Dullahan said:So its less immersion breaking to suddenly become weak and forget your knowledge of combat than to find a creature in the same place you found it before, or to essentially call a trained animal to ride.
Not sure if serious.
I'm totally serious and why I said immersion is a bad argument. What might breaking immersion to you is not the same as breaking immersion to me.
Mekada said:Dullahan said:So its less immersion breaking to suddenly become weak and forget your knowledge of combat than to find a creature in the same place you found it before, or to essentially call a trained animal to ride.
Not sure if serious.
I'm totally serious and why I said immersion is a bad argument. What might breaking immersion to you is not the same as breaking immersion to me.
I agree with Mekada. Wouldn't "levels" by their definition be immersion breaking? How do I know I am level 50 and that mob over there is level 45. Just arbitrary numbers added to a game to show power progression.
Aggelos said:Mekada said:Dullahan said:So its less immersion breaking to suddenly become weak and forget your knowledge of combat than to find a creature in the same place you found it before, or to essentially call a trained animal to ride.
Not sure if serious.
I'm totally serious and why I said immersion is a bad argument. What might breaking immersion to you is not the same as breaking immersion to me.
I agree with Mekada. Wouldn't "levels" by their definition be immersion breaking? How do I know I am level 50 and that mob over there is level 45. Just arbitrary numbers added to a game to show power progression.
So you can just suddenly become less powerful and then suddenly revert? What about your items? Suddenly your Jade Mace isn't 9/18? It "scales"? Yuck. This is exactly what I was talking about above, using "it's magic" as an excuse to do anything is the "bad argument" to me. There are necessary game mechanics, like binding to a respawn point because this is a game and you can die over and over again. This is not a necessary mechanic and should not have "it's magic" thrown at it to cater to people who want it. My $.02.
There were lots of ways to interact with lower level characters in EQ. Buffing, porting, giving hand me downs, escorting them to the bottom of lower guk and then gating out and leaving them behind. Lots of fun things to do without resorting to a hacky mechanic.
Dreconic said:I felt EQ2's mentor system did pretty good. You were slightly overpowered but not to the point you could just plow through everything, more like a twinked lvl 20 then an OP level 20.
Really it all comes down to balance. If done right, it could be great in a game where grouping will be so important. Once the initial rush levels it leaves the lower level people harder and harder to level up and find groups. Having a well thought and balanced mentor system would really help that out.
The first time I tried EQ2 I was working my way into the first dungeon. I recruited a few people and it was slow going. Then someone invited a high level that mentored down. Within 30 minutes we had completely obliterated the dungeon. I uninstalled the game that night.
Mekada said:Dullahan said:So its less immersion breaking to suddenly become weak and forget your knowledge of combat than to find a creature in the same place you found it before, or to essentially call a trained animal to ride.
Not sure if serious.
I'm totally serious and why I said immersion is a bad argument. What might breaking immersion to you is not the same as breaking immersion to me.
Its really not, if you've ever done any writing, acting or game development. Yes, is does vary person to person to some degree, yet suspension of disbelief is an art form. There are actual methods and rules that have been concocted to create what we refer to as immersion. So while you can pretend all day that you a special snowflake and there are no "norms" because exceptions overthrow the rule, back in reality, most people are willing to believe or accept certain things for the sake of a story, while other things they will not.
In other words, immersion is a great argument except in your mind, where apparently immersion is completely arbitrary. Thankfully it isn't to everyone else.
Dreconic said:I felt EQ2's mentor system did pretty good. You were slightly overpowered but not to the point you could just plow through everything, more like a twinked lvl 20 then an OP level 20.
Yeah, if I had to choose a mentor system, I'd probably go with EQ2's also. The only minor annoyance I remember is your high level skills would still be on your hotbar, and you'd have to go through your lower level spells and redo your hotbar with ones you could cast. And then redo it back when you were done. Something could probably be done with the UI to make that more convienent, like a alternate hotbar so you don't have to remove your actual-level spells (like when a rogue goes stealth in WoW and gets the new hotbar). I'm still anti-mentoring, but I'd be more lenient on that subject than I would be of others (anti-fast travel, pro-corpse runs for example).
How would mentoring be handled with twinking though - a situation would seem weird where a lvl 50 mentors down to a lvl 20 group, and a lvl 20 player in that group is twinked with some lvl 40 gear. The lvl 20 twink would now be considerably more powerful than the lvl 50 who's scaled down to lvl 20? I don't know, that just doesn't seem right.
