Dekaden said:I very much enjoyed Magelo and VGPlayers and that they could be made private if desired. I would prefer external data, but wouldnt' be opposed bringing these statistics in-game as long as it's done correctly. For some reason WoW's gearscore system keeps coming to mind, although I know this likely not what is implied by this question.
As long as we can avoid this hypothetical scenario, I'll be fine with whatever:
Kilsin shouts, "Wild Ends group needs 1 dps, lvl 50 - PST!"
You tell Kilsin, "50 rogue here if you still have room"
Kilsin tells you, "Gearscore?"
You tell Kilsin, "73"
- silence -Kilsin tells the group, "50 rogue, 73 gearscore ok?"
TheTank tells the group, "too low, we should try to get someone with a minimum of 75 gearscore."
Kilsin tells the group, "ok ill keep looking"Kilsin shouts, "Wild Ends group needs 1 dps, lvl 50 - PST!"
you tell Kilsin, "???"Now, I could be the most skilled rogue in the game, but my "gearscore" has disqualified me. My worth has been measured, judgement has been cast, and I'm not tall enough to ride the roller coaster. They feel they're doing what's best for the group, but in reality they're passing on a very skilled player. I hate hate hate this system, and I hope you do too. Please keep this out of Pantheon, it doesn't do anyone any good. I'm positive this is not what was implied, but I had to get it off my chest.
I'm all for stats about my character and server/global leader boards as long we're careful about how we're compiling and presenting the data. If this does come to fruition, I'd also like the option to make my profile/data private or anonymous.
That is exactly the opposite of what this site would be used for my friend, as I have explained in my OP and on numerous other posts here and on FB it is not a site to compete or judge others on ranks or scores for gear/skill, it is just fluff info about your character and you can set it to private if you like.
Skill should be judged by your skill/ability in-game, not by numbers on gear as they are never accurate considering how many people get boosted/padded to much higher levels than they deserve to be at by skilled players (we all know someone who got the best gear in game due to others dragging them through but is in fact the worst at their role) ;)
Leaderboards:
Some of it's harmless. Funny that when EQ2 was doing number of mobs killed it was all Chinese farmers lol.
I liked EQ Players. When we played warriors in a raid guild my friend always wanted to be top in HP so he farmed all the HP augs. I always wanted top AC so I was always 5 or 6 down from his #1 spot. But our clerics liked me better.
When EQ was more popular group geared players typically never showed up on the leaderboards. I think this is a shame because it creates a divide between groupers and raiders. I once had my 100% group geared mage show up on the leaderboards and I liked seeing him there and working him up the ranks. But this was on a lightly populated server later on and the top, say, 20 spots were the raiders.
Getting your name on the "Discoveries" wasnt that great. Made for some nasty gameplay upon the launch of new expansions.
But I think ways to distinguish yourself from other players is mostly good. It introduces the competition element. You dont have to look at the rankings if you dont want to. If everyone has the exact same armor set, it doesnt matter, does it? But if there are ways we can customize our characters to our gameplay style, you can distinguish yourself from other players in meaningful ways.
While I've agreed with you in the past with alot of things Kilsin, this I don't agree with.
The problem I have with leaderboards is that it promotes Epeen-ness and Elitism... both which are never a good thing. It can seperate the server into "classfications of players" even if it just for fluff.. it'll have a negative affect on the social side of things. I wouldn't add it.. but that's my view on it. It's meant to be a social game, not a numbers game. :)
I have no problem with having your character off-line for other to see. Or having others inspect your Character off-line.
I have a massive problem with a Leaderboard though.. because it uses stats and figures that don't matter one bit, to how that character plays, or uses his abilities & spells. (ie: Biggest nuke = an artifical number).. did that wizard target a lvl 1 snake, or was it during a raid and he casted a fireball at a water mob..?
Leaderboards are artificial limits.. it doesn't show the players who stopped the most to help others, or those who saved people lives, or help find corpses...etc. The poeople who end up on "Laderboards" typically are not leaders.
