gaming experience.

    If (and this may be a bit of a stretch because, like I said, I never used GTT and I never had any issues) the use of programs like GTT and GINA leads to better in-game performance, that increased level of performance is what the hardest content is going to be designed around.  And if that's the case, now my gaming experience (how managable the most challenging content is) has been directly impacted by the use of such software.

     


    This post was edited by Elrandir at February 10, 2016 9:10 PM PST
    • 1434 posts
    February 10, 2016 10:42 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Dullahan said:

    I can tell you I'll be making a GamTextTriggers type of application for Pantheon if someone doesn't create a good one first. Besides parsing damage, I love being able to play sounds or have TextToSpeech notifying me when certain things happen. I found such programs to really help me focus on the game more than worrying about constantly reading my chat boxes. For instance, I had triggers that notified me of everything from when people said my name to when my root broke. I actually enjoy MMOs less when I don't have such addons.

    I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?

    Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?

    Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?

    I think the main difference between GamText and a DPS meter is that GamTextTriggers is sort of highlighting more important things that are already present. A dps meter is a little more in depth in that it actually does math on your log and displays it. Not personally against either, though I only really used dps meter to help determine the better of two weapons or to make sure everyone is awake during a raid.

    I personally like a bit of both. Mostly audio because its easier than reading (lol). Really important things have both. On P99 I had a GamTextTrigger .ini for all major hostile lvl 49+ disciplines, damage and debuff spells in the game. Of course, I played on a PvP server and knowing the instant you were under attack made a big difference. On PvE servers, I ran far less triggers.

    When it comes to HUD with DPS meters, I never used it. I just keep the app running in the background and tab to it once in a while. I'm just not that concerned about either my own, or anyone elses dps, healing or aggro.

    Triggers don't really automate anything in that they don't do anything for you in the game itself and don't even notify you of anything you can't already see. Like I said, they just highlight the most important things so you don't have to sift through combat chat or in the event you do not notice particular animations or spell effects. In EQ, large battles would cause your chat windows to spike with text and particle effects would often fill your entire screen, even on minimal settings. GamText made sense of the chaos.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at February 10, 2016 10:55 PM PST
    • 2130 posts
    February 11, 2016 12:07 AM PST

    The elitism argument is strange. Here's how I see it.

    Without DPS meters:

    • I invite a DPS to the group and notice no significant impact on the speed in which things die. Either someone is AFK, or the DPS we invited sucks. Either way, they get kicked.
    • I invite a DPS and inspect their gear and see that they have no idea how to gear properly for their class. They're stacking AGI when the best way to maximize your performance is to stack a different stat. They get interrogated about their gear choices, possibly kicked depending on the difficulty of the content.
    • I invite a Rogue and they fail to position themselves properly to Backstab or use other positional requirement abilities. They get interrogated, or they get kicked.

    With DPS meters:

    • I have a number that tells me if you are doing your job properly. If you're not, you get interrogated or kicked.

    I think having numbers available is a pretty arbitrary thing to direct criticism at. There are numerous other outlets by which players will have their performance judged, and they will be judged. Having numbers available just expedites the process.

    Audio triggers, same thing. Audio triggers require a line of text to read in order to trigger. The information is available either way, but an audio trigger is just an alternative way of providing the same information. Also worth nothing, and this is important. Audio triggers are majorly helpful for visually impaired players.


    This post was edited by Liav at February 11, 2016 12:08 AM PST
    • 83 posts
    February 11, 2016 12:41 AM PST

    or you could, you know try and help that player out in a friendly manner so he/she will perform better next time, and maybe even get a little more fun out of their game,

    but that would interfere with the numbers and we can't have that can we? :)

     

     

     

    ps. Don't take this post to seriously.

    • 563 posts
    February 11, 2016 12:50 AM PST

    Liav said:

    ...

    Also worth noting, and this is important. Audio triggers are majorly helpful for visually impaired players.

    ...

    This is a VERY valid point that I think warrants consideration. Great arguement for the inclusion of such a feature if for nothing else then to help people that may need it.

    Similarly I have heard of some games that allow the user the modify the colour pallet of certain effect so that people with colour blindness are able to see them better.