In addition to other things mentioned how high levels could help low levels without mentoring, one could sit outside the group and kill off the mob for them after they've done >50% damage. I'd do that with my druid - damage shield a tank, root a mob out of control, nuke it down after they'd done enough damage, pull for them sometimes, etc. Still shooting the breeze with the group as if I was a part of it.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that, if there was a mentoring system, I wouldn't want any benefits like XP bonus for the low level....I don't want ANY xp bonus for anything in this game. No need to encourage people to rush. And I wouldn't want the high level that's mentored down to be any more powerful than the people he's mentored down to. It just seems cheap.... bah, easiest thing is to just not have mentoring at all in this game ;)
De-leveling for mentoring just seems like a poor mechanic. Leveling itself seems like an odd and out-dated mechanic to me.
I'm waiting for a skill and item level based system that allows for anyone to group with anyone (I'm waiting for a game with no levels ... I'm a dreamer). Until then ... perhaps that top-tiered warrior wants to learn how to cast a fireball spell ... Why not? I can change jobs IRL. Why can't game characters change jobs? I liked FF;'s system where one character could learn all the classes. Why shouldn't they be able to? That dynamic also allows for multiple classes at multiple levels on the same character. No re-scaling required; just keep one of your classes at the same level as your friend's character. It keeps alt-junkies happily with one character for a longer time, and I think it would keep people grinding away at long-term quests on the same character longer. If we're going to stick with classes and levels, why not let one character do more than one thing?
Dullahan said:Its really not, if you've ever done any writing, acting or game development. Yes, is does vary person to person to some degree, yet suspension of disbelief is an art form. There are actual methods and rules that have been concocted to create what we refer to as immersion. So while you can pretend all day that you a special snowflake and there are no "norms" because exceptions overthrow the rule, back in reality, most people are willing to believe or accept certain things for the sake of a story, while other things they will not.
In other words, immersion is a great argument except in your mind, where apparently immersion is completely arbitrary. Thankfully it isn't to everyone else.
Ah yes, I'm a fool for believing my immersion won't be broken by a mentoring system that could be explained by many different ways in game while you possess infaillible knowledge of what most people are willing to believe or not in a fantasy world. I'm glad we could clear that up...
Krixus said:
So you can just suddenly become less powerful and then suddenly revert? What about your items? Suddenly your Jade Mace isn't 9/18? It "scales"? Yuck. This is exactly what I was talking about above, using "it's magic" as an excuse to do anything is the "bad argument" to me. There are necessary game mechanics, like binding to a respawn point because this is a game and you can die over and over again. This is not a necessary mechanic and should not have "it's magic" thrown at it to cater to people who want it. My $.02.
So... you are saying... as a level 50 character... that if you have a weapon with a speed of 18... that you could not possibly have any idea how to swing it at any other speed than it's maximum speed. You have no idea how to move your arm in a motion slower than the fastest possible speed your weapon can go. The same argument for damage?
That, my friend, is a special kind of "magic."
Mekada said:Dullahan said:Its really not, if you've ever done any writing, acting or game development. Yes, is does vary person to person to some degree, yet suspension of disbelief is an art form. There are actual methods and rules that have been concocted to create what we refer to as immersion. So while you can pretend all day that you a special snowflake and there are no "norms" because exceptions overthrow the rule, back in reality, most people are willing to believe or accept certain things for the sake of a story, while other things they will not.
In other words, immersion is a great argument except in your mind, where apparently immersion is completely arbitrary. Thankfully it isn't to everyone else.
Ah yes, I'm a fool for believing my immersion won't be broken by a mentoring system that could be explained by many different ways in game while you possess infaillible knowledge of what most people are willing to believe or not in a fantasy world. I'm glad we could clear that up...
First, I already said that there are ways to make mentoring a little more palatable. Second, its probably not necessary to move the goal posts and revise what I've said to portray me as the know-it-all antagonist, in the same sentence. Especially coming off two posts where you nonchalantly attempted to dismiss the validity of multiple posters opinions from a position of supposed logical authority.
The point was the viability of arguing in favor of realism within a fantasy world versus accepting unnecessary and/or unrealistic mechanics which run contrary to established conventions merely for the sake of convenience; and its perfectly valid even if you don't agree.
I can go either way as long as it is done right... but there has to be both sides....otherwise..............
