Mephiles said:Dullahan said:
Everyone can have one, and ultimately its up to the dev team, but different features can most definitely be right or wrong for Pantheon.
Its not that anyone is wrong for liking mentoring, but I too feel as a fan of Pantheon, EQ and Vanguard, that it just doesn't fit. Things like mentoring and other mechanics that have lead to the streamlined, all-inclusive game design in MMOs, are at odds with the game outlined in Pantheon's tenants and features.
I could go down the list point by point and make a direct comparison, but the short version is that they are bringing back the MMORPG where the player actually has to spend time and effort both learning the game, making friends, and overcoming the dangerous and sometimes harsh world. "Community, challenge, conquest." Naturally, providing players with ways to circumvent or trivialize those things would be antithetical. Allowing high levels to become low levels because someone doesn't want to find people of their level to do something with, definitely falls into the category of "making things easier."
First, green highlight : Could not disagree more. Almost none of the modern streamlined and all inclusive mmos as you put it offer this system because in those games it is completely unnecessary (you level so fast to max there is rarely any need to have to play with lower levels and grouping often isn't useful for much anyway). I see no evidence to support that a system as I would have it (ffxi style level sync where you would be on par with an average geared player of that level) lead to anything of the sort.
Yellow highlight : This system does not change ANY of that. How does it make you not need to find friends, or spend time playing, or have to overcome the world? You still have to get friends to do things, you still need to find people for groups and you still have to face threats at the same relative level.
Red highlight : How is finding someone of a different level "easier" as you put it? Finding people for a group is finding people for a group, its still the same thing, its not anti social like an auto grouping mechanic, it simply allows for a wider potential grouping pool at any given time.
Again, I keep seeing points of personal bias that seem to stem from a particular implimentation of such a system. A level sync system does not mean you would be stronger than other players of the same level, it does not make any content easier, it does not mean it isn't beneficial to make friends, it does not mean you do not play with new people.
You seem to be adamant about your question, so I'll give you an answer. Its simple. With mentoring, any real life friend or one you made in a previous encounter can fill your group that you'd otherwise have to seek out new, level appropriate players.
Yes, mentoring does change the time, effort and challenge. Have you honestly played a game with mentoring? Even one? Without an exception, it made every aspect of the game easier.
Mephiles said:Dullahan said:
Everyone can have one, and ultimately its up to the dev team, but different features can most definitely be right or wrong for Pantheon.
Its not that anyone is wrong for liking mentoring, but I too feel as a fan of Pantheon, EQ and Vanguard, that it just doesn't fit. Things like mentoring and other mechanics that have lead to the streamlined, all-inclusive game design in MMOs, are at odds with the game outlined in Pantheon's tenants and features.
I could go down the list point by point and make a direct comparison, but the short version is that they are bringing back the MMORPG where the player actually has to spend time and effort both learning the game, making friends, and overcoming the dangerous and sometimes harsh world. "Community, challenge, conquest." Naturally, providing players with ways to circumvent or trivialize those things would be antithetical. Allowing high levels to become low levels because someone doesn't want to find people of their level to do something with, definitely falls into the category of "making things easier."
First, green highlight : Could not disagree more. Almost none of the modern streamlined and all inclusive mmos as you put it offer this system because in those games it is completely unnecessary (you level so fast to max there is rarely any need to have to play with lower levels and grouping often isn't useful for much anyway). I see no evidence to support that a system as I would have it (ffxi style level sync where you would be on par with an average geared player of that level) lead to anything of the sort.
Yellow highlight : This system does not change ANY of that. How does it make you not need to find friends, or spend time playing, or have to overcome the world? You still have to get friends to do things, you still need to find people for groups and you still have to face threats at the same relative level.
Red highlight : How is finding someone of a different level "easier" as you put it? Finding people for a group is finding people for a group, its still the same thing, its not anti social like an auto grouping mechanic, it simply allows for a wider potential grouping pool at any given time.
Again, I keep seeing points of personal bias that seem to stem from a particular implimentation of such a system. A level sync system does not mean you would be stronger than other players of the same level, it does not make any content easier, it does not mean it isn't beneficial to make friends, it does not mean you do not play with new people.
In the 3 years I played EQ I never saw a mentoring system, not sure of the state now, but I don't see why it would ever need it. However, every MMO outside of EQ I played, added a mentoring system (CoH/CoV, Rift, EQ2, GW2, SWTOR, and VG). So how can you say almost none have it? Now why doesn't EQ need it and every modern MMO have it, simple, because the modern MMO is xp content based, and all xp content is level or skill based and there isn't a reason to do anything in any modern MMO if you aren't gaining xp for it. Now in EQ I would say 50% of my playing time gave me very little or 0 xp. Also, many of the tasks I worked on like attaining quest materials usually had no level restriction (may have had a faction restriction). That means I could do xp quests with my friend who was 20 levels higher than me if we both had the right faction. Modern MMO's are so dumb, they keep building these games without a foundation that works and then place band-aids like mentoring when their game begins to break. I applaud pantheon for going back to the roots and looking at improving upon a foundation that works instead of building another level on a genre that is set to collapse.
Dullahan said:You seem to be adamant about your question, so I'll give you an answer. Its simple. With mentoring, any real life friend or one you made in a previous encounter can fill your group that you'd otherwise have to seek out new, level appropriate players.
Yes, mentoring does change the time, effort and challenge. Have you honestly played a game with mentoring? Even one? Without an exception, it made every aspect of the game easier.
Yes, in fact the vast majority of my experience in mmos is with a game that has an option called level sync. It was added in somewhere around 4ish years after the game came out so I know exactly what the experience was like both before and after it was added and no it did not make the game "easier". I get the feeling from your approach here that you define easier as being doing anything less which is not actually easier being that time compiling a party is not difficulty and most definitely was never intended to be seen that way.
"With mentoring, any real life friend or one you made in a previous encounter can fill your group that you'd otherwise have to seek out new, level appropriate players." is a backwards statement because it is technically possible both with a system and without. The system just makes the logistics of accomplishing such a task less costly to the player. Further, just because you CAN do that (which again is possible without the system) does not mean you WILL do that. As I said above I have experience with both no system and the system in the same setting and the result was largely the same (still met randoms and still had to find people that would fit what I needed) just requiring less time doing mostly nothing.