If you are good, have top gear.. you will be known in the taverns, pubs and cities. If you are nothing in-game, you should'nt be someone outside of the game, because you have a stat. Why Visionary Realm is even worried about tracking and reporting "leaders" is beyond me. Seems a tad off base from an adult community such as this.
Hieromonk said:Why Visionary Realm is even worried about tracking and reporting "leaders" is beyond me. Seems a tad off base from an adult community such as this.
It is an interactive question to engage the community on and get their opinion (like all of my CM questions that I post twice a week and have done so for quite some time now), it is CM content, it has nothing to do with Pantheon's development, I didn't think it was necessary to preface every general question with "We are not considering this, so don't worry everyone...." as I would have thought the adult community would be smart enough to figure it out for themselves that it is just discussion on some interesting and popular topics. ;)
If I wanted official feedback I would post in an official capacity and request it specifically, like I have done in the past. These questions are just for fun to interact with each other and get to know everyone better, as I would like to grow and develop the community as the community manager. The communities opinion is important to me and I like to know where people stand on certain topics, it's a simple as that mate.
Kilsin said:Hieromonk said:Why Visionary Realm is even worried about tracking and reporting "leaders" is beyond me. Seems a tad off base from an adult community such as this.
It is an interactive question to engage the community on and get their opinion (like all of my CM questions that I post twice a week and have done so for quite some time now), it is CM content, it has nothing to do with Pantheon's development, I didn't think it was necessary to preface every general question with "We are not considering this, so don't worry everyone...." as I would have thought the adult community would be smart enough to figure it out for themselves that it is just discussion on some interesting and popular topics. ;)
If I wanted official feedback I would post in an official capacity and request it specifically, like I have done in the past. These questions are just for fun to interact with each other and get to know everyone better, as I would like to grow and develop the community as the community manager. The communities opinion is important to me and I like to know where people stand on certain topics, it's a simple as that mate.
Glad to see you activlity getting feedback. God I can't wait for this game.
I really like leaderboards. I remember the VG one used to have cool things where it would take a screenshot when you levelled certain levels, it was fun to look back on who you were grouped with and where you were when you dinged 20 et cetera :) I was a quester in EQ2, think 25th in the world ( Talormane )but the character was only made on the first TLE in 2015 so there are over 1000 quests he can never do that are no longer in game.
splitpawthanos said:I really like leaderboards. I remember the VG one used to have cool things where it would take a screenshot when you levelled certain levels, it was fun to look back on who you were grouped with and where you were when you dinged 20 et cetera :) I was a quester in EQ2, think 25th in the world ( Talormane )but the character was only made on the first TLE in 2015 so there are over 1000 quests he can never do that are no longer in game.
Unfortunately that "feature" was improperly implemented in VG and would routinely crash raids. Especially when it was a server first.
The guild I was in was routinely getting world firsts and having everyone crash right before loot is to be handed out was not a very fun thing.
I was one of the few that had switched to using an SSD (first gen.) and apparently that would save me as my entire raid group would CTD.
Kilsin said:How do you feel about in-game or external leader boards for games like MMORPGs that track kills, deaths, biggest server damage recorded, time without dying, hours played etc? :)
Edit: Similar to VGPlayers and I believe EQ2 Players is a similar site to VGs old one, just fluff stats, character information, crafting gear and info, faction stats, guild stats and some server wide fluff stats like total kills, total deaths, hours played etc. to check out and pass the time when you are out of game.
Problem with all such automated systems is invariably some hacker characters post ridiculous numbers that never get validated, or cleared. So they end up being useless.
Kilsin said:How do you feel about in-game or external leader boards for games like MMORPGs that track kills, deaths, biggest server damage recorded, time without dying, hours played etc? :)
Edit: Similar to VGPlayers and I believe EQ2 Players is a similar site to VGs old one, just fluff stats, character information, crafting gear and info, faction stats, guild stats and some server wide fluff stats like total kills, total deaths, hours played etc. to check out and pass the time when you are out of game.
