beautifully said:The fact is, most mechanics of a fight can be bypassed with pure DPS. This has been proven in every MMO I have ever played.
If that is the case I am hoping this game breaks that mould then! Playing in a non twinked P99 group does not give much room for those who want to drive hard DPS in a group, they usually end up pissing off the healer. I hope and am pretty sure the focus of this game is not all about raids too like so many focus on for their examples of fight mechanics.
Will be very intersting to see how it pans out in testing! You guys have both provided some good examples of where parsing is good!
Hokanu said:beautifully said:The fact is, most mechanics of a fight can be bypassed with pure DPS. This has been proven in every MMO I have ever played.
If that is the case I am hoping this game breaks that mould then! Playing in a non twinked P99 group does not give much room for those who want to drive hard DPS in a group, they usually end up pissing off the healer. I hope and am pretty sure the focus of this game is not all about raids too like so many focus on for their examples of fight mechanics.
Will be very intersting to see how it pans out in testing! You guys have both provided some good examples of where parsing is good!
A lot of the DPS craze could be avoided if tanking is actually difficult. Almost every game I have played since EQ, holding aggro is incredibly easy and you are only a bad tank if you mess that up. I'd like to see it become much more difficult to maintain aggro if your group is going wild with their DPS. Limited taunts.
Iksar said:Hokanu said:beautifully said:The fact is, most mechanics of a fight can be bypassed with pure DPS. This has been proven in every MMO I have ever played.
If that is the case I am hoping this game breaks that mould then! Playing in a non twinked P99 group does not give much room for those who want to drive hard DPS in a group, they usually end up pissing off the healer. I hope and am pretty sure the focus of this game is not all about raids too like so many focus on for their examples of fight mechanics.
Will be very intersting to see how it pans out in testing! You guys have both provided some good examples of where parsing is good!
A lot of the DPS craze could be avoided if tanking is actually difficult. Almost every game I have played since EQ, holding aggro is incredibly easy and you are only a bad tank if you mess that up. I'd like to see it become much more difficult to maintain aggro if your group is going wild with their DPS. Limited taunts.
100% agree! This is definitely one of my biggest hopes for Pantheon to see tanking become a challenge again and one of those roles that makes you nervous about preforming well! Two thumbs up Iksar :)
Agro issues are avoided if DPS learn some control. Maybe the DPSers need to have some difficulty instead of them always going full bore and making everyone else suffer.
Playing a good DPS class is more than just measuring Epeen about who can do the most, while screwing the rest of the party over. It's about the performance of the party as a whole, not just making the DPSers feel good about their numbers.
Beefcake said:Agro issues are avoided if DPS learn some control. Maybe the DPSers need to have some difficulty instead of them always going full bore and making everyone else suffer.
Playing a good DPS class is more than just measuring Epeen about who can do the most, while screwing the rest of the party over. It's about the performance of the party as a whole, not just making the DPSers feel good about their numbers.
Totally. As I always used to say to my DPS teams - "you spank it, you tank it".
Got a question for this generation of gamers, do "DPS" actually wait for the tank to gain agro? Or is it dogpile on the rabbit ..mentality? :) As a wizzie ..I would keep my eye on the tank, count to ten, and THEN start nuking. Is there any strategy at all to the way people play these days? My last example of that was in Rift..I wasn't impressed. :P
CanadinaXegony said:Got a question for this generation of gamers, do "DPS" actually wait for the tank to gain agro? Or is it dogpile on the rabbit ..mentality? :) As a wizzie ..I would keep my eye on the tank, count to ten, and THEN start nuking. Is there any strategy at all to the way people play these days? My last example of that was in Rift..I wasn't impressed. :P
In my experience, they do not wait as there is no need. Tanks tend to initiate for aggro then throw down a taunt which generates massive aggro then just follow a rotation of abilities that also have massive aggro generation, if someone else somehow manages to draw aggro the tanks tend to have multiple abilites that snap it right back to them with no issue. DPS these days are left to go all out all the time and so the epeen race is on every single fight.