"Yes, mentoring does change the time, effort and challenge." It changes time and nothing else. Fighting a boss is still fighting a boss, it is just as hard. Grouping for 500 hours to hit max level is still goruping for 500 hours to hit max level. Where is this changing the CHALLENGE? Unless as previously stated you for some reason consider the task of waiting challenging. I am all for meaningful and time consuming content, I don't even mind effort camping something that may take a while, but dividing people up just to force people to wait is not my idea of challenge.
geatz said:
In the 3 years I played EQ I never saw a mentoring system, not sure of the state now, but I don't see why it would ever need it. However, every MMO outside of EQ I played, added a mentoring system (CoH/CoV, Rift, EQ2, GW2, SWTOR, and VG). So how can you say almost none have it? Now why doesn't EQ need it and every modern MMO have it, simple, because the modern MMO is xp content based, and all xp content is level or skill based and there isn't a reason to do anything in any modern MMO if you aren't gaining xp for it. Now in EQ I would say 50% of my playing time gave me very little or 0 xp. Also, many of the tasks I worked on like attaining quest materials usually had no level restriction (may have had a faction restriction). That means I could do xp quests with my friend who was 20 levels higher than me if we both had the right faction. Modern MMO's are so dumb, they keep building these games without a foundation that works and then place band-aids like mentoring when their game begins to break. I applaud pantheon for going back to the roots and looking at improving upon a foundation that works instead of building another level on a genre that is set to collapse.
CoH and vanguard are not considered modern mmos that dullhan was likely referring to (those copying the WoW formula) so I don't count them. Swtor also does not have a mentoring system, it has scaled content (you do not sync to players, you sync to planets) which is slightly different and has different intentions (I believe that guild wars 2 is the same as this). I can't speak for rift or everquest 2 personally as I have not played them but just about every WoW clone game I have played does not offer a system like I am suggesting here. Why would they when leveling is trivial and even if they felt like it was important to let you sync to friends it would likely be unused since all of them have solo focused leveling anyway. The point is that if this system was contributing to the drive away from traditional mmos then it would be present in modern ones and it isn't. Final fantasy xi (not 14) also had content as you described where it was valuable and necessary outside of gaining exp. However, unlike your everquest example the only real way to gain exp in final fantasy xi was to group up with people and go out and kill things. The only exception to this were a series of very hard missions which you would most likely die on multiple times and lose more exp than you would gain from completing them anyhow. So I can say with confidence that the system fits that kind of a setting just fine.
Mephiles said:Dullahan said:You seem to be adamant about your question, so I'll give you an answer. Its simple. With mentoring, any real life friend or one you made in a previous encounter can fill your group that you'd otherwise have to seek out new, level appropriate players.
Yes, mentoring does change the time, effort and challenge. Have you honestly played a game with mentoring? Even one? Without an exception, it made every aspect of the game easier.
Yes, in fact the vast majority of my experience in mmos is with a game that has an option called level sync. It was added in somewhere around 4ish years after the game came out so I know exactly what the experience was like both before and after it was added and no it did not make the game "easier". I get the feeling from your approach here that you define easier as being doing anything less which is not actually easier being that time compiling a party is not difficulty and most definitely was never intended to be seen that way.
"With mentoring, any real life friend or one you made in a previous encounter can fill your group that you'd otherwise have to seek out new, level appropriate players." is a backwards statement because it is technically possible both with a system and without. The system just makes the logistics of accomplishing such a task less costly to the player. Further, just because you CAN do that (which again is possible without the system) does not mean you WILL do that. As I said above I have experience with both no system and the system in the same setting and the result was largely the same (still met randoms and still had to find people that would fit what I needed) just requiring less time doing mostly nothing.
"Yes, mentoring does change the time, effort and challenge." It changes time and nothing else. Fighting a boss is still fighting a boss, it is just as hard. Grouping for 500 hours to hit max level is still goruping for 500 hours to hit max level. Where is this changing the CHALLENGE? Unless as previously stated you for some reason consider the task of waiting challenging. I am all for meaningful and time consuming content, I don't even mind effort camping something that may take a while, but dividing people up just to force people to wait is not my idea of challenge.
Lot of holes and semantics being thrown around here to justify making things easier. You can call it "taking longer" or try to argue that it was "never intended" for a player to work to create groups, but its part of the social dynamic, creates a need and appreciation for other players, and clearly an obstacle that you want to circumvent.
Just because a friend can join you without mentoring, doesn't mean they will always be within the range to do so. That is using the exception to overthrow the rule so to speak, and a fallacy.
Lastly, I'd like to point out the fact that just because it takes 500 hours of actual experiencing to level up, the actual leveling time may be longer by design to account for looking for groups, social intricacies or other roadblocks that the player may experience in a virtual world with contested content. I know this was the case in EverQuest. You could grind to 50 in a matter of weeks, but it took most people 6 months or longer when you factor in the learning curve and all the multiplayer aspects of the game.
Dullahan said:Lot of holes and semantics being thrown around here to justify making things easier. You can call it "taking longer" or try to argue that it was "never intended" for a player to work to create groups, but its part of the social dynamic, creates a need and appreciation for other players, and clearly an obstacle that you want to circumvent.
Just because a friend can join you without mentoring, doesn't mean they will always be within the range to do so. That is using the exception to overthrow the rule so to speak, and a fallacy.
Lastly, I'd like to point out the fact that just because it takes 500 hours of actual experiencing to level up, the actual leveling time may be longer by design to account for looking for groups, social intricacies or other roadblocks that the player may experience in a virtual world with contested content. I know this was the case in EverQuest. You could grind to 50 in a matter of weeks, but it took most people 6 months or longer when you factor in the learning curve and all the multiplayer aspects of the game.
Yellow: and you have not shown that having such a system invalidates "need and appreciation of other players"..... As said, from my experience it has not invalidated that in the slightest and since you seem to be coming from a history where the system is done very differently (leaving players over powered) I believe that you do not know how the system would affect social dynamics if it was done as I am suggesting it.