     

    Rachael


    This post was edited by Rachael at February 11, 2016 12:51 AM PST
    • 2130 posts
    February 11, 2016 1:02 AM PST

    Zlambit said:

    or you could, you know try and help that player out in a friendly manner so he/she will perform better next time, and maybe even get a little more fun out of their game,

    but that would interfere with the numbers and we can't have that can we? :)

    ps. Don't take this post to seriously.

    Well, this is why I added the caveat of "depending on the difficulty of the content". I'm more than willing to help people out, but that only goes so far. In general if we're about to do something that is complex or challenging, it's a reasonable expectation that everyone is up to a certain standard of knowledge of game mechanics. If we're grinding in Crushbone, that's pretty different.

    • 9115 posts
    February 11, 2016 2:18 AM PST

    Dullahan said:

    Kilsin said:

    Dullahan said:

    I can tell you I'll be making a GamTextTriggers type of application for Pantheon if someone doesn't create a good one first. Besides parsing damage, I love being able to play sounds or have TextToSpeech notifying me when certain things happen. I found such programs to really help me focus on the game more than worrying about constantly reading my chat boxes. For instance, I had triggers that notified me of everything from when people said my name to when my root broke. I actually enjoy MMOs less when I don't have such addons.

    I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?

    Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?

    Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?

    I think the main difference between GamText and a DPS meter is that GamTextTriggers is sort of highlighting more important things that are already present. A dps meter is a little more in depth in that it actually does math on your log and displays it. Not personally against either, though I only really used dps meter to help determine the better of two weapons or to make sure everyone is awake during a raid.

    I personally like a bit of both. Mostly audio because its easier than reading (lol). Really important things have both. On P99 I had a GamTextTrigger .ini for all major hostile lvl 49+ disciplines, damage and debuff spells in the game. Of course, I played on a PvP server and knowing the instant you were under attack made a big difference. On PvE servers, I ran far less triggers.

    When it comes to HUD with DPS meters, I never used it. I just keep the app running in the background and tab to it once in a while. I'm just not that concerned about either my own, or anyone elses dps, healing or aggro.

    Triggers don't really automate anything in that they don't do anything for you in the game itself and don't even notify you of anything you can't already see. Like I said, they just highlight the most important things so you don't have to sift through combat chat or in the event you do not notice particular animations or spell effects. In EQ, large battles would cause your chat windows to spike with text and particle effects would often fill your entire screen, even on minimal settings. GamText made sense of the chaos.

    Yeah, nice, I have never used GTT and only learned of it a couple of years ago and even thought I raid at a high level and min/max I never saw the need to use it other than to make things easier for me by automatically telling me when something happens rather than being aware and anticipating it or reacting to it naturally, I was also wary of them being in Australian and dealing with lag and around 250-350 server ping, how would that affect GTT, would I get a delayed audio notification or would it notify me before I even saw anything appear? lol

    I have nothing against them of course, I just see too much of a similarity between meters and GTT, so it's interesting when this discussion comes up to see how people react differently to them both.

    That being said, I personally like parses and being able to log my info and being a guild and raid leader, I also like to know other peoples performance and numbers to know how to build a raid, get the best out of my groups and help people improve but I think the difference I am seeing and hearing here is that with myself and my guild, even though we raided at a high level we always had time to stop and help the little guy, the new players, the person dressed in completely wrong gear and stats and give them a friendly helping hand or some helpful advice so they could become better themselves, instead of this dismissive elitist attitude of - come with the right gear, hit the right numbers or get lost - which I can understand to some degree but there are much nicer ways to go about it.

    I think even without aggro and dps meters or even GTTs we will still see elitist guilds and players in Pantheon, it is something that sadly can't be avoided but I think by making it more of a manual process rather than installing it into UIs and having it there in your face all the time, we can minimise a bit of that behaviour and the rest will be up to the players to just avoid those types of players/guilds if it annoys them.

    I didn't mean for this post to be so long but it is an interesting subject, thanks for the replies everyone :)

    • 9115 posts
    February 11, 2016 2:25 AM PST

    Liav said:

    Zlambit said:

    or you could, you know try and help that player out in a friendly manner so he/she will perform better next time, and maybe even get a little more fun out of their game,

    but that would interfere with the numbers and we can't have that can we? :)

    ps. Don't take this post to seriously.