I have no opinion either way. I can see why some people like it and some don't.
It's funny that people constantly talk about how reputation is going to matter so much in this game, but then get turned away from a leaderboard. Like, what?
If you're the best rogue on the server, you'll be known as the best rogue on the server to most people that matter. If group A decides to select stabbymcstabstab because he has the highesdt backstab number over you... oh well. I'm sure the other 99% of the server would rather have you.
Leaderboards are a fun way to make content that you have done 25 times fun.
My guild in wow would regularly let me (a holy pally) try to solo heal farm content to top the leaderboards. It made things fun, it allowed other healers to dps, which didn't happen often, and it made a fight that I could do in my sleep something that required perfect cool down management and judgement.
I agree that gearscore should not be an issue, but even in EQ you would have people asking clerics how much mana they had, or asking warriors their hp/ac.
In a way, sites tracking statistics and publishing them can quickly aim to a loss of privacy. While sometimes it can be genuine and unintended, the battle.net armory associated with wowprogress made alts a total transparency during years due to the match of very specifics achievements with the same registered date.
While the option to hide global achievements was later added, it was too late and it was an option you had to tick after logging the character at least once. In a game like wow where people rename/racechange every moon cycle, it made tracking people an easy NSA job.
In a game like Pantheon where I hope, race changes and namechanges won't be a thing, it could really bring some long term hurt.
I know a ladder will be something unavoidable, especially as people will manage to make parser, combat logs and upload them on sites (Something that was barely done in 1999+), I hope it will never lead to a pre discrimination of players due to "bad performances logged". People should at least have a try before beeing considered bad, even if they are, and even then they can learn.
League tables that attempt to score you on being a 'good player' will be simply wrong. It's not scorable.
League tables that attempt to score your gear will be quite wrong and lead to people using it to include/exclude.
League tables that compare raw stats will lead to people exhibiting behaviours that aren't conducive to normal effective play just to rise in the rankings.
Especially in a game where the main aim is to have a good group social experience, ranking will be counterproductive.
I used to love the leaderboards and player stats pages like EQ2players while I was playing EQ2.
I have seen a lot of people who are negative to some of these types of leaderboards on this forum. I personally liked using them and actually found them beneficial to my play in game. I personally would use them to compare myself, to see if there were areas to improve. I was a very competitive player and was always trying to improve my character.
As far as highest damage rankings, I also found these very useful. If you noticed that someone was hitting harder then you, you might look up there stats or even send them a tell in game to look for advice on how to improve. I personally like when these leaderboards can be broken down by class, server, level, and things like that.
To the argument that these type of leaderboards can be used to exclude people from group due to gear or damage are true... but this will happen anyway. Lets say a group is shouting for a replacement and they are doing a hard dungeon and are looking for a tank with a certain armor class. Yes they might use leaderboards to search that player up really fast to make sure they can survive the area. Yet, even without the leaderboards, this will become evident if that player were to join the group. If that player gets to the group and doesn't have the gear needed for that encounter, it just wasted everyone time. Not to mention if its anything like the original EQ, you will gain a reputation on the server. People will eventually avoid or look to invite certain people based on skill, but gear will always play a factor when doing some encounters.
It is also very easy for people who dont like Leaderboards to just not use them.
Deathstroke said:I used to love the leaderboards and player stats pages like EQ2players while I was playing EQ2.
I have seen a lot of people who are negative to some of these types of leaderboards on this forum. I personally liked using them and actually found them beneficial to my play in game. I personally would use them to compare myself, to see if there were areas to improve. I was a very competitive player and was always trying to improve my character.
As far as highest damage rankings, I also found these very useful. If you noticed that someone was hitting harder then you, you might look up there stats or even send them a tell in game to look for advice on how to improve. I personally like when these leaderboards can be broken down by class, server, level, and things like that.