Red: Technically you are doing the same thing, just because someone can level exclusively with friends and never seek new people to group with does not mean that they will or even that it is common for people to never play with new people with such a system in place. Using the same fallacy.
Green: The game experience very well could be balanced around the expected time required to find groups and other social intricacies but there is nothing out there saying that it was designed with that being an intended roadblock (versus one simply expected to occur, desireable or not). Further, if that is the case what is stopping the devs from designing it around the use of this new system? That is a net neutral as far as I am concerned because if you expect the game to take 6 months with accounting for social obstacles you can just eas easily design it to take 6 months with diminished social obstacles.
Man, this thread gets interesting at times. I've tried to stay out of this one, but I got sucked in.
I'm not a fan of mentoring. But, that said, I think I read somewhere that this game plans on being largly non-instanced. If that's the case, have your big, bad, bold, high-level buddy play outside your group and pitch in when things get rough. I think that's all that should be needed, anyway.
It really depends on the "who tagged it, who loots it, who did the most damage" dynamic, if there is some sort of Trivial Loot Code associated with the game, etc. Sure, I like to fend for myself; but every now and again we all hit a rough patch and it's nice to hook a brotha up.
I had said in this thread that I'm aganist mentoring, and I still am, but the older thread that was linked within this one I had discussed a possibility for a reversed scaled twinking system used for mentoring, that all gear/spells/levels/abilities would be scaled back to basically being a well-geared "Twink" at that level (I also would want the twinks scaled as well similar to EQ, but taken a bit further where items like the Fungi tunic were scaled with a "Recovery Skill"). So, basically, a reversed twinking system. And, realistically it could make sense as many professions take on a mentee to train.
However, after reading this thread, I would agree with others that are aganist mentoring that there are other repercussions outside of what I originally thought, or had proposed with a modified system. I'd definitely now lean aganist mentoring. Especially the point on how mentors would take level appropriate group members slots.
It made me think that mentoring, even if implemented how I thought it could be "realistic" would still negatively effect gameplay. It would be different from twinks for one main reason. First, with twinks players would still be grouping in a level appropriate range without an ability to magically jump to a needed specific level range. So, while they may trivialize gameplay a bit based off their knowledge, they still would have to take the time to level a character to the range that was needed for the specific group.
Whereas, a mentor could jump to any level of a group that would be seeking a member. So, a group could have a "mentor" magically delevel to an appropriate level to group. This would definitely create less ability for level appropriate players to group (especially lesser geared players). It could be a player that joined a guild with higher level members that he/she asks to de-level to group, or a player that doesn't have as much play time that asks an old friend to de-level, etc. Basically, it starts affecting the social interactions on the server and has people grouping/interacting with the familiar rather than meeting new players. At that point, I would view the mentor system as a "crutch" to grouping that streamlines interaction rather than a benefit to social interdependence.
I was honestly against the mentor system when this started... but the constant whining has really sold me on the feasibility of the system.
You guys keep making an assumption that there will be level appropriate players to group with at all times. I remember logging in and sometimes sitting around for two hours trying to find a group before anything could kick off... that was in the hayday of the game.... when it was the only show in town. Yeah yeah I know... tough chit. But why do that when there is a chance for a system that might occasionaly give another option that has players playing.
I mean... let's keep the core of making a challenging world... but let's actually create something that is going to be able to exist for a while. Making a game for the 100 guys or so that just want to rub their foreheads on a cheese grater is fine and all... but in the end those 100 guys aren't going to pay for the servers to stay up.
Saying we want a game that forces grouping and then bashing something that guarantees that in a pinch groups have options to continue playing is basically just being a jerk to be a jerk. The way you make the system work is simple. He goes down to level 15... he only has access to spells that a level 15 would have. He can only use equipment that a level 15 can use. So no... his equipment doesn't scale... there's no math involved... he pulls out a bronze short sword and swings it like a level 15 would. He doesn't get experience. He's not someone to pull them through... he's just a body to fill an obvious hole. Can't find a healer for your group... I'll mentor down and heal you guys till you can find one to replace me.
No matter what you do... there are going to be twinks eventually, and they will affect gameplay.... eventually. But if there is an answer to someone sitting LFG for two hours so they can go out and play... use it... that's a sub which continues to pay for your game.
You are trying too hard to regulate other people's playing time in order to elevate your own achievement. And I got news for you... the guys that need the mentoring... they probably aren't going to be playing with you 99% of the time anyway, because they are just there to play with their buddies when they have time. I mean words cannot describe how little it will probably affect you...
I don't want to inflame the discussion by any means but I do want to point out that mentoring in VG was a pretty awesome mechanic and actually helped people of all levels connect and enjoy the game together, it is completely up to the person if they want to mentor or not but with so much doom and gloom being spoken about this system, I wanted to mention that it was actually pretty good in VG and didn't have anywhere near the impact that some are claiming in this thread, VG isn't EQ and neither is Pantheon, so it may be wise to keep an open mind rather than shutting down an idea based on personal opinion. ;)
If the Pantheon population is at such a low point that a player mentoring down to a lower level will have an impact on higher level groups, then I think we have a much bigger problem than mentoring!
Please also keep in mind that we have never stated that we will either include or exclude a mentoring system but when they are implemented into game it is usually after the game has been around for a few years to help the high-level players "mentor" and connect with lower level players when the max levelers are usually bottlenecked at end game content and the new players are struggling to find players to group with, in Pantheon we hope our Progeny system will take away that problem and once we can speak more on it, it will make more sense but until then please continue with this discussion and try to just step outside the bubble and keep an open mind, not everything is bad and going to end the world :)
Kilsin said:Please also keep in mind that we have never stated that we will either include or exclude a mentoring system but when they are implemented into game it is usually after the game has been around for a few years to help the high-level players "mentor" and connect with lower level players when the max levelers are usually bottlenecked at end game content and the new players are struggling to find players to group with, in Pantheon we hope our Progeny system will take away that problem and once we can speak more on it, it will make more sense but until then please continue with this discussion and try to just step outside the bubble and keep an open mind, not everything is bad and going to end the world :)
I agree. The mentoring type of mechanic and other conveniences often show up when games start to struggle. Its my hope that by bringing back a different paradigm of game (namely, one of slower, more challenging multiplayer progression), that some of those problems like empty low level areas and end game "bottlenecks" won't be as much of an issue.