Hate mentoring systems. It wasn't a huge issue when the concept was introducted so to me it always seemed like a solution looking for a problem. I never had that much trouble finding ways to help lower level players without grouping with them. And I've always had a few alts at different levels.
Not a fan of mentoring, be it leveling up or leveling down to meet said content with said player. I have friends that would probably benefit from this system, but it has also never stopped them from coping and catching up. There is a max level and we all get there in the end so leveling up isnt really a problem, leveling down to help people due to lack of players is a real problem I can understand it, but it just does not sit well in my gut.
If, such a system had to be put in for whatever reason. I'd want to see the players scaling down to be on par or below par with the players they are playing with. It defeats the point when someone is scaled down and yet they still blast through everything like a gentle stroll through the park.
Usually if I have a friend that wants help leveling, I will roll an alt, catch the alt up and help them out with the alt. I mean after all if your having to be deleveled to help them, you probably have enough time to make an alt and help out, if you are in such a way inclined. I may not enjoy the alt I roll, but I'm not making an alt for enjoyment in that situation I'm doing it to help a friend.
Edit: Spelling.
Guys, there is no right or wrong person in these threads. All of us have our own ideas and each is just as important as the other persons.
I don't like mentoring, that doesn't mean I am Wrong for that. Some like it, they aren't wrong either.
People act like if you are levl 50, you can't help a low level friend or group. What about buffing and healing from outside the group.
I used to do that all the time with my 50 cleric back in early EQ1 days when 50 was the max level.
I would hang in EC tunnel and watch auction channel, and shout that I was giving free buffs, heals, and cures.
No need to argue here guys. We are all allowed to like or not like something.
Medjai said:Guys, there is no right or wrong person in these threads. All of us have our own ideas and each is just as important as the other persons.
I don't like mentoring, that doesn't mean I am Wrong for that. Some like it, they aren't wrong either.
People act like if you are levl 50, you can't help a low level friend or group. What about buffing and healing from outside the group.
I used to do that all the time with my 50 cleric back in early EQ1 days when 50 was the max level.
I would hang in EC tunnel and watch auction channel, and shout that I was giving free buffs, heals, and cures.
No need to argue here guys. We are all allowed to like or not like something.
It straight up doesn't fit with this game.
Krixus said:Medjai said:Guys, there is no right or wrong person in these threads. All of us have our own ideas and each is just as important as the other persons.
I don't like mentoring, that doesn't mean I am Wrong for that. Some like it, they aren't wrong either.
People act like if you are levl 50, you can't help a low level friend or group. What about buffing and healing from outside the group.
I used to do that all the time with my 50 cleric back in early EQ1 days when 50 was the max level.
I would hang in EC tunnel and watch auction channel, and shout that I was giving free buffs, heals, and cures.
No need to argue here guys. We are all allowed to like or not like something.
It straight up doesn't fit with this game.
Thanks for Your opinion. And everyone can have one.
There have already been excellent points and counter-points, so I'll just say that, for my 2cp, I think leveling-down to become a mentor just takes away from the awe factor a player has worked hard to achieve. Showing up in full plate as a cleric and giving lowbies badass buffs made me feel accomplished. Conversely, I also trained spectres on unsuspecting lowbie beach-dwellers if I had a bad day at work. "Taking donations on 96% rezzes at the docks. Will help locate corpse if needed!" Lolz
It boils down to this: do you sacrifice gameplay integrity by offering to help your friends and family with a mentor feature, or do you put your trust in the evolution of the server's population and tell them to find their own group and forge their own path? I vote the latter.
Medjai said:Krixus said:Medjai said:Guys, there is no right or wrong person in these threads. All of us have our own ideas and each is just as important as the other persons.
I don't like mentoring, that doesn't mean I am Wrong for that. Some like it, they aren't wrong either.
People act like if you are levl 50, you can't help a low level friend or group. What about buffing and healing from outside the group.
I used to do that all the time with my 50 cleric back in early EQ1 days when 50 was the max level.
I would hang in EC tunnel and watch auction channel, and shout that I was giving free buffs, heals, and cures.
No need to argue here guys. We are all allowed to like or not like something.
It straight up doesn't fit with this game.
Thanks for Your opinion. And everyone can have one.
Everyone can have one, and ultimately its up to the dev team, but different features can most definitely be right or wrong for Pantheon.