To the argument that these type of leaderboards can be used to exclude people from group due to gear or damage are true... but this will happen anyway. Lets say a group is shouting for a replacement and they are doing a hard dungeon and are looking for a tank with a certain armor class. Yes they might use leaderboards to search that player up really fast to make sure they can survive the area. Yet, even without the leaderboards, this will become evident if that player were to join the group. If that player gets to the group and doesn't have the gear needed for that encounter, it just wasted everyone time. Not to mention if its anything like the original EQ, you will gain a reputation on the server. People will eventually avoid or look to invite certain people based on skill, but gear will always play a factor when doing some encounters.
It is also very easy for people who dont like Leaderboards to just not use them.
I wish it was really true. But it's not exactly.
While I agree on the personnal criticizing that leaderboards/dpsmeter can offer : getting yourself to improvve watching and checking what others do better than yourself,
I won't agree on the gearcheck thing. Practically people aren't looking for a tight success. They want security, they want easyness. They won't try with a tank that has "just the minimal gear" required, and will prefer to opt for overgeared tanks casually helping/passing time. I hope it's a phenomenom that won't happen much in pantheon but I know it will, to some extent. In the "now norm" instanced raids, players aren't looking for a tank that will progress and improve on an encounter, but for a tank that already cleaned the encounter and is either better geared, or at least a safe choice to waste minimal time.
However, I hope that the lowest population and absence of cross server play will tighten people's choice, in wow's actual scheme, you can get whatever replacement you want in a second because people are nothing and mean nothing.
Taking a look at Jim Lee's stream, the boss at first was seemingly undoable by their team. Somehow, they didn't say "Well let's avoid it, it's a loss of time and we will never beat him". They tried, took a different scenario than the intended (two groups merging) and got him down.
I think, the lack of choice in player/classes avaliable at a moment (distant region, etc...) might solve the issue by itself. Will you sit 2 hours spamming "Group LF tank AC 200 minimal" or will you take that AC170 tank that is super motivated and might just allow you to progress slower, but will bring you fond memories and tricky challenges to overcome his weakness ?
That reminds me when I levelled a warrior in EQ1 late late era. I was only 57 and went to plane of valor, yellow/red con mobs were crushing me and healers were sometimes sweating like hell keeping me alive between the strong hits and procs of mobs. They would have prefered a 60+ tank, but they had none avaliable and such, I could show that I would do my job even as a frail flower, and everyone got exp instead of just one mob kite every 10 min.
Porygon said:It's funny that people constantly talk about how reputation is going to matter so much in this game, but then get turned away from a leaderboard. Like, what?
If you're the best rogue on the server, you'll be known as the best rogue on the server to most people that matter. If group A decides to select stabbymcstabstab because he has the highesdt backstab number over you... oh well. I'm sure the other 99% of the server would rather have you.
Leaderboards are a fun way to make content that you have done 25 times fun.
My guild in wow would regularly let me (a holy pally) try to solo heal farm content to top the leaderboards. It made things fun, it allowed other healers to dps, which didn't happen often, and it made a fight that I could do in my sleep something that required perfect cool down management and judgement.
I agree that gearscore should not be an issue, but even in EQ you would have people asking clerics how much mana they had, or asking warriors their hp/ac.
While this is an extremely necro'd thread... I'd like to respond to this one:
When this community talks about reputation, it's not about things like leaderboards that show "I'm better than you" - it's about how well you fit in the community AS a community. That is, do you show respect to others, do you stay in line with how the community as a whole "behaves", etc...
Leaderboards are nice - but they really are a separate issue than community reputation.
:)
Kilsin said:How do you feel about in-game or external leader boards for games like MMORPGs that track kills, deaths, biggest server damage recorded, time without dying, hours played etc? :)
Edit: Similar to VGPlayers and I believe EQ2 Players is a similar site to VGs old one, just fluff stats, character information, crafting gear and info, faction stats, guild stats and some server wide fluff stats like total kills, total deaths, hours played etc. to check out and pass the time when you are out of game.