You see, I didn't feel stuck at any point in EQ, endgame or otherwise. There were always things to accomplish, whether personal or for friends and guildmates. The low level areas, especially dungeons, were busy even years after launch. So while there wasn't always a group waiting for you to join, the issue of empty low level areas and major bottlenecks was not something we had to contend with. That is because EQ was a fundamentally different game. It was up to YOU to make it work, showing yourself friendly and useful to other players (I never had problems finding groups and kept a massive friends list).
Call me a masochist, but I honestly believe it was the lack of convenience that encouraged players to find a way to "make it work" and was the staple of what made EQ such an amazing and memorable game. Nothing was free. The world was before you to overcome, but it was entirely up to the players to work together, organically, and find a way to do so. The spirit of that game and mechanics like mentoring are simply at odds.
Rubezahl said:Saying we want a game that forces grouping and then bashing something that guarantees that in a pinch groups have options to continue playing is basically just being a jerk to be a jerk. The way you make the system work is simple. He goes down to level 15... he only has access to spells that a level 15 would have. He can only use equipment that a level 15 can use. So no... his equipment doesn't scale... there's no math involved... he pulls out a bronze short sword and swings it like a level 15 would. He doesn't get experience. He's not someone to pull them through... he's just a body to fill an obvious hole. Can't find a healer for your group... I'll mentor down and heal you guys till you can find one to replace me.
I'm all for systems that promote grouping as long as they aren't a detriment to gameplay and/or trivialize challenge and the world based off of convenience (see WoW group finders as an example of a tool that assists with finding groups that I'd be 100% aganist). Now, on to your example, the spells could work as most spells have a level requirement; however, the gear wouldn't work unless all gear comes with a level requirement as well, which I'm hoping Pantheon avoids and returns back to old the EQ system.
And, a mentor system hardly gauruntees someone won't still be /LFG. The player that has little play time and few friends wouldn't always find people to magically revert back to his level. It would help the people who are already guilded and/or have higher level friends who outleveled him. At that point, I'd agree with Dullahan that the masochist in me would want the player to have to find a group rather then be provided the convenience of being able to ask guildies to "revert back" as figuring it out and making things work was a huge part of what made EQ memorable. And, who knows, that person may be able to find new/more friends that will help to find groups in the future rather than having the crutch of mentoring.
And, you're last sentence of "I'll mentor down and heal you guys till you can find one to replace me." is a large assumption as well. I'd wager that it would be at least 50/50 that the group would keep the mentor in the group rather than seeking another replacement.
And, this also brings up another issue of what is the "gain" for the mentor? Experience, etc.? I know Kilsin had discussed in the past that it would be a fraction of the level appropriate mob exp, but, if the system did exist, I would want there to be no exp gain.
Rubezahl said:No matter what you do... there are going to be twinks eventually, and they will affect gameplay.... eventually. But if there is an answer to someone sitting LFG for two hours so they can go out and play... use it... that's a sub which continues to pay for your game.
Twinks are a separate discussion, and, I have discussed that I would prefer twinking to be scaled similar to EQ, but taken a bit further so items like the Fungi tunic wouldn't be extremely overpowering. I'd also like the removal of raw hps/mana on items so stats scaled naturally with level. But, you're correct, you wouldn't be able to remove that players knowledge from assisting the group, but, at least that player had to level their alt/twink to the level appropriate range, which takes time, versus being able to magically revert back to any level range needed. That is much more of a crutch to grouping.
Rubezahl said:You are trying too hard to regulate other people's playing time in order to elevate your own achievement. And I got news for you... the guys that need the mentoring... they probably aren't going to be playing with you 99% of the time anyway, because they are just there to play with their buddies when they have time. I mean words cannot describe how little it will probably affect you...
I'm not sure if the "you" is directed towards me, but I'll respond anyway. For me, It has nothing to do with my achievement. I would benefit from a mentoring system as I fall in the 2-3 hour playtime window and I'm sure I'll have plenty of friends that outlevel me, which is why I have teetered a bit in my thoughts on these forums.
However, I just want a game created that can recapture the EQ experience, and, as I've stated in other threads, it was the combination of elements that created the perfect storm that was EQ - some intentional and others unintentional, but if you sacrifice challenge for the sake of convenience - it won't be recaptured. Basically, you can't always get what you want. Trying to find a group and being unsuccessful makes you appreciate the good ones more. Being bored makes you appreciate the fun times more, etc. Even if I don't like/want the "lows" - you need them.
Kilsin said:I don't want to inflame the discussion by any means but I do want to point out that mentoring in VG was a pretty awesome mechanic and actually helped people of all levels connect and enjoy the game together, it is completely up to the person if they want to mentor or not but with so much doom and gloom being spoken about this system, I wanted to mention that it was actually pretty good in VG and didn't have anywhere near the impact that some are claiming in this thread, VG isn't EQ and neither is Pantheon, so it may be wise to keep an open mind rather than shutting down an idea based on personal opinion. ;)
If the Pantheon population is at such a low point that a player mentoring down to a lower level will have an impact on higher level groups, then I think we have a much bigger problem than mentoring!Please also keep in mind that we have never stated that we will either include or exclude a mentoring system but when they are implemented into game it is usually after the game has been around for a few years to help the high-level players "mentor" and connect with lower level players when the max levelers are usually bottlenecked at end game content and the new players are struggling to find players to group with, in Pantheon we hope our Progeny system will take away that problem and once we can speak more on it, it will make more sense but until then please continue with this discussion and try to just step outside the bubble and keep an open mind, not everything is bad and going to end the world :)
Well, to be fair, VG's population was so low that mentoring almost was a necessity. And, my fear wouldn't be the effect on higher level groups, but lower level. Meaning, that if a 50 cleric could revert back to 15 and it was a person's friend and was available, he would be chosen over the unknown 15 cleric /LFG.
And, I'm hoping that Pantheon's population will be much more stable for many years, and, zones are designed where high levels return to the older zones so they don't feel like a ghost town. And, I'm not aganist testing any system, but, until it is in place, I'm simply sharing my thoughts on why I feel it would be a detriment :).