CanadinaXegony said:Got a question for this generation of gamers, do "DPS" actually wait for the tank to gain agro? Or is it dogpile on the rabbit ..mentality? :) As a wizzie ..I would keep my eye on the tank, count to ten, and THEN start nuking. Is there any strategy at all to the way people play these days? My last example of that was in Rift..I wasn't impressed. :P
It was still a thing in Vanilla WoW and Burning Crusade. I'm not sure when that actually disappeared from the game, my memories are failing me there. Maybe Lich King or Cataclysm, so in the 2008-2010 era.
Iksar said:Hokanu said:beautifully said:The fact is, most mechanics of a fight can be bypassed with pure DPS. This has been proven in every MMO I have ever played.
If that is the case I am hoping this game breaks that mould then! Playing in a non twinked P99 group does not give much room for those who want to drive hard DPS in a group, they usually end up pissing off the healer. I hope and am pretty sure the focus of this game is not all about raids too like so many focus on for their examples of fight mechanics.
Will be very intersting to see how it pans out in testing! You guys have both provided some good examples of where parsing is good!
A lot of the DPS craze could be avoided if tanking is actually difficult. Almost every game I have played since EQ, holding aggro is incredibly easy and you are only a bad tank if you mess that up. I'd like to see it become much more difficult to maintain aggro if your group is going wild with their DPS. Limited taunts.
I loved that aggro management was a group effort, not just the tank. As far as what they are going with, according to Kilsins replies....perfect.
Iksar said:Hokanu said:beautifully said:The fact is, most mechanics of a fight can be bypassed with pure DPS. This has been proven in every MMO I have ever played.
If that is the case I am hoping this game breaks that mould then! Playing in a non twinked P99 group does not give much room for those who want to drive hard DPS in a group, they usually end up pissing off the healer. I hope and am pretty sure the focus of this game is not all about raids too like so many focus on for their examples of fight mechanics.
Will be very intersting to see how it pans out in testing! You guys have both provided some good examples of where parsing is good!
A lot of the DPS craze could be avoided if tanking is actually difficult. Almost every game I have played since EQ, holding aggro is incredibly easy and you are only a bad tank if you mess that up. I'd like to see it become much more difficult to maintain aggro if your group is going wild with their DPS. Limited taunts.
I also agree 100% with this, it all starts at the difficulty of tanking. Honestly raiding should be a group effort and if your dps out gears your tank (assuming tank aggro abilities are directly effected by gear level) you should not be able to go all out dps and have the tank still hold enough aggro to complete the fight. It seems that most recent games have moved away from very hard mechanics to appease people that just want to be able to do the content.
That being said, depending how fine tuned the aggro system is, you may need to allow parsing of this information to allow players to understand the hardcore mechanics of some fights. I agree that allowing parsers is a good thing as it does not change the difficulty of the fight as long as the aggro mechanics are harder to deal with.
On the DPS meter side, I don't mind this either but I do understand people's frustration with recent MMO's and people waving their epeens. However, I do think that if the content is actually difficult, you will not see as much of this because people simply won't put up with it in most cases. Difficult content makes for a more quality experience and getting banned from groups has a huge impact on games that are actually difficult. More recent MMO's allow people to form pick up groups and kill most of the content with ease which I believe is the main problem.
DPS meters and epeen became a problem in other MMO's with the ability to pull entire rooms at once because the content was trivial. This had nothing to do with aggro generation but the ability to live through retarded game mechanics that allowed it in the first place , in original EQ or P99 aggro is not hard to maintain as a tank even with dps rocking right off the bat in a non twinked group.
The only time aggro was ever really a issue is below 20 since classes are at different peaks and tanks did not have all there aggro generation tools. The only class that truely needs a second to establish pure aggro control is a warrior and that was because there taunt rotation or discs , every other tank sk or pal has instant lock off initial pull and this is without AA's.
Flash of light - paladin instant lock on pull or stuns.
Darkness lines for SK , followed by siphons.
There is alot of rose colored glasses going on around here :)
Xxar said:DPS meters and epeen became a problem in other MMO's with the ability to pull entire rooms at once because the content was trivial. This had nothing to do with aggro generation but the ability to live through retarded game mechanics that allowed it in the first place , in original EQ or P99 aggro is not hard to maintain as a tank even with dps rocking right off the bat in a non twinked group.