I am not a fan of these kinds of things for a PvE based game. However...we all know there will be fan sites that compile all the data of who killed what raid boss first and who has the shiniest loot. I don't expect the devs at VR to bother with this stuff, the players will do it. Raid guilds will measure their you know whats haha...
Wandidar said:Porygon said:It's funny that people constantly talk about how reputation is going to matter so much in this game, but then get turned away from a leaderboard. Like, what?
If you're the best rogue on the server, you'll be known as the best rogue on the server to most people that matter. If group A decides to select stabbymcstabstab because he has the highesdt backstab number over you... oh well. I'm sure the other 99% of the server would rather have you.
Leaderboards are a fun way to make content that you have done 25 times fun.
My guild in wow would regularly let me (a holy pally) try to solo heal farm content to top the leaderboards. It made things fun, it allowed other healers to dps, which didn't happen often, and it made a fight that I could do in my sleep something that required perfect cool down management and judgement.
I agree that gearscore should not be an issue, but even in EQ you would have people asking clerics how much mana they had, or asking warriors their hp/ac.
While this is an extremely necro'd thread... I'd like to respond to this one:
When this community talks about reputation, it's not about things like leaderboards that show "I'm better than you" - it's about how well you fit in the community AS a community. That is, do you show respect to others, do you stay in line with how the community as a whole "behaves", etc...
Leaderboards are nice - but they really are a separate issue than community reputation.
:)
I'm very confused by your response. It seems you either didn't read my actual post, or vastly misunderstood the point of it.
I'm saying exactly what you just said. Reputation is going to mean more to 95% of the people playing than a leaderboard would. So what's the big deal if a random player doesn't invite you because you didn't have the highest nuke ever.
You're going to get people that want to maximize their time in game and will quickly learn what an efficient group looks like. This would result in a similar issue...
But again, reputation will matter more to most of the people... so leaderboards shouldn't affect your gameplay.
But they are fun.
Active members of the playerbase always know things like : who was the first to max lvl for each class...or who was the first on the server to attain an ultra rare raid drop. I don't find it necessary to keep lists or for the game to tell you about these type of accomplishments.
I think we all know about VRs stance on "end game". These type of leaderboards tend to encourage people to rush to acquire a leaderboard spot in the same way some people rush to "end game". It seems to go against a lot of the general community that VR is trying to promote in favor of a "me first" type of mindset imho.
philo said:Active members of the playerbase always know things like : who was the first to max lvl for each class...or who was the first on the server to attain an ultra rare raid drop. I don't find it necessary to keep lists or for the game to tell you about these type of accomplishments.
I think we all know about VRs stance on "end game". These type of leaderboards tend to encourage people to rush to acquire a leaderboard spot in the same way some people rush to "end game". It seems to go against a lot of the general community that VR is trying to promote in favor of a "me first" type of mindset imho.
I agree with this 100%
I would also add that tools like Damage Meters begin to contribute to a toxic environment that I for one would like to avoid. When people start focusing on competing for a bigger number than everyone else in the game is when you start sculpting the elitist mentality which ultimately leads to the exclusion of the casual player. The extent of number comparing should be within game chat and would be something like "WOW! I just hit that boss for 900 damage!" and they should feel excited about it... as opposed to logging onto a webpage later that day to see that someone else hit the same boss for 39,000 damage... and they also have never died, and got to max level in half the time or whatever else would be listed there...
Obviously speculation, but that is how I feel about it.
*edit: Had I known from month 1 of EQ that my ShadowKnight's damage was literally 1/3 of the other melees regardless of how good my gear was (aside from the Paladin) I probably would have rerolled immediately and missed out on some very fun end game performance of the SHD.
Knowing your DMG capabilities can help - and be fun.