With that said, I understand the benefits of a mentoring system, and, did see how it helped with VG, but, I'd fall more in line with Dullahan's last post.
Raidan said:Kilsin said:I don't want to inflame the discussion by any means but I do want to point out that mentoring in VG was a pretty awesome mechanic and actually helped people of all levels connect and enjoy the game together, it is completely up to the person if they want to mentor or not but with so much doom and gloom being spoken about this system, I wanted to mention that it was actually pretty good in VG and didn't have anywhere near the impact that some are claiming in this thread, VG isn't EQ and neither is Pantheon, so it may be wise to keep an open mind rather than shutting down an idea based on personal opinion. ;)
If the Pantheon population is at such a low point that a player mentoring down to a lower level will have an impact on higher level groups, then I think we have a much bigger problem than mentoring!Please also keep in mind that we have never stated that we will either include or exclude a mentoring system but when they are implemented into game it is usually after the game has been around for a few years to help the high-level players "mentor" and connect with lower level players when the max levelers are usually bottlenecked at end game content and the new players are struggling to find players to group with, in Pantheon we hope our Progeny system will take away that problem and once we can speak more on it, it will make more sense but until then please continue with this discussion and try to just step outside the bubble and keep an open mind, not everything is bad and going to end the world :)
Well, to be fair, VG's population was so low that mentoring almost was a necessity. And, my fear wouldn't be the effect on higher level groups, but lower level. Meaning, that if a 50 cleric could revert back to 15 and it was a person's friend and was available, he would be chosen over the unknown 15 cleric /LFG.
And, I'm hoping that Pantheon's population will be much more stable for many years, and, zones are designed where high levels return to the older zones so they don't feel like a ghost town. And, I'm not aganist testing any system, but, until it is in place, I'm simply sharing my thoughts on why I feel it would be a detriment :).
With that said, I understand the benefits of a mentoring system, and, did see how it helped with VG, but, I'd fall more in line with Dullahan's last post.
That is true mate but I was talking about when it was first implemented in VG, which was actually quite a healthy period for the game during prime time and off-peak times, but I only used VG as an example as it is the game I have the most experience with and I know how the mentor system worked and what affect it had on the game, there are many other games around that utilise the same or similar features with healthy populations, it all comes down to implementation but it is a mechanic specifically designed to bring more people together and bridge that gap between level ranges and I have not seen it have the negative impacts that are being suggested in this thread in any of those games, VG included.
I don't personally think that Pantheon will need a mechanic like this for at least the first few years and if the Progeny system works well, it may never be needed but the point I was trying to make was that discussion shouldn't be shut down based on personal opinions and guesses at what it may be like based on a game that was created 15+ years ago, the mechanic serves a purpose in many successful AAA MMORPGs and could well serve as a benefit to Pantheon in years to come. ;)
Aich said:Kilsin said:and if the Progeny system works well, it may never be needed
Thats what I was about to say :)
I also considered this, and hope it brings people back through the lower levels. Between proginy and just making an enjoyable and challenging game that has high replay value, I do not worry much about lower levels finding someone to group with. To this day, I still replay EQ on an emu every few years because, though I've seen every zone and done just about everything there is to do, the struggle to progress is unparalleled and more rewarding than any other game I've played.
Mephiles said:CoH and vanguard are not considered modern mmos that dullhan was likely referring to (those copying the WoW formula) so I don't count them. Swtor also does not have a mentoring system, it has scaled content (you do not sync to players, you sync to planets) which is slightly different and has different intentions (I believe that guild wars 2 is the same as this). I can't speak for rift or everquest 2 personally as I have not played them but just about every WoW clone game I have played does not offer a system like I am suggesting here. Why would they when leveling is trivial and even if they felt like it was important to let you sync to friends it would likely be unused since all of them have solo focused leveling anyway. The point is that if this system was contributing to the drive away from traditional mmos then it would be present in modern ones and it isn't. Final fantasy xi (not 14) also had content as you described where it was valuable and necessary outside of gaining exp. However, unlike your everquest example the only real way to gain exp in final fantasy xi was to group up with people and go out and kill things. The only exception to this were a series of very hard missions which you would most likely die on multiple times and lose more exp than you would gain from completing them anyhow. So I can say with confidence that the system fits that kind of a setting just fine.
My friend,
You need to slow down and vet your own ideas, before tossing them out for ridicule. You keep talking about "in your experience"... so what is your experience.? Perhaps that is why you are not understanding the context of others posts.
You even state you didn't play EQ2, nor Vanguard and have no idea how mentoring was..? And that they are clones of WoW ..?
Why do you need Mentoring?
I mean YOU personally... and once you overcome that crutch, perhaps you can see what others are saying. That the actual mechanic of "menoring" takes away from the actual ability to help a friend, or make new ones. No matter their level.
xtnpd said:I'm not a fan of mentoring. But, that said, I think I read somewhere that this game plans on being largly non-instanced. If that's the case, have your big, bad, bold, high-level buddy play outside your group and pitch in when things get rough. I think that's all that should be needed, anyway.
I would much rather enjoy the content with my friends at a simulated appropriate level than act like a God-angel buffing and stomping trains. This would also have the benefit of teaching the noobs how to world works instead of always getting bailed out or face-rolling the content. I'm not saying PL shouldn't be an option, but it's not the same as mentoring.
Raidan said:And, this also brings up another issue of what is the "gain" for the mentor? Experience, etc.? I know Kilsin had discussed in the past that it would be a fraction of the level appropriate mob exp, but, if the system did exist, I would want there to be no exp gain.
Does there need to be a gain other than enjoying some challenging dungeon with lower level friends? As you said, even if there was exp, the amount would be ridiculously small for a higher level that it wouldn't matter.
To me this is not about getting a buff to my main or having my noob friends level faster. It's about enjoying time with them without having to create alts I don't want to play and/or detract time from their main character.
Hieromonk said:
My friend,
You need to slow down and vet your own ideas, before tossing them out for ridicule. You keep talking about "in your experience"... so what is your experience.? Perhaps that is why you are not understanding the context of others posts.