The only time aggro was ever really a issue is below 20 since classes are at different peaks and tanks did not have all there aggro generation tools. The only class that truely needs a second to establish pure aggro control is a warrior and that was because there taunt rotation or discs , every other tank sk or pal has instant lock off initial pull and this is without AA's.
Flash of light - paladin instant lock on pull or stuns.
Darkness lines for SK , followed by siphons.
There is alot of rose colored glasses going on around here :)
I don't know about eq, but in vanilla and tbc wow, aggro was a variable that limited the players, and good tanks were not a common sight, tanking 3 mobs perfectly in the tbc heroics was a very hard and skilful task, switching aggro between tanks on bosses that were taunt immune was also a tremendous task.
I hope Pantheon makes aggro on tanks a hard thing to maintain
Aoe pulls and aoe aggro generation are entirely diffrent concepts from game to game, that is where the split started IMO from that other game :P
The ability to even tank 3 - 4 mobs was the problem , that was the end of CC. That is the root problem , the entire concept of pulling 4 + mobs without it , that are even con is just silly to me.
When I am talking aggro generation , I am speaking about single pulls and the ability for a wizard to go full burn. the adds are either CC, OT, Pacified pulled or split via monk. I hope you know what im talking about there eq mechanics .
Xxar said:Aoe pulls and aoe aggro generation are entirely diffrent concepts from game to game, that is where the split started IMO from that other game :P
The ability to even tank 3 - 4 mobs was the problem , that was the end of CC. That is the root problem , the entire concept of pulling 4 + mobs without it , that are even con is just silly to me.
When I am talking aggro generation , I am speaking about single pulls and the ability for a wizard to go full burn. the adds are either CC, OT, Pacified pulled or split via monk. I hope you know what im talking about there eq mechanics .
Ye I know about those mechanics.
Ofc if you can CC you'll do it, it's the best way, but I'm looking at it from the perspective of lets say a 6 mob pull that's immune to cc, you have 2 options, OT, kiting, each tank would take 3 mobs.
I was talking about tanking 3 mobs with single target abilities, because in vanilla wow and tbc there were almost no effective aoe aggro abilities, so to be able to to tank 3 mobs you had to tab-cycle and try and keep aggro on 2 while taunting the 3rd on cooldown, that was the only way.
Xxar said:The only time aggro was ever really a issue is below 20 since classes are at different peaks and tanks did not have all there aggro generation tools.
There is alot of rose colored glasses going on around here :)
This statement is true based on if the DPS are playing specifically in a way that allows the tank to gain and hold agro (choosing their low impact skills to use early and timing their shots before letting loose) and not playing in a way (to bring it back to topic) to win the parse war... If a pure DPS drops bombs from the get go the tank doesnt have a chance.. Lol I think if my enchanter dropped his only "bomb" the tank doesnt have a chance... I guess maybe i might be out of date and this has been changed in new EQ but it certainly was the way back in the day... of my rose coloured glasses ;)
Xxar said:. The only class that truely needs a second to establish pure aggro control is a warrior and that was because there taunt rotation or discs , every other tank sk or pal has instant lock off initial pull and this is without AA's.
Flash of light - paladin instant lock on pull or stuns.
Darkness lines for SK , followed by siphons.
There is alot of rose colored glasses going on around here :)
I'm currently playing P99 as a couple different classes. I can tell you, as a bard, I pull aggro off of everything. Pretty much just by showing up. I've watched other classes pull aggro, too. As you get higher level, people are quick to admit their fault in it, too. The most common admission is, "sorry, nuked too soon."
On an unrelated note, when my bard was lower level, someone sent me tell (he was an SK), "stop taunting." Boggled, I replied, "I'm a bard, sir." I, naturally, assumed that would clear everything up. Instead, "Yeah [jerk] ur just a bard so stop [bleeping] taunting."
I'm pretty sure I don't even get taunt, but if I do, I've never trained it, never have (and never will) made a hotkey for it, and you couldn't pay me enough to actually use it. It's not like I need it to get aggro, anyway. :P
Point being that I have had a very different experience from you, as recently as last night before going to bed. The cleric actually pulled aggro because he was full mana so he thought he'd be big britches and nuke against our pally tank. He got a heavy duty slap on the wrist delivered courtesy of a massive hand, which we all thought pretty hilarious.