    Well, this is why I added the caveat of "depending on the difficulty of the content". I'm more than willing to help people out, but that only goes so far. In general if we're about to do something that is complex or challenging, it's a reasonable expectation that everyone is up to a certain standard of knowledge of game mechanics. If we're grinding in Crushbone, that's pretty different.

    I agree, it also depends in what type of scenario you are in whether this happens or not, an elite guild would expect the best, a casual guild would be a lot more friendly and forgiving and not expect you to perform to numbers and have the best gear, this is the case in any competitive game, MMORPGs included.

    Even though I love parses, min-maxing and raiding at a high level I feel that not having these things made even easier by implementing them or allowing them to be installed into our UI would help keep some of this mentality away from the majority of the community and allow the guilds and players who do enjoy it to do so via external parses, we have been doing it for years and it really isn't that much of a hassle, it also promotes guild discussions on external guild sites by posting parses and discussing tactics etc.

    Anyway, this is a topic that no one will ever fully agree on, some like it, some hate it, and our stance is that we will allow combat parses and combat chat text but we do not think aggro and dps meters are the right fit for our game or community.

    • 96 posts
    February 11, 2016 2:30 AM PST

    Kil,

    I agree that elitists will always exist. They will be there at the start and dominate the content and they will be both loved and hated depending. I've always preferred the kinder way as you said. Help each other improve etc. I mean when it comes down to it, even with a DPS meter, there are things that may not be taken into account on how the player is doing. The DPS meter COULD be a bad judge of performance. I've always used one in every game that has had them. I just feel like it's a redundant loop and I get tunnel vision on those numbers. It's also a letdown when you don't like where your numbers are. IDK maybe it's just me.

     

    • 610 posts
    February 11, 2016 5:29 AM PST

    Zlambit said:

    or you could, you know try and help that player out in a friendly manner so he/she will perform better next time, and maybe even get a little more fun out of their game,

    but that would interfere with the numbers and we can't have that can we? :)

     

     

     

    ps. Don't take this post to seriously.

    This here is truth :P

     

    • 130 posts
    February 11, 2016 5:45 AM PST

    Audio triggers are helpful.   Never used GTT, Gina, etc I used EQ's in-game audio triggers when they became available, worked just fine for me.

    Also if you can log your screen output someone, somewhere is going to build a parser for DPS, heals, etc even if Pantheon doesn't innately provide that function.  Can't prevent it unless you disable log files.

    • 9115 posts
    February 11, 2016 6:08 AM PST

    Vade said:

    Audio triggers are helpful.   Never used GTT, Gina, etc I used EQ's in-game audio triggers when they became available, worked just fine for me.

    Also if you can log your screen output someone, somewhere is going to build a parser for DPS, heals, etc even if Pantheon doesn't innately provide that function.  Can't prevent it unless you disable log files.

    Yes, which is fine, we will allow parsing but we just don't want to have it linked, automated and right in your face in game, we think it takes away from what the game is all about, this way guilds and players are fine to use external parsers to get extra combat information and better themselves while the rest of the community can play as if it doesn't exists.

    • 71 posts
    February 11, 2016 7:11 AM PST

    Kilsin said: I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?

    Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?

    Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?

    This is why I'm personally against both. If any kind of software, parser, etc is doing something/providing information for you that the base game does not then it is in essence plain old cheating and should not be tolerated nor allowed.

    Easier said than done, but it's why I'm a strong advocate for hiding and blocking out as much "behind-the-scenes" info as possible. Can't stop it all from happening, but we can certainly try and/or make it extremely difficult.


    This post was edited by picks86 at February 11, 2016 7:12 AM PST
    • 428 posts
    February 11, 2016 7:48 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Dullahan said:

    Kilsin said:

    Dullahan said:

    I can tell you I'll be making a GamTextTriggers type of application for Pantheon if someone doesn't create a good one first. Besides parsing damage, I love being able to play sounds or have TextToSpeech notifying me when certain things happen. I found such programs to really help me focus on the game more than worrying about constantly reading my chat boxes. For instance, I had triggers that notified me of everything from when people said my name to when my root broke. I actually enjoy MMOs less when I don't have such addons.