You even state you didn't play EQ2, nor Vanguard and have no idea how mentoring was..? And that they are clones of WoW ..?
Why do you need Mentoring?
I mean YOU personally... and once you overcome that crutch, perhaps you can see what others are saying. That the actual mechanic of "menoring" takes away from the actual ability to help a friend, or make new ones. No matter their level.
Yellow: Did you read the thread? Because I very clearly stated my experience with the system is largely (but not entirely) from final fantasy xi which is largely similar to everquest (as opposed to something like WoW, Everquest 2 or even vanguard). The fact that you are asking that just tells me you skipped pages in this thread.
Red: Actually I played both everquest 2 and vanguard but not enough for it to matter. I also did not call them WoW clones.... The message you quoted was saying that level sync features (similar to mentoring) are not prominent IN modern WoW clone type games.
Green: First, how does mentoring / level sync take away from the ability to help a friend? I don't know how that worked in everquest 2 or vanguard but in ffxi you could still come and buff / heal low level people to help them but you could also group up with them (this could be done synced or unsynced, it did not happen automatically) if need be so it actually allows you more options to help.
As for why I need it? I do not need it and I am pretty sure that applies to pretty much everyones desires here. I want it because it means I will actually be able to play and interact with friends I make in the game (as stated earlier in the thread I will be coming into the game solo) instead of just being support (or at least be able to play with them more reliably instead of once in a while if they have a difficult quest or something they need help on). I want it because it brings more variety to the leveling experience where if I spent the last 2 days leveling in the same spot I can go somewhere else for a change of pace. I want it because it is a tool that lets me continue the same adventures I had in the leveling experience at higher/max level and will smooth out the leveling experience over all (instead of short times or long times looking for people it will be more even accross the board). Notice not one of those reasons was to make something easy.
Mephiles said:Hieromonk said:
My friend,
You need to slow down and vet your own ideas, before tossing them out for ridicule. You keep talking about "in your experience"... so what is your experience.? Perhaps that is why you are not understanding the context of others posts.
You even state you didn't play EQ2, nor Vanguard and have no idea how mentoring was..? And that they are clones of WoW ..?
Why do you need Mentoring?
I mean YOU personally... and once you overcome that crutch, perhaps you can see what others are saying. That the actual mechanic of "menoring" takes away from the actual ability to help a friend, or make new ones. No matter their level.
Yellow: Did you read the thread? Because I very clearly stated my experience with the system is largely (but not entirely) from final fantasy xi which is largely similar to everquest (as opposed to something like WoW, Everquest 2 or even vanguard). The fact that you are asking that just tells me you skipped pages in this thread.
Red: Actually I played both everquest 2 and vanguard but not enough for it to matter. I also did not call them WoW clones.... The message you quoted was saying that level sync features (similar to mentoring) are not prominent IN modern WoW clone type games.
Green: First, how does mentoring / level sync take away from the ability to help a friend? I don't know how that worked in everquest 2 or vanguard but in ffxi you could still come and buff / heal low level people to help them but you could also group up with them (this could be done synced or unsynced, it did not happen automatically) if need be so it actually allows you more options to help.
As for why I need it? I do not need it and I am pretty sure that applies to pretty much everyones desires here. I want it because it means I will actually be able to play and interact with friends I make in the game (as stated earlier in the thread I will be coming into the game solo) instead of just being support (or at least be able to play with them more reliably instead of once in a while if they have a difficult quest or something they need help on). I want it because it brings more variety to the leveling experience where if I spent the last 2 days leveling in the same spot I can go somewhere else for a change of pace. I want it because it is a tool that lets me continue the same adventures I had in the leveling experience at higher/max level and will smooth out the leveling experience over all (instead of short times or long times looking for people it will be more even accross the board). Notice not one of those reasons was to make something easy.
Don't acuse me of such things. I read thoroughly, each thread I respond in..!
Perhaps you missed the point of my post, or perhaps it went over your head...? I was politely forcing you to confront the fact that Final Fantasy is not EverQuest, or EverQuest2 or Vanguard. And that even though gameplay seemed similiar, the game mechanics are not. Begs, why do you need a mentor mechanic..?
And.. why can't you do those things with a friend, while not mentoring? Why does this added "mentor" mechanic come into play.. what do Each gain from being mentored, or mentee...?
Explain plz. (ie: look inward..)
In my experience with mentoring I do not feel it has shut me off from playing with people outside my tighter circle of friends, on the contrary it has helped me play with people I would normally not. I will cite three examples:
I played EQ2 for years. Yes mentors were too OP and that should have been fixed, but aside of that I really did love that system. It allowed me to play with people I would normally not group with because of level disparity. when I was in a small guild I could play with my fiends that were not my level. The real gem came from when I was part of a huge guild and people (that I never played with before) would type in guild chat that they would want to run a dungeon - and I could do it with them! I could even benefit by building up my character through the Alternate Acheivement xp. These people were not asking for run-throughs (like in games that did not have mentoring). Run throughs are a horrible idea for new players because it teaches them nothing and they do not get that feeling of accomplishment. Mentoring was a great tool, as a guild master, to interact with new members and to teach newer members how to play. If I was out in the world and saw a player trying to kill a mob, yes I could one-shot it for the lower level player, but it was cooler to mentor them and fight it at level.
Archeage's mentor system (if I remember correctly)was relegated to dungeons and you were rewarded for mentoring a person in that instance. I met a lot of players I would have normally not interacted before because of that system and earned a currency while doing so.
FFXIV's level sync was matched better as far as power scaling. Running lower level content again allowed me to interact with people I would not normally interact with because of level disparities. I met a lot of new people when matched up with the duty finder (too bad it was not server only) or grinding fates out in the world.
Do I need mentoring in my game - nope, but I do like it. Could I just play with my own level all the time? yea - but why limit myself with just people my own level when there is a server full of new friends to meet! I just wanted to put my two cents in since, some people felt that mentoring kept people playing with their own groups. It has been my experience that mentoring lets me play and meet more people than limit me. I am quite interested and looking forward to Pantheon's Progeny system because of my love of interacting with all level ranges.
Hieromonk said:
Don't acuse me of such things. I read thoroughly, each thread I respond in..!