Its not that anyone is wrong for liking mentoring, but I too feel as a fan of Pantheon, EQ and Vanguard, that it just doesn't fit. Things like mentoring and other mechanics that have lead to the streamlined, all-inclusive game design in MMOs, are at odds with the game outlined in Pantheon's tenants and features.
I could go down the list point by point and make a direct comparison, but the short version is that they are bringing back the MMORPG where the player actually has to spend time and effort both learning the game, making friends, and overcoming the dangerous and sometimes harsh world. "Community, challenge, conquest." Naturally, providing players with ways to circumvent or trivialize those things would be antithetical. Allowing high levels to become low levels because someone doesn't want to find people of their level to do something with, definitely falls into the category of "making things easier."
Dullahan said:Everyone can have one, and ultimately its up to the dev team, but different features can most definitely be right or wrong for Pantheon.
Sometimes I feel like I'm following a discussion where someone says "How many people lke the note F sharp," then a bunch of people chip in and say how much they like it while others say they don't like it. As if we're deciding whether F sharp should ve in every song.
Kayd said:Dullahan said:Everyone can have one, and ultimately its up to the dev team, but different features can most definitely be right or wrong for Pantheon.
Sometimes I feel like I'm following a discussion where someone says "How many people lke the note F sharp," then a bunch of people chip in and say how much they like it while others say they don't like it. As if we're deciding whether F sharp should ve in every song.
Ya know who likes F sharp? Newbs. Newbs and Sony.
Kayd said:Sometimes I feel like I'm following a discussion where someone says "How many people lke the note F sharp," then a bunch of people chip in and say how much they like it while others say they don't like it. As if we're deciding whether F sharp should ve in every song.
Aggelos said:I have been searching around the forums and on the FAQ but I couldn’t find anything about mentoring being planned for Pantheon and I was curious what everyone else thought of it.
For those that do not know, games like Rift had a system called Mentoring. It would allow a higher level player to group up with a lower leveled player and choose to scale down to that player so they could adventure together at a similar power level. There were rewards for doing so such as an experience bonus for your lower level friend as well as experience rewards or increased gold drops if you were max level for the mentoring character.
Games like Guild Wars 2 had a similar system in a way except it forced you to be leveled down depending on the zone you were in. This I was not fond of and would like to see a mentoring system like the one in Rift. What about everyone else?
Mentoring is nothing new my friend... EQ2 had mentoring.
The question is: why do you need it?
Then for all the reasons you list (in your mind, or on paper) ask again.. why do you need mentoring... If the answer keeps coming back as "It makes the game easier", then you know you are on the wrong path.
Dullahan said:
Everyone can have one, and ultimately its up to the dev team, but different features can most definitely be right or wrong for Pantheon.
Its not that anyone is wrong for liking mentoring, but I too feel as a fan of Pantheon, EQ and Vanguard, that it just doesn't fit. Things like mentoring and other mechanics that have lead to the streamlined, all-inclusive game design in MMOs, are at odds with the game outlined in Pantheon's tenants and features.
I could go down the list point by point and make a direct comparison, but the short version is that they are bringing back the MMORPG where the player actually has to spend time and effort both learning the game, making friends, and overcoming the dangerous and sometimes harsh world. "Community, challenge, conquest." Naturally, providing players with ways to circumvent or trivialize those things would be antithetical. Allowing high levels to become low levels because someone doesn't want to find people of their level to do something with, definitely falls into the category of "making things easier."
First, green highlight : Could not disagree more. Almost none of the modern streamlined and all inclusive mmos as you put it offer this system because in those games it is completely unnecessary (you level so fast to max there is rarely any need to have to play with lower levels and grouping often isn't useful for much anyway). I see no evidence to support that a system as I would have it (ffxi style level sync where you would be on par with an average geared player of that level) lead to anything of the sort.
Yellow highlight : This system does not change ANY of that. How does it make you not need to find friends, or spend time playing, or have to overcome the world? You still have to get friends to do things, you still need to find people for groups and you still have to face threats at the same relative level.
Red highlight : How is finding someone of a different level "easier" as you put it? Finding people for a group is finding people for a group, its still the same thing, its not anti social like an auto grouping mechanic, it simply allows for a wider potential grouping pool at any given time.
Again, I keep seeing points of personal bias that seem to stem from a particular implimentation of such a system. A level sync system does not mean you would be stronger than other players of the same level, it does not make any content easier, it does not mean it isn't beneficial to make friends, it does not mean you do not play with new people.