    I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?

    Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?

    Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?

    I think the main difference between GamText and a DPS meter is that GamTextTriggers is sort of highlighting more important things that are already present. A dps meter is a little more in depth in that it actually does math on your log and displays it. Not personally against either, though I only really used dps meter to help determine the better of two weapons or to make sure everyone is awake during a raid.

    I personally like a bit of both. Mostly audio because its easier than reading (lol). Really important things have both. On P99 I had a GamTextTrigger .ini for all major hostile lvl 49+ disciplines, damage and debuff spells in the game. Of course, I played on a PvP server and knowing the instant you were under attack made a big difference. On PvE servers, I ran far less triggers.

    When it comes to HUD with DPS meters, I never used it. I just keep the app running in the background and tab to it once in a while. I'm just not that concerned about either my own, or anyone elses dps, healing or aggro.

    Triggers don't really automate anything in that they don't do anything for you in the game itself and don't even notify you of anything you can't already see. Like I said, they just highlight the most important things so you don't have to sift through combat chat or in the event you do not notice particular animations or spell effects. In EQ, large battles would cause your chat windows to spike with text and particle effects would often fill your entire screen, even on minimal settings. GamText made sense of the chaos.

    Yeah, nice, I have never used GTT and only learned of it a couple of years ago and even thought I raid at a high level and min/max I never saw the need to use it other than to make things easier for me by automatically telling me when something happens rather than being aware and anticipating it or reacting to it naturally, I was also wary of them being in Australian and dealing with lag and around 250-350 server ping, how would that affect GTT, would I get a delayed audio notification or would it notify me before I even saw anything appear? lol

    I have nothing against them of course, I just see too much of a similarity between meters and GTT, so it's interesting when this discussion comes up to see how people react differently to them both.

    That being said, I personally like parses and being able to log my info and being a guild and raid leader, I also like to know other peoples performance and numbers to know how to build a raid, get the best out of my groups and help people improve but I think the difference I am seeing and hearing here is that with myself and my guild, even though we raided at a high level we always had time to stop and help the little guy, the new players, the person dressed in completely wrong gear and stats and give them a friendly helping hand or some helpful advice so they could become better themselves, instead of this dismissive elitist attitude of - come with the right gear, hit the right numbers or get lost - which I can understand to some degree but there are much nicer ways to go about it.

    I think even without aggro and dps meters or even GTTs we will still see elitist guilds and players in Pantheon, it is something that sadly can't be avoided but I think by making it more of a manual process rather than installing it into UIs and having it there in your face all the time, we can minimise a bit of that behaviour and the rest will be up to the players to just avoid those types of players/guilds if it annoys them.

    I didn't mean for this post to be so long but it is an interesting subject, thanks for the replies everyone :)

     

    Ding Ding even without it you will have the elite guilds.  They will question you and interview you about your class how best to do this or that.  The Meter just made it easier but not impossible 

    • 428 posts
    February 11, 2016 7:49 AM PST

    Also they can only Block out so much.  

    • 671 posts
    February 11, 2016 8:21 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Dullahan said:

    I can tell you I'll be making a GamTextTriggers type of application for Pantheon if someone doesn't create a good one first. Besides parsing damage, I love being able to play sounds or have TextToSpeech notifying me when certain things happen. I found such programs to really help me focus on the game more than worrying about constantly reading my chat boxes. For instance, I had triggers that notified me of everything from when people said my name to when my root broke. I actually enjoy MMOs less when I don't have such addons.

    I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?

    Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?

    Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?

     

    Kilsin, it all comes down to in-game perceptual awarness of your character & the environment, in combat..!

    Pantheon is not a COMBAT game, it is a MMORPG. And combat is not the main reason (try FPS please)for playing, it is playing a Character in the Role of a Cleric, or of a hermit Wizard, etc. And part of playing that Role... is knowing that role. And when you become proficient at that role, and find Others to group with, you then expand on your Role (becoming a group member) even more.

    Also, knowing your Role is a growing process, that never ends...  as each new encounter brings up new situations and scenarios and you won't always have the same people around you... or the same equipment/spells, so you Character's Role may change once again..!