Perhaps you missed the point of my post, or perhaps it went over your head...? I was politely forcing you to confront the fact that Final Fantasy is not EverQuest, or EverQuest2 or Vanguard. And that even though gameplay seemed similiar, the game mechanics are not. Begs, why do you need a mentor mechanic..?
And.. why can't you do those things with a friend, while not mentoring? Why does this added "mentor" mechanic come into play.. what do Each gain from being mentored, or mentee...?
Explain plz. (ie: look inward..)
If you had read it you should have known the answer to some of your own questions.
In regards to final fantasy xi not being everquest (strong similarity), everquest 2 (not so much), and vanguard (somewhere in between) first off the mechanics actually were pretty similar for ffxi and everquest. Just to give a few examples, group leveling (you pretty much could not level solo outside of level 10, you could stretch it but it got harder and slower the longer you tried), vertical leveling system that also had skill progression (weapon skill was very important as it determined base attack and accuracy ratings), rare/incredibly long spawn time open world bosses (these would take anywhere from 1 hour to days to spawn with a couple extremely long exceptions), no quest leveling at all, open world dungeons (again this is just to name a few). I am aware they are not the same game, it would be silly to think that they are but they are certainly of the same type (and this is important to establish here because many would be quick to show you the door thinking you aren't looking for this kind of game).
Having said that, Pantheon too is not everquest, everquest 2 or vanguard so why should it matter that final fantasy 11 isn't one of those? Also 2 of those also offered "mentoring" mechanics so if we are going to go by what is there it still has just as much right to be at the table.
I already answered your silly question about why I need it. If you didn't get it, need is a silly qualification because we don't need pretty much anything. We don't need crafting but from what I recall you certainly want that. Want is what really matters here and I have given you reasons why I want it which again you seem to have not read because many of those directly rely upon the system to accomplish.
Let me go ahead and break those down for why a level sync system is important for them:
"I want it because it means I will actually be able to play and interact with friends I make in the game (as stated earlier in the thread I will be coming into the game solo) instead of just being support (or at least be able to play with them more reliably instead of once in a while if they have a difficult quest or something they need help on)."
Why is sync important for this? Because if there is not a tool to help with this it then becomes a balancing game. One friend or another or myself will have to specifically stop playing at times in order to keep this dynamic going (ensure that all of us remain the same level). This is not an acceptable cost, you want people to want to play the game and not feel like they have to stop playing to actually play with friends.
"I want it because it brings more variety to the leveling experience where if I spent the last 2 days leveling in the same spot I can go somewhere else for a change of pace."
Why is sync important for this? Because at any given level there are a finite number of potential camps that you can take advantage of for your level range. While in theory there could be tons and tons of spots for this per level range it is unlikely and impractical to have so many (especially for an pretty small project like pantheon). Use of this tool effectively multiplies the number of places you can go at your level range with it expanding more and more the higher you level (Just as a hypothetical example, lets say there are 3 places at level 10-15, 3 at 15-20 and 3 at 20-25. At any of those ranges you only have 3 spots, but with this tool at 15 you have 6 potential camps and at 20 you have 9).
"I want it because it is a tool that lets me continue the same adventures I had in the leveling experience at higher/max level and will smooth out the leveling experience over all (instead of short times or long times looking for people it will be more even accross the board)."
This one is fairly self explainatory, if you do not have such a tool you cannot go and have a camp in a level 25 spot at level 50 without starting over with a new character. You certainly will have more spikey party forming times if you are limited to only people +- 1 or 2 levels from you. I know from experience that certain ranges are always more active than others. Having a tool like this will make finding a group much more uniform throughout the leveling experience.
All of that pretty much also falls into what one gains from the system, but other than that the use of the tool is not there to reward. You would get nothing in addition to what you normally would doing the same thing at the level you are synced to.
100% opposed to mentoring or level syncing or what ever you call it
No need to respond to this post as nothing you say will ever change my mind
Hate the system, always have always will
And even if they were to implament it I would in no way ever partake of it
(and yes I played Rift and EQ2 which both had mentoring)
Mephiles said:Hieromonk said:
Don't acuse me of such things. I read thoroughly, each thread I respond in..!
Perhaps you missed the point of my post, or perhaps it went over your head...? I was politely forcing you to confront the fact that Final Fantasy is not EverQuest, or EverQuest2 or Vanguard. And that even though gameplay seemed similiar, the game mechanics are not. Begs, why do you need a mentor mechanic..?
And.. why can't you do those things with a friend, while not mentoring? Why does this added "mentor" mechanic come into play.. what do Each gain from being mentored, or mentee...?
Explain plz. (ie: look inward..)
If you had read it you should have known the answer to some of your own questions.
In regards to final fantasy xi not being everquest (strong similarity), everquest 2 (not so much), and vanguard (somewhere in between) first off the mechanics actually were pretty similar for ffxi and everquest. Just to give a few examples, group leveling (you pretty much could not level solo outside of level 10, you could stretch it but it got harder and slower the longer you tried), vertical leveling system that also had skill progression (weapon skill was very important as it determined base attack and accuracy ratings), rare/incredibly long spawn time open world bosses (these would take anywhere from 1 hour to days to spawn with a couple extremely long exceptions), no quest leveling at all, open world dungeons (again this is just to name a few). I am aware they are not the same game, it would be silly to think that they are but they are certainly of the same type (and this is important to establish here because many would be quick to show you the door thinking you aren't looking for this kind of game).
Having said that, Pantheon too is not everquest, everquest 2 or vanguard so why should it matter that final fantasy 11 isn't one of those? Also 2 of those also offered "mentoring" mechanics so if we are going to go by what is there it still has just as much right to be at the table.
I already answered your silly question about why I need it. If you didn't get it, need is a silly qualification because we don't need pretty much anything. We don't need crafting but from what I recall you certainly want that. Want is what really matters here and I have given you reasons why I want it which again you seem to have not read because many of those directly rely upon the system to accomplish.
Let me go ahead and break those down for why a level sync system is important for them:
"I want it because it means I will actually be able to play and interact with friends I make in the game (as stated earlier in the thread I will be coming into the game solo) instead of just being support (or at least be able to play with them more reliably instead of once in a while if they have a difficult quest or something they need help on)."