     

     

     

     

    You can not place a meter on who is playing their Role to the best of their abilities. It is like saying who is playing the best note in a song...

    ie: Your entire evening and Guild Raid was saved, when 2h into the raid, and after a long battle... the entire guild held up on a small cavern. Mending and resting the entire guild was about to get wiped out, if it was not for the quick eye of one of your Enchanters.. who happen to have the right spell up.. to mind freeze the 2 Massive Spiders decending from above. That none seen, or pick up on tracking. Single person saved a 2h raid. Anything afterwards...  is all attributed back to that perceptional aware Enchanter.

    It does not matter that later on, a freak Rogue shows insane DPS...  because he is only playing his Role as a Rogue. Just like it was the Role of ther Rogues to sneak ahead and disarm floor traps, & pick locks, etc.

     

    If you are good, you will know it.

    How well you are playing your Character (at any given time), is not going to be found on a meter somewhere..  (it is post battle meta-data, if you truely need the info, you can use a calculator).

     

     

     

     

    • 1434 posts
    February 11, 2016 9:38 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Yeah, nice, I have never used GTT and only learned of it a couple of years ago and even thought I raid at a high level and min/max I never saw the need to use it other than to make things easier for me by automatically telling me when something happens rather than being aware and anticipating it or reacting to it naturally, I was also wary of them being in Australian and dealing with lag and around 250-350 server ping, how would that affect GTT, would I get a delayed audio notification or would it notify me before I even saw anything appear? lol

    I have nothing against them of course, I just see too much of a similarity between meters and GTT, so it's interesting when this discussion comes up to see how people react differently to them both.

    That being said, I personally like parses and being able to log my info and being a guild and raid leader, I also like to know other peoples performance and numbers to know how to build a raid, get the best out of my groups and help people improve but I think the difference I am seeing and hearing here is that with myself and my guild, even though we raided at a high level we always had time to stop and help the little guy, the new players, the person dressed in completely wrong gear and stats and give them a friendly helping hand or some helpful advice so they could become better themselves, instead of this dismissive elitist attitude of - come with the right gear, hit the right numbers or get lost - which I can understand to some degree but there are much nicer ways to go about it.

    I think even without aggro and dps meters or even GTTs we will still see elitist guilds and players in Pantheon, it is something that sadly can't be avoided but I think by making it more of a manual process rather than installing it into UIs and having it there in your face all the time, we can minimise a bit of that behaviour and the rest will be up to the players to just avoid those types of players/guilds if it annoys them.

    I didn't mean for this post to be so long but it is an interesting subject, thanks for the replies everyone :)

    Your ping doesn't effect a program like GTT as its entirely dependent on your ping in game. If there is delay in your client, then theres a delay in your logs, but once something occurs in your client GTT parses it in real time. In other words, theres no further delay beyond the normal server delay. It may even be a little more useful to someone with a little delay to help combat latency spikes that cause rubber banding, animation bugs and other speed ups and slow downs in the client related to lag.

    • 1714 posts
    February 11, 2016 10:30 AM PST

    I find this whole DPS meter conversation to be ridiculous, and scary. Why in the world are people kicking others from groups and guilds for this? DONT PLAY WITH THOSE PEOPLE. DONT BE THOSE PEOPLE. Make friends, play with your friends. Show grace to others who aren't as well equipped as you. 

    And if this game does item recognition and slow item progression like EQ did, all you'll need to do is look at someone. He's all in blue, so he has all of his level 30 crafted armor, and he has a ykesha and a crystalline blade. Done. No need for this micromanagement dps meter BS. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at February 11, 2016 11:02 AM PST
    • 308 posts
    February 11, 2016 10:32 AM PST

    Krixus said:

    I find this whole DPS meter conversation to be ridiculous, and scary. Why in the world are people kicking others from groups and guilds for this? DONT PLAY WITH THOSE PEOPLE. DONT BE THOSE PEOPLE. Make friends, play with your friends. Show grace to others who aren't as well equipped as you. 

    And if this game does item recognition and slow item progression like EQ did, all you'll need to do is look at someone. He's all in blue, so he has all of his level 3 crafted armor, and he has a ykesha and a crystalline blade. Done. No need for this micromanagement dps meter BS. 

    Yeah, kind of feel the same way.  

    • 428 posts
    February 11, 2016 10:36 AM PST

    DPS meter can be used for more the micromanagement.  It can be used to identify classes that might be specced wrong or have set up gear wrong.  Coming from a hard core raid guild did we kick people based off DPS?   Yah we had times when a Wizzy or scout was out parsed by a paladin which should never happen and they never fixed it so Bye wizzy.  We more often kicked people that wiped the raid by pulling adds or doing something over and over we told them not to.  We did use the DPS charts to find out why that wizard DPS was so low and could almost always fix that.  The raid leaders poured over the DPS data after raids and the spoke to the Class leaders and had them help the lowest parsers.  

    • 9115 posts
    February 11, 2016 7:33 PM PST

    Hieromonk said:

    Kilsin said:

    Dullahan said:

    I can tell you I'll be making a GamTextTriggers type of application for Pantheon if someone doesn't create a good one first. Besides parsing damage, I love being able to play sounds or have TextToSpeech notifying me when certain things happen. I found such programs to really help me focus on the game more than worrying about constantly reading my chat boxes. For instance, I had triggers that notified me of everything from when people said my name to when my root broke. I actually enjoy MMOs less when I don't have such addons.

    I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?

    Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?

    Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?

     

    Kilsin, it all comes down to in-game perceptual awarness of your character & the environment, in combat..!

    Pantheon is not a COMBAT game, it is a MMORPG. And combat is not the main reason (try FPS please)for playing, it is playing a Character in the Role of a Cleric, or of a hermit Wizard, etc. And part of playing that Role... is knowing that role. And when you become proficient at that role, and find Others to group with, you then expand on your Role (becoming a group member) even more.

    Also, knowing your Role is a growing process, that never ends...  as each new encounter brings up new situations and scenarios and you won't always have the same people around you... or the same equipment/spells, so you Character's Role may change once again..!

     

     

     

     

    You can not place a meter on who is playing their Role to the best of their abilities. It is like saying who is playing the best note in a song...

    ie: Your entire evening and Guild Raid was saved, when 2h into the raid, and after a long battle... the entire guild held up on a small cavern. Mending and resting the entire guild was about to get wiped out, if it was not for the quick eye of one of your Enchanters.. who happen to have the right spell up.. to mind freeze the 2 Massive Spiders decending from above. That none seen, or pick up on tracking. Single person saved a 2h raid. Anything afterwards...  is all attributed back to that perceptional aware Enchanter.

    It does not matter that later on, a freak Rogue shows insane DPS...  because he is only playing his Role as a Rogue. Just like it was the Role of ther Rogues to sneak ahead and disarm floor traps, & pick locks, etc.

     

    If you are good, you will know it.

    How well you are playing your Character (at any given time), is not going to be found on a meter somewhere..  (it is post battle meta-data, if you truely need the info, you can use a calculator).

     

     

     

     

    I am well aware of these extra factors Hieromonk, I have led guilds and raids at the highest level for many years and I understand classes have many more duties, tasks and roles than just that of tanking, healing, dpsing and cc/buff/support but I wanted to hear the argument for why GTT was considered ok and meters not, Dullah explained it well as did others but I still see them as automated assistance that takes away from gameplay, that is my personal opinion.

    I personally don't use any of them, other than an external parser that logs dps and healing data for specific raid/group encounters that require dps and healing heavy raid forces, I also like to know where I sit on the list and whether I am doing my job as a dpsing Rogue or whether I am lacking in an area and need to focus more on my rotations and dps output, I also don't mind helping others who are not very good using parsing programs but would like to know how they are doing dps/healing wise.

    I agree with you that in an MMORPG there is more to just dps and aggro but at the competitive high-end it is a factor that will be monitored by high-end guilds and players and people need to be prepared for that, anyone who is not interested in that type of data will hardly ever have to worry as most elite guilds and players tend to stick together and compete amongst each other, so it is not often that a casual player in mixed gear that is out to have fun and not know their class properly will be included in a group of high-end players, therefore, I would suggest ignoring them and playing the game your way and leaving them to play the game their way and by not allowing any dps/aggro meters in game, it removes the reliance on them for the majority of the player base ;)

    As you said, most of us can tell whether someone is good or not just by grouping with them, but when you get to the high-end raids when lot's of players are similar and so close it is hard to compare and that is where a parser would come in handy for those players and guilds.

    • 9115 posts
    February 11, 2016 7:34 PM PST

    Dullahan said:

    Kilsin said:

    Yeah, nice, I have never used GTT and only learned of it a couple of years ago and even thought I raid at a high level and min/max I never saw the need to use it other than to make things easier for me by automatically telling me when something happens rather than being aware and anticipating it or reacting to it naturally, I was also wary of them being in Australian and dealing with lag and around 250-350 server ping, how would that affect GTT, would I get a delayed audio notification or would it notify me before I even saw anything appear? lol

    I have nothing against them of course, I just see too much of a similarity between meters and GTT, so it's interesting when this discussion comes up to see how people react differently to them both.

    That being said, I personally like parses and being able to log my info and being a guild and raid leader, I also like to know other peoples performance and numbers to know how to build a raid, get the best out of my groups and help people improve but I think the difference I am seeing and hearing here is that with myself and my guild, even though we raided at a high level we always had time to stop and help the little guy, the new players, the person dressed in completely wrong gear and stats and give them a friendly helping hand or some helpful advice so they could become better themselves, instead of this dismissive elitist attitude of - come with the right gear, hit the right numbers or get lost - which I can understand to some degree but there are much nicer ways to go about it.

    I think even without aggro and dps meters or even GTTs we will still see elitist guilds and players in Pantheon, it is something that sadly can't be avoided but I think by making it more of a manual process rather than installing it into UIs and having it there in your face all the time, we can minimise a bit of that behaviour and the rest will be up to the players to just avoid those types of players/guilds if it annoys them.

    I didn't mean for this post to be so long but it is an interesting subject, thanks for the replies everyone :)

    Your ping doesn't effect a program like GTT as its entirely dependent on your ping in game. If there is delay in your client, then theres a delay in your logs, but once something occurs in your client GTT parses it in real time. In other words, theres no further delay beyond the normal server delay. It may even be a little more useful to someone with a little delay to help combat latency spikes that cause rubber banding, animation bugs and other speed ups and slow downs in the client related to lag.

    Ok, that makes sense, thanks mate. :)

    • 9115 posts
    February 11, 2016 7:36 PM PST

    Krixus said:

    I find this whole DPS meter conversation to be ridiculous, and scary. Why in the world are people kicking others from groups and guilds for this? DONT PLAY WITH THOSE PEOPLE. DONT BE THOSE PEOPLE. Make friends, play with your friends. Show grace to others who aren't as well equipped as you. 

    And if this game does item recognition and slow item progression like EQ did, all you'll need to do is look at someone. He's all in blue, so he has all of his level 30 crafted armor, and he has a ykesha and a crystalline blade. Done. No need for this micromanagement dps meter BS. 

    This is exactly my thoughts mate, if someone tried to judge me in a group based on gear/stats rather than my performance, that is not someone I want to group with again. The community can control this type of mentality to a degree but we also want to help by restricting these types of meters in game.

    • 96 posts
    February 11, 2016 7:44 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Krixus said:

    I find this whole DPS meter conversation to be ridiculous, and scary. Why in the world are people kicking others from groups and guilds for this? DONT PLAY WITH THOSE PEOPLE. DONT BE THOSE PEOPLE. Make friends, play with your friends. Show grace to others who aren't as well equipped as you. 

    And if this game does item recognition and slow item progression like EQ did, all you'll need to do is look at someone. He's all in blue, so he has all of his level 30 crafted armor, and he has a ykesha and a crystalline blade. Done. No need for this micromanagement dps meter BS. 

    This is exactly my thoughts mate, if someone tried to judge me in a group based on gear/stats rather than my performance, that is not someone I want to group with again. The community can control this type of mentality to a degree but we also want to help by restricting these types of meters in game.

     

    I very much agree with this too. I'm really wanting a community that isn't like other games and brings back how they used to be. A helpful positive community. A community where reputation means something, and if you have a bad reputation, chances are you won't have a very good time getting help. As long as the majority will have a desire for this type of environment then it'll be contagious. Let the elititsts stick to themselves as far as I'm concerned.