Why is sync important for this? Because if there is not a tool to help with this it then becomes a balancing game. One friend or another or myself will have to specifically stop playing at times in order to keep this dynamic going (ensure that all of us remain the same level). This is not an acceptable cost, you want people to want to play the game and not feel like they have to stop playing to actually play with friends.
"I want it because it brings more variety to the leveling experience where if I spent the last 2 days leveling in the same spot I can go somewhere else for a change of pace."
Why is sync important for this? Because at any given level there are a finite number of potential camps that you can take advantage of for your level range. While in theory there could be tons and tons of spots for this per level range it is unlikely and impractical to have so many (especially for an pretty small project like pantheon). Use of this tool effectively multiplies the number of places you can go at your level range with it expanding more and more the higher you level (Just as a hypothetical example, lets say there are 3 places at level 10-15, 3 at 15-20 and 3 at 20-25. At any of those ranges you only have 3 spots, but with this tool at 15 you have 6 potential camps and at 20 you have 9).
"I want it because it is a tool that lets me continue the same adventures I had in the leveling experience at higher/max level and will smooth out the leveling experience over all (instead of short times or long times looking for people it will be more even accross the board)."
This one is fairly self explainatory, if you do not have such a tool you cannot go and have a camp in a level 25 spot at level 50 without starting over with a new character. You certainly will have more spikey party forming times if you are limited to only people +- 1 or 2 levels from you. I know from experience that certain ranges are always more active than others. Having a tool like this will make finding a group much more uniform throughout the leveling experience.
All of that pretty much also falls into what one gains from the system, but other than that the use of the tool is not there to reward. You would get nothing in addition to what you normally would doing the same thing at the level you are synced to.
Bro, we are past all of that. Why regurgitate what you have already said..?
I ask you to think about mentoring and why you need it. Then, when you find the reason within yourself, reflect on how does each Character benefit from mentoring. Once you have that answer... argue it with yourself for a few days and then come back.
Just go read what you wrote.
You make so much fun of the work need, then go on to offer up needy suggestion for mentoring. That prove nothing of why you need Mentoring... and that all of what you said... can still be done (applied) by 2 friends who are not mentered. What does the mechnic provide?
You do understand, if u are lvl 45 and just met a lvl 12 friend.. that helping him, is not spending the next month getting him 10 lvl's.. Helping him, is roleplayig with him and helping with his immediate plight, & sharing knowledge and taking him to certain areas or introducing him to OTHER people his level. Showing him around & what forests are safest to travel in, etc. That is mentoring.
Two People can always go have fun together.
You don't need some in-game "Mentor" mechanic to equalize players, before those two players can play alongside each other.
Hieromonk said:
Bro, we are past all of that. Why regurgitate what you have already said..?
I ask you to think about mentoring and why you need it. Then, when you find the reason within yourself, reflect on how does each Character benefit from mentoring. Once you have that answer... argue it with yourself for a few days and then come back.
Just go read what you wrote.
You make so much fun of the work need, then go on to offer up needy suggestion for mentoring. That prove nothing of why you need Mentoring... and that all of what you said... can still be done (applied) by 2 friends who are not mentered. What does the mechnic provide?
You do understand, if u are lvl 45 and just met a lvl 12 friend.. that helping him, is not spending the next month getting him 10 lvl's.. Helping him, is roleplayig with him and helping with his immediate plight, & sharing knowledge and taking him to certain areas or introducing him to OTHER people his level. Showing him around & what forests are safest to travel in, etc. That is mentoring.
Two People can always go have fun together.
You don't need some in-game "Mentor" mechanic to equalize players, before those two players can play alongside each other.
How about you read what you said, because you have said it 3 times now and yet somehow don't get that I am responding to it.
Just so you don't manage to miss it again let me quote it specifically for you : "I ask you to think about mentoring and why you need it."
I have thought about it and I have given my response on the matter. I don't get your rediculous, self centered backwards thinking because you keep saying I for whatever reason need proof that I need this system when I have already stated several times I don't need it but that it provides a service that enhances the game in several meaninful ways which I have listed. I have explained why the mentoring mechanic is important and why attempting to reach the same goals without it is insufficient. As I had already said, you need nothing not one feature any one of us could want in this game is a need so asking for someone to prove a need is inherently backwards.
"You do understand, if u are lvl 45 and just met a lvl 12 friend.. that helping him, is not spending the next month getting him 10 lvl's.. Helping him, is roleplayig with him and helping with his immediate plight, & sharing knowledge and taking him to certain areas or introducing him to OTHER people his level. Showing him around & what forests are safest to travel in, etc. That is mentoring."
And how is grouping up with them NOT helping? That aside I didn't list "helping" as a reason did I? As said, I am not familiar with the "mentoring" from games like everquest 2 and vanguard which seem to have a slightly different intent from the level sync feature in ffxi (in ffxi they offered a different mentoring system which was exactly what you said, it tagged people willing to offer advice and assistance to others).
"Two People can always go have fun together.
You don't need some in-game "Mentor" mechanic to equalize players, before those two players can play alongside each other."
And adding a level sycn mechanic adds another dimension for players to have fun together sooo ? Especially for a game where leveling is going to be such a significant portion of it (which you most certainly will not be able to do alongside each other without a buch of extra shackles or without direct interaction) it seems silly to ignore that giant gap in ability to play together.
At the end of the day I have given pleanty of reasons to have this system and all you have done is said "bro, why do you need it?", compelling argument on your part. Why don't you think on it for a while and come back when you have a reason you need it to not be in the game.
Just reiterating how much I despise mentoring it's a bad fix to a problem that shouldn't exist. Make content that I can do with a large level gap. Create a meaningful way for me to assist and/or play with a lower level character without just reverting my character into a weak moron. I loved placing damage shields on noobs, don't take that away. One of the most memorable moments I had in EQ was helping my druid friend with his epic. At lv 30 I was able to assist a lv 50 druid. These type of moments made me love EQ. If anything, I think there needs to be less emphasis on leveling. I don't think the power difference between 30-50 should be as great as games make it. Maybe scale it so the greater advancements come early. Kind of like how I pay my mortgage interest :